Why We Love To Watch A Hero Fall | On Writing

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[@HelloFutureMe]

I HAVE BROUGHT PEACE, FREEDOM, JUSTICE, AND SECURITY TO MY NEW DISCORD EMPIRE which you can find here discord.gg/vvMBpZa6Xh and tell me your favourite fallen hero! ~ Tim

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

Darth Vader!

[@simondean5227]

Please talk about Lost bro, it has easily some of the best character writing in TV history imo

[@pieterfaes6263]

I now imagine the wizard from Monty Python's Holy Grail going full Anakin. That's...an image...

[@fluffy_fluffinity]

YOUR new discord empire?! Tim, my allegiance is to the republic, to DEMOCRACY!

[@animeman8203]

The situation between Anakin and Katara are two different things. With Katara her mother was killed years ago and not in front of her eyes. Not to mention she was a little girl who couldn't do anything. With Anakin he had been tortured by visions of his mother dying for the past month and by the time he gets there he sees her dying in his arms and he realizes that if he had just disobeyed his orders sooner, she'd be alive. He wasn't some 8-year-old, he was 19 and strong and if he had just gone sooner, she'd be alive. Not to mention that Tusken Raiders aren't Human, but monsters that have been causing pain, misery and death for millennia and enjoyed it.

[@WhatIfBrigade]

One of the best aspects of Kitara's mercy is Zuko made absolutely no effort to intervene. He was absolutely willing to watch her kill one of his countrymen. When she did not, despite having every reason to do so strengthened Zuko's character arc.

[@Xenozfan2]

It's not always someone's actions that tell us who they are. Inaction can speak loudly too. "My hands are for healing...but that doesn't mean I have to heal you."

[@renansilveira2013]

imagine seeing her fucking bloodbending and then not being able to kill someone

[@GuilotineGirl]

Griffith’s betrayal of Guts and the Band of the Hawk is particularly is particularly well done because it’s completely in character for Griffith. His desire for power and the lengths he would go to to obtain it were well established; even his heroism was motivated by the power it granted him. He doesn’t change, his betrayal is merely him abandoning all pretenses and being his purest self.

[@LuisSierra42]

It was so messed up, very few times i've felt so bad for fictional characters than I felt for Guts and Casca after the eclipse

[@KennethLyVideography]

I do think Griffith, for a while liked to believe himself being something of a good person, not having true selfawareness about himself. It's during the Eclipse when he self rationalises "It's fine to sacrifice my friends, they would have died anyways for me" we finally get see his true nature in it's rawest form.

[@ProjektBurn]

​@KennethLyVideography agreed. And more specifically, it's the reasoning that if he didn't follow thru with his goals, then the deaths of everyone before that moment would be meaningless since it was the pile of their dead bodies and the achievements they made for him that acted as the bridge between him as a poor street urchin playing games in the city alley and him as king his own kingdom. The fact he achieves this goal, becoming something of an antichrist figure for the reader while being a christ-like figure for the people of Midland, was done so well. It's all written so well, with the depths of what it means to be human explored all throughout. And last, its the subtext of what makes Griffith a monster before the eclipse the candidate for the 5th angel of the Godhand. The way his goals come before the people around him. The lives of those he inspires being nothing but tools for him to aquire his desires. And on the flip, the "Black Swordsman" is our anti-hero and not the monster he portrays because his goals ARE the people around him, and the objects around that are the tools to protect them and their dreams. (Dragon Slayer, Hand Cannon, Child that the evil elves are chasing in the village 😅 at the start of the best fairy tale-like arc in the entire series, etc) It's that line between selfishness vs selflessness that defines what makes a monster of men. Where one makes men into monsters for the sake of themselves, the other is a provocation of men to do monstrous things for the sake of others. It's like poetry. It rhymes. 😅 (Edited for grammar)

[@jaieregilmore971]

How about Artorias the abysswalker.

[@Pyre]

​​@@ProjektBurn adding to this beautiful point: Griffith only ended up in the position he was in just before the Eclipse because he lost sight of this. Every action he took beforehand was laser-focused and ruthless, but none of it was cruelty for its own sake. "People think ruthless is just 'mean', but that's wrong" and all. Then he loses Guts, the person he is closest to, at the same time as being handed his first martial loss. The first time we see his carefully-constructed persona crack. And he can't take it. He does something stupid and unplanned (or at least, earlier than he'd planned it), and the consequences are catastrophic. *Everything else that he is* gets ripped away because of it. And even at the end, he has that brief moment of seeing the quiet life that could be. And he hesitates. "People don't understand the word ruthless. They think it means "mean." It's not about being mean. It's about seeing the bright, clear line that leads from A to B. The line that goes from motive to means. Beginning to end. It's about seeing that bright, clear line and not caring about anything but the beautiful fact that you can see the solution. Not caring about anything else but the perfection of it."

[@monicasodergren752]

Clones Wars depiction of Anakin, really drives home how the infrastructure he is in sets him up to fall. Tales of the Jedi depiction of Count Dooku was also something that came to mind when you were talking about losing faith in a system with Harvey Dent.

[@39Lords]

Count Dooku became my favorite Star Wars Character overnight once watching Tales of the Jedi.

[@Scuzzlebutt142]

Yeah, the Clone Wars really builds on how events/the Jedi/Palpatine pushed Anakin to fall. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith were kinda just a pair of really bad weeks.

[@koltonkulis4763]

This is one of the reasons I love The Clone Wars so much. They show us many instances of Anakin being a noble and deeply caring character. It makes his fall that much greater.

[@Verezen]

I agree, Clone Wars showed how Anakin was at many times hindered by the system, and added to the mistrust between him and the Jedi

[@StonetheDestroyer42]

I know Heath Ledger's Joker is what most people talk about from The Dark Knight, but Aaron Eckhart's Harvey Dent was a standout performance, too. There's an argument to make that it was even better. He really nailed that role.

[@LuisSierra42]

He was really good, without him or Gordon TDK would not have been what it is

[@casualcraftman1599]

The Legend of Korra suffered from Nick studios sabotaging the production literally forbidding them addressing the issues Amon exploited.

[@HelloFutureMe]

The real fallen hero is Nickelodeon. ~ Tim

[@casualcraftman1599]

@@HelloFutureMe I'm Glad my Mom Died made me not want to watch Dan Schneider shows for a long, long time. And now Quiet on a set makes me want to not watch any nick shows now. I can't even finish my Avatar: The Last Airbender re-watch right now.

