Here we go...New Players Vs. Old Players - REAL TALK

[@agni2051]

Tekken 8 has an entire replay system where you can RE-LIVE YOUR L's in REAL TIME, and the GAME EXPLAINS TO YOU HOW TO WIN...some games back then didn't even have training mode.

[@Sharkofspace]

The replay system doesn't work 90% of the time, and when it does it just says things like "Shoulda broken that throw lol"

[@ledgy69]

@@Sharkofspace finally someone saying this

[@agni2051]

@@Sharkofspace practice your throw breaks bro wym

[@Sharkofspace]

@@agni2051 What does that have to do with anything? My point is that replays don't actually tell you how to beat most things, and when they do, it's generic "Simply win the match" type advice that doesn't help you.

[@agni2051]

@@Sharkofspace "last hit in the string can be ducked and punished" "This hit is launch punishable" They literally tell you how to beat lots of things wym

[@thatsbussssin]

Off topic but my dad tells me stories all the time of him spending hours and hours at the arcade playing street fighter . As young as I can remember I was introduced to street fighter and would play all night with my dad . Finding this channel reminds me so much of my dad and I just wanted to thank you for your dedication into these videos and keeping the fighting game community alive.

[@kadosho02]

It was a different time, and scene. I too played SF and many more at arcades. The interaction, and watching two people play different characters, and seeing what they do. Win or lose. It was intense, and also fun. We have come such a long way since those days. But those memories last a lifetime.

[@lyrand6408]

Back in the Arcade days, you could only wonder "How did he do that?!" and never have the answer, because: 1) You never wanted to look bad or 'weak' so you never actually asked; but 2) If you DID ask, chances are the guy you're fighting against won't tell you, or will give you a half answer at best. Fighting game players in the 90s were absolutely secretive about combos or 'tips and tricks'. They would almost never share moves or "secrets". In fact, they would go as far as _lying_ that you just need to do "this and that" and then you try it yourself and it doesn't work, and you think at first you're just too bad to do it like he told you to; when in reality he's just setting you in the wrong direction from the start. They were deceptive, lying or secretive (or a bit of all of that mixed up together). I can recall as far back as MK2, players at the Arcades lied about so much shit that it created rumors up the wazoo, enough that we talked about said supposed things that apparently were in the game in our classrooms and had debates about whether or not it was true. I myself noticed it live as I played the original Killer Instinct at Arcades, I had to figure out moves by either: 1) Pure chance (and remembering it if it ended up being a combo) or 2) Silently observing others playing and looking at their button presses and stick directions and memorizing it as best as I could. It took me until late in 1995, or early 1996 when I finally saw that famous Killer Instinct 'bible' (guide) magazine released around the same time as the SNES version came out, where I FINALLY got access to information, about combos, how to start them, how long they're supposed to be, what are the combo breakers, etc. About 90% of the information contained in the guide was completely unknown at the Arcades. Back then you'd go to Arcades, play games for as long as you're willing to hold on to your pennies, and leave after maybe 2 hours max. In that time you maybe had the chance to play a couple of matches of your favorite Fighting games, and then you went back home and you'd forget about most of the moves you did (or you'd forget about the NEW moves you might have found that day). Gaming magazines, and gaming guides (mostly guides) were our source of information at the time, we had no other reliable sources unless we had actual friends willing to share their own 'moves' with X, Y and Z characters in our favorite games (which wasn't even guaranteed). So yeah, Old School fighting games players had it rough back then, but we went along, it was our time. I can only realize it more in modern times since it changed so much. Nowadays you can have access to all sorts of guides and videos and just the Internet in general to help. Not to mention that in-game Practice modes today in most fighting games are AMAZING at teaching players how to play. We did NOT have such Practice modes back then as say... what you can find in SF6 nowadays, it's completely different. By the way, this does not remove anything from 'being good today' Vs 'being good back then'. If you were good back then, you were good; as much as if you're good today... then yeah, you're good. But back then you were VERY respected because people would be wondering "how the F_ did he get that good?!", VS today maybe the phrase would change for "how LONG have you been grinding this shit?!".

[@SlickRick4EVER]

You spoke for me. Thank you!

[@Jedo17]

Excellent explanation! And Max was right about the feel. Just playing with a character and figuring out what worked and dominated the competition. It felt like a race to the top of the mountain and then when you got good, you sought out another "mountain" to climb. Crazy how times have changed...

[@powerlifting85]

I remember playing Killer Instinct and MK2 in arcade and eventually at a friend's house on snes. People lied to you about moves, combos, fatalities all the time. They made it seem way more complex than what it was. I found Kano's fatality on mk1 on accident by trying to see if he can do a hadouken. Once I knew it, I fell to the Dark side and lied to anyone who asked me.

[@invalidletterdept2662]

Nailed it dude! It’s a how the f? vs how long you grind? debate and they’re both impressive in thier own ways but more credit goes to how the f of back in the day. Today you could get good by not having obligations, lots of spare time, and lots of dedication. Back then it didn’t matter how much money or time you had you either learned the game by some archaic means and had the execution or you didn’t.

[@sean8102]

I never got WAY into fighting games. But I LOVED KI 2 in the arcade when I was a kid. I played it a ton. One guy I'd see from time to time was super good at the game. I asked him for tips, and he recommended a *book* which me and my mom went to the bookstore in the mall and ordered. Yes, a book with moves, combos etc for KI 2 in ~1997-98. Edit: Wow just found it on google, "Killer Instinct 2 Unauthorized Arcade Secrets" published May 1996 (according to Amazon).

[@fordprefect5104]

People want to discredit people who win no matter what.

[@Lain_S-B]

It’s simply because they can’t fathom people using their brain and not running into their shit

[@helivega299]

If you are a pro player thats great, if you are not thats just stupid.

[@blueisacolor7639]

Or they believe old best pros should be the best in newer games too, otherwise the game is wrong.

