HEMA tournaments, 'real fighting' and context

Hey all! This next video has been in the making for some time, because it required some research. I started to get somewhat annoyed at recurring debates about the sense and nonsense of tournaments, so I decided to see whether the techniques described as 'Ernstenlich' in Lecküchner are in any way suitable for a modern HEMA tournament. Turns out they are, and quite spectacularly so. This also shows that tournaments are a context of their own, and simply expecting things that were designed to work in a historical context, might just work differently nowadays, or not at all. And that doesn't mean those parts of the fight books are pointless.
Fencers: Ronin, Mila, Jem, Nick and Oskar
0:00 Intro
1:24 The controversy
2:23 My attitude towards tournaments
3:30 Tournament artefacts
4:24 Could earnest fighting work in a tournament?
4:55 What even is "real fighting" ?!
5:40 Ernstenlich Fechten in Lecküchner
7:53 Why Ernstfechten theoretically works in tournaments.
8:58 The sparring experiment
10:38 conclusion
Music:
Folk Round by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/... ( • Celtic Fantasy Music -... )
#Messer #Dagger #HEMA #Historical #European #Martial #Arts #Historical #Fencing #Historical #Fencing #Westernmartialarts #Middleages #medieval #Martial #Arts #Martialartist #Instructor #Athlete #Fitness #Fightingfit #Fighter #warriors #knights #Swordplay #machete #technique #Training #lecküchner, #history #historical #research #swordfighting #sparring #context #greatsword #montante #zweihander #knife

[@MrLigonater]

This went deeper than I was expecting. My hypothesis on why Tournament fights or sparring does not often produce the dramatic plays in the fechtbuchs, is that solid fundamentals are good enough to win most fights, most of the time, and the context that requires a more advanced technique instead of a well executed basic one, is rare. It like how most the time, in pro-.ports players score with fairly basic techniques done well, and the one replay worthy backflip kicks, or passes are few and far between, because they are normally not required. Thank you for reminding me to examine the context to the technique, instead of just it’s mechanics.

[@zakremmington6297]

I've always thought that tournaments are really useful for the pressure testing it provides especially since it involves fencing against unfamiliar opponents who may have differing interpretations of the same techniques which is really interesting and useful, they also help promote fitness and athleticism in HEMA which can sometimes be lacking. That being said I do dislike sportification especially the habits that can form when trying to find the meta of a tournaments rule set. I think this can be avoided though by simply not adopting a universal rule set for HEMA tournaments but to vary the rules so we don’t get locked into one way of fencing that is purely optimised for specific rules. I’m also a fan of scoring systems that don’t award points for hitting the opponent but cost points for receiving a hit since it shifts the focus a little bit more to not dying.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Oh yes. A hard agree on all of that. I really enjoy rulesets that take not getting hit into account. Even if it only is using the lowest number of hits against to determine top seed after pools. :)

[@daaaah_whoosh]

These are a lot of the same arguments I've seen thrown around for years, and I'm starting to think they're a bit off the mark. For one thing, about diverse rulesets: I don't think the point is to keep people from optimizing, the point is to get people to optimize in a way that matches the sources, so we must keep updating the rulesets until we find one that does that. As for scoring such that getting hit is bad, so long as we run elimination brackets it doesn't change much, but yes if you just run pools then it can have a big effect on how people fence (assuming you tell them that's how you're scoring things).

[@ashwynnnewkirk]

There was never a more enlightening experience then meeting and sparring with people from different clubs and schools. When it comes the tournaments rules... I agree on detracting points. The most important part of any martial art is the art of not dying. It matters little if your opponent died if you are not there to enjoy the victory.

[@ordinarymodder905]

'Sportification' is inevitable with largescale tournaments existing. Generally, I don't see it as much of a big deal, so long as the rules don't devolve fights into "sword tag". Tournaments are a good way of testing your skill and how well specific arts/manuals hold up against others. I personally come from a reasonably isolated club which doesn't interact with others much. Spars do take place however we don't use a point system, ranking who "won" off who would realistically survive. Sparing this way is still extremely fun for me. It provides an angle which looks at a situation as if both parties actually are going for each other. It also discourages simply charging in to trade hits. Obviously, that's not the only way to conduct and test skills and I think that open tournaments can be very fun. I've always seen HEMA as a martial art more than a sport. However, many martial arts do have sports sides to them. At the end of the day, It doesn't matter too much how you practice or train in HEMA, more than you are having fun and keeping your fitness up. If you want to train for a tournament similar to a sport, go ahead. Same if you want to treat it like a martial art. I don't think either side should attack one another for the way they train. Just wanted to also add that I really enjoy the content. For such a small channel the stuff you put out is really well made. I hope that more people can find your channel :)