[@CinematicGalaxy]

@@casualcraftman1599 Schneider didn't have any involvement in Avatar.

[@casualcraftman1599]

@@CinematicGalaxy I know and I'm so glad he didn't have involvement because I dread what he would have done with Toph seeing with her feet.

[@tiph3802]

​@casualcraftman1599 bro. Why?

[@nathancarter8239]

That _Captain America_ panel actually led into the _Secret Empire_ event, and that was an interesting exploration if what makes Captain America who he is. You see, Captain America had been replaced by a doppelganger from a universe where he'd joined Hydra, in a world where Hydra won. The whole event was about Hydra!Cap (or Stevil, as some people call him) holding away over people and getting the populace and even other heroes to trust him because "It's Captain America... He wouldn't lead us astray, right?" Because Stevil had all the qualities that made Captain America great; he was charismatic, firm in his beliefs, relied on and uplifted others. But his strengths were rooted in Hydra's fundamental supremacist beliefs, and the culmination of the event was showing that he was ultimately unworthy. The whole event was pointedly reinforcing the lesson from _Batman Begins:_ it's not who you are but what you do that defines you.

[@HelloFutureMe]

This is interesting! I am not a big comics reader so the extra context brings up some fascinating questions. ~ Tim

[@eyesofthecervino3366]

_Stevil!_ That's awesome XD

[@eduardoperezrubio4965]

To the “he wouldn’t lead us astray point” that’s why Deadpool joined the evil side, and why Sam Wilson fought John walker. Walker heard evil cap and thought “It’s cap he wouldn’t manipulate me!”

[@AndyG94]

OSP Red points this in her Paragon Trope talk

[@USBearForce]

Oswald Chambers was a British Army chaplain during the Great War, and in one of his sermons he spoke this line: "An unguarded strength is a double weakness". In context, he was instructing his listeners that a Christian's worst sins and failures often come not their known areas of weakness, but in something that's in their strongest moral area, because that's when human nature leads us to be inattentive and overconfident. Regardless of your worldview or religious beliefs, I think this is a really good idea to keep in mind when writing fallen heroes as well. Their greatest strength *IS* their potentially greatest weakness. Yes, Palpatine appealed to Anakin's arrogance and desire for power when he tempted him to the Dark Side, but appealing to Anakin's vices was the side dish. The main course was twisting Anakin's virtues of self-sacrifice and devotion against him.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

Aristotle said something like this as well if I recall.

[@KazKindred613]

Oh for sure. I find some of the most compelling villains are essentially good people who go too far.

[@PetrosofSparta]

Big Boss aka Naked Snake from the Metal Gear series is probably my favourite example of the fallen hero. A man betrayed by his country, forced to kill his mentor to protect their image, later betrayed by his closest friend and inevitably finds himself at odds with his own cloned son, Solid Snake.

[@jo.comics]

Oh hell yeah, totally, man I hadn't thought of Snake in ages!

[@miamor2624]

It's interesting to note how everyone in Cipher follows pretty much the same path, culminating in the creation of the Patriots. In a way, Zero and Big Boss dragged everyone to hell with them. Venom Snake may be the greatest examples of that.

[@danielpayne1597]

Is Big Boss even a fallen hero? He sure went through the ringer like any of the fallen heroes mentioned, but I had thought he more just becomes disillusioned with patriotism and sought to build his own free society for those like him. Metal Gear storylines are complicated, so maybe I missed the detail on him being actually evil, but I figure he was more neutral than anything.

[@PetrosofSparta]

@@danielpayne1597 Sort of, it really becomes a matter of perspective. But, old spoilers for a 9 year and 15 year olds games but: - he becomes a founding member of the patriots which led to to the major events - threatens the world with Nukes and metal gears - kidnapping a bunch of scientists including the one with the solution to the world energy crisis. - everything he did to Venom Snake Also, really everyone thinks they’re a hero of their own story. Big Boss (and venom) are the antagonists of the first two metal gear games.

[@danielpayne1597]

@@PetrosofSparta Thanks, I haven't played MGS2 and just watched my friend complete MGS4 so I missed the detail of founding the Patriots.

[@lazyhobbit9955]

The Doctor (Eccleston) being told by a Dalek “you are a good Dalek” was one hell of a moment for me, the juxtaposition of the emphasis on the “good” or the “Dalek” highlights how far the doctor has fallen into anger and rage. Edit: misspelled Dalek, I accept the judgement

[@macewindu5195]

I don’t want to say it

[@saiphrivas1437]

​@@macewindu5195 I will. DALEK.

[@lazyhobbit9955]

I am ashamed, indeed it is Dalek and I am the stupid 😂

[@tiph3802]

That one made a cold chill run down my spine.

[@Elfos64]

@@lazyhobbit9955 And then a different Dalek said the same thing to 12 (Peter Capaldi).

[@johnf7332]

“It’s easy to be a saint in paradise!” - Deep Space 9, Episode 21 of Season 2 I love Stark Trek’s DS9 because it takes people from this enlightened society “where all the problems have been solved” and puts them in desperate situations with no clear or right answer. The characters need to make decisions - and then live with the consequences of those decisions. One of the main characters in DS9 identifies as a former terrorist. She is absolutely haunted by some of the people she has killed and attacks that she participated in… but she does not regret those decisions.

[@marocat4749]

Sloan is apearently one, the section 31 guy. And when they go in his mind, they see he kinda is a fallen hero twisted. And the opposite garak who is a broken spy plagued by his conciousness that actually becomes a better person.

[@LucasDavis-mp1tm]

New Jessie Gender video about that - very good

[@myself2noone]

I hate that line. I don't like this word, but it reeks of privilege. When rich people have sympathy for poor people it's almost always the ones they actually interact with. Who are likely to be criminals. Then they "feel bad about it" because we can't expect the poor dumb animals to know any better./s Despite the fact that most poor people are not criminals, and criminals mostly harm poor people. You know what's easier than being a Saint in paradise? Paying for you're moral superiority with another person's credit card.

