HID vs LED Projector Retrofit Guide - Get it Right The First Time!

Navigating projector retrofit options these days is overwhelming to say the least. HID or LED is the one question I get asked multiple times a day! I take a deep dive on my own personal thoughts on each projector we offer. Leave a comment below. Subscribe to the channel. Thank you!
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We offer many different projector retrofit brackets - Majority of these are compatible with "G5" bolt pattern projectors, which are all the LED projectors, G5-R, G5-BRT, and D2S 5.0.
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[@brettsanderson8680]

Maybe its just me but I actually prefer the power up of HIDs over the instant on of LEDs. The first car I ever drove with HIDs was my first Honda s2000 that I bought in 2004. I didn't even really know what HIDs were or that it had them. I bought the car during the day and didn't drive it at night for a few days. I still remember that first night when i got in and turned on the headlight at it was dim yellow (like most factory halogen headlights at the time) as I expected. But suddenly they started powering up until they were bright white and (in my mind at the time) 5x brighter than the brightest halogen lights I had ever had in any vehicle prior. It felt high end... premium... To this day that's what it feels like to me. When I turn the lights on in a car with HIDs to me it feels like Im in a premium automobile where LEDs just feel like really bright halogens.

[@sleekblackroadster]

I had an s2000 as well. Loved those lights. Got stolen and I got a 2011 sonata with projector halogens and I swapped them out right away to a HID xenon kit that was pretty great as well and lasted over 10 years. When one light went in 2022 I was thrust into the modern market of LED's being confusing propositions as they still are, but I was convinced to get some 200 dollar top of the line LED's and they were okay but not as well suited for the pattern of the projectors. Unfortunately now one side is dim and turning dark blue after minimal use. Now I feel sour on any potentially dinky LED bulbs. Don't know whether I should have just gotten cheaper ones instead, should switch back to my hid and get it working again, everything seems like a weird subpar option. Now all the new cars sold have great looking modern LED's with arrays and great quality so I really wish I could get a complete housing and everything replacement with modern LED's built in and warrantied for a good long time.

[@Anklh_S]

Great vid Caesar. You did two retrofits for me YEARS ago and they are still going strong, save for wear and tear and of course bulbs. Cheers!

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

That's what we want to hear! Thanks for chiming in.

[@markbielawski]

For doing that all in one take, it was a hell of a good presentation. 👍

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Appreciate it! When it's "real talk" - it comes out naturally. This is the same conversation we have with customers daily. Easier to put it on a video and send people the link.

[@SC-sz9ms]

ugh, finally a video that isn't hyping LED.

[@earlejeff3524]

Great video, the gentleman really gets into the required details

[@mrbrowz1000101]

Ceeeasaaarrrr!!! Aw man; how have you been?? Good to hear from you. You did a set...damn it's been 17 years???? Geeezz! You did a set for me back in '11. Thank you!

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

2011! Thanks for chiming in, always a treat to hear positive things from old school customers. A true example of how laying down the right foundation for the business makes for the best customer experience.

[@l.w.c.2519]

On my '15 Silverado, I was super fortunate that the headlights have huge removable caps on the backside, so I was able to retrofit the NHK Gen V LED projectors in them and I have been thrilled with their output!!

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Lucky! Easiest platform to work with. No need to worry if something goes out :)

[@GoldGunner1122]

I just ordered NHK V for my 17 Chevy 2500… should be install in a couple wks. Did u run into any issues on the install?

[@l.w.c.2519]

@@GoldGunner1122 Not really, you will need the CBD (Custom Bracket Designs) adapter brackets to fit the projector into the housing. Do you have those yet?

[@GoldGunner1122]

@@l.w.c.2519 yeah I ordered the kit from which included the bracket from lightwerkz

[@GoldGunner1122]

@@l.w.c.2519 yeah I do. I just failed miserably trying to get the bracket and projector to line up. I contact light werk and they said to install brackets first. Then slide projector onto the post. Did you do this? I tried installing brackets to the projector then slide in and couldn’t get the holes to line.

