HIDDEN GEM? - Douglas Fir - Tommy's Tonewoods

**except Mark Gaiero! Welcome back wood lovers! Hope you enjoy this episode on Douglas Fir aka. Pseudotsuga Menziesii. Leave a comment, join the community!
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Tom Sands is a luthier renowned for creating some of the most responsive guitars in the world. Since apprenticing for Ervin Somogyi, Tom has taken his talents to North Yorkshire, building custom acoustic guitars from the Tom Sands Guitars workshop. Subscribe to the channel for weekly videos, ranging from Tommy’s Tonewoods and Introducing Episodes, to beautiful live sessions from independent artists. Join the community here, we love ya x
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[@Zjefke86]

I bought two pieces of Douglas Fir (quartersawn, very tightly ringed) I'm going to use for necks, after learning Ken Parker uses Douglas Fir as a core for his archtop necks.

[@carlosreira2189]

It's definitely stiff enough and strong enough. It's not the best for carving tho, and gives the worst splinters. So be careful! Also you can use flatsawn pieces glued side by side with or without center strip, Gibson style. It's easy to get good flatsawn construction lumber. And I've seen DF 4x4s at the home centers. Some of them are excellent and would work for many luthiery purposes. I've found the faster growth fir to be very good sonically, but again not so great for carving. Best of success in luthiery and all things to you and yours.

[@guitarmagic]

If I’m not mistaken, the Disney Concert hall that Frank Gehry dreamed up uses Doug Fir for sound treatment on the walls. I’m pretty sure Yasuhisa Toyota was the acoustician who designed the innards of that building.

[@lsedge2]

I built three electric guitars from my old front door which was originally hung in about 1911 so the tree must have been quite old. It makes a beautiful wood for guitar making. A bit tricky to work with but sound amazing. I also found an old Doug Fir 2x4 on the side of the road a year ago and made a bass out of it. I quite like it...and its free! (sometimes)

[@gaieroguitars]

DEMO of the Doug Fir guitar Tom's referring to: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mn2pmGalgMqVkNE Regarding the density of Doug Fir (and the material properties of any piece of wood)… As the wood scientists have shown, there’s often as much variation within a species as there is between species. I always heard Doug Fir was too dense to use as a soundboard, so I stayed away from it. Then I got a beautiful, well-seasoned, straight-grained, quarter sawn piece and measured its density along with a variety of spruces I had in the shop (Swiss, Sitka, European, Adirondack, Engelmann). The Doug Fir was less dense than about 75% of the comparative sets. Generalizations about the properties of a wood species are too general to be useful on their own. Each piece needs to be considered individually and worked accordingly, as Tom often mentions. It reminds me of a quote Tom and I walked past hundreds of times in Ervin’s shop: “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” (Attributed to a bunch of different people) Thanks Tom for the shout out.

[@gregholmberg2]

Certainly if you can find pieces that are lighter and stiffer than the average, it can work. But the farther you're trying the get from the species' average, the harder to find it will become. Finding Douglas-fir that's lighter than Engelmann Spruce would be difficult, I think. I do like the program at Pacific Rim Tonewoods where they measure and provide the density and stiffness of each piece. With that information you could certainly find some exceptional pieces. Without that information, it's just random luck. I hope more tonewood providers follow their lead and start supplying this info.

[@schorrguitars]

This would also be nice with oak back/sides and a beech neck...construction lumber guitar theme.

[@123Neilob]

When Agent Cooper was admiring the majesty of the Douglas Firs in Twin Peaks little did he know they also made excellent soundboards on guitars. 💪🏻

[@TomSandsGuitars]

🤣

[@johngriswold2213]