[@Scuzzlebutt142]

@@myself2noone It does, and it makes sense in context of what the show is talking about, but that's not what it's trying to say. How, outside of Earth and Federation Starships, where Treks perspective has been mostly, the universe is simply made up of people trying to live, and have to make compromises to get by, and sometimes make wrong or bad decisions and live with the consequences. One of the things I liked about 90's Trek was it often didn't tell you what the moral of the story was supposed to be, it gave you one side, the other, and let you make a decision, which may be a different one that characters made. And yes, Kira was unabashedly a Terrorist, I think it was easier to do at the time as Terrorism wasn't an "American" Problem, it was an overseas thing. I like that they explored what that meant, in terms she knows she killed innocents, non-combatants, committed murder, and the repercussions of that.

[@3dchick]

Such a great show! Great episode, too. And part of that, with Dukat starting to be a "risen villain" for a while, before falling agsin fits this perfectly. ❤❤❤

[@supsup335]

Grifiths fall was so shocking because at every stage of it, there was no surprise. The man you meet at the start of thr journey, and the broken man kneeling in the lake are the same person with the same wants, ambitions and goals. And when he says the words, you still see him as the same person and only now realize that yes, this was something he was always capable of. It just took this circumstance for him to go this one step further.

[@pyeitme508]

P.S. Title was called: "Why Heroes Fall | On Writing".

[@randomrise1st72]

How have you written the comment 2 days ago???

[@randomrey6568]

huh

[@HelloFutureMe]

@@randomrise1st72 Special patron privileges ;)

[@pyeitme508]

@@HelloFutureMe YES! XD

[@lucasarcanjodedao1209]

​@@HelloFutureMe the joys of capitalism

[@casualcraftman1599]

It's ironic that the most destructive Avatar villains are former friends of the Avatar. Jianzhu being Kuruk Earth Bender mentor corrupting the Earth Kingdom and being Kyoshi inspiration for the Dal Li. Then there's Sozin being Roku childhood friend starting the 100 year war and genocide of the dragons and air nomads.

[@TheShanicpower]

I can’t get over how good Jianzhu is as a character. My favourite villain from the Avatar franchise, and one of my favourites period. The fact that he feels completely detestable while still being immensely tragic, and even being right in many ways make him so compelling.

[@jamie8703]

I've never struggled to write a fallen hero mostly because I come from a family of deeply terrible people but I digress. 1. Start with a trait that would make you fall in love with the person (kindness, bravery, competence) 2. Now make that trait the driving force of their worst action, ideally a mistake (a kind person helps the enemy, a brave person leads trusted people to doom, a competent person creates a plan that Is used to subjugate others) 3. Now turn that trait into a weapon (kindness gets you into a lot of places, bravery can be intimidating, competence for strategy) 4. Now use that weapon to harm others how the fallen hero was harmed It's a cycle of abuse call on what you know

[@Zunawe]

It doesn't parallel your atla example, but the scene where Anakin executes Dooku is great. Much better than his murder of the tuskens. We've already been shown Anakin's tendencies to act on his instincts, desire for control, and dissatisfaction with restraints put upon him by the systems around him. He thinks he knows best. When he disarms Dooku, and there's no question that the fight is over, he's ready to take him prisoner to be judged by the senate. He's still willing to put his faith in democracy and the justice system, even despite its red tape. But it's Palpatine urging him to take control that pushes him over the edge. Telling Anakin that he should trust his own judgement. That Dooku deserves death, and Anakin knows it, and that turning him over to the justice system would only be costly and dangerous by comparison. And even once he carries out the execution, he expresses that he feels wrong about it. But the only person around him in the moment he can look to for wisdom is Palpatine. It's one of the better examples of seeing Anakin tipped toward his authoritarianism in a way that feels believable. And it gives us an example of how Palpatine manipulated him into Vader, but only by playing into aspects of Anakin that were already there. Makes it all the more cathartic to see Vader reject Palpatine at the end of the original trilogy.

[@HelloFutureMe]

Funnily enough, this example was originally in the script! ~ Tim

[@imperialphoenix1229]

14:40 id argue that, considering the timing and context of the event it's not simply because he wanted power, but because he has nothing left other than to seek power from his perspective. Guts was the only person he ever seemed to connect to and when he left Griffith showed emotions he hadn't been demonstrated to have before. And he was a totally different person from that point onward, immediately hitting a self-destructive spiral. Taking actions that he knew would get him imprisoned, killed or worse and was subsequently tortured for his crimes leaving him more than a little unstable

[@HelloFutureMe]

This is fair! There's a lot of context and detail to exactly how and why he ended up that way. He definitely slipped a lot before the ultimate fall. ~ Tim

[@QuinoLising]

@@HelloFutureMe Griffith is literally disabled and becomes incapable of speech or feeding himself, and it's a taunt that the one who once spread good and hope to others is now a pathetic, weak, and useless maggot that needs others to feed him because of his torture which removed vital muscles, and the worst taunt was that his helmet, a symbol of the Hawk of freedom and light in a dark time, is now a metal cage his head is trapped in, a mockery of what he once was. Power wasn't his endgame, it was also self-worth and capabilities to struggle. No offense, but I believe you misunderstood how Griffith was really portrayed. Guts goes through an incredible amount of suffering and pain, but he is a struggler, and Guts was pained while he went through it, but despite it all, he's still himself, and he becomes a better person despite his misery. Griffith goes through physical misery which leaves him bereft of self-worth and he basically has nothing of which he felt gave him worth. And Berserk shows Griffith couldn't deal with that struggle, and in lieu of that, he took the easy way out.

[@HelloFutureMe]

@@QuinoLising I definitely had to simplify, and I think your reading is totally valid! I was not able to study the manga as closely as I would have liked. There seems to be a real diversity of interpretations in the comments. ~ Tim

[@QuinoLising]

@@HelloFutureMe Yeah! Don't worry, I just believe that the intelligence in the late Miura's writing is fascinating because on the surface it COMPLETELY looks one dimensional until you delve deeper. I will admit, the manga is incredibly flawed especially near the beginning (the author was a teenager when he started) and it is typical, boring, generic edgy violence until the story matures alongside its author, and you begin to see it grow into something beautiful. The human struggle, and overcoming it. It becomes so beautiful, but I can't overlook its flaws from its beginning and I enjoy discussing it with other people who love stories!