[@JaceAce22]

DSP and LTG lol

[@theviewer9363]

​@@helivega299i think in most dituations thats not okay

[@TheAndrewJohnBennett]

Information is Power. I was 5 in 2000 my first fighting games were smash bros and Melee. There were things MY BEST FRIENDS knew and never shared with me. This honestly turned me away from fighting games for decades. And then in 2018 I found Max’s channel and gave fighting games a shot a again and now I’m playing them all the time. Once the information was available on KZbin things became easier to understand and play.

[@30ajgo]

Naw power is power and information is information. Both can coexist together sometimes. You can know all the information about the game but if you ain’t moving those sticks or pads then that information is useless. Gotta put the power into the information.

[@TheAndrewJohnBennett]

@@30ajgo No duh... What you are describing is like knowing all the rules to baseball is different from swinging a bat. Your comment is completely missing the point of what I was even saying and honestly total nonsense ... "information is power" is a very common phrase. Power isn't a literal thing like inputs, it's knowing something your opponent does not know. If I know how to throw fireballs and dragon punch and all you know is punch, kick and jump. I am going to beat you every time.

[@30ajgo]

@@TheAndrewJohnBennett First you say “no duh” then you say it’s nonsense? Make up your mind cause I can tell you that “common phrase” is the real nonsense. Sure you have the information to do fireballs and dragon punch, but power is the force and effort to actually execute that move. Plus the difference in power and information is more like knowing a punch is coming and having the ability to stop it. Those are two different things and should always be.

[@665Iron]

Bro thst happened to me with Melee. I remember folks talking about weight dash between them and they never shared with me that info until years later. It sucked

[@masterbrawler1298]

@@30ajgoexactly. Knowledge doesn’t always mean execution. It can be the reason why a number of pro players aren’t the best at teaching or coaching.

[@SPACECOWBOY705]

Here comes the actual grownup to clear things up for the FGC once again

[@SlickRick4EVER]

As a 1990s gamer, let me say that Max isn’t wrong!

[@theotherjared9824]

People tend to overlook how massive and influential wikipedia and the following wiki revolution was to history in general. There is suddenly a free, easily accessible database that contains any piece of information you could possibly want. People from around the world now could talk to each other and share their knowledge simply because they wanted to. It legitimately destabilized the academic world because information is no longer exclusively found in overpriced books and distributed by professors trained to teach a specific way. Fighting games have the same story, including the pushback by the older generations who can't fathom the modern world and consider looking up information at any time "cheating."

[@originalscreenname44]

Hell, back in the day I used to pick up strategy guides for fighting games because the training modes didn't really teach you combat routes. I don't think a single training mode in the PS2/XBOX/GCUBE era even had combo challenges to help you understand how things worked.

[@SlayerPDX]

Anybody can edit Wikipedia. If you get your education from wiki... you're not educated

[@AwakeTheFall]

@@originalscreenname44 Mortal Kombat 3D era did, Both Deadly Alliance and Deception had character tutorials.

[@soldier257]

Dude my teachers forbade me from using the website as a reliable source for info. Geee, i wonder the fuck why???

[@jameji_phd]

@@soldier257 Yeah I was really lucky in that even as I got to high school my teachers (the good ones anyway) starting moving from "Wikipedia is unreliable" to "Wikipedia's a good place to start and get an overall working understanding, but if you want cite-able stuff check out the references on the Wikipedia page."

[@NicoSleepyLeen]

Information is why the Speedrun community is so chill You always share everything, even a new trick you just discovered, or maybe wait a week or two The important part is to keep it fair so everybody has the same tools and it's just a matter of skill

[@hacksmash]

funny how the community is so chill yet speedrunning can be so frustrating at times

[@Gamber63]

​@@hacksmashit's always 'bout that 1 FRAME

[@hacksmash]

@@Gamber63 and RNG

[@geoffreytasker2097]

I'm 38 years old, I 100% agree with Max here, it's not that the games got easier, which they arguably did, but it's the fact that information isn't gate kept and the learning tools have increased. I sucked at alpha, SF 2, and SF3. But 4 is when the fighting game information age really blossomed. Suddenly I'm the top 20 Guy on sf4, I hit master in sf5 and I usually float around the 1700s MR wise in sf6 after hitting master a month after I bought the game. This is because RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE. I'm sure if we had the same resources and availability back then as we do now, the landscape of legends would be far more expansive.

[@MrTD714]

True but the real point ia the games are easy fuck all that information is available shit games are easier not just fighting games all games

[@geoffreytasker2097]

@MrTD714 and point is if the same ease of requiring information was available then as it is now would those games really be "harder"? Imagine being able to long into windows 95, signing into AOL, and going onto a fighting game website and being able to watch high quality guides on street fighter alpha 2. Imagine alpha two having a training mode and was update to be 1 :1 with the arcade release. Do you really think it would still be Alex Valle and daigo At the top? It could be but the dynamic changes when everyone has the same information and near levels of competition. Furthermore, Remember, back in the arcade days the machines goal was to take your money so difficulty was ramped up to make you spend your quarters. So the incentive to withhold information was higher. Single player game were harder because of that. Multilayer games were harder by people not wanting to lose.

[@TheGaara802]

​@@geoffreytasker2097Don't waste time you're never going to convince a guy like that he'll just come online and complain. Guys like him don't like games getting "easier" because "normal" people is invading his nerd space that's the only place these people can feel strong because in real life there weak, not just him but all the bitching online about things getting easier is because of what I stated before. SF6 is easier execution but so much to think about compared to the old games, di, Dr, parry, perfect parry, you have to waste meter to wake up dragon piunch, the older games was simpler in terms of gameplay. Imagine if we had no information to discuss online like back in the day for SF6 I can guarantee that there won't be as much masters. Gamers online hate everything it must suck to live like that.

[@SuperJJParker]

​@@geoffreytasker2097Even with all the information available, the older games were still harder. Implementing the knowledge you have would be harder due to the older games having harder execution and reduced input buffer windows.