[@gold94chica]

Great video, thanks for sharing Caesar! This is why you guys are my go-to for everything, and why I send all my recommendations your way. It's so great that you're so keen on communication and working with people directly, that seems more and more rare! Thanks for keeping it real, and staying the right size to be a good "small business". Good stuff.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Thank you for your support!

[@Newyen6MT]

Perfect timing for this video! I think I’m gonna go with HID for the ease of changing bulbs and color temperatures to what I want.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Ability to control color temp and ease of change over during a failure is a huge positive!

[@JoeyLovesTrains]

I do enjoy the MLED 2.0!! Bought it a bit less than 2 years ago, and it’s still running just fine!

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Yes sir, glad you are happy with it!

[@DRNLR]

Thanks for being honest and practical with regards to letting people know companies don’t last forever.

[@teligon]

Truly thankful for the time you have devoted to creating this new type of content lately. It's fresh and totally relevant to all of us. You made an excellent point about the relevance of the H1 projector with the advent of the Micro D2S, which is my primary recommendation to customers as well. But, most people don't want to hear about HID anymore. From my standpoint, the hyper white colour and COST are their driving factors. The DIYers want and prefer a threaded shaft projector, and 2.5" with extreme power, which comes with limitations due to heat management and driving insane power levels. Quite frankly, I don't see any of the 2.5" LED projectors seeing revision after revision as we see with 3" LED projectors and the race to achieve maximum power. One of my concerns is what is Morimoto doing now if this is the end for the Mini H1 and Mini D2S? If the market is trending towards LED, then what's next from MLED 2.0? In my opinion, there is a gap to be filled, such as 2.5" projectors for smaller applications as well as different colour temperatures.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Would be great to see a MLED 3.0. I need to give them a nudge! The issue with the smaller projectors is they never perform as good as the full size versions. Size limits everything.

[@kennyman338]

I'm still using acme h1 and your micro 2.0 on my tahoe that I retrofitted a couple years ago for a quad setup. I used to just have a single projector before going quads.

[@07wrxtr1]

This was very helpful thank you!

[@noti88]

Huge thanks for this video. Am planning another retrofit and was considering going Bi LED. However the details covered here about potential serviceability issues and possible lack of width in beam pattern will def have me sticking to G5's.

[@RichardCrust]

I retrofit my 2020 f150 with MLED 2.0 and the passenger side went out within a week of running it. On inspection it was the wire end for ground to the board on the side of the unit. It is flimsy cheap wire and vibrated off the soldering within a week of pavement driving. That being said. It has now been a year and a half and they have been fine since then. However, from a reliability standpoint, I would go HID in the future for the simple point that I can change a bulb quick and easy without splitting a housing back open. LED you're SOL and it's a unit replacement, no warranty without the old part either so you are without a vehicle for a bit or waiting on a refund. The other thing is heat for northern climates. My MLED have been ok, but I feel HID would be better for keeping snow and ice from building up on the headlights

[@plutonium9]

I had h1 HID projectors in a Ram 1500. They were using all Morimoto XB hardware. Recently switched to some Profile 3 inch LED projectors and the output is so much better I now wonder if there was something wrong with the HIDs. Either way I love them but know if a fan or chip fails, I have to tear a headlight apart all over again.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

H1 is like that. A bit inconsistent. Earlier versions had some bowl issues. You rely on aftermarket rebased H1 bulbs. Its good enough for most people but far from the best solution. Thanks for chiming in.

[@Qazxswer68]

Got the WRX D2S projector retrofit kit from you guys a few years ago and still running strong :) Now I’m looking to do a retrofit for my lady’s base 2020 Crosstrek. Definitely buying from you again:)

[@miklfb6]

Wish I saw this sooner, thanks for the vid. Wonder why my local shop recommended an h1 morimoto hid projector

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

There are only a few reasons why a shop would recommend H1. #1 Reason - They just don't know any better since they don't truly specialize in custom retrofitting. #2 - They want something budget friendly and easy to install. The H1 requires less work all around. #3 - It's an easier sell to the customer when the product and labor comes in at a lower price point. There are many companies out there that offer "custom lighting" but truly have no idea how to perform a proper retrofit.