[@Bardic_Knowledge]

The first Fallen Hero that popped into my head was Sephiroth, who was technically pushed into falling. His only friends, Genesis and Angeal, start falling apart because of experiments performed on them, and Sephiroth decides that he'll retire after One Last MIssion. So his creator, Hojo, engineers things on that mission to cause Sephiroth to snap, turning him into the Big Bad he's known for being.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

Mine was Anakin because I'm generic.

[@edmontonboy99]

“In spite of everything you’ve done for them eventually they will hate you… why bother?” - Green Goblin

[@JanbluTheDerg]

On an unrelated note, it's great to see the Percy Jackson show now as B-roll. We've finally made it!

[@MasterKaiju]

14:40 Everyone else chimed in with their interpretations already, but if anything it is a testament to Kentaro Miura's writing that we've got such a complex nuanced character whose actions have different interpretations of what Griffith's true nature actually is, if he is truly a fallen hero, or if he is just always predisposed to go down this path regardless. I suppose its only fair to chime in with my own then xP My own interpretation ties into what I feel is the arc words uttered by the Blacksmith Godo at the beginning of the Conviction Arc: "Don't Abandon what you can't replace." Griffith has all of fate backing him from before he was ever born, he was predestined to be the absolute, the untouchable messiah, the chosen hero who shall bring a utopian kingdom to bare uniting all of humanity. He's a master manipulator and brutally cunning pragmatist who if you were to place him in Westeros could probably outgame the best players in the Game of Thrones even without that. However, Griffith is someone who... can't let go of things. If he can't have something, he'll make it his. The same ambition and claim for his dream he extends to those around him. He's controlling, possessive, and like a good cult leader, a narcissist who convinces himself what he's doing is for a greater dream, but cannot escape the pettyness of his own humanity. Even after sacrificing everyone around him at his lowest moment, upon his rebirth he makes a "new" "BETTER" Band of the Falcon/Hawk with characters who fit the role of the band he once had, but 'superior'. From the obligatory woman commander who is obsessively loyal to him (but she has psychic powers now!) to a brutal one man army who carries out his dirty work with brutal effeciency and keeps close to him at all times, and others. But they don't fill the hole he intentionally rended into himself. Meanwhile, Guts was left to put together back to pieces, to grieve, to fuck up and ultimately... try to move on and protect the one things he had left, let himself be vulnerable and build together a new found family of misfits. Guts struggled backslid and fought for every inch of his happiness even with a curse of destined doom branded onto him and was on the track of winning that hard earned happiness and closure wheres Griffith... could not let that go. Guts and Caska he could never control and so his heinous acts to them in particular laid the foundations for what may well be his eventual doom. Despite supposedly being emotionally detached and a built up to be the desired messiah king of mankind, he still tries to replace what he once had but it just patches over a void of what he abandoned. Which makes him such a good foil for the protagonists as he **can't** let go. He can't just let them live in peace, he can't just let them walk. Guts meanwhile had to learn to abandon his revenge, his obsession, so he could finally heal... but like an abuser, Griffith always finds a way back in... creating a compelling narrative of abuse, loss, grief, trauma and healing all through the actions of the central trio of characters... God, I could ramble for hours about this, I love this story so, so much... Anyways, my Berserk-fan brainrot aside. Excellent video and excellent coverage of one of my favorite villainous tropes.

[@dbrooke3629]

I recall someone making the fantastic observation that in the beginning of the first John Wick, we are entering the world midway through John's redemption arc. He's made a life for himself and by all accounts he was a good husband. But he falls quickly like returning to a bad habit.

[@michaelramon2411]

RWBY has a good example of a hero who falls. From the beginning of the series, he is prone to responding to problems by proposing an aggressive, violent response, only to back down or soften when his friends and allies criticize it or point out potential complications. He's a good man at heart, but he has this flaw, which is well-managed. The path to his flaw does not so much change his personality as it strips away all of the guardrails built up around himself to protect him from that impulsivity he has. Finally, he gets hit with a big crisis and there is no one else around him who will tell him 'no', and the result is chilling.

[@hudsonbakke8836]

One of the best tropes for fallen heroes IMO is when their contact and conflict with the main hero exposes them to the main hero's ideas/values/beliefs, and that ends up changing the fallen hero, usually leading to them turning around and making the right choice in the end. Both Percy Jackson and Star Wars have fallen heroes which foil the main hero. Anakin/Darth Vader foils Luke, and Luke Castellan foils Percy. Throughout both stories, we get hints at each character's true motivations, and we start to see cracks in their tough facade. This is especially the case in Percy Jackson, where Luke continually shows apparent pain and regret at the positions he's in, and later we learn he even tried to get out of it and run away with Annabeth. Finally, at the end of the stories, both of these fallen heroes end up making the right choice which saves the main hero. Luke uses Annabeth's dagger to kill himself, and thus kill Kronos in the process, and Darth Vader kills the Emperor while Luke is helpless. These stories aren't just one-dimensional good guy-turned-bad arcs. They show depth and true change. They show how characters can be redeemed even from their own bad choices, and that once someone has "fallen" that doesn't necessarily mean they're always going to be evil. Inside every person is the capacity to do good, and sometimes all people need is a reminder of who they are.

[@Vritzien]

This video really helped me recalibrate how I’ve been thinking of my story’s fallen heroes-especially the part on how it can manifest in paragons! My series’ dual protagonist’s (a mother and surrogate daughter character) roles as fallen heroes are as commentary on how inter-generational trauma can lead to good people unintentionally reinforcing/replicating oppressive hierarchical societies. Also your concept of “Scenes of Maximal Agency” really really resonates with me. Keep up the fantastic work!!

[@flibbernodgets7018]

5:13 I always think its interesting when this bit comes up in discussions of unpopular leaders. They might have been good people, just not suited to the challenges they faced and that's a compelling tragedy especially when all they're remembered for is a failure they probably feel they didn't deserve.

[@na.meless]

Suguro Geto, Anakin, Sasuke, Luke castellan and even maybe Zuko are all very compelling fallen heroes turned vilains and sometimes... reformed

[@fishymacaroon6]

Is Sasuke a fallen hero, though? His very earliest stated goal, even as a child, is to gain power to kill Itachi. A fratricidal revenge quest isn't exactly the start of a hero's journey.