[@geoffreytasker2097]

@@SuperJJParker I said information AND learning tools. if older games had Information, training modes and at home 1:1 ports, none of that which you mentioned would matter because the ability to practice would be easily available to everyone. its like like watching some one speed run elden ring or get all perfects in a rhythm game . the person played enough to learn the timings. its not that the game got any easier, They got better. I'm sure if someone went back and played those older games about put as much effort into them as they do the newer games, with the technology and information available today, they would become just as proficient.

[@Egoliftdaily]

Yep, it's mostly access to information and higher level competition online that is the biggest game changer. Street Fighter 2 was the first ever fighting game I played. Gaming since 1993 but only casual, never joined tournaments. Used to play in the Arcades on weekends. And I'm basically unbeatable when we play fighting games during family gatherings. 😂

[@KhaoMortadios]

It's funny because the last few years, to me, have felt like the only time where I genuinely can actually even freaking _play_ fighting games. Not only do fighting games actually have good online now, making it way easier to play them against more kinds of people. But now if I wanna learn a character I can very easily find multiple character guides on youtube for literally any game out there, and if they talk about weird obscure mechanics I've never heard before, I can also look them up. If I run into a weird character/playstyle and it seems completely unbeatable, I can google my problem and find a solution. If I have a weird misunderstanding about the very specific way a mechanic works and see an unexpected result (something as simple as a grab missing right next to my opponent and having no idea why) I can google the issue and immediately clear it up. Fighting games felt utterly impossible to get into as a kid/teen. I had literally none of these tools and there wasn't really any way to get started unless you literally just wanted to fool around with friends for a single afternoon. Today there's so much information and so much people playing them publicly that it's actually really easy to get started even on the older, more difficult games that felt impossible back then.

[@DPiddy]

Agreed. Not only is the barrier of execution lowered, but now you have accessibility to learn the best stuff. There are no secrets. So with all the information being available online, of course there's gonna be a lot more good players.

[@doris3026]

So, here we are ... Having NBA like era players discussion for the FGC, Man it's insane how people no matter what's the topic, it always comes down to the same old conversations LOL But that tells you how I'm so out of this FGC Pro Player twitter self contained cognitive bubble cause if it wasn't for Max talking about it, I would have never known what were the "issues" with this current generation of Fighting games, I just enjoy it, it's just a new set of rules you have to learn.

[@shaolinotter]

I mean removing dribbling from basketball is a pretty serious change. why wouldnt you discuss it

[@nyrva2876]

Exactly. I'm 45 and I don't know about said "problems with fighting games today" stuff. I don't care about esports or competition today as I used to a few years ago. Losing, winning doesn't mean anything to me, I just play to get some enjoyment out of it, nothing else. I stop having fun? I move on and do something else instead.

[@MOONWOLF7395]

This is why I love Max. He always takes a step back and analyze these topics as a whole and with logic.

[@BenMorelliRG]

For real Max is such a great voice of reason in so many situations

[@theredpriest]

Newman: Because when you control the mail, you control..INFORMATION!

[@ShinRyuuji]

Jerry: NEWMAN!

[@Plasmacat1]

If you grew up during the arcade era, there was always some random mofo that went on the weekends that was so cracked at a specific game people gather around them to see them destroy the game, be it DDR, air hockey, beat em ups or in this case a fighting game. Every single arcade even in the same area had their top players with their “unique” tricks. If you lived in a small town it was even funnier but you could hear about players from other arcades as if they were secret bosses of a game “omg this dude on the other side of town plays Zangief and he destroys everyone”. Then when timed passed you realize most of the time it was just a case of big fish in small pond kind of situation. They were only as good as their competition allowed them.

[@Rain1]

Yup. When you said DDR you took me right back to the arcade. I remember there was this one skinny black dude who must have been like 16 or something when I was 12. He was playing the legend of Maxx on expert and it was blowing my mind beyond comprehension because I was still at the level where I was playing freckles on medium. I was so impressed. Actually you just reminded me while I was talking about it. I remember this white dude with long hair and glasses trying to get a AAA score on freckles on expert and I remember he screwed up somewhere towards the end of the song and he slammed his fist on the machine (not the screen thank goodness) and I remember being weirded out by it.

[@kinoleogeo7998]

At the end of the day, you aren’t the chosen one if you’re the only one given the scrolls of power, you just a dragon hoarding, awaiting the day those determined enough to slay and bring the wealth to the village.

[@XDapologist]

My man on that dragons dogma 2 za

[@kinoleogeo7998]

@@XDapologist *Takes a big fat rip on that Za* Block this mix, Arisen.

[@ianxolive]

*distressed Smaug noises*

[@DayFul]

The challenge way back then is just knowing how to get involved in the community. I got super lucky getting a PC in 2000 as Tekkenzaibatsu's forums where a few months old. I fell into it and eventually connected with the right people to travel and start leveling up and getting better. That isn't going to be for everyone nowadays going online is so much more accessible and it's not a bad thing. Tekken tag 1 was a situation where people wanted to share and show off all the cool new tech that was coming out, Max's situation seems different as a 2D player.

[@paxtenebrae]

Even as (effectively) an '09er, things are so much different now. Yeah, there were like KZbin tutorials and guides and stuff back in '09...but they kinda sucked not going to lie. The level of professional breakdown of how to achieve every last little thing in every game with every character now? It is so wild. I would've KILLED to get my hands on the level of technical information back in the day that you can now get just by typing like, "Cammy SF6 tutorial" into the search bar here on KZbin. Most of the combos I learned for characters in SF IV were just written out notation on a forum somewhere, you all understand that? There was no demonstration in the game, unless you were really lucky there was no demonstration online either! Every tournament, I would just pray one of the gods of the game decided to pick my main so that I could pause, rewind and write down whatever sick shit they did in a three ring binder I kept next to the TV that was just full of stuff that I knew worked. It was SO hard to get good if you were not a tournament monster in the olden times. Also, I think it's pretty undeniable at this point that everyone saving shit for nationals was a big part of why we could never beat Japan back in the day. Each arcade in Japan was like a Dojo and the old ways were not dead yet in the US in the 2000's. Now that everyone shares and shares alike, is Japan full of these like elevated beings that can defeat any American guaranteed? Hell no! Their old advantage was they shared info!