[@mrbrowz1000101]

Can you guys still get a hand on LS430's?? Or do you leave such a unit for other retrofitters?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Haven't seen any around in quite some time!

[@dragon123443]

I recently got an 06 tsx and upgraded to clear lens and osram nb bulbs. I dont think theres any need for more light on the road. Im very happy with the headlights.

[@cargeekscott1871]

Can you guys show the light output of the nhk m5 plus please.

[@EricGonzalezM]

I have cars with the Morimoto Mini D2S 5.0 and another with the EvoX-R 2.0. The Evos can still hold their own, especially the high beam pattern. The 5.0s have a more even light distribution and wider beam pattern, but honestly, I prefer the Evos when driving. There's something about the way they put their light on the road that makes them more useable in the real-world. The 5.0s are still amazing, just to be clear.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Spot on feedback !

[@bravomike09]

Thank you! Well done video.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Appreciate the love!

[@tigerrider6711]

what is the failure rate like between the NHK units? Also, do you find that even with the fan inside the housing it will not warm up the housing enough to melt ice/snow?

[@Ggg-l6r8e]

None of the LED projectors have the ability to melt snow like halogen or xenon.

[@davidmcnerney3048]

As im researching, you should really update your website page for G5R as it looks like a whole new projector from the G5R i purchased from you 4 years ago. I see why the price has increased now.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Everything has increased since covid but we have always tried to keep our offerings fairly priced. The test data is using the latest version. We will update it. Thank you!

[@juanvasquez3648]

How do you go about retrofiting if your oem housing already has projectors? (Halogen)

[@RazoE]

Depending on the model you have to buy model specific brackets, but some can get away with universal brackets

[@michaelproeber1953]

One thing to note is that some cars use PWM for DRL using the main light, meaning LED will flicker expressly because of the "instant on" effect.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

It could. That is solved with a anti-flicker module.

[@michaelproeber1953]

@@LightwerkzGlobal Yes; additional point of failure not made easily-replaceable

[@Patric-Kole]

I have a Acura Integra, oem is a halogen projector low beam and reflector high beam. Today, would you go for a hid conversion or a LED replacement bulb and a clear lens? Back in the day guys were going for tsx protectors, but that's a bunch of work and cutting to get the job done. Are led bulbs in oem protectors up to snuff? Thanks! And great video!

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

HID conversion if you want plug and play. They work best on projectors.

[@deviantbuilds]

Do you have a side by side of the micro d2s vs. the latest h1? Have an older retro using mini h1 from morimoto and just curious on beam pattern. Also, what happened to the g5 exl? I dont see them around anymore. This video came up after i ordered some retro brackets and a split harness from you guys in the morning.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Sorry no side by sides of the Micro D2S and the latest H1. G5EXL was not super popular and just created confusion so we stopped offering it.

[@aalhout]

Thanks for this extensive guide about different projector types. I have a question about the reflector bowl of HID, do you think the new bowls of NHK is reliable as it is made of aluminum? Can it handle the temperature of HID OR LED bulbs for long time?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Very reliable.

[@andyboy13]

Thank-you for this video? I have a 2014 f150 limited with factory e55s. I'm guessing the evox-r 2.0 is a no brainer?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Pretty much ! But we do have adapter brackets for you to convert to g5-brt or the LED projectors.

[@peterv8459]

i have bi-xenon headlights in my Subaru outback from factory and i had dilema if it is better to stay with HID or goes to Bi-LED projector. I am staying with HID D2S micro now , because i could easily change bulb when she died, not necessary to change whole projector again. And as you said, we have cold and lots of snow in winter. I know that Bi-Led might shines more, but HID is better option for me.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Glad you've made an educated choice to stick with HID. Everyone has different needs.

[@summit111572]

Very nice video. I agree with the servisability of the hids. That's the reason I got hid projectors to swap in my car. I got from China the Sinolyn F1 projectors, I really wonder how do they compare to the mentioned d2s projectors in the video.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Could very well be brighter, just like most of the NHK projectors.

