Here's how billions of dollars in cost overruns came to define Boston's Big Dig

[@northebound]

I've never been to Boston, but I heard about the Big Dig on the periphery while I was growing up with conservative parents. I am absolutely enthralled by this podcast and I honestly don't want it to end.

[@mikeflanary642]

Come visit. The greenway is really nice!

[@Alevuss92]

Should read 'People Before Highways' and 'A People's History of the New Boston', at least one of which was a source for this podcast. Years ago, Jacobin also did a podcast called 'People's History' and covered '60s-'80s transit/housing protests in Columbia Point, a neighborhood in Boston. That may help scratch the itch on your commute.

[@wrightmf]

I've been to Boston once on a cruise ship where it made a stop, there were the usual tourist trips but I wanted to go where the Big Dig occurred. Not much to see, didn't go in a car into the tunnels but took a walk on the green grass where some ugly highway used to be.

[@wrightmf]

@bostonspartan4194 exactly! there's no ugly highways, bridges. there is a lovely greenway that is much to see. I was talking to someone about this series and other big civil engineering projects. They are all cost overrun disasters until the project is completed. Exception of poor designs such as the original bridges that went through Boston.

[@moi01887]

@@mikeflanary642 As is the rest of the city!

[@adambeauregard1021]

Having lived in or around Boston half my life and old enough to remember the central artery when I was younger this podcast really hits home. I started listening to it on Apple podcasts and found it on KZbin and had to rewatch the first 5 episodes. It's even better on KZbin with the old videos and it's simply the best podcast/documentary I've ever listened to or watched. This series is a complete masterpiece.

[@aldinlee8528]

Yet, reveals really nothing new.

[@justaskin8523]

Hey Adam, there's another podcast series called "The Fall of Civilizations" that is done in much the same style as this one. Highly recommended, and the KZbin version will have interesting visuals, although a lot of B-roll will appear in multiple episodes. Still, it's worth your time to watch at least one and see if you like it.

[@michaelsimoncini3224]

Well said

[@richcallinan9419]

I couldn’t agree with you more. And yet, with over 88k views as of this date, this episode has only received less than 300 Likes.

[@mattr8128]

I love how Gillette gave Boston so much heat for digging under them and potentially blowing up production, and then they announced yesterday (10/24) they are shutting down production in Boston.

[@jamesthornton9399]

I thought if was finished?

[@mumblesbadly7708]

Gillette did, however, allow that dry dock to be built on its property, temporaily losing the use of that parking space, to allow the tunnel segments to be built in place.

[@Paul1958R]

Boston >>Andover >> china

[@justaskin8523]

Gillette is probably shutting down production in Boston because it's too expensive, not safe from crime, and loaded down with corruption.

[@bobl6139]

That was over two decades ago .they are the only manufacturer left in the city. There was a curtain factory in Chinatown forever and they closed down fifteen years ago and became a hirise condo on Kingston street

[@Xsiondu]

God I have been loving this series. It's so damn engrossing I have been dreading when it comes to an end.

[@fencius]

I have been loving this podcast. I was born in 1985, so these are all events that I remembered from my childhood without having really understood. Now, as somebody who works in the trades, I really appreciate that you took the time to interview Frank Martinez. His story shows that there is a real, human cost for every piece of infrastructure built that isn’t reflected in the politics and numbers.

[@argonunya8751]

I'm a civil engineer & have been doing construction cost estimating for 25+ years. Kerasiotes made up a number, plans were rushed so there were tons of unknowns, corresponding delays, massive Change Orders and massive cost overruns - that happens w/ frightening regularity.

[@nikita-dh5je]

What is the big deal over a few billion dollars added to the cost of a critical infrastructure project vital to the Massachusetts economy and transportation needs. People like John McCain got so infuriated with a few billion dollars, but the next decade, they supported spending several trillion dollars on endless wars in the mideast that killed hundreds of thousands of people. I never understood people who vote for wars that cost trillions, but are so dismayed by a few billion for infrastructure.

[@Paul1958R]

Cost overuns = contractors overcharging by 500+ percent and the state saying 'thats fine its the taxpayers money not ours' (and many government 'regulators' getting huge kickbacks). All corrupt.

[@moi01887]

But do you think everything could ever have been known, without actually starting the project?