To a carpenter, Doug or Hem firs are standard materials, and the main difference between them and "white woods", like spruce, is the difference in the volume to strength ratio in comparison to the weight to strength ratio. Spruce has a much higher weight to strength ratio, Doug or Hem has a much higher volume to strength ratio. This is critical in the structural applications of carpentry, where the weight of structural members is not as important as the strength, particularly in their application as beams (floor joists, roof rafters, window and door headers). A spruce floor joist would need to be much larger than a Doug/Hem one to achieve the same resistance to bending (deflection), crushing at beam pockets, and shearing near the loading sites (beam pockets). For guitars, your philosophy on the importance of weight is critical to your use of Doug/Hem...Since your sound is generated by deflection of the braced top by string vibrations, many think that the lightest possible top assembly that can resist the string tension will allow the highest amplitude wave distortion of the top and thus the highest volume sound wave production. This may not be true. Futher, the use of stronger per volume Doug/Hem fir for bracing may allow for better sound wave production. Definitely worth some thought and experimentation.

[@carlosreira2189]

Never heard much about "volume" ratios. At some point, I'm guessing those construction qualities you mention are as much about knots and hardness than stiffness or ultimate breaking strength. Douglas fir has the edge in those numbers, but not any better than the best yellow pine. Spruces are very variable, but so is the mighty Doug. Fir. In fact they are marketed according to type, coastal vs. interior. If forget which is stronger. Just wondering where you're getting your information. From my reading almost everything in wood engineering is based on stiffness when it comes to spanning things. That's not to say there isn't huge amounts of good old experience built in. Hem/Fir is a grade that includes Pacific Hemlock along with True firs (white, red? not Noble? who knows for sure, but not Douglas fir, which is always marked DF in my experience). The Hem/Fir I've seen is without a doubt hemlock, judging from the pinkish color, hardness, and lack of that true fir funk. For guitars, the stiffness to weight ratio of spruce, which is the highest of any genus taken as a group, makes spruce tried and true. The Noble fir might have the edge on the best spruce, but I've never actually seen or held that species. That's just based on the numbers available from the US Forest Service data pages. In my experience, slow growth DF is not great for sonic qualities, unlike Western Red-cedar and Redwood, which seem to benefit from being as old as Methuselah. In fact, the juvenile wood from rapid growth 2x and 4x lumber is excellent. This is often true of yellow pine as well. Being much less dense, the stiffness to weight ratio is improved?? Some testing might be in order. Thanks for your comment. You bring up some of the many variables which are involved when we talk about wood qualities and how they affect structure and also sound production.

[@johngriswold2213]

@@carlosreira2189 The volume to strength (bending and sheer/crush values) is just intuitive from code requirements and experience. At least in my state, "white wood" like spruce is not acceptable for structural beams and headers while at least Hem/Fir is required. Just to make things a little more complicated, Doug fir is not a true fir;) Wish I could get Southern Yellow Pine out here in the west, a truly fun material for carpentry, seems more creamy. less splintery than Doug and Hem...

[@carlosreira2189]

@@johngriswold2213 Thanks for that reply. Yes, Southern yellow pine is another one of God's gift to lumber! They grow like weeds and take the preservative treatment well. 2.5 CCA telephone poles and dock timbers are readily available around here. That's maximum toxicity. No shit I saw someone making a fence with it. The untreated stuff is a nice utility wood, machines well and pretty stable when dry. Damn those Doug Fir splinters! But untreated Doug Fir will outlast untreated yellow pine by far, which has no rot resistance in the sap wood, the part that sucks up the preservative. The heart wood is where treated pine eventually gets rot. I'm seeing a lot of European wood in the 2x4 and 2x6 (tariffs on Canadian imports?) some Scots Pine (somewhere between SYP and Western white) but lots of nice Norway Spruce, some from Germany, which is really stiff and some from Austria which is softer and lighter. Makes sense, as you get into the Alps. This is the wood of Stradivarius violins, or not far from it. I think Doug Fir would shine in17" jumbos, basses, something where its strength and extra mass might help. As for your observations on construction capacities, I'm sure you're right. I've seen a lot of demo, and whenever Doug Fir was used (1920s to 1950s I'd say), you don't see damage. I know whole ships were built of it, some 5 masted schooners of enormous size. Official span requirements seem to be based on Modulus of Elasticity of the species and grade only. Things like crushing, end rot, splitting, nail holding, nail rusting, slow bending, and a million variables aren't considered. All the best to you and yours.