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Fully agree with all of that! :D And thanks a lot, I'm happy to hear the effort I put into the videos is visible. :)

[@russmitchellmovement]

Judo experienced this when it went from martial art to sport. Now only a tiny subset of the art is taught, because that's what succeeds in tournaments. And that's fine - there's room in the world for people who want to get very, very good at ernstfechten, and those who want to work their timing and angulation until they can pull off The Beater at speed, regardless of how showboaty it may seem.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I agree strongly! Let's be fair: HEMA is nowhere near to the point that we're going to organise ourselves to only turn people towards olympic level competition. It would require some time to reach that level of professionalism and even then I'm not even sure if the 'research it yourself' core idea of HEMA is even remotely compatible with it. And that means that it's perfectly fine to really go towards either of your examples, or even try to do both.

[@russmitchellmovement]

@@VirtualFechtschule Indeed, the Olympics represents elite sport, and all the good and ill l which comes with it. I respect that, but it's not where I live. (Edit: spelling)

[@2adamast]

I remember judo people saying competition wrestlers were taking over tournaments. I imagine the same aspect can happen with HEMA where olympic fencers align the right skill set for winning HEMA competition.

[@EntropicEcho]

One of the reason I love Lecküchner is the distinction between fighting in earnest, for sport and for fun. I do think it's very important when teaching to give this context, so students know what was meant with a particular technique and they can place it in the appropriate context. I think it's important for HEMA to not overlook these techniques because they were obviously relevant for the times, else they wouldn't have been written down. It's really a shame when I see groups or people only training "to win fights/spars" because that excludes so many cool and fun things. (however, if training only the "deadly" techniques is how people have fun, who am I to judge of course) A fun idea I had when watching your video: It would be fun to do a tournament where only the "for fun" techniques (the sack, the backgammon board, the under-the-legs-crotch-stab etc) would be worth points. :D

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Nice and fully agree! We actually did a Fechtschule tournament, where the bouts were judged based on spectacle. There were loads of butt slaps, through the leg thrusts and an attempt at bagging. :D

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Oh my! I made that tournament sound way spicier than it actually was...

[@EntropicEcho]

@@VirtualFechtschule Hahahaha, that sounds absolutely amazing! Would love to do that sometime.

[@sikestevilmadness]

@@VirtualFechtschule I'd watch this...

[@Cleanpea]

Only fun moves gives points, along with, unkess one gets hit: No points at all for the hitting, itself!?

[@Wraithninja1]

Good thoughts. I appriciate the humble aproach. I wonder if the UFC might give us some modern context. When I first became aware of it in the 00s, old kung fu techniques like fancy head kicks were considered impractical. A favored method of top fighters was simply "ground and pound". However, as the skill and knowledge of the fighters has advanced they have figured out how and when to use old techniques like the head kick. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar can happen for HEMA. Exciting-no?

[@DevonHberman-im6bx]

Yes. It is hilarious to me that people will immediately write a technique off because they can’t do it at their current level of skill and conditioning

[@MikiMaisam]

A tournament with the following scoring system would be very interesting: light touch in hands - attacker gets a point light/medium touch in the limbs, torso and head - attacker get a point heavy wound in hands - attacker loses the match (you ruined the life of your opponent) heavy wound in limbs - attacker loses the match (you dismembered your opponent) Heavy wound in the head and torso - attacker got disqualified (you murdered your opponent) This will make extreme violent/athletic fencers to have control over the blows, bonusing technic and protection over agresion.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

This is a great idea! I think I've already heard some people talk about rolling this out as a ruleset, and it really would be a refreshing change of pace to do this once every while, I think. :)