[@pnwtundra07]

Nice overview I've always wanted to do a retrofit im leaning towards them nhk with that thinner shaft seems like less work with a 9006 all the other projectors have Huge mounting shaft that requires more work

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

NHK M1 is a power house! You will like it.

[@rudyolea465]

Can you use led bulbs in the hid projectors?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

You can but it doesnt work properly and its considered a downgrade over using HID bulbs.

[@gtcam723]

Suddenly I wonder if it’s worth buying the aftermarket projector conversion composite headlights, splitting them open, and converting them to a better projector.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Absolutely. Which model is it for?

[@gtcam723]

@@LightwerkzGlobal 2002 Camry. I really liked the OEM projectors in the about 2016 Corolla. I need new housings for the Camry anyway but I could also just use a standard reflector housing and convert it. I don’t have much use for all the halo and related mods (I just want lights I can actually see with 🤣)

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

@@gtcam723 For sure, thats the way to go. Update with the best projectors you can fit inside.

[@XarisKarvounis]

What is your opinion to use led bulbs to bi xenon projector? Except the performance is it more reliable for the projectors bowl because of lower temperature of the bulb compare to hids? Thank you for the great video

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Downgrade in every sense. Always use Osram or Philips bulbs inside a factory xenon projector. That is what it is optimized for. Its definitely not more reliable. They will fail in 1-3 years while high grade xenon bulbs can last a solid 5-10 years if you really want to push it.

[@rudydaberry122]

I got a 2020 VW GTI and I bought these HID projector upgraded assemblies from AliExpress 3 years ago and I’m wondering if yall know if it’s possible/or doable to remove the ones that came with and install some new ones

[@Johnnygga]

Hey Caesar I had a quick question: Do Morimoto 5000K XB H7B color shift at all? They are very neutral white looking, they remind me of 4300K. Which isn’t bad, I like the CRI on the road at night but do you know if they turn whiter over time? How many hours do you think? Thanks!

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Every hid bulb color shifts. The 5000k bulbs are very neutral white indeed. Hard to say how long but they should whiten up a tad once fully broken in.

[@zunaids4036]

Hi. I've got h1 halogen bulbs in my projector headlights. Can I put in LED or HID bulbs, and which ones should I go with?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

H1 HID all the way - lightwerkz.net/collections/hid-systems/products/hylux-2a88-35w-canbus-hid-system

[@RubenSalazar-t7l]

What do you recommend ?

[@RubenSalazar-t7l]

For E46 .

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

@@RubenSalazar-t7l Ultimately HID due to serviceability. We have options for DIY and for mail in service. Email us with any questions! lightwerkz.net/products/lightwerkz-bmw-e46-m3-projector-retrofit-service

[@santoman87]

Wonder if 55w xen would burn the reflector inside the projector? Mid to long term at least...

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Eventually it will. Always a risk.

[@destrxctivex]

Hi, my headlight is using h7 halogen bulb with reflector headlight. Which projector should I get to keep the h7 socket?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

More importantly, what is the make and model of the car?

[@destrxctivex]

@@LightwerkzGlobal It's a vauxhall astra j with separate reflectors for low and high beams.

[@20LF02]

Any recomendation for a substitute of the OEM bi-xenon projector with AFS for a 2009 european SEAT Exeo ( based on the Audi A4 b7 platform)? Headlight manufacturer is VALEO.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Remove the rear cover and send us a photo of the rear of the projector. We have a few Valeo brackets - lightwerkz.net/collections/retrofit-brackets/Valeo

[@Justin28082]

I have a 2011 Camaro SS/RS (Factory HIDs). They are no longer extremely bright. The driver's side light is the worst by far. Should I just buy factory projectors to replace them since the retrofits are only 5 to 6 years? The factory headlights will last 6 years no problem. I tried bulbs. (OSRAM Nightbreaker Lasers)

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

I would retrofit in new projectors as the original ones may be burnt up.

[@philippe94416]

Are there any empty water proof housing to put these on a motorcycle, something like a 90mm biled or bi xenon hella module, but with a Morimoto or NHK inside ?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Sorry nothing that we offer and nothing I can recommend.