[@alext8828]

2x4s are Douglas Fir. Check the grain end of a 2x10 as to ascertain whether it's cut the right way and then slice it up for sound boards. I think the shortest length you can buy are the 8s. Price is about $2.00 bucks a foot. That's a slew of guitars.

[@johnggudmundson]

I Live in Vancouver BC and my 1911 house was built entirely of doug fir. It was so plentiful back then and so superior to hemlock and other west coast spiecies that it was a no brainer. Although it was used for framing, timbers, flooring, casings etc, in homes it was usually stained dark to look like walnut or oak (more noble woods as was the thinking then). The old growth trees are mostly gone from BC forests now, even though they seemed infinite a hundred years ago. The boards you have would come from old growth trees with tight annual rings. And because the trees were so big, much of the lower part of the tree grew after the early branches fell off, meaning large diameters of clear wood. The resin pockets are very typical, but I think it may be that individual trees have more or less than others. It should be quite easy to obtain wood without the pockets. In my woodworking experience with it (I love the wood) the pockets do break through the finish over time, especially if the sap is fairly soft. You may be able to patch the grain at the pocket with some carefully inserted sections of wood from the same board. BTW, in lumber yards here in the 1970s construction lumber was all still doug fir. But for the last 30 years it is no longer available except for specialty beam sizes, and finishing purposes (eg edge grain boards for doors and windows available at specialty suppliers).

[@hampshirepiano6383]

It should. Hope to hear it. Hmm, I have a 1918 book indicating that fir was tried in piano SB's and spruce was determined to be optimum after experiments with SB's installed in the same models at the factory. But it should be good for guitars, maybe. Those piano guys of yesteryear before 1900 tried every wood imaginable it seems, even oak, and--no. Guitar SB's are very differently arranged than piano SB's. But guitars have more similarities with pianos than anybody in the guitar world thinks!

[@electricladyguitarsdevonuk1414]

My first year of working in Forestry (1986) was thinning a Douglas Fir plantation with Bow saw & Axe - the smell is truly evocative! Have used it for many projects, but obtaining UK based tight grain samples for guitar making is eluding me at present. Great wood to work with!

[@FiddleSticks800]

A much younger me worked in a Christmas tree lot between semesters. I was always covers in Douglass fir pine resin from unloading and handling trees. The girl I was in love with kissed me for the first time between a row of trees on a snowy evening when business was dead. Needless to say, I agree, the smell of that wood is “evocative” and brings back memories when I work with it in the shop.

[@anthonymorales842]

I have 100 year old rafters from a redo. The stuff is like steel rock hard. Good for table legs and guitar necks

[@markfisher2224]

Back in the late 50's and 60's it was a preferred trim in homes in the southern U.S.

[@andrewbowen6875]

This is why I follow Tom Sands channel as I’ve always loved Trees and wood long before guitars. I’ve come across some interesting woods mentioned in the Old Testament re building Solomon’s temple? Only the best would do with the famous Ceders of Lebanon and there are others mentioned inc one that said it was also used for instruments. The only thing is Tom, is that every Tom Sands guitar is a Labour of love with considerable value and so it can’t be easy in trying to experiment with interesting woods? (I mean have you made one for yourself yet?)

[@karelenhenkie666]

I do and its great, have 1 amazing guitar with it and another top waiting for the right( not scared of something different) customer.

[@sidcooperrider2607]

Doug Fir exists along side Redwood where I live in Mendocino County, CA. Some say the tallest tree was actually a Doug Fir, not a Redwood...Old growth Doug Fir is amazingly strong for building, never thought about it for a guitar! cool! thanks!

[@dannydonnelly8345]

I live in Piercy CA Mendocino county. I'm taking down an old growth Douglas fir 175' has about 60 feet of clear wood. Straight as an arrow. Do you know anyone interested in it.

[@tomdalia5284]

Ken Parker uses it for necks!!