[@kagetaz8534]

@@fishymacaroon6that’s a really great point. But I think an argument can be made for him being a fallen hero as well. He wasn’t born wanting revenge. He actually started off really innocent and wanted nothing more than a closer relationship with his brother. It wasn’t until he saw Itachi kill the clan and their parents that he planned revenge

[@fishymacaroon6]

@@kagetaz8534 I suppose, but that's largely true of every villain ever. Almost none of them are born evil.

[@rrl9399]

@@fishymacaroon6 but there is also the fact that at a point he was starting to diminish his pursuit of revenge and started to become a genuine member of team 7 (even almost dying to save naruto) and in his missions he did genuinely good

[@HelloFutureMe]

A lot of people have brought up Sasuke. I need to see where they're from! ~ Tim

[@Kenophobia]

Without spoiling anything - Attack on Titan would have been perfect for this video.

[@tobiasweber2517]

the moment you said being good is hard, I thought of one of my favourite avatar quotes "its easy to do nothing but its hard to forgive" while different from the question of good and bad/ hero or villainous it touches on the same difficulty of the path of goodness or forgivness. especially because its in the context of Kataras revenge... GOD I FCKING LOVE AVATAR :) edit: ofcourse you meantion the scene aswell :)

[@chadhenderson2922]

Did anybody else expect the “It’s complicated” music to pop up when he said “being a hero is hard”?

[@katsimotas594]

Really enjoyed your comparison of Anakin and Katara ( with hints to Anakin’s obvious similarities to Aang as well). I love seeing how deeply Star Wars clearly influenced avatar considering they are my two favorite pieces of media. Another great one I would love to hear your take on is Netflix’s shera and the princesses of power. Glimmer is a great fallen hero and parallels with Catra who is one of my favorite characters of all time so well. Love your content as always!

[@Zforce911]

Making this whole video without one mention of Killmonger is crazy work 😮

[@__mischief__]

Fantastic video Tim!! I’m always so fascinated with these types of vids and I hope to be able to incorporate your awesome advice in my own book. Thank you!

[@WhenIsItUs]

Another great video! I love the contrast of the two agency scenes. One aspect of difference I noticed between them is that Katara has someone with her. That many of Avatar's character journeys are not done entirely alone, whereas there is much loneliness to Anakin's path. That horrible, tradition masculine path to grind it out alone. He has no strong support system that follows him, mainly because the Jedi masters really dropped the ball lol

[@christiangreff5764]

The emotion supression part of the Jedi code maps with parts of traditional masculinity but in stark contrast to traditional masculine ideals they ALSO exend this to the emotions of anger and hate. So while a traditional masculine upbringing wouldn't have helped any ("let your hate flow through you" is famously Sith talk), the problem in this case was another, similarily toxic mind set: Anti-Emotion/Attachement cultism, some form of pseudo-wise "let go of your emotions" mysticism. The Jedi run a "learning to supress your anger is the same as learning to manage it" mindset, which is plain wrong and at least as bad as traditional masculinities "live out your anger" teachings. Also, all of that probably isn't helped by Anakin, who was born and raised on Tatooine till the age of 9, very likely being indoctrinated to hate Tusken, since the settlers on that planet have been at a pseudo-warlike state with them since the very beginning (the Tusken being the indigenous people of that planet; though after generations of settlement both sides can be argued to be people of Tatooine, the people born on that planet definitely don't see themselfs as 'strangers' or having somewhere else they could return to). So we have an ethnically charged component where Anakin only knows of Tusken as marauding murders and plunderers (which, to be fair, is even true to a high degree; the Tusken have, maybe in reaction to the settlers, developed an extremely Xenophobic culture and religiosity and attack them where they can; peace is not to be had by either side of this conflict).

[@mechanarwhal7830]

One of my favourite things is watching these videos and applying the methods of analysis to whatever I happen to be reading/watching at that moment. So glad I found this channel and so grateful for all the time and thought you spend putting these videos together.

[@SilverRoseStoriesandSongs]

Very well articulated as always. I absolutely adore your work and am so thankful for what you do. Without your advice and insight, I doubt I’d have ever started writing. Now my first novel is over halfway written and I’m so happy and excited to see what the future holds ❤

[@storytime7408]

Ive been watching you for a couple of years here on KZbin, and while I know you make stuff aimed at writers, I actually find you very insightful when I make plot points and enemies for the D&D campaigns I run. Thank you for another great vid

[@joshwi4193]

6:45 You should definitely talk about Malazan Book of the Fallen. Phenomenal series.

[@EoinTheWriter]

Would love to see a video on Malazan! Currently on book 7 and am loving it so far.

[@HelloFutureMe]

One day! ~ Tim

[@grimreaper9174]

Man I got so excited when you mentioned malazan you should definitely do a video on it I love that series

[@mandygibson5601]

My writing has been going. I've been working on this novel for going on 4 years now, and I'm FINALLY about a third of the way through the first rewrite. This video touches down on one of my main characters and was extremely helpful! Thank you!😊

[@gameofharmony]

It’s hard to imagine a better Fallen Hero story than Attack on Titan

[@gabrielt.2734]

Love your videos and appreciate them so much. Thank you :)

[@UncommonCommander]

I always watch your videos anyway, but your thumbnail game is on point with this one.

[@Something-ln8pi]

Love these types of videos!

[@jordanvickaryous-remenda876]

Love your content, thanks!

[@megangilbert3112]

Thanks for this, I had a face palm moment listening to your discussion, because you gave me the insight I was missing about Niragi from Alice in Borderland. I've spent a lot of time trying to understand his character and what makes people either hate his guts or cheer him on. It was the missing piece of the puzzle for me to realize that Niragi is the fallen hero character and also the "what the main character could have been" guy, since they both desire the same things; to survive, and to win. I feel really happy now haha because I knew I was right that Niragi wasn't actually the villian, even though it might appear that he was intended to be the bad guy. And it pretty complicated to realize his type because there is another character in the series that represents "what the hero could have become" but if he'd chosen another route. I love the series so much I need to re-watch it now.

[@IlluminaudioOG]

Great video as always ❤

[@angelabby2379]

Katniss from Hunger Games was probably labelled as Fallen Hero by the people even though she was the real Hero

[@WhatIfBrigade]

Only the other tributes understood her. They shielded her from the consequences. But ordinary people had no idea what caused her to act.