[@VoidEternal]

Gatekeeping competition like how Max describes is actually something that was holding the FGC back for so long. The ego-driven fear that makes you not share tech, means that you're not exposing a weakness; true, but you will never be properly challenged or have to grow yourself to become better. Limitations on player pool will always result in stagnation, but I'm glad that technology has helped overcome that barrier for so many. And it's also why I think Mena_RD is such a beast right now. He'll play anywhere, and everywhere. Yeah, you can say that priviledge on him for being able to afford it, but it's also him exposing and sharing many other communities, and learning from them. It's a give and take, and it really does help us grow as a whole.

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

_Transcending History_ _A Tale of _*_Fighters_*_ and _*_Complaints_* _Eternally Retold._

[@spiffythealien]

I can only hope Soulcalibur VII repeats 1999 and comes to outshine Tekken, SF, and VF **again**.

[@Sgt-Wolf]

​@@spiffythealien And I hope we get a cheesey rock theme for the opening again.

[@rockkandyplay5692]

Could not have said it better than Max. Very mature and thoughtful perspective. Thank you Max❤

[@FieryAnubis]

I'm a vet from Tekken 1 and Street Fighter 1. I was there where most fighting games started. I can adapt to modern games just fine. Same for any other game really. "It's not better because it's not the same" is terrible mentality, and "It's amazing because I played it as a child" is even worse. A silly video game character once said "Memories are nice, but that's all they are." and they were right. That's literally it, detach your memories from the games, and you'll see how garbage it's always been. You just didn't have anything better at the time, or you just liked it because you were a silly kid and had literally zero standards, just like me, a guy who liked fucking Bubsy before he discovered Sonic and learned the harsh reality early. That was literally a month later. People who refuse to adapt to new games are just that, people stuck with "I have memories with Bubsy therefore Bubsy is the best game ever" and refusing to move past it. Move past it. It's ok. Your memories will remain. But the quality of the game has nothing to do with that. Tekken 8 is a great game and the right way to go for the series, as is Street Fighter 6. They both have their issues, but they can be fixed with updates. The way they are now, MTX aside, they're both great games. Sincerely, an old fart.

[@maythesciencebewithyou]

This guy gets it

[@majorlazor5058]

I was there from SF2, MK, Tekken 2. I can say my biggest barriers to getting good was consistent access to an arcade and lack of money. My parents weren’t letting me blow $20 at the arcade every week like a lot of good players were. I didn’t get good at SF2 until it reached the consoles, but it’s not a perfect translation execution with a joystick. When I finally had a job and made my own money I still didn’t make enough to compete, but the guys at my local arcade were welcoming enough to give me tips on MvC2. I still remember them cheering when I finally connected my first air combo 😂

[@Hanashi_mma]

Bubsy was solid but yeah sonic killed that shit😂😂. I still go back and watch bubsy play through on KZbin lol

[@SHINBAXTER]

BUBSY WAS ANYTHING BUT SOLID 😂 =)

[@level3xfactor]

Thank you for once again being the voice of reason, Max. And I 100% agree.

[@yoitssorathewanderer]

Once again maximillion my dude is speaking straight facts from an aging fighting gamer perspective, times are changing compared from way back in the day. Skill set and knowledge basis is just not the same yet at the same incredibly different, makes me wonder what the future holds for the next gen fighting game.

[@themadmallard]

Also, being protective of information was a function of protecting the cost of your money you sink into the arcade cabinet in those times.

[@prlostinshadows]

This

[@SalvationTenshi]

Amen bro! In the early 90s, the games ain't showing you stuff - in fact they were hiding moves, some didn't even had move lists, the inputs were harder to execute and you had to grind to figure out the moves and the combos. Now the games are even showing you frame data and stuff, nuff said, I'm happy!

[@kylespevak6781]

Well the 90s were 30 years ago. A LOT has changed since then 😂 Arcade-heads are the 30 year old veterans

[@DanteMasaru]

Hell, I can remember when arcade MKI and MKII fatalities were closely guarded secrets and access to them, at least from my experience, was from word of mouth and sometimes that information was either wrong or just untrue. This was before the prevalence of the internet after all. Being as old as I am, and as a fighting game fan, I agree perfectly that we REALLY HAVE IT GOOD RIGHT NOW. Personally, I'm glad current fighting games are so accessible to many because from a business perspective, THAT is what's going to sell these games thereby making the likelihood of new and/or continuing series of games a thing.

[@the1trueblue361]

Thank you for having this discussion. I feel a lot more willing to follow the FGC and even have much more fun with fighting games. I'm currently trying to learn how to deal with pressure in corners. Thanks Max

[@emilioulloa6682]

Max hit so many good points in the 90s knowledge was power in fighting games, now is different that weve turn 360 degrees.

[@DarthSpiderMario]

As the size of the audience of whatever it is they’re engaging with (games, movies, etc) gets larger, so too does the likelihood of more and more vocally toxic people showing up. The smaller the community, the more chill it usually is.

[@PrecludeLP]

This is spot on. Fighting Game knowledge used to be arcane. SF6 and Strive have amazing training modes, and there's so many content creators that want to find anything they can make a video on.

[@Velacroix]

Hell yeah. This is my diet of content. I love Max's game coverage, but his insight into the player and design dynamics are what I'm here for.