[@robertnewell5057]

I came to this from your video on mastergrade tops, and what an interesting contrast. The Janka is quite high, but I've recently been inspired by Rosie Heydenreich to make a couple of guitars from entirely UK woods. One of your commentators mentions the difficulty of getting DF which is sufficiently tight grained for guitars. I have been using larch and cedar of lebanon (both grown in the UK) and they both have a Janka rating in the 800s. I'm just an amateur and make most of my guitars for friends' significant birthdays. I think a lot of people would be put off by cedar of lebanon because its grain is nothing like the favoured straight grains of the spruces, but I believe Rosie has sold some. It (and larch) go really thin and can be lightly braced and sound like a drum - so much headroom. I'm not sure if there is a UK source of DF for tops, but D Dyke seems to have more or less everything! Might give it a go a couple of guitars down the line. Thanks for another fine video.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

I will have to give Dave a call 🙏

[@mitchelllittle6472]

Hi Tom, I love Douglas fir ! I have used this for my bracing material on a number of guitars and have found that it to produce a lovely sounding guitar. I find it hard to obtain for fronts though. good vids

[@stevevice9863]

Doug Fir is the ideal wood for timber frame homes and barns. It grows very straight and is quite strong in bending, so it makes great structural beams. I used it in a timber frame pavilion I designed for a client and it was quite heavy compared to the typical white pine timbers I have used in the past. The grain is also very beautiful and ages to a lovely reddish color. I had wondered when I was building that pavilion if it would make a good guitar top. I am interested in hearing the guitar you build with it.

[@rgweld]

any tricks on staining it? we are using rubio monocoat and having some problems...

[@stevevice9863]

@@rgweld We used Sikkens Cetol natural color stain to protect it from the weather since it is an open air pavilion. The wood will naturally darken over time and we didn't want to hide the grain. Sikkens has been bought by PPG and the product goes by the name of Pro Luxe. It didn't change the color very much, just darkened the wood and made it look wet. It seemed to absorb the stain fine.

[@JeanClaudePeeters]

Douglas fir is used by Spanish companies like Admira (Manuel Serrano) for mass production.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

For tops?

[@johnlind5819]

I think the Mark Gaiero guitar you saw at the show is both pretty and has a lovely tone. He is a fun builder to watch because he comes up with some interesting alternative tonewood ideas. I know next to nothing about building a guitar, but I must say that set of Douglas Fir you showed in the video would look fantastic with a quarter sawn Wenge B&S! Thanks, John Gig Harbor, WA

[@camarosteve312]

Douglas fir is my favorite wood!

[@wilar9wolf]

Douglas fir as a tone wood is very popular with guitar builders in Peru since back to the 70ths, I use many times exelent tone wood material..for sound board...

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Thank you!

[@russellzauner]

algo brought me here late I guess As a matter of practicality, cedar is rot and pest resistant both - even if equal amounts of instruments were made of each material, as time goes on more of the cedar will remain - tops are the first to go, because they are general soft and thin, so it's more imperative on their wood choice; the other parts are hard and can be hardened further with various techniques and not alter the character much if at all, thereby making them more naturally resistant as components, again, making the soundboard/top even more of a likely victim to time/wear/acts of nature. Doug Fir can be a great wood but since (I live in Oregon, in the woods) we have access to *many* types of wood (walnut, maple, poplar, alder, ash, pine, cedar, spruce, etc) and a lot of it can be simply picked up off the ground if you pay the firewood cutting permit fee (or even free in some areas of BLM). Any downed wood within 100 ft of service or paved roads is fair game and frequently you have to chop up 2-3 foot thick logs to even get through, so if you had the right gear you could just grab the thing whole and slab it out at home. It takes quite a few logs to hit your limits and frequently you can just buy another permit, especially if there are still a lot of tree debris in the area (generally they're run on a tag system, in case you get checked by someone, and they do check). Many of the shops in Oregon also post images of the slabs along with prices - you just might have to wait a couple months for it to get done drying out properly, depending on how fresh the one you picked was.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

That’s so interesting, sounds dangerous if you’re a wood nut!