[@angelabby2379]

@@WhatIfBrigade yes i kinda loved this kinda unique situation and i felt angry! if they only knew! Katniss was always their mockingjay

[@JoULove]

Eh we don't know what people thought of her, do we? Wasn't she explained (at her trial) to be what she was: a many-times-over broken, grieving girl (not yet an adult)... If people want to *judge* that, frankly I wouldn't give anything for their judgement.

[@cameroncrouch5843]

I am so excited about this video cuz I am currently writing a book series about a hero falling

[@gin1924]

Heaven Official's Blessing is a really good example of this hero vs fallen hero dynamic. It's been handled so damn well. Still upset about how underrated that novel is.

[@esbeng.s.a9761]

Berserk the manga start of in the end of The Black Swordmans arc spoiling that Griffith ends up as the dark god. And in the next arc young Griffith also shows a lot of cultleader tendens like how his old mercenary worships him as a god. He sold his body to get a better deal from a noble to get closer to his dream, and betrays that same noble the movement he can get something better. He orders assassination left and right one people standing in his way. Antagonist are scared because he feel overnatural as he don't have to hired who he truly is. Zord even warn Guts that Griffith will do anything for power. And Guts might see Griffith as a friend but their relasionship only started when Griffith beat Guts and made him his. Also after losing Guts he goes to Charlet the princesse just to feel like he is still in control. A move that resolts in him being tortured for a year and most of his men dead and the rest end up as outlaws. Griffith has always been a wolf in sheep cloathing the only diffence now is that he don't need to hired who is truly is from Guts

[@HelloFutureMe]

Man, everyone has such different interpretations of his character in the comments! Thanks for sharing this. ~ Tim

[@yusaki8064]

There is a manga called Undead Unluck who has who I would consider a lot of fallen heroes. For example, there is a character whose power is that he can steal the powers of those who view him as a threat. So he made friends with the main group in the series and then betrayed them and did many horrible things, even attempting to nuke Tokyo. So he could steal the usage of their powers to be able to defeat the big bad guy (God) on his own. He wanted to shoulder all the burden so he did terrible things, made himself into a villain. But the thing that’s great about this series is, just as we see heroes fall. We get to see them rise once more.

[@maxmuss4969]

“Why do we fall Master Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up again.”

[@kingding6701]

Thank you for bringing up Malazan Book of the Fallen!!

[@TheUglyGoblin]

Aw gosh- I love everything you do. This was such a satisfying video and you are such an inspiration :3 I've started writing snippets for a D&D book based on my own 10 year old homebrew fantasy world, over on my Patreon. Would be such a dream to finish my first ever book! I just wanted to comment though to tell you how much I appreciate you and what you do. Been watching your videos for years :,3

[@lillianwolfe8314]

Been listening to your videos for years, and still love your analyses and summaries! Rock on, Tim! While even the writers said they wish they had made some changes, the Fallen Hero that's stuck the most with me is Terra from Teen Titans: “I think the thing people don’t realize about “Terra” is: she wasn’t cut out to be a super-hero. She had super-powers, but she wasn’t cut out for that.” -Glen Murakami, “Five Seasons of Murakanime.”

[@StepBaum]

Great breakdown :)

[@MrDrewsopher]

"I hope you're doing well" Oh God no, but I'm still trucking. Speaking of, thanks for reminding me that i still have to make that therapist appointment. On a serious note, I appreciate all your videos. I'm not writing anything, but I really do like seeing all the mechanics of why stories work or don't.

[@ASpaceOstrich]

This was a very good episode. I've been doing some worldbuilding (though never cutting anything, so not in a particularly productive manner) but I've been awful at coming up with characters or plots. I had a plotline in mind but its very "cool" rather than emotionally resonant. Its about ideas rather than characters. But in thinking about fallen heroes and showing characters with the same ideals as your heroes, but in a villainous role due to circumstance, I have the inklings of something more to it. The story that sparked the world I want to one day create was about the effects of experiences on your life. It was to have a legendary figure with no memory of their past deeds, and have two copies of this figure created. And to see how these two copies diverge due to different circumstances. Eventually leading them to conflict with one another. It would explore the idea of which one is the real one. With my intention actually being that it doesn't matter. But this was all academic. There was no actual character tied to this, just the conflict on paper. Now I can think about putting a real character to this conflict. And have an actual method to making them come into conflict while still feeling like they were the same person. Make them the same as the hero, with the same ideals and instincts, and I can explore how things that we see as positive are not always positive. Which is a criticism I've had towards a lot of common moral stances in my life and one I feel is woefully unrepresented in media. Or at least poorly represented. I suppose they still aren't characters yet, but the academic idea of what I want to tell now has a much finer shape. And I know the sorts of traits I want to criticise. I've mentioened before that the hero archetype is actually quite toxic, and it would be interesting to tell that story.

[@libbyhyett6625]

Thank you Timmy

[@donovan802]

I was about to rewatch some of your On Writing stuff while I work on school projects, and now I have something new!! Thanks Tim!

[@eos_aurora]

The side eye I gave this thumbnail I stg Good video

[@petrsevcik5044]

Now I realy want to hear/watch the discusion on Malazan

[@the_cringe_nerd]

GRIFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITH!!!!

[@cruidinnecluda1711]

I am glad Lanre got a mention. He is one of my favourites.

[@corro202]

Awesome video.

[@justhawk9994]

Pls, for the love of god make a video/ video series on malazan there is so much you could talk about and I would love to hear your thoughts

[@mgray8081]

The character Durzo Blint from the Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks is a good example of the phrase “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain.”

[@LightSongFox]

THANK YOU for the Berserk Spoiler callout, you saved me from spoilers gdhdh Also i love your breakdown of this concept, its thought provoking, its a wonderful job of teaching, and I hope to use the information here to better myself and my writing. Thank you 💛

[@spirit5923]

I'm so glad you brought up the doctor who episode. That was some of my favorite writing. Me, as an audience member, wanted him to say "screw the system!" so badly and when he finally did it, I was ecstatic. Then when he had events smack him back in the face, the shock and grief he felt for losing himself and the failure he had to contend with was so powerful. I had to look at these same events and say "I wanted this to happen, and now we all suffer." which made me feel his pain even more.