[@Dude13450]

You just get an EMGO headlight bucket which allows you to replace bulbs like a standard headlight (assuming the bike has an old school sealed beam headlight) and then just retrofit like normal?

[@philippe94416]

@@Dude13450 Will not work in the space constraints I have. This will probably finish with a 3d printed part or a mix of machining and welding keeping the front side of a 90mm module. Waiting for one not working led module to show up and be the donor.....

[@bankruptsee]

Which HID projector should I use in 2015 GMC Sierra? The halogen projectors are junk

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

I would recommend these brackets to use with your choice in LED or HID projectors - lightwerkz.net/collections/retrofit-brackets/products/valeo-new-style-to-d2s-5-0-g5-r-brackets

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

NHK Iv plus would be awesome and easy to install as it doesnt require much else - lightwerkz.net/collections/led-projectors/products/bi-led-nhk-iv-plus-lhd

[@MoparPentastar]

Is there any led projector that is brighter than the NHK IV+ & V that is known to have decent reliability and beam pattern? NHK Uni K? NHK K5? Sanvi A8 Pro? Anything else?

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Honestly, the NHK units are already so bright. Not much need to go any brighter for every day low beam use.

[@OPretrofits]

I thought the nhk v had the best width and low beam output until i order the sinolyn 18chip projector. High beam on the sinolyn is about the same as the nhk iv and hot spot witdh is nearly double. At half the price of the nhk v. The nhk does have better glass and color flicker. Nhk did not come with heat braid on the wire like the sinolyn.

[@mircea-alexandruluncan8566]

@@OPretrofits can you leave me a link please?

[@nematrafat4084]

Is it legal to put a projector in fog lights? ( in California)

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

No. What model are you looking to upgrade? We may have a specific fog light assembly we can offer.

[@nematrafat4084]

@@LightwerkzGlobal 2016 4runner

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

@@nematrafat4084 We've got street legal fog light assembly replacement for your 2016 4Runner. Check out the Elite Series - lightwerkz.net/collections/diode-dynamics-elite-series-fog-lamps/products/elite-series-type-b-fog-lamps-white-pair-diode-dynamics , lightwerkz.net/collections/diode-dynamics-elite-series-fog-lamps/products/elite-series-type-b-fog-lamps-yellow-pair-diode-dynamics also the full SS3 line up - lightwerkz.net/collections/diode-dynamics-ss3/products/stage-series-3-sae-dot-type-b-fog-light-kit-toyota

[@tyronecharizard363]

I just realized it’s possible to get rgbw headlights on any car

[@pinakbhusanmohapatra8207]

You recommend HID by providing reason of serviceability but LEDs also don't go bad easily. They have much higher life than a HID. Me personally would like a product that has long life and possibly avoid service. LEDs can possibly last over the lifetime of vehicle. LEDs are new technology and they are yet to be time tested but they definitely have longer life. HIDs are good retrofit technology though.

[@KE-q7t]

That’s what you expect, but most companies tune their LEDs to run at 110% brightness all the time, causing them to burn out in a few years. I’m not sure of any LED company that tunes their LEDs to run at 80% power so it lasts longer, because that’d mean spending even more money on brighter LEDs that you’ll never use the full brightness on. They’d rather overvolt cheap LEDs and burn them out quickly

[@SirBrass]

So is bulb burn why 2.5" projectors say to ONLY use 35W ballasts with them, and is that still the case today? I'm looking at putting a led high beam retrofit projector into my reflector high beam and putting a bi-xenon into my stock halogen 2.5" low beam projectors

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Thats correct. Still a valid concern. The smaller bowls are close to the heat source and 50W really heats things up.

[@joseortega1114]

How much can you retrofit hid projector in my 1953 chevy belair headlight i already have the kit i want to pay the labor i have a 3 inch projector

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

For the 7" round we recommend the Holley Retrobright. lightwerkz.net/collections/7-inch-round/products/holley-retrobright-headlight-modern-white-7-round - sorry we dont offer projector retrofits for 7" round lamps

[@future62]

Ive had problems with ballasts in motorcycles, but LEDs work fine. Would love a good D2S LED bulb to run in a D2S projector to combine the best of both (for motorcycles).