[@abdulwasiujegede3923]

​@@moi01887 That is why it's engineering. You don't rush into a project without properly planning it out. All the variables must be known, all the cost element etc must be properly defined before the design, preparation of engineering bills, and methods statements for corruption.

[@moi01887]

@@abdulwasiujegede3923 So you're saying you must know the composition of every cubic meter of soil (/whatever) and every single buried thing you're going to have to avoid or dig through before beginning the project? How exactly would you do that... without actually digging the tunnel?

[@Alevuss92]

This is the episode we've all been waiting for since we saw that trailer.

[@BobFrTube]

As one who appreciates infrastructure I'm struck by the focus on just costs and so little focus on value. Could those who know today's Boston imagine the old highway? Too bad the cost focus us shortchanged us on public transportation.

[@shininggreentea]

I feel this is very much an American mentality that public goods shouldn't cost too much and that they should generate revenue when in reality, it'll cost to build and maintain (especially Amtrak, any public transportation)

[@nikita-dh5je]

The same people who complain about costs on infrastructure supported wars in the middle east that cost several trillion dollars. Their priorities are absurd.

[@aldinlee8528]

Definitely, I agree about the horrible cost of war-mongers, @@nikita-dh5je. BUT, there was NO VALUE here, not at all. Are you happy if you go to a car dealer and they charge you for all sorts of non-sense that is b.s., but not just for small percentage of the total cost, a large percentage. This is what the Big Dig design did. I disagree with ALL of the rhetoric, which this video repeats, that it was the implementation which was the problem. Yes, no doubt, like ANY projects, even in the private sector, there are unexpecteds, thus the typical buffer that is added into most project costs. The designers, the MassDOT, are quite happy that the MassPike Authority, who implemented the project, are the fall guys. What NO ONE has published yet, is that the exorbitant cost of the project were baked into the design. And so much of it was needless.

[@moi01887]

@@nikita-dh5jeThey're willing to spend infinitely to kill foreigners (and people who look like foreigners), but won't spend a penny to help people at home.

[@phuturephunk]

It's always like that. Even if you put it in raw number terms, kvetching about 15 billion dollars for a once in a lifetime shot is nothing, literally nothing. The Boston-Cambridge-Newton statistical area is responsible for 500+ billion dollars a year of economic activity. 15 billion, 20 billion for a once in a lifetime is nothing...literally nothing. It's ridiculous we piss and moan about this.

[@wintermath3173]

I can't imagine Boston with a freeway where that park is. Today the North End feels like a connected part of the city.

[@mumblesbadly7708]

The intangible value of how the Big Dig allowed so much free space in downtown Boston can’t begin to be valued.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

If it weren't for the Big Dig that decrepit old Central Artery viaduct would have been replaced with an elevated L.A. style freeway, but it would be a two-decker structure, or just a through route with no ramps between Storrow Drive and the Mass. Pike instead.

[@torchup]

Such a huge project would never even begin if the actual final cost was known before a traffic cone was laid down.

[@justaskin8523]

They still would have done it. Just with more of "other people's money", which is code for "your money and mine".

[@phillm156]

In 1997 the city of Boston was giving foreign dignitaries a grand tour of the Big Dig project. I was giving one group a guided tour. I remarked to my group (5 member of a civil planning dept.) of visitors that this project will be way over the 5 billion budget, or the revised 7.5 Billion inflation, more like 15 Billion. We worked out all the major areas of construction that needed remediation (more money). From all the unforeseen underground utilities that needed relocation (many were not mapped). The problems digging in unknown landfill. The massive reinforcement needed for the adjacent building foundations. We had a good laugh and remarked at the 56 massive cranes that dotted the skyline. That night at a reception while still in discussion about the Big Dig project, a upper level politician of that same foreign countries constituent confidently stated that he is very certain that the Big Dig will only cost $5 billion estimate (7.5 with inflation). After he left, we had another good laugh 😆.

[@PDXLibertarian]

1.5 Billion overrun on a 10.2 Billion project is only a 13% variance. Compare that to California High Speed Rail, which was submitted to the voters in 2008 at 33.6 billion and today is estimated at over 100 Billion - a 297% variance. The reality is the Big Dig's cost overruns should not have been that much of a scandal, especially because the impact to Massachussett's taxpayers was fairly minimal given the federal funding. California's situation is completely different.

[@nikita-dh5je]

The same people who complain about costs on infrastructure supported wars in the middle east that cost several trillion dollars. Their priorities are absurd. John McCain was just one of those people.