[@DreynHarry]

first of all - awesome mustache, buddy! 🙂 but man did you open a can of worms here 😀 I really like your analysis - why - well I am following this discussion for the last 20 years. I am one of the people who really dislikes tournaments - but as a guy founded/co founded two federations (the austrian HEMA federation and IFHEMA) and one of the biggest HEMA events of the world (Dreynevent) I do know the necessity of tournaments. And especially at the Dreynevent we played A LOT with the rule sets. we tried to penalize reckless fencing (e.g. attacking wit the lack of selfprotection), we tried to initiate the "perfect hit" which ends the fight immediatley (valid hema technique, executed with good form AND!!!! a proper retreat from the opponent in a covering guard), we tried immediate elimination for forcing double hits, and so on and so on and so on... Problem with all these rules are of course two things: 1. the judges: they have to been trained with this rule set - which is rarely possible - so of course lots of wrong doing did happen (no blame for the judges here, I did it myself and I did mistakes too of course) 2. the equipment: fighters do wear A LOOOOOOOOOOT of protective gear - which I can understand, no body wants to get seriously injured for nothing but having fun, but this ton of protection leads to a lack of respect for the opponents weapon. We need to remind ourselves that the techniques in the manuals are written for "Blossfechten" (fighting without any protection than normal linnen clothes) - therefore trying them in full "plate" armour where you do not have to be afraid of the opponents pointy thingy will lead automatically to double hits, how drives the fasted Oberhau (well, Anton Kohutovic - for sure and close on his heels maybe Martin Fabian 🙂) and who is the fittest (well at least this seems to be historically acurate based on the Thalhoffer books). We need to understand that replicating proper hema techniques as they are written in the books and fighting in a modern hema tournaments are two different sports using the same equipment. to bring this to an end... I will never like tournaments, I have seen good ones, I have seen reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally shitty ones and I have seen some really amazing fights in tournaments (Arto Fama - I guess you know this guy ;-) ) and really really bad ones too, but I also see the need for tournaments. Some people want to compete and if they love playing with swords/rapiers/sabres/messer/etc. then please let them have their fun and if you are a guy like me who loves digging into sources and try to find the optimal Oberhau (for the last 20 years) then be happy with the fact that your work and efforts do deliver the basis for the more sporty fencers. so guys, thats it from my side. Have fun with the most amazing hobby in the world, stay healthy and well - and dont take anything so serious! cheers Harry - Vienna

[@scarmethiusmaximo8735]

I coach BJJ and I’m new to HEMA, it’s interesting to me that this conversation seems to be universal in any martial art. People have said similar things to me about BJJ, which the answer is similar to this video. We must know the context of the technique. Some techniques aren’t built the same and rule sets matter for context. I noticed a comment above that I 100% agree with. Those in BJJ that compete get better faster. It’s stress inoculation. Helping the competitor be more relaxed under different stimulus. Great video

[@sanguinoid8919]

Interesting that I found your channel basically when you uploaded your first video years ago which was when I was first taking interest in messer so your videos have been sort of a constant companion to my own studies 😊

[@VirtualFechtschule]

That's cool! I got into messer myself because of some amazing videos here on YT, so I'm happy to hear I can give some of that back as well. :D

[@KankukanAiki]

I am an Aikido Keikonin, aikidoka and Daito Ryu Aikijutsuka and I also have a martial arts dedicated channel here on KZbin. Even if I trained my whole life in Japanese Martial Arts as a Historian I really love those channels who show the traditional historical swordsmanship (hema or not hema). I really enjoyed many of your video and so to speak I subscribed to your channel. It is always nice to help each other especially if we are fellow KZbinrs. And I really do hope to meet you someday. I live in Sardinia 🙏🙏🙏

[@Druid_Ignacy]

This is also visible in pseudo-Danzig - the last longsword section is about ansetzen, and there is written to do it ,,if you want to quickly wound or kill somebody".

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Nice!

[@VirtualFechtschule]

It doesn't surprise me, but nevertheless thanks for pointing it out! :D

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Are there any further clear Ernstfechten stücke in RDL that you know off the top of your head? :)

[@Druid_Ignacy]

@@VirtualFechtschule in Hs3227a, there is zwerhaw stich (?) vorschlag that is advised to be done if fighting ,,for throat", as well as other exercises. It does have messer section and author says all the text about fencing works for messer as well. In pseudo Danzig another awesome things are durswechseln and absetzen - one to avoid bind and thrust after that, and second so ,,enemy will meet your point, and will broke his own" (which ofc you're aware of). From my little experience I believe most of Lichtenauer longsword is applicable in full contant combat, even flashy stuff like mutieren, duplieren, auswinden or disarms. I did that and it's been done to me. Would somebody ever doubt these things are possible, they need only to train well and remember, that those techniques work not because we want to perform them and so choose them, but because there is place and time to perform them, and if we are able to recognize that place and time, we're home.

