HF Vertical Antenna Experiments

HF vertical antennas are used throughout the world and are particularly notable for their low angle radiation. This makes them a popular choice for DX operation.But they also have a reputation for picking up noise. Many ham radio operators place their verticals on the ground with lotsa of radials. Is this the best way of installing a vertical? Peter G3OJV gives his views and details of experiments he has carries out.
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[@tamstutz921]

Peter, I would really love to sit down with you and talk about antennas and propagation theories over a cup of coffee. You are a valuable resource of wisdom and experience. Thank you for the videos. 73

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks.

[@CamilleCullen-ow6qj]

Another great video, thanks! Robert K5TPC

[@WECB640]

This man is spot on correct. DX propagation is somewhat analogous to golf. Sometimes you need a driver. Sometimes you need a iron while other times a wedge. It all depends on how far you are from the hole. You can put a ton of power into a wedge and pop that ball sky high but not go very far (like NVIS). Other times, you want to dominate groundwave and so you use a driver (5/8 wave vertical). It's not JUST the power from the transmitter or the "gain" of the antenna but also the takeoff angle that is part of the "where does my signal go" equation. Example: VHF mobiles know that there are many times where a 5/8 vertical is NOT the best antenna because it puts too much signal at the horizon and if you are in the city, the repeater antenna is on top of that 50 story building away from where you're pointing your signal. 👍

[@watersstanton]

Interesting observations. There are a lot of variables!

[@davidwalle5025]

Very good information keep the videos coming

[@petermccarthy5794]

Really good video Peter! I got my first vertical in 1977 and always put my verticals on 10-12 ft poles with raised radials. Today I hang them up high in trees, and I dig down my coax in the ground and noise is never an issue.

[@watersstanton]

very interesting comments. Thanks.

[@86casimir]

Belle analyse de ta part, félicitations! . Merci encore pour cette vidéo et cette belle déduction. 73s. Joël/F8MGW.

[@watersstanton]

Merci beaucoup Joe. Content d'avoir de tes nouvelles.

[@COASTALWAVESWIRES]

My first thought on this phenomenon you’re experiencing is the fact that long path his signal is taking has it’s early hops on the Pacific and coming over the frozen Arctic Ocean late with some gain to give, your signal the other way has the higher amount of gain taken off the hop as you are hitting the Arctic earlier and losing more signal before getting over the Pacific. Just a guess but it’s my first thought. May even explain the dipole versus vertical difference you’re experiencing. 73, Walt K4OGO

[@wshanney]

Very interesting Peter. One consideration is Ionospheric tilt. Here on the West coast USA high angle antennas work better in the early morning hours on the path to Asia. The ionosphere is far from uniform and I suppose that adds to the fun...73, W6QR

[@watersstanton]

Hi there. It’s a possibility but the anomaly is very consistent. If I had a telescopic tower it would be interesting to raise and lower the dipole.

[@brianspilsbury8953]

I have the same vertical as you and it is at least S1 quieter than my 2 wire antennas. The vertical hears more but it doesnt hear better. I also follow several KZbinrs who really push the 5deg radiation patern BUT since we dont know (as you mentioned) what our antenna is actually hearing I expect we tend to fall back on pool skills where the incoming and take off angles of our signal will be equal. I think we would be surprised if we could actually observe them in real time. For now I switch between horizontal and vertical antennas so I dont miss something I would be interested in. I believe that no theory on DX communication is right all the time and neither are they wrong. Brian VE3GUE

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks for sharing. The ultra low angle claims come from modelling programs. But it has long been established that this very low angle from verticals is cancelled out by “mirror” reflection.

[@M0RMY]

@@watersstanton No - although a fascinating subject, and well worth contemplating, this is where I beg to differ. The Pseudo-Brewster angle is not relevant for a ground mounted 1/4 wave. This is an established RF science fact (indeed, in a paper by Zavrel, a professional RF engineer W7SX, (Zavrel QEX March/April 2016) that you have previously incorrectly referenced to support your erroneous claim). You deleted my comment. Maybe read that paper again? The conclusion states: "There is insignificant influence of reflected waves on the antenna pattern of ground-mounted vertical antennas that are a quarter-wave or shorter height." Elevated radials are a different RF scenario. Isn't radio science fun!!

[@EI6DP]

Hello Peter - Great video and lots of food for thought. I wish I had a few extra footage to play with. What time of the morning Peter do you work into VK & ZL

[@alanjones3873]

have you tried using both antennas with one tx other rx, then reverse them? the old way! Not many radios are dual socket but I am sure you will have a switch

[@watersstanton]

Oh yes many times!

[@aarongriffin81]

You may be working short path while the ZL station is working long path or visa versa. Also, your horizontal dipole is bi-directional and the vertical is omni. The orientation of the dipole will have alot of effect.

[@watersstanton]

Both ideas have been written off with tests.

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks. Neither of these explanations fit with the tests we have made.

[@Rubedo777]

It’s a right pan of stew… or as we say in the NW “lobbies” everyone’s is different. It all depends on your circumstances and how much garden you have.🤔 You just have to ‘lob’ up what you can and try it, sometimes it’s a good surprise🤩 other times although you’ve followed the recipe it’s only fit for the dog.🤮 It’s a part of the hobby that most of us can have input seeing we don’t have to build our transceivers anymore. It’s brill when a random idea, resonates.😜 Best wishes to everyone.73. 💙 G0uvl

[@sc20910]

Great stuff. Thoughts and questions here… Firstly I love your occasional use of the flat earth term :). At the same time, it gets made clear even on FCC exams that lower angle is better for distance, although I’ve not seen anything saying how low except on your flat earth friend’s videos. I like the concept of which type of surfaces reflect. To me, a land reflection first should hurt future hop success as opposed to seawater reflection first or first+second. I’ve noticed on pskreporter that I can visually see my ft8 transmission hops, geographically, quite clearly. So I’d suggest you and the ZL try ft8 to see who is hoping where and how many

[@watersstanton]

Yes low angle does get you further, but as soon a multi-hop takes place the optimum angle of radiation takes on a new concept.

[@markmontgomery9722]

100%🌍🌎🌏

[@donnieking2610]

I love to look at your videos kk4ekk Tennessee

[@watersstanton]

Many thanks.