[@RobSeib]

Tim, I appreciate how you grabbed the fake plant to improve the shot in what appears to be a hotel room. Oh I liked what you had to say too of course! 😄

[@HelloFutureMe]

This is such a hyper specific thing to notice and it is 100% true 😅 the plant was on the opposite side of the room. ~ Tim

[@alcorian8269]

OH MY GOD YOU'VE READ THE KINGKILLER CHRONICLES? i would absolutely love to see a video on this series from you!!

[@chadjones1266]

Thanks again

[@LoremIpsum-ic7nw]

I think Feanor from the Silmarillion is one of the best examples of a Fallen Hero. The most important moment for his character development takes place when the Valar ask him to break his silmarili for the revival of the two trees. They have already been stolen at this point in the story, but for Feanor, who does not know this, it is a decision in which the good and right requires a great sacrifice from him, namely the destruction of his greatest work (Which of course he refuses). The book even explains that the rest of the story might have been different if Feanor had agreed to destroy his gems for the greater good. It is likely that his oath or the kinslaying would never have happened in this case.

[@kaskando]

Oh my god xD I got chills when you mentioned Berserk

[@khango6138]

Regarding the "You and I are alike!" villain speech, i haven't seen an example to the alternative wherein the hero is the one giving the speech trying to convince the villain to change their way. Or maybe Batman has done this to Joker but i dont remember

[@jungtothehuimang]

Scar from FMA:B has to be my favorite anti-hero of all time. He is so well written it's so damn good. Also Stoic from HTTYD, I love his redemption arc as well. Jett from ATLA is also a well fleshed out and very compelling anti-hero and a good foil to Sokka.

[@jakiedark]

Other than waffling on what U am working on, I am more curious what you're working on Tim.

[@michaelkean5969]

What I also love about Griffith betrayal is that he doesn’t just corrupt himself but he Corrupts Guts and Casca, he renders Casca a shell of her former self but the eclipse causes Guts to devolve into a cruel, ruthless and malicious monster who actively loves inflicting pain on those he’s hunting.

[@Wolfiyeethegranddukecerberus17]

Some fallen heroes I love from cartoons include the Nowhere King (Centaurworld), Nox (Wakfu) and Professor Venomous (OK K.O.). But one that truly inspires my writing is King Andrias from Amphibia. He was set up in his youth to be a good person, but pressure from his father and his responsibility as future king made him push away his friends and turned him into an unfeeling monster. It works especially well when he's contrasted with mc Anne, who once didn't know what true friendship was like, but at the end values friendship above all else. I've taken inspiration from the general vibes of Andrias (and Nox) to make my own tragic fallen hero, betrayed by his brother, killed, revived and set on a destructive path of revenge with the Earth as collateral. I'm actually really proud of the story I'm building. Anyways if you've read all this reply "Marcy" or smth idk

[@benlubbers4943]

Marcy but why?

[@Wolfiyeethegranddukecerberus17]

@@benlubbers4943 Why what lol

[@benlubbers4943]

@@Wolfiyeethegranddukecerberus17 why marcy and also will you publish your stuff anywhere?

[@BrilentSubscriber]

I’ll add to this list and this character sticks in my head from the grace of kings is mata zyndu, and the contrast he provides in the story

[@ezraclark7904]

Hooray for Tim

[@strategicgamingwithaacorns2874]

There is a proverb, attributed to West Africa, saying that a child denied affection will burn down the village to feel its warmth. Fallen Heroes are what happens when a protagonist is neglected, and expected to keep working without being cared for.

[@USBearForce]

23:25 Better Star Wars example: Jolee Bindo from "Knights of the Old Republic". When you meet him in-game he's been a hermit on the remote Wookie home world for decades, since the end of the previous war between Jedi and Sith. He's highly critical of Jedi Order's "damnable sense of overcaution" and far from gung-ho about saving the Galactic Republic. Later you learn he became a hermit of his own free will, as means of punishing himself after the Jedi Council chose to forgive him for several serious violations of the Jedi Code that got a lot of good people killed. "They might have forgiven me, but I couldn't forgive myself." It creates a really fascinating dynamic where you can say the system failed him in some ways, but in other ways he also failed the system. It's a subtle way of saying that the Jedi Order might be a flawed institution, but anybody trying to argue that "The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way" and "good is a point of view" is trying to sell you something.

[@beachwitch89]

I think Nimona is a great example of a fallen hero with a great redemption arc

[@twigthetroll9279]

She's not a fallen hero though. She intended to be a villain from the start of the story, and she was never a hero before that.

[@beachwitch89]

@@twigthetroll9279 I would argue that her drive to fit in mixed with her bravery to be true to herself is pretty heroic in its own way. She decided to be a villain after being attacked and shunned

[@twigthetroll9279]

@@beachwitch89 What drive to fit in? And yeah, her insistence on being what she is can be called heroic in a way, and much of her whole thing IS wanting to bring down the institution and the institution is what's evil. But she was never a hero who fell and became evil and then became good again. She was a kid being a kid, not trying to be a hero or a villain, just living her life, and then she was victimized, and then she was hell-bent on the destruction of all that hurt her. And whether *that* was good or evil is a messy, not-black-and-white thing. And either way there was no turnaround from that to something else.

[@beachwitch89]

@@twigthetroll9279 we don't have to agree, concepts are subjective

[@filipvadas7602]

Anakin's fall and becoming Darth Vader is how to do it poorly and really well at the same time lol Based on just the movies, Anakin becoming Vader is insanely rushed and out of left field. But once you factor in the Clone Wars animated series, it makes a *lot* more sense. You see the trust Anakin has in Palpatine, his disregard for the rules and borderline homicidal rage he feels when the people he cares about are threatened. You genuinely get the sense that he's too powerfull and emotional for his own good and that be could easily go down a dark road if not kept in check by those who know him best. Movie Anakin's fall felt like a plot convenience. Clone Wars Anakin's fall felt like an inevitability.

[@kingofhearts3185]

I'll also add in that Anakin also has his trust in the jedi betrayed several times, making his turning to Palpatine their own fault as an organization.

[@rrl9399]

*spoiler for clone wars* not to mention one of the people he loves the most (ahsoka tano) his own pupil is betrayed and renounces the jedi ; not to mention the council has a clear fear and distrust of anakin even when he is on their side and the amount of jedi that turned to the dark side or died

[@thomaswillard6267]

Was it rushed? We get him hinting at those tendencies in the Phantom Menace, he begins to feed into them in Attack of the Clones, and even in RotS it is only rushed if you think it was reaction to Windu's death as opposed to that sealing a transition that had been developing all movie.