[@heitorp.c.1327]

I really like your approach! Great video!

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thanks, much appreciated! :D

[@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing]

I really like that video of yours. It's a very good presentation regarding that issue.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thanks! :)

[@shotgunridersweden]

I like your focusnon controll and restraint, it is something i myself need to work on

[@VirtualFechtschule]

It's a good thing to spend time on. I think I'll be making a video with some pointers for this next. :)

[@DimicatorSchola]

Very pleasant to watch video! I think one can even expand upon your observation that most concerns regarding "earnest" techniques in the sources do not apply to situations with modern protective equipment. Yes, there are a few options that would not be acceptable today either, such as certain throws, joint locks etc. (but also a few rapier techniques that only safely work when your weapon penetrates enough, so it's not only brutal longsword stuff), but making this the main argument why tournaments are so unsatisfying would be dishonest. In my very humble opinion, we are, in general (and not only in tournaments) still too inexperienced regarding fighting, both in what we know about the art and, consequentially, our level of training. "Athleticism" (or going in really fast to throw your opponent off guard) works because we can easily be surprised, otherwise these usually rather long attacks should not be able to succeed (although, yes, a non-lethal context encourages taking a risk for a statistical benefit). And if I may, I think this is also the reason why Absetzen worked fine for you; it *can* be successful by closing in quickly. I don't think that it has something to do with its quality as an "earnest" technique but rather that it does not require the same careful timing as e.g. Zufechten or the other techniques you described as "controlled". Timing, I would argue, is probably the greatest blind spot in our community, and the one which creates the most proxy debates. This also means that the overlap between sportive and earnest fighting is huge and their differences should concern us only at later stages. I am aware, though, that timing is probably the most difficult topic to write about. PS: If I may, in my understanding there is a difference between an iterative approach (which I fully agree we ought to take in HEMA) and a hermeneutic circle, which mostly describes how we understand our sources and how that may change. ;-)

[@VirtualFechtschule]

For the last point, true, but for me HEMA is largely about understanding fencing from the past trough a variety of sources, so it might still apply somewhat, as long as you're willing to break free from the disembodied constraints of classical humaniora and take the hermeneutics with you. ;) For the rest, so much yes! Timing is really important and it's such a big part of why things work or not. The Five Words were never meant to be some sort of abstract magical concept, but rather a measuring tool for initiative that has great use today, despite it being rooted in a different worldview. Using this well, means using timing well. It's really a shame that few people appreciate it as such and have to rely on different modern concepts that don't necessarily work with the older sources all too well.

[@josiasarcadia]

Love this. Very balanced take and I like that you didn't create/perpetuate the false dichotomy between athleticism and technique, which is a huge cope. They're not oppositional in any way.

[@martinbonniciphotography]

Great video. Just a few thoughts and general observations. (only my opinions of course) I have always found some bouts and most comps removed from what I can only think real fighting could have been. A part of the reason of this is at times, the overly confident approach of some fencers (which I am sure happened and I have done it myself). Second seeing quite a few competitions where the combatants constantly crash together, again I am sure this must have happened too. My question is, would this approach have also happened with sharps in a real fight? I can't know but I would mostly suggest I wouldn't think so. I must say that comps and fighting in a lot of bouts (I love friendly bouts) would be great for pressure and a stress test as has been said a number of times. So I am not canning comps as all but, I do think they are quite a long way removed from what a real fight would be. Working both in bouts and comps surely gives us a better understanding. Personally I love fighting unfamiliar opponents. Sorry for the novel and any typos that might appear ;-)

[@larshuijs2185]

You did a very good take on what are those sources we sometimes swear by back then. The same thing that happened back then is happening today as well, in my opinion, except that we, thanks to a higher degree of technology, can do the same techniques meant for 'ernstfechten' and not hurt or end eachother. There's always be this split between martial arts by the books or martial arts to do it for real. The only added problem here is that our sources are generally too old to make sense of them in the way that they were used back then. We are dealing with small (who knows how big it might've been, or even have made it to scripted recordings!) remnants of a forgotten martial art, and now that we have opened the subject to a broader public, people forget that this was the case back then as well. Or at least, this is my current theory, seeing how martial arts are behaving today!