[@Ock_mantis]

Sometimes max is so damn on point. It's insane. I 100% agree

[@bradybimson9106]

Information not only helps new players get better, it also helps the better players understand and streamline what works best. Its similar to basketball now. People knew the three point shot was good and there was a place for it, but with the analytics revolution the game has become either make a 3 or a layup. This simplifies the gameplan for a lot of teams and a lot of strategy. However, the individual skill of the average player in the league is significantly higher than its ever been. This translates to fighting games well. A player in mid/high ranks may seem unskilled in neutral to professional players because they are repeating the same broken moves, but they are simply streamlining their gameplan to what they know is good/what works. This leads to what appears to be repetitive gameplay design when really its just players maximizing their efficiency of what they know is advantageous. To get to the top will still take immense skill and hard work. And to some who experienced more varied gameplay in the past on the couch or in an arcade it will seem repetitive. I think its because the players they are used to bullying now have a basic understanding of frame data/advantage and meta that leads to the trimming of unnecessary/bad moves. That will always exist in the internet age as long as some moves are created with more advantage than others (hint, that is a necessary part of game design). Fighting games are obviously in the best place they have ever been. But its ok for oldheads to reminisce about times they could bully other players. We all reminisce about the good old days.

[@kadosho02]

Going back to the arcade days. It was learning as you played. Bouncing off your skills vs others. Win or lose. Home ports of games gave us tools eventually. But seeing how much has changed over time. It is great no matter who you are, returning or newbie. You have access to a game with so many more options

[@MrBranh0913]

As someone who use to attend tournaments prior to 2008. It was common for only 4 or 5 people to show and you just have to do a round robin tournament. And these would be monthlies. Even worse were arcade tournaments where the entire tournament was ran on 1 or 2 machines (if you’re lucky) with bad sticks. I definitely agree with Max about how good we have it. If you weren’t in NY or Cali or maybe Texas. Good luck leveling up in any game. You maybe could travel to Evo and maybe a top player would play you but it was usually only via money matches. We have it soooooo good now

[@premiumdude8353]

Generational bias is toxic to every community. Including gaming.

[@jnw85]

Listening to messi vs Pele and Jordan vs lebron debates gets boring

[@fightingrabbit]

On sharing information: back in the day I'd happily share info. Better opponents yield improvement. I'm a super casual and for me, winning was preferred, but exciting matches was where it was at.

[@stefcannon2580]

Your description of old school fighting games and discovering just ‘what worked’ and what had priority sounds exactly like how I’ve always played them since back then, and pretty much still do now. Even without looking at the frame data, it’s possible to just get a sense of things over time and get a feel for everything. I think frame data and such things generally daunt me, but I like to think it’s not absolutely essential. That’s why I’m also glad when SF6’s tutorials say it as much, that you can still enjoy it without all that! 😁 But for those more technically minded, they can approach fighting games by the numbers as well!

[@alessandrobaggi6129]

I agree with you. Losing "the feeling" of a game while "going for the numbers" (=framedata) just isn't for me.

[@kylespevak6781]

This is what I do for a while, then I might look up stuff. All that info early on is too much to make sense out of, and the last thing you wanna do with a GAME is study

[@sinshenlong]

the lower barrier to entry is fine. What we want and what is important is the ceiling- tangible rewards for high execution in fighting games during moment to moment within a match

[@juansanchez209]

Personally, I'm a newer player. I HATE toxicity and in-fighting within a fandom, so I would (usually) NEVER vocalize this. But given the topic of this video? I must admit that, privately, inside my head, I absolutely hate the way any of the SF2 games handle; they feel incredibly clunky to me, and I cannot fathom why someone would play SF2 instead of a game like SF3. But people are allowed to like what they like and I respect their opinions even if I (heavily) disagree

[@Someguy_245]

Vaild, as a new player as well. I think sf2 is neat but games have evolved. It's still the goat but newer games just feel better to flow with. Expect sf3 that game goes crazy

[@juansanchez209]

@@Someguy_245 I personally can't fathom considering SF2 the GOAT. To me, "GOAT" is a ranking where things must be considered objectively in a vacuum. I do not think the year a game was released, its cultural impact, etc., should be considered in GOAT discussions. To me, the GOAT fighting game is this: "Which game is the best in [insert the current year]?" BUT, I absolutely agree that SF2 is the most influential fighting game of all time. I think this isn't even up for discussion and I think that modern fighting games owe A LOT (borderline everything) to SF2

[@herosshade2247]

Nobody likes to bring it up but the SF2 games had random damage so you could win or lose based on rng. Old games didn't care about balance or being fair.

[@ΚρανίΩ]

@@juansanchez209its the goat cause its the start of fighting games, its a trash game otherwise.

[@juansanchez209]

@@ΚρανίΩ Being influential (SF2 is the most influential fighting game of all time) or the first does NOT make you the GOAT though. The GOAT debate is supposed to be (as close to) objective and in a vacuum

[@Dan-Ky-Kang]

People always pretending like the older games suddenly died. Like bro you can just go back, there's still a bunch of old heads there.

[@Necroscat]

As a 40 year-old man who use to be a quarter dumper until Arcades eventually just closed down: These 2 videos put it all in perspective for me. Thanks! :)

[@RitzScythe]

its a numbers game, of course theres more good players, the internet is a global stage youre not playing the same ten dudes at the arcade

[@TheChaosTheory]

Complaining is EVERYWHERE. You go into any comment section and no matter what someones B$tching. The internet has shown us what we really are.

[@Smiles122]

I honestly believe we were never supposed to have access to so many opinions all at once in a matter of seconds. All I hope is that people just enjoy what they enjoy and have a good day.

[@danillomdg]

Omg yes the FGC has become such a whining fest its crazy

[@nooneofnote8453]

I don’t think it’s quite “who we really are” so much as social media rewards and encourages the behavior. I don’t remember the writer but there’s a tweet that goes “I like pancakes.” And the reply is “So you don’t like waffles?” It’s the encapsulation of the problem imo

[@lukedavis3953]

Just an Old Head spittin’ his truth. “It’s so good right now its INSANE.” Thanks for being the voice of reason amidst the negativity Dood.

[@EarthsSaviour]

I wholeheartedly concur my friend! You bring some much needed positivity to the fighting game community.