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

HID with motorcycle is tough. They draw a lot of power upon start up. There are no good D2S LED bulbs. Its just not ever going to be optimized. Stick with a compact LED projector.

[@scottcpan68]

No more FX-R 😞

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Good catch! FX-R can likely still be found but not being produced any longer. They were highly used by the community for many years!

[@jeremiahlf]

HID

[@jarodfindley9456]

you telling me to call you in a youtube video makes me want to do business with you

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Monday-Friday 8-4pm EST - 201-644-0337

[@MrBlahblahblee]

Instead of retrofitting a projector into some reflector housing I just ended up buying an OEM-style D1S projector housing and put an LED bulb in my D1S projectors by swapping in a new circular bracket to hold a non HID bulb lol much easier.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

You would be much happier with a premium D1S bulb such as a Osram. They are optimized for the projector. Aftermarket LED bulbs inside a projector designed for xenon is just not as optimized. As long as you are happy, all that matters but just know there are other options.

[@kohlpee3732]

HID does not perform well as a lot of peolple think they do specially with low beams. Don't waste your money with HID's.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

Which HID projectors have you used that you considered a waste?

[@kohlpee3732]

@@LightwerkzGlobal Morimoto 4TLR and OEM HID projector for Toyota Venza. When you come from a halogen to HID, you get the wow effect. Now with latest LED bulbs, it blows away aftermarket or OEM HID's on an OEM projector halogen housing with current LED bulbs from Amazon 2-3 times better in terms of clarity and performance. The problem is the kind of light spectrum LED's offer. Label rating of 6000K HID bulbs does not produce the same light spectrum of the 6000K LED bulbs. Majority of test out there are test with a white background and that is not a realworld test. There realworld background out there is mostly brown. White background is gound for testing the beam pattern and light coverage but not the visual effect you see at night. LED's are way to go. I have rried all bulbs from 4300K to 6000K HID's and it cannot beat the 6000 or 6500K LED bulbs. Problem with most people is that, they don't have anything to compare with in realworld and just go by what they see online. What you see online is not you see in the realworld. 2 weeks ago I had a chance to do all that. So I removed the 4TLR's and put back my OEM projector for my Sienna back with after market LED bulbs with latest LED technology. Outcome - 2-3 times better than OEM or aftermarket HID projector. HID may do a little better with high beams but not far from my LED high beams. It's about the kind of light spectrum LED offers that you cannot get from HID's no matter the Kelvin rating or color. Light color is not the same period. Light color from LED's improve contrast on what you see outside. I would suggest that you make your testing with a brown background and you will see what I mean.

[@throwaway7623]

The way you talk about any other product not sitting on the table makes you sound really afraid of improvement and stuck in your ways. For example bi-lasers have created a massive stir in the market for very good reason, and not wanting to educate and test these new technologies for yourself to better your customers is a real mistake.

[@LightwerkzGlobal]

I explain the reasoning for this way of thinking in the video. Definitely don't expect everyone to agree with this logic. I appreciate the feedback and real talk! Little feedback of my own experience on "Laser" projectors- Back when (5 years ago?) the UPS Laser projector came out we were testing and offering it. Reliability ended up being poor. The product was extremely expensive at the time. Yes it was extremely powerful in high beam mode. Laser function offers the wow effect when it comes to raw intensity. High beam is the only time "laser" function is used. This is only good for when you are driving in the middle of no where. High range distance at high speeds. Laser function is less important for every day practical usage for our customers. Again, I see this is another potential trade off for reliability. There is a reason why reputable companies like Morimoto never chased a Bi-LED projector with a Laser high beam function. The majority of people aren't going to buy it and don't need it. Will be interesting to come back to this video in 5-10 years and see where the market is at! I am retrofitting NHK V in my personal vehicle as we speak. Trying to step outside of that comfort zone a bit!