[@MrEpi321]

Absolutely agree. Wonderful video Sir.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thanks! I'm happy you enjoyed it!

[@robmancebo70]

Good points, as always. Thanks. Great info.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thank you!

[@valentincastelo]

IT IS ABOUT TRAING THE REFLEX FOR DEFENSE AND TIMING AND PRECISION FOR OFFENSE

[@dashiellharrison4070]

Fellow guy on the internet who's read like three books and done some sparring: This definitely squares with my experience with longsword. My cleanest exchanges come from heavy use of the "zeck" play from Pseudo-Peter von Danzig, supplemented by ansetzen, use of the "veler", and some more instinctual parry-riposte stuff that doesn't feel quite in keeping with the KdF sources, but comes out a lot in sparring anyway. Fancy bindy-windy stuff gets me hit more often than not, and I don't usually bother with it if I'm fencing for points. But I still do it in friendly sparring, because that's part of the art and it's pretty af! Have you looked at Lignitzer's sword-and-buckler much? I find it stands out among the KdF sources in that almost all of the plays are fairly high-percentage (except No. 6). It's my favorite source for that reason, I really feel like I'm fencing the most like the source material when I'm working with sword-and-buckler, just because Ligntizer's stuff is so simple and practical. Another thing I have noticed is that the peripheral sources (stuff that was copied down by people familiar with the zetel but not direct glosses, e.g. The Other Masters from 3227a, the Stuck im Aufstreichen, etc) do seem to have a greater emphasis on simple, higher percentage actions than the actual stuff in most of the zetel. Not totally sure what to make of that...

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I've worked with Lignitzer and I've found that they're really great for using bind actions almost with eyes closed, since you'll probably hit something along the way :P . And you can get away with that with because of the buckler. As for peripheral techniques, I think you might be onto something here! :D The core parts of fight books are of course complete systems, with high percentage stuff and funny extra things and anything in between. But masters appending some techniques of their own will probably use the most high percentage things they know, or covering something with a lot of utility not covered by the core text. Another great example would be Lew's Sprechfenster Stücke. :)

[@dashiellharrison4070]

@@VirtualFechtschule Yeah, I've noticed with Lignitzer plays that I often hit stuff I'm not aiming for. Go for a duplieren to the mouth like he says in the second play and catch an arm instead when the other guy moves back, etc. I'll have to give Lew's Sprechfenster Stucke a look.

[@GermanSwordMaster]

Ah. I love your channel. Awesonely fine hardware, arms, clothing and armour. The opinions. The beard. We go for the same things, you and me. Except for the beard. I tried tgat in the past aswell though :'D keep up the work :)

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Hahaha, nice! Happy to hear we vibe on so many levels. :D

[@KieselSteinchen46]

i find it so funny from my perspective coming from HEMA as well as Full contact fighting alike with a lot of experience, that the "sportification" is seen as a bad thing. On tournament level HEMA as well as Full contact fighting (as in WMFC, HMB etc.) is a sport with a ruleset, and athletisism and understanding how fighting works wins the day in those situation. the real problem does not come from accepting the fact that it is a sport afterall, its more the people that want to larp as fencing masters of old and see every stetp away from what they interprete out of the fencing manuals as blasphemy because they consider them as "holy texts". i rather like the idea of using the manuals as a red line to understand the basics of movement and work with these techniques as a baselayer for learning how to use a sword or understand the principles of fighting itself the rest you learn through sparring. wich brings the next point everything will work against an opponent you know well or who is not really resisting fighting the same sparring partner all the time brings nothing therefor exchange between clubs and to a wider extend tournaments are the most important thing to really learn how to fight. in literally every other actual combat sport the consense is you learn fighting through only one thing and this is fighting. technique training will not make you a great fighter by its own, techniques are tools somebody can utilize if needed and should be treated as that, following fencing manuals to the point is bullshit and will get your ass kicked at every tournament.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

"following fencing manuals to the point is bullshit and will get your ass kicked at every tournament." Unless your name is Arto of course. :P But jokes aside, you're absolutely right that fencing as many people from as many different clubs and backgrounds is the way to go. Everyone I know who is even remotely good (or at least considered so) regularly competes and/or trains with a wide variety of sparring partners. Not sure what fight books you work with, but for me they're mostly tactical problem solving. Mechanics can be distilled from them, but after that it's drilling and sparring until it works. Same goes for principles, but tactics are still something I from time to time dive into manuscripts for (but this might just be the problem-solving focus of the Zettel making this a viable idea).