[@earlstevens4099]

Fax I think it's at a good balance between execution and crazy stuff right now if we lean too much toward execution good luck trying to find opponents online.

[@HelFrostKara]

Absolutely. Sometimes just watching good gameplay can help you improve (not make you a pro obviously but still see stuff you're doing wrong).

[@EXPlus512]

The real tragedy is the new talent can't showcase what they are capable of in games that actually have some depth. Unfortunately this generation of players have no reason to play the old games in order to have a well-rounded opinion of them. There are exceptions but I wish there were more. Imagine a world where fighting games built on what foundations were there back in the day instead of developers choosing to water them down over and over to increase casual appeal. Maybe one day we can regain what was lost if companies are willing to take some financial and creative chances. City of the Wolves looks closer to what I would like to see - it utilizes the mechanics and movesets that were there in Garou and adds some new fresh takes on top of it.

[@slidingcoffee8113]

I used to play Street Fighter IV as a kid but I didn't know English so I never understood any tutorials, my friend used special moves to defeat me while I didn't even know they existed, it was maddening.

[@reggaemarley4617]

There’s a reason Max was able to hit “mainstream” despite being an old school FGC head. He’s the only one who hasn’t allowed the bitterness to consume him.

[@Rekora_Wulf]

Here is the thing. Old school competitive players will be the first to tell you that fighting games have come to a place we never thought it would be. The amount of tools you get from Tekken 8 alone is something I never would have dared to dream. That is why the competition for the game is fiercer than ever before. Everyone has the answer key now. It is all a question of dedication now. This game will show you who you really are inside. I think that's why people complain about rank so much. You cannot cheese your way to victory anymore. You will be stopped eventually. I feel the game will never stop evolving, and that is truly something we have never seen encouraged to such an extent before. New players have no idea how rough we had it back in the day.

[@juggbot4572]

Classic max being the voice of reason

[@shwn9054]

What always stuck with me growing up loving fighting games was the quote in the beginning of UMK3 that knowledge is power

[@NocolasLive]

I think back to playing Killer Instinct on the SNES, if I wanted to know something I had to use the manual in the box that didn't really give you much. Now with Tekken 8 I go on the community Google doc that has a full breakdown of exactly how my character works. and I can watch a stream of the top in the world playing the character at peak optimization. We've come a long way.

[@atlasssb825]

I started competing in FGs around 2011 and my games of choice were mk9 and skull girls. I was AWFUL at SG but it was fun. For as much info as there was in the tutorial i gotta say it was a wake up call that 3v3s was a bad genre to start in lol. Mk9 wasnt much better. What i learned from NRS games didnt transfer over well to arcsys or capcom fighters. I open with this bc back then the only thing you could find online were combo guides and they were not good. Hell i still cant reliable sources for mk9 these days. Despite all that i was told "be grateful" that i had that. Fast foward to now and it feels like theres so much available to us that it kinda became a lot to handle for new or old players. Dont get me started on all the unoptimal and misinfo on twitter. If there is one thing i could never rely on was other ppls advice in match ups if i could even find any. Its the one thing u still have to figure out on your own (and im ok with that). I would say the playing field has been leveled and that makes it so that ppl who are genuinely passionate about their game of choice will thrive. You cant coast off of hidden tech or natural talent anymore. Ppl who grind will catch up and take over.

[@brodieorr5393]

As a long time melee fan, it's been super interesting watching the comminuty go from 5 'gods' that nobody could beat to a point where we have people younger than the game beating players that have been playing for 20+ years due to accessibility of information and access to online play and online communities. The skill ceiling is higher than ever, but more people than ever have the capability to get there

[@Shining4Dawn]

Despite GameFAQs existing when I was 14 and growing my interest in fighting games, I was more interested in discovery. I also spent most of my time playing the single player modes. These days, when I pick up a new fighting game, before going online, I'd rush to KZbin for a quick tutorial on my character's plan in neutral. It just nullifies a huge barrier of entry into each game. It allows me to get into actual mind games with worthy opponents quickly instead of wondering what is it that I don't understand about a specific game's neutral design.

[@SunslifeGURU]

I’m happy you made this video Max. You are a major player in the FGC and people listen to you, taking what you’re saying personal about Foghting Games, even when they don’t exactly understand what you’re saying. This isn’t just causal watchers but content creators also. They see your success and want success too so the mimic begins. I’m happy you cleared the air on how you feel about fighting games because I also feel like the companies have blessed us and the new fighters have no clue what we did to get so good.

[@darkseid9391]

Well said max top tier video

[@iseceepcool2]

The way you describe learning in arcades is how I began learning fighting games coming from a country with a small fgc and at the time having bad English so even the information that existed I couldn't understand. Plus having execution problems due to motor control issues so modern controls are a God sent for me as an accessibility tool.

[@adamdonnelly6470]

A rising tide lifts all boats

[@thekingofbreakfast2472]

I think Lord Knight said it best. "Save that shit for nationals." Gatekeeping information seems to have run rampant in those older days which stunts growth significantly.

[@illadelpahp]

As someone who grew up during the arcade era of fighting games I completely agree with everything Max is saying. Fighting games have become harder yet easier at the same time for anybody to pick up where is back in the day you had to put in time in that arcade on that cabinet to really get good at the game, and you were literally only playing other good players because it was a waste of time playing someone who wasn't good. Especially when playing the marvel vs Capcom games and mortal Kombat

[@nyrva2876]

Games, mechanics and knowledge are easier today (only exception being tekken 8) and there're more good players and more crybabies.

[@illadelpahp]

@@nyrva2876 facts the mechanics are way easier now. Back in the day we were literally creating mechanics for the games we were playing doing things not originally intended for those games. Now most of it is packaged in game. The crazy air combos and chains are way easier to pull off especially in tekken

[@HiItsMars]

Fighting gamers try not to reminisce about the good old days for five seconds challenge: *difficulty impossible*

[@SleekGoose]

You just had to be there 😭🙏

[@brendongame2543]

Agreed

[@-Devy-]

That's just every single person over 30.