[@danielblumenthalhoffman2585]

It's actually a way better parallel than you think. The 1.5b that they're talking about in this episode was just one of many cost increases. When the project was approved by congress, the price tag was 3.2b, with a final price tag of 14 or so billion. Even with an inflation adjustment, it's around 200%.

[@photosapphic1984]

CHSR is running into two big issues that are driving up costs in a way that I don’t think the Big Dig had to deal with: the first being land acquisition for the right of way, and secondly, piecemeal funding that delays construction leading to a higher cost increase from inflation than if they were able to fund contiguous construction. The other thing, too, is that a lot of the CHSR project includes improvements to local intercity railways, so CHSR isn’t just about CHSR, but passenger rail in California in general.

[@perfectman3077]

@@photosapphic1984 I am sure the rest of us will share the burden as always

[@Bugm-kn9sv]

Anyone else watching this while being in grid lock traffic underneath the I90 tunnel

[@wrightmf]

Like everyone commenting, I just find this series so fascinating. My impression of this episode is those cost overruns were peanuts even when accounting for inflation when considering we blew trillions in Afghanistan and Iraq and nothing to show for it. Boston can show a monumental achievement, something people can use. Rather than showing video of the people interviewing, we see much the same footage of same traffic jams and construction. Perhaps that has value as the people being interviewed probably more vocally open. For those that lived during this construction, those traffic jams felt exactly like it was the same thing again and again day after day. And construction work just never seems to end. It always feels like that. Perhaps Panama Canel or even building the Pyramids in Eygpt felt like this.

[@CynicalDriver]

I know KZbin is a less than ideal platform for a podcast like this, but I gotta say... Thank you. So far, this has been a fascinating ride, even for someone who doesn't live in Boston. Having traveled through Boston several times in the later 20-oh's... I always found it an interesting topic.

[@pcongre]

man, i LOVE this podcast! < 3 ...and yet i'm slowly starting to get slightly nervous: when is induced traffic going to be mentioned? (i e in short, the fact that we would've been so much better off by tearing down our urban highways without replacing them at all) ...in episode 9 / the epilogue, hopefully?

[@tonytawa9065]

I certainly hope the next episode puts more of a spotlight on how Bechtel's corporate culture and contributions to politicians of both parties contributed greatly to these cost overruns. Twenty years later people forget that the 'Boston Harbor Cleanup' was occurring in the same time-frame as the 'Big Dig'; ICF Kaiser (Construction Manager) and Metcalf & Eddy (Lead Design Engineer) basically served the same functions, respectively, on the former undertaking as Bechtel and Parsons-Brinckerhoff served on the latter. As an engineer for a design firm that had subcontracts for both efforts, I worked on both projects, and was able to observe firsthand the contrast in how both projects were managed by the CMs. ICF Kaiser was incentivized to control costs, and the Boston Harbor Cleanup stands as a shining example of a major public works project that came in under budget. In contrast, the more costs the Big Dig incurred, the more profit Bechtel made. Is it any wonder, then, that "cost overruns came to define Boston's Big Dig".

[@tedshaw4160]

Yes, It's a big point of pride at the MWRA.

[@nicholassilva3640]

Best voice ever so easy to listen to!

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

Did Boston ever hear about this new thing from the 1900s called public transportation?

[@Jakob_DK]

Apparently it is in the last episode. Instead of building public transportation first to lower demand for the high way while constructing they waited untill 20 years after :-)

[@blaydCA]

Boston has the SECOND oldest Major Subway in existence. London England was the first

[@moi01887]

To be clear, I'm 100% a supporter of the Big Dig. But the reality is we spent ~$15 billion to transform a system of roads that carried traffic into, out of, and through the city, into a system of roads that carries traffic into, out of, and through the city. Yes the new system handles heavy traffic a bit better, and it absolutely benefits the city esthetically. But based on its biggest impact, it *is* an "urban beautification project". Personally I'm okay with that because I think the esthetic benefits are worth it. And yes maybe we had to pull some shenanigans to get the feds to fund it, but given the fact that MA pays more in federal taxes than we get back from the federal government (unlike many other states), I'm not going to lose any sleep over that. One thing I'm hoping the podcast might discuss is a potential long-term benefit: it seems like the fact the underground roads aren't exposed to the weather might reduce maintenance costs? Not that we're going to recoup $25 billion overnight but maybe a little at a time. And considering that being exposed to rain/snow/salt the elevated highway probably would at some point need to be completely rebuilt, the cost of that should be considered.