[@catsjacinto]

Well, even from the movies alone, he was taken by the Jedi while his mother was left to remain a slave. That alone is fucked up. Then the Jedi would've expected him to just let her die when she was calling for him. He's obssessed with Padme and can't be with her, as per the rules. All the while, we do see how Palpatine is gaining his trust. So I do think his fall, even in the movies alone, is reasonably well done and justified. His relationship with Padme, though, does feel a bit forced. I think it would've been better for him to have found a different girl, and just have a good friendship with Padme. Although, his obssession for 10 years without letting go does very much shine a light at his innability to comply with Jedi values.

[@Red-zh7vq]

It wasn’t poorly done in the movies

[@danceinfinity777]

Mine is Wanda Maximoff from the MCU, I love how they build her up to be a full-fledged villain in Doctor Strange: In the Multiverse of Madness. She was a villain in Avengers: Age of Ultron and now she is a villain once more.

[@suto5704]

Id love to see you talk about better call saul

[@hairywolfman3160]

Also it's worth checking out Cinema Therapy's video on Anakin Skywalker. Let the Bodies hit the floor

[@nicokrasnow1851]

The Dr Who example makes remember how sad the arc "In my Delusions" from "Kubera: One Last God" was.

[@13igp00h]

The Malazan Books of the Fallen is an amazing series 🤙

[@catherinemeno6030]

Maybe a niche pick but Zerxus Ilerez from Exandria Unlimited Calamity is one of my favorite fallen heroes. His fatal flaw was his belief that everyone deserved a second chance, and the kindness he extended toward a demon lord that inevitably led to the apocalypse of his world. Ugh what a good series

[@LennyValentine]

One of my earliest introductions to this concept was Aribeth de Tylmarande from Neverwinter Nights 1. I definitely sympathized.

[@Scrofar]

When I began to write my protagonist as a fallen hero, the path was decided very late into his story. It was around the time he started going to therapy for his trauma (albeit against his will; he'd been arrested for violent tendencies and public vandalism which kickstarted this decision made for him), and he was actually making pretty good progress after a while. He met good people who had his trust, and never breached it or took him for granted. He rekindled past relationships he broke off over trivial things, due to his history of bottled emotions and how it would cause him to either implode or lash out. He even had a decent conversation by chance with his ex-boss for the first time in over a year; the last time they'd spoken, he'd been fired from his job for initiating a physical assault with his co-workers at work. The protagonist had met significant improvement since then... til one day, when mass hysteria overtook his city, he was forced to face his trauma once more... and it was after surviving it a second time that everything truly fell apart for him. In spite of everyone's genuine kindness at therapy, or what he had repaired with his relationships, the protagonist felt a deep nihilism, and he then believed that perhaps compassion was truly a waste of a virtue for as long as the world was out to terrorize him. Then after, as the apocalypse for his city was basically announced, he felt deeply that nothing mattered to him anymore: not his job, not his friendships, or whatever he still loved doing. His new beliefs burdened him so much, however, that he wanted nothing more than to be anyone else but himself. And if harming someone else would separate him from his past moral self, then so be it. This protagonist was very, very, very difficult for me to write. To be honest, I still consider myself a novice at telling a decent story. Even though I should give myself more credit given this was my first time trying to write a fallen hero, I don't think my efforts really stuck the landing. I think one of the reasons why I struggled so hard with this character was because: he was never a hero in the first place. The character never once considered himself one at all, and he never wanted to be. He never dreamed of being a protector or had any ambitions, he just wanted a peaceful life. He was intended to have no valiant qualities: he wasn't selfless, he didn't really go out his way to help others, and although he had close friends, I don't think he would've declared a strict loyalty to them if circumstances had been dire. He had his morals, and he had conventional beliefs on what he considered good and evil, but he never sought out to enact those beliefs. I guess the only thing that would be considered admirable about him was that he tried his best. So... how could I even consider him a "fallen hero" if he didn't really have many virtues to begin with, so that they would alter over time? Maybe a "fallen human" is more like it. Not to mention that I did say I started this decision very late into his story. In retrospect, had this idea come to me earlier, I would've had a better chance at planting the seeds so that his changes could take root more firmly later on, and fully bloom by the final act. The logical solution now is to be easier on my past self for not having the inspiration before (especially since I was a very different person back when I started writing this story), but I still can't ever truly shake off the feeling that it would've helped me a lot now. I would love another opportunity, another chance to write a better fallen hero. A small fear of mine is my aforementioned protagonist being both the first and last one I'll ever write. I'm not sure if I'll ever know if I did his story right, given that I have no plans to publish it, let alone revisit it. I want to say I have the wisdom now, but I'm not as confident in the desire to rework him again, for personal reasons. Yet as greatly as I would love to move on from this story, I can't bring myself to do so without at least trying to resolve some of the writing complications I had. I wrote a whole dang essay, haha. Sorry about that. Thanks for reading if you did though. I guess all I really wanted was to somewhere cement my own experience with writing a fallen hero (or my quite weak attempt at it).

[@bridgetgaudin7841]

I’m sure I can think of a few fallen heroes that are favorites, but I kept on thinking about those characters that seem to be walking a razor’s edge so close to falling. I thought about Darrow especially in Iron Gold where he’s a lot more willing to do questionable things burdened by the weight of his war. He’s trying so hard to accomplish his goal that he’s making mistakes along the way. You can see how from another’s perspective, he’s not a hero anymore despite him not being a villain. I have yet to read Dark Age, but that just what I thought of watching this video.

[@user-lm7zl2vy3q]

Malazan book of the fallen is easily the greatest fantasy series I've ever read. 10 tomes of pure brilliance.

[@lucasblaise11]

'falling with style' -Woody 🤠

[@Glimare]

If you ever get a chance, you should play tales of symphonia. you don't realize it at first, but it is a story of a world where heroes fell thousands of years ago and their fall shaped the world into a post-distopia. And three of them are still alive, dealing with the consequences of their actions: one's the BBEG, one's a secret rebel leader, and the third accidentally brings the new heroes together while going through depression. It's a really good game.

[@LoveLindqvist]

Please talk about the Malazan book of the fallen! It's the most wonderful thing I've ever come across and I have no one to talk to about it