[@desdicadodog8452]

You are awesome oskar

[@boon9329]

There is no perfect answer to the problem of course, but one of my favorite tournament rule sets that I've experienced used a very high penalty for doubling with and without afterblows. It even resulted in no 1st or 2nd place but a 3 way tie for 3d in rapier. I don't remember exactly how things were tallied, but it definitely made everyone treat attacks as a genuine threat a little more than you normally see in a tournament context.

[@BorninPurple]

Hiya, I was wondering if you've had the chance to read The Martial Ethic? I think it may answer a lot of question in terms of "real fighting" in a historical context, especially in the customs that were carried over to Early Modern Germany.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I did, and mostly when I talk about this subject I'm referencing this exact book. I feel it should be mandatory reading for HEMA, along with 'Understanding Fencing' by Czjaikowski. :D

[@alexhunt7810]

video link at 7:18 isn't working. Otherwise, an excellent video as ever

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I'll try to fix it. Thanks for pointing it out! :D

[@freddyfox5102]

I have some questions about HEMA in general if you don't mind! Could I use a buhurt sword for HEMA fights?? They can be a bit heavier so I wasn't sure but they are very blunt. Also what's the difference between a HEMA duel and pro fights/duels in buhurt?? Is buhurt more aggressive and HEMA more controlled/subdued??

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Good questions! You can technically use buhurt swords for training (though your wrists will probably not like it much), but if you want to do sparring, heavy weight and lack of flex will become a safety issue. Generally not to be recommended for that reason. The big difference between the two competitive formats (without saying either one is better, because we already have enough of that sort of BS on the internet) is that buhurt duels are fought in rounds of continuous fighting, with the outcome determined by knock out or tallied hits (like boxing), whereas with HEMA matches the action is stopped after every hit and points are awarded. When it comes to intensity, with buhurt the strikes will be harder, as the fighters have better protection against them, while HEMA fights allow thrusts, which can sometimes be quite nasty. Both formats allow wrestling. :) There have been experiments with continuous fight HEMA matches as well, though they're still a bit niche. It's really cool to watch (and I like to do them personally), but it does require a lot of skill and physicality to do them. You have to be able to keep defending the entire round, because you have very little protection to eat hits if you mess up.

[@freddyfox5102]

@@VirtualFechtschule Okay thankyou for the reply! Continuous fight HEMA does sound pretty cool, possibly more for me than having to stop after each hit. I guess both sports/activities each offer something different, I defo want to try and have a go at both sometime ^^

[@VirtualFechtschule]

@@freddyfox5102 you should definitely try both. They each have a lot of things to offer. :)

[@GiskardRevenlov]

Off topic but what is that longsword on the left? It's beautiful.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

It's a Malleus Martialis Todesca. Best longsword ever!

[@GiskardRevenlov]

@@VirtualFechtschule I thought I recognized the style! My uncle has one of their swords. I got an Albion Ringneck but I've been looking for another longsword, can't bring myself to spar with it, even lightly

[@kaizen5023]

15 years doing various western martial arts or HEMA if you like, and my observation is that in most tournaments people mainly care about "getting the hit" and not so much the "art of defence" -- they aren't treating it like a fight with sharps, so they will take ridiculous risks and use bad form to score.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Some people do. But this is HEMA, so most people will call it out for the ugly fencing it is. Good fencers will still be able to prioritise defense and fence cleanly, and many of them show this often at tournaments. :)

[@Kyle-sr6jm]

The problem I see is that they are making a 'scoring' hit, not a true cut.

[@konstantin3374]

Where does that 'cult of sharps' come from, btw? Back in the good old days sharps weren't used for casual fencing either. On the other hand they didn't figure out the concept of protective gear yet.

[@2adamast]

Looking at a cavalry manual (1865) I see evidence based fighting, where they consider that an attack is more likely to succeed to a parry and scores where a parry just holds the status co. But that's dashing cavalry thinking: ridiculous risks and use bad form to score

[@Kyle-sr6jm]

The problem is that playing tag with steel is very different than making cuts that would kill or de-limb an opponent. If your strike would not make a good cut, you are simply playing tag.