[@kougamecs3876]

Kappaccino Redditors in a nutshell

[@FritosTheBean55]

@@SleekGooseI wasn’t even in the fgc before day 1 mvc3. But fk, the era that I did get to witness before esports was amazing. It was like watching WWE as a kid but for gaming. Mainly for sf4 and mvc3 for my perspective.

[@raggaeldestro8609]

I remember in 1992 they wouldn't even say how they did the moves. I had to look at people's hands to learn how to do the moves.

[@radicalcentrist4990]

The people that say "you wouldn't be able to be as good in this ancient ass game", who says I wouldn't? If I feel like putting time into it, I could get as good as the veterans. I just don't care about getting good at games that have little to no relevance nowadays, it's a waste of time.

[@justlloyd7881]

😂😂 Keep telling yourself you'd be just as good at a higher skill floor and skill ceiling. That's the spirit..

[@radicalcentrist4990]

@@justlloyd7881 I'd even break the ceiling

[@hwhatup4086]

I don't understand it. If you want to play an old game then do that. The tools that are readily available now to learn compared to the arcade days is night and day. If Old heads like me want to claim that we where way better back in the day... that doesn't cut it. Give that kid a week to learn the game and then say that. I guarantee that kid who is a full time streamer and has more time to spend is going to beat the brakes off of you. People are just mad that they didn't put in the hard work and dedication it takes to be the best so they blame everything else but themselves. Welcome to the modern age. No one can except responsibility anymore.

[@JayGhost93]

im 42 and 100% agree with max

[@justlloyd7881]

You're a 42 yr old idiot if you agree with this disingenuous BS spewed by Max. He's just telling y'all what you want to hear for the sake of his brand and money..

[@GS-xv7eg]

Gatekeeping was the number 1 technique for fighting game players, now they can't gatekeep and exploit so they whine about it online...

[@zeywop]

Not only is information more accessible, but you can play sooooo much more. Like the amount of matches you can play in an hour is so much higher thanks to better online, better lobbies. I can play people from coast to coast with TWO FRAMES OF ROLLBACK. not even delay. rollback. the netcode getting so much better is also a massive benefit

[@DoritoJet]

the fighting game community is growing fast. Competition is getting harder and faster.

[@afelias]

OH MY GOD SOMEBODY TALKING ABOUT PRIORITY. I think what really broke me out of the priority paradigm was not just hard frame data, but actually seeing the real-time frame data in SF6 Training Mode. Seeing that active frames are TINY windows after fixed startups instead of most of the animation being active but with "priority" stacks. It's like, the moment I found out how it actually works, I felt like I had gaslit myself for decades into thinking about the mechanics wrong. At least now I can rest easy thinking I wasn't the only one being an idiot.

[@charmoyl]

Thank goodness, the voice of reason.

[@Yunglex313]

Glad Max weighed in on this subject because I had thought what people were saying about new players not being able to get good at old games was bogus because older games were not built to actually help you get better. There were no Combo Trial modes, practice modes were worse in what you could use to practice, there were not whole ass databases of information on one game where you could look up stuff, people weren't putting up there own combos to show off what you could do, most fighters didn't even have tutorials in game. You don't start getting that til around SF4 and the rise of social media. Hell I didn't even know what real combos looked like in Tekken until I got around people that actually new how to play fighting games because that visual wasn't out there unless you went to real competitive scenes, and the games that I was playing (strictly Tekken) did not explain this in game. Effectively, the entry level barrier that scared people away from fighting games back in the day is much thinner and more and more people are able to pick up and play without having to venture outside the game to get better, which was something that should, by modern game development standards, be in a game, yet we look back at our childhood gem fighters, that stuff is rarely actually in there. And one more thing, leave it to the fighting game Dad to set these youngsters straight.

[@GourmetSoul]

I appreciate you mentioning the fight sticks. Back in the day I had to learn how to BUILD a fight stick so I could have decent controls at home.

[@kylespevak6781]

F to pay respects cause I'm better on pad

[@Weighty68]

Compared to many reactionary Twitter users and content creators who would have you believe each generation of fighting games is the beginning of the end for the genre, Max is absolutely among the best. I'll never understand why people get pissed about new entries when the old entry will forever exist (of course, for pros, the career informing their takes is understandable). There's a place for groaning that filters into informed critique - critique that cuts to the integrity or design goals of the game in question - leading devs to bettering the experience, but it seems like that "groaning" is where most begin and end their teardowns of these entries. Mind you: entries with clear goals in mind on where to take things coming off their previous iterations' best playstyles. Can't believe this is even considered a leveled take on things, but here we are. Awesome vid, Max!

[@janematthews9087]

The example I always use when showcasing how knowledge and tech is important in fighting vames is how people in the states played 3rd before EVO 2004: People at the arcades back then thought that Ken and Chun were the only top tiers in the whole game, and so there was a lot of people at the top level using only them. But the played the game like it was still Alpha 2. Walking( not dashing) forward baiting fireballs so they can parry it and use lights and mediums to get into target combos. No one learned hiw to kara cancel shit yet and so the best tech chun players had was low forward into super and into mixups. Hell the best Yun player back then DID NOT USE GENEIJIN. And then Japan rolled around with their Yuns and Uriens and Kara Cancelling and unblockable setups and GENEI JIN. And it has never been the same aince

[@Furluge]

3:18 - Playing KI1 on Xband vs Arcade back in the day really showed the difference. I did quite poorly on Xband but I could really dominate at the arcade machine. Most players would go into it with 0 info.

[@crockoreptile]

Man being from GEN Z hearing these stories from the arcade days is kinda magical.

[@BriantDavis78]

You are speaking the truth brother. I struggled to find better players during the arcade days. I remember buying a Street Fighter Alpha combo book for a one-up over everyone in my area.