[@stellamcwick8455]

I have been an engineer on many projects with Bechtel. The one thing they are really, really good at is managing change orders. The thing is, since this project was contracted at cost plus, would change orders have come into play?

[@ElectricEvan]

Now wait a minute. I take issue with that editorial at the ending. When they extended the Red Line and tunneled to do it through Harvard Square it was not a fiasco in the same way the Big Dig was. Dukakis cites that project to show how if the earlier team had been left in charge the outcome might have been different. If you are going to engage in speculation suggesting the earlier team was lied about the cost you are obligated to include the other contradictory opinion defending that team.

[@greenguren]

Aww mann i didnt realize this was like a totally new podcast, i dont wanna waitt for the next episode 😂😂

[@kennethwilson1140]

Cost estimates are exactly that, estimates the real cost of any project can only be accurately measured after it's finished; this project (and many other projects) could have benefited by being more upfront about the cost over runs and more importantly describing the issues encountered in an easy to understand way, Boston is a beautiful city and wouldn't be nearly as nice if those eyesores of an elevated expressway were still there.

[@TAZ0300]

I now live in Chelmsford, Massachusetts, only 40 minutes from the big dig outside of Boston I have cousins who first started working in construction on the big gig and they retired 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑 right after the big dig was completed Even though it still has leaks here and there, which is absolutely absolute bullshit

[@davidbuda]

First rate journalism.

[@aldinlee8528]

The high costs were baked in to the design. So naive.

[@colclumper]

Costly but much better than the old freeway

[@Jakob_DK]

Did anyone consider if the high ways had to cut through the center of Boston in the first place?

[@edwardmiessner6502]

14.8 billion for 7-1/2 miles of highway and the access ramps. That's about 2 billion per mile! It would cost a lot more in today's money. In comparison the Second Avenue Subway, cost $1.7 billion per mile and it has the capacity of 20 lanes of traffic!

[@mysoneffa2417]

Where's ep 7 ???

[@GBHNews]

Hi! The podcast comes out on Wednesdays. Episode 7 will be out on November 1.

[@robpeters5204]

So how many of these upper management guys make so much money? Driving fancy cars and living in big homes.

[@scottleung9587]

Wow.

[@alexisdespland4939]

what if any archeology was discovered vbecause of the big dig.

[@Sp4mMe]

Insane to intentionally mislead the public about the finances of such a project. Luckily it didn't end up sinking it. Also, of course, no real consequences for anyone involved. Guy can still sit there go on about how this was "just" a strategy to control costs, somehow, magically.

[@pizzaivlife]

honestly, I think the argument that "once the prices are going up, everyone wants more" has some merit. I see that point, but I also see the huge argument in the other direction as well

[@Sp4mMe]

Yes, sure, you can't go into such a project saying "eh, it's a bottom-less pit, do what you want". But the jobs of the people involved here is actual project management, which involves ensuring cost control mechanisms. And just publicly repeating a number over and over again is not cost management, it's just lying. Once you start manipulating numbers in the background over it through weird horse trading with certain aspects of the project you really gotta question whether it's still saving money at all or actually even just making things worse ...

[@VelleyIndustrial]

Shannon, do you still want to show Tim Russert your tattoo?

[@jnagarya519]

That's what happens when democratic gov't is run "like a business": business always has excuses to overcharge.

[@jcrump1965]

The host wonders why cost became the focus? Are you kidding me? He must work for the state government to think that 14-point-whatever BILLION dollars isn't something to be concerned about.

[@cds5067]

honestly i aint got time to watch this, but here's a comment for the algorithm, god bless us all.

[@mumblesbadly7708]

Those people who celebrated the “new millenium” on January 1, 2000 were ignorant of the fact that the new millenium started a year later because there is no Year 0 in the Gregorian calendar! 😂😂😂

[@ababababaababbba]

woOOOOO

[@lorenzoferguson7055]

That was gay….

[@edmctug8800]

This was a gigantic project, Sure it was costly, put a lot of folks to work, all good,,heck of a lot better than the old eleavted high way,

[@scottleung9587]

Yes, it was painful indeed but had to be done.