[@cuhooligan1126]

I felt so specifically addressed at the beginning 🤣

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Hehehe

[@daniel8181]

I don't know what started this, but I've seen people win tournaments by exposing their heads to lethal afterblow to snipe a cheap, ineffective hit on an opponent, but by the rules end up winning as a result. I've also seen this inspire rule changes (a good thing), but not often enough. Allowing these practices to continue causes a gamification, and you end up with a situation like boxing, where its "best fighter" is just gaming points and his opponent is smart enough to know if he dedicates energy to defending these distractions he can't finish the job. If an opponent makes a whiff at your toes he should be promptly punished by strike to the head, in theory. In practice, its a lot like fighting "the drunk" , because he doesn't protect himself, he is impossible to predict, this means you, looking for your own interests are disadvantaged because you seemingly must take a hit in order to score a hit, which is the opposite of what you want, meanwhile, the sniper keeps taking those shots and tries to rack up cheap points. This is why protection should be discarded, it creates "gamers" and not "martial artists"

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I was on a panel discussion this weekend, and when discussing this topic I think most people on the panel and in the audience agreed that the differentiation between sport and martial art is the focus on hitting without getting hit, as opposed to just hitting more often. The problem starts when you discard certain types of training though. Too much gear leads to artefacts, but so does completely discarding all protection. The way I see it, if your goal is to do HEMA as a martial art, you have to be able to stay safe without relying on gear overly much, but you also want to be able to pressure test and fence people you don't know who are very motivated to hit you. Tournaments still hold an important place in that martial learning journey.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Spot on :D

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thanks Borislav! :D

[@obeastness]

My main gripe with the tournaments and people drawing conclusions is that even though there is pressure felt in a tournament setting, it cannot recreate the feeling of facing down an opponent wielding a sharp blade. I think people should be reluctant to make concrete conclusions when such a major element is absent from the scenario.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

At the surface this is true. Without a shade of doubt. But I do think it's the best we have. There's been some research into how athlete's bodies responds to high level competition and it turned out surprisingly similar to soldiers in combat. It's not perfect, but I don't think it's completely worthless for this purpose either. :)

[@obeastness]

@@VirtualFechtschule I'm not saying it's worthless but I very much do look forward to the advancement in AI and how it could be applied to replicate human behavior in a simulation, I think that could be an incredibly enlightening tool to have.

[@sirnick12]

As someone who didn't participate in the tournaments yet, but have some sparring under the belt the one thinh that sticks out a lot is the fact that not only are most fencers super shitty at wrestling, many tournament rules discourage wrestling by giving less points for a slice while controlling the enemy's blade hand than a proper stab. That is also why sometimes tournament can feel not so clean in the fencing. When 2 people are too close one should 100% just drop the sword put the other guy in a headlock and securely take him down, sadly many tournaments dont even give points unless you touched the opponent with the blade

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Headlock sounds... Maybe a bit extreme to be safely done in tournaments, but other than that I think you have a valid point. The problem is one of safety though. Most fencers don't grapple often enough to do it safely at a competitive level, so people who organise tournaments generally don't want to incentivise wrestling too much. The other is one of context. As Robert Brooks likes to say: tournaments are a murder fest. Hits that score highest are generally lethal, like cuts to the head and thrusts to the torso. Trying to gain control over someone by grappling takes way more effort and is more risky, but the reward is generally speaking ending a fight without killing the opponent (which was historically speaking nice, because manslaughter may have been excusable in some cases, you'd still have to answer some questions and deal with angry relatives). A fun tournament would be one where lethal hits are forbidden and controlling techniques are rewarded. People would grapple a lot more.