[@TrashBoatDaGoatBro]

I’ve spent quite a bit of time playing any fighting games I could get my hands on. As a newer player I enjoy this genre more than anything, and yeah I understand there’s gonna be complaints, but a lot of these newer games are really fun, just like the older ones.

[@buns9022]

And from what I've seen, most of these people getting mad about new players aren't even too old school themselves. 09ers and t6 usually.

[@MorganaWestlybrooks]

Thank you buddy

[@kylespevak6781]

7:45 As a noob to Tekken, i can confirm people in Yellow ranks are blocking lows, canceling grabs, and reading my moves. Watched "top level gameplay" of my characters and it looked exactly how i play, just cleaner because they have more experience. Reminds me of when i started parkour and the skill ceiling was embarrassingly low. Ended up getting world's firsts under my belt before i ended my career

[@Caseyisforeverr]

Pool of access and pool of play is more open. We went from a kiddy pool to a fucking Olympic pool level of play.

[@spectrumbots4268]

This is just the "Old Generation VS. New Generation" only in video game form.

[@grimreaperx89ify]

Ya know.... Why cant the FGC and gamers in general just enjoy fucking video games?

[@shaolinotter]

good games would certainly lubricate that

[@rexthewolf3149]

@@shaolinotterand there have been plenty, for every bad game you could name especially AAA there have been almost double the amount of good to great ones.

[@shaolinotter]

@@rexthewolf3149 can you name one where the better player wins at least 90% of the time?

[@rexthewolf3149]

@@shaolinotter I can’t, because that’s never been how fighting games worked unless it’s a mirror match. Because that’s the only time where the only thing that differs between the players is their skill. Match ups are a thing and they will always be a thing. And don’t try to tell me the older games were better balanced because they were not. Go win a melee major as bowser or Ganondorf, or a Super Turbo major as T.hawk. Or a Tekken 3 tournament with kuma. With each game comes new bullshit. It never left.

[@shaolinotter]

@@rexthewolf3149 @rexthewolf3149 you deny that the better player wins 99% of the time in mvc2 or smash bros melee? justin wong and m2k didnt win tournaments on random select?

[@dragonman1579]

These are my favorite type of videos of max

[@withoutthejuice7193]

As a brand new fighting game player, online guides totally helped ease my way into the genre. For years the word “cancel” just scared me lmao

[@argosfe7445]

"We didn't have information" Yep, that's it.

[@allen_4g793]

To add to your video talking about the vanilla stage of these new Fighters. I Agree! Until SF6 hits a patch before it's "championship edition" or equivalent, and Tekken 8 when it hit's season 3 or 4. We're honestly just hand warming right now till then. We buy early, and plug in our sticks every now and then today. So that we're not rusty, and can be as fluid as possible when the real game, or "more perfect" version of these games finally comes online. To the developers credit, I think we'll hit these peaks much faster, than any generation in the past ever could. We're off to a fantastic start for both games.

[@TheDreaminOne]

Well said, Max!!! We really do have it better than ever lately. There's so many good fighting games out and coming that we should be happier instead of whining so damn much.

[@rospoho]

I'm 35, I played Smash Melee for thousands of hours before the KZbin era, without ever thinking about looking for tournaments around the globe, I had my small group of people playing. I remember the absolute shock I had the first time I saw a match between actual pro players, with all their advanced movement tech that made the game look completely different. Nowadays that feeling is impossible to replicate, because information is that much easier to get.

[@joshdillon9637]

"Training mode" in the 90's was having the home version of the game, two controllers and friend who was willing to do the same move over and over while you get used to how to deal with it. Today, you just pick training in the main menu, select CPU behavior and learn. All while having all the frame data onscreen.

[@Scythr2s]

Figured the fgc community doesn’t even when to quit about it

[@TheCrimsonCat89]

I followed the FGC differently: Magazines and internet forums. I'm gonna be real: CT didnt have jack shit for going out to arcades and playing fighting games, let alone near by where I lived. I was a lab monster, and spent time playing with either some family members, or occasionally friends. Over time, the people I was able to play with dwindled. But I fought tooth and nail to keep up with as much fighting game news as I possibly could. Tips and Tricks, and GamePro at the time did a great job highlighting anything relating to fighting game tournaments. It wasnt until SF4 dropped was when I began to play with folks at the community college I went to. At the same time, there werent serious players and the day job I had didnt pay me enough to drive out to MA or NY for fighting game events. It sucked, it was rough. It wasnt until 2019 when i was fortunate enough to drive to events and tournaments. An FGC was forming in CT but it was so scattered and disorganized. Im 34 and I'm finally experiencing the FGC like how I wanted to when I was much younger. Thanks to the gamers guild in CT, i commentate in addition to playing in brackets every week. I went to Evo with my gf (Look for the dude in the red bandana and the gal in the tattoos! Thats us!) in 2023 as well as East Coast Throwdown. Compared to back then, it was hard to go to any FGC event in my state. Now theres Gamers Guild, Hall of Gaming, East Side Games, Fire and Dice, and the online weekly CT3. Shoutout also to the folks in Balance Patch and Game Underground for the MA FGC!

[@Sinultros]

takes me back to playing MK2 in the arcades while carrying a complete moves and fatality list with me, which I didn't share with anyone else. Also, training mode back then was arcade ladder against the CPU.

[@teddi9670]

Im lucky to have been able to play 3rd Strike locally in the arcades for around 3 years.. around 2 years ago. To be able to find people now-a-days locally for older arcade fighters is soooo hard and im so lucky to have been in that environment. Going from local 3S to fightcade was just inpossible for me due to the little slight differences in online play to local, due to the CPS3 hardware and whatnot. I definitely think local vs online local wins and local gatherings should come back. Im sure others can say the exact opposite of that though and its okay, im just thankful for my local experiences, because even in this day and age it still felt way better, being able to socialize in person, talk about strategies, matchups, combos, and in the 3S sense stuff like parry timings, oki, karra grabs. Kudos to those online who can do all that without communcation lol. Its only gonna get harder from here