[@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194]

Thankfully i didnt hear anything about the drama. What i get from reading german military sources and others that overall they advise to learn fencing but for war they recommend taking away the "fancy" and "jumpy" steps and stay to the basics. The rest on how to fence in war you will get teached by experienced soldiers or certain types of officers. One italian source i know about says the same. So fencing is actually quite good to learn but needs some extra lessons if you need to use it for war. Some authors talk about that though frustatingly sparse. Some of the differences are quite big and especially the tactical approach can change a lot. Like simple long powerful cross cuts (which we see with Meyer, Giganti and apparently polish saber fencing ) to displace and offend. When they talk about real life fighting and the salle things get interesting. No extreme steps or lunges etc because of the uneven ground and the risks involved. Giganti has some pieces where he first displaces the sword and not in the same moment but rather slightly later cuts or thrusts to the enemy. He states that irl many by trying to go in the same tempo, kill each other so its rather better to displace then attack(intersting to note that Giganti had a military carreer behind him when publishing the second book) Now that being said i think tournaments are super important because it teaches to function under a huge amount of stress trying to read the unknown opponent, employing techniques under stress and so on. My idea would be different types of tournaments that however are regulated the same in each category. The question is always whats the goal? Maybe you have seen that video but Schildwache Potsdam had a video about a sidesword tournament with historical rules. I think this could offer us some compromise or solution to the problem some tournament rules have. Meaning like being too olympic by simply abusing high risk thrust to score points. That being said fencing books must be viewed in their context and in that context they work such as trial by combat, courtyl fencing, self defense or even all of that. So from what i gather fencing overall offers all the techniques but not always the approach. What i mean they often do not teach on how to perform them in war or how to tactically employ them in war for example. But they do teach them, its up the fencer to take from them what they need or get teached by soldiers what to use from them. So totally agree with you the fencing books are not pointless they re just context dependent and depending on the tournament rules they work really well. So rather i would say the other way around some tournament techniques/tactics wouldnt work quite well in "fighting earnestly" . Got a bit convoluted hope it makes sense.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Thanks, it's a long but well thought reply! :) The frustrating thing for me about 15th and early 16th century sources is that they have all possible techniques, showing a lot of the tactics as well, but only rarely specifying what context they are for. Lecküchner is a bit of an exception, but even there it takes a lot of study and adaptability to get the most out of this source.

[@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194]

Agree and sometimes you get strikes or hews that are quite weird and quite ineffective but i guess they would have been good for fencing tournaments. The best source on that from the 15-early 16th century would be pietro monte imo. Since he directly talks about warfare. Maybe they just expected the fencer to learn it themselves by taking from the things they learned just that what they need.

[@controllerfreak3596]

I wouldn't risk harming your mustache.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

That's why I train to git gud. Somebody has to keep the moustache safe.

[@Zwerchhau]

I make an opposite challenge, go through high level HEMA tournament footage, then try and find winning techniques NOT found in a Fechtbuch. I think one may find this difficult.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

The fight books tend to encompass pretty much anything, but even that being the case, good fencing is still good fencing. Most of what works now, indeed shows up in a tournament. I really liked tackling this idea of 'street stuff' being too dangerous or amazing for tournaments though. :D

[@Zwerchhau]

@@VirtualFechtschule I personally find that martial arts claiming "X technique is too dangerous" to train, are people trying to avoid sparring or having to actually learn to fight.

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Yeah, that's both a red flag and soooo cringe.

[@favkisnexerade]

hema techniques hurt as hell, if you want ppl to use them in sparring give them minimal protection so each miss punishes them and each successfull attack would hinder your opponent

[@VirtualFechtschule]

Knockout rules seem like fun, until you try it and end up with a severe concussion. 😅 You can of course also just train techniques and then create contextual sparring games and rulesets that bring these techniques out. I would personally much prefer that.

[@favkisnexerade]

@@VirtualFechtschule not saying about knockout at all. Head should be protected as much as possible, as well as fingers. But parts that just hurt without real danger can be protected minimally, like wear only padded jack, and elbow/knee protection. And chest protection under jack. Then there's almost no way to break something, but each proper hit would sting pretty good.

[@jacobhowson5501]

Comment for the algorithm

[@smokerxluffy]

I see most of the more complicated techniques as "Quick Time Events", where I can't _really_ seek them out, but by training them into muscle memory when they do show up I can get an easy good blow in. But also as a Fiore practitioner I train from the basic tenet that "there's too many fucking techniques to bother memorizing, so focus on training on your core, universal techniques".

[@VirtualFechtschule]

I mostly do Lecküchner, so I know that feeling. I think that makes sense, although I probably explain the concept a bit differently. Consciously seeking out techniques that aren't properly ingrained will usually only work if you're a lot faster than an opponent.

[@marcusschulze9172]

you got some vicious fangs there, are you a vampire and so teach what you have learned 400 years ago?

[@daniel8181]

Ban tournaments, start prize winning.