[@johnlay3040]

I remember reading an article in Guitar magazine some 30 years ago that David Rubio used to get an old cello for its fir top to make a special guitar. He showed that it was such a densewood that you couldn't see the light shone from behind it.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

That surely depends on the thickness of the wood?

[@paulshea7022]

I built two guitars a couple of years ago both with Douglas fir tops and ash back & sides they were quite bright & loud in tone.

[@MountainVoiceInc]

I have a few alternative species that sometimes I also wonder why are these not used as tops. Both white pine and Douglas fir have those resin flecks and are different than spruce in one way or another, but still sometimes a tree has good tone regardless of its species or density. Let me know if you want lots more tops. I have this perfectly straight, clear beautiful Douglas fir log that I have been unable to cut into beams as it’s just too nice to simply become a house.

[@geoffreydonaldson2984]

The distinction between true and Douglas firs is the latter is resinous and the former is not. That of course can be a problem since tiny beads of pitch can ooze out of the grain for years. A friend made a neck out of Doug fir. I saw it down on the beach from about sixty metres away. No pitch problem-but just lucky. My furniture-building friend recommends baking the resin out before working the wood. Western larch is even denser and more pitch-filled-otherwise very similar looking to Doug fir. But why not Western Hemlock -a true “Tsuga” (which is ‘hemlock’ in Japanese)? It is non-resinous, medium density, takes finishes very well and is plentiful in very dense-grain, giant old-growth trees from the West Coast of Canada and Alaska (it’s alpine cousin, Mountain Hemlock, is probably similar, if not somewhat denser). So why not Western Hemlock-topped guitars? I’m pestering two luthiers (who always seem busy and hard to nail down) to custom make me a hemlock-topped classical parlour guitar. Have you ever heard of that before? It’s excellent wood. I think it’s simply been overshadowed by spruce. It has to be nicer sounding than cedar. …I’m guessing…

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Very interesting, just looking at the numbers, it’s could definitely work. The average density appears to be on the higher end of what I would choose compared to spruce and significantly more dense than cedar. The modulus of elasticity is also much higher, I would imagine on account of the density. When you say “nicer” what does that mean to you?

[@geoffreydonaldson2984]

@@TomSandsGuitarsHi. Thnx for getting back. The reason I think hemlock would sound better-subjective, I know-is that, a) I find cedar tops a softer sound than and harder wood like spruce or “mahogany” and, b) I think western hemlock is somewhat stiffer, reasoning thus that the sound would be a tad brighter and crisper-but not so much as, say, maple (ever heard of Quebecois guitar company called Norman Guitars? Do mostly rock maple. Beautiful to look at and feel, but quiet as a ghost and heavier than a cadaver.) I sold my property on a Gulf Island in the Salish Sea of British Columbia (just off the east coast of central Vancouver Island); there’d been a second-growth western hemlock probably released from the sub canopy by illegal firewood cutting (to get Douglas fir-nobody burns hemlock around here) before I bought the place-yet it turns out the grain did not release: it was uniform right across the 24-inch diameter. The area is also afflicted with Weir’s Laminated root rot (Phellinus weirii) which reduces growth of root-decayed second-growth trees and makes their wood-grain look like old-growth (except for the tighter radius and boxed hearts) -denser and more uniform with little evident release response; hemlock is tolerant of the disease (it eventually kills Doug fir) but its growth was probably slowed by it to some degree. Anyway, the tree was on the edge of a steep break and did uproot, blown over in a wind storm, and got hung-up in an adjacent Doug fir where it stayed for years and years. It didn’t look all that firmly hung-up and every windy day I expected to find it on the ground (way down the hill where I’d have a hard time getting at it)-but it never did. The root-ball was completely out of the ground-that is, the entire tree was suspended in the air. I sold the property and told the new owner to deal with it if he planned to build anywhere near it. And that’s what he did: got a tractor up there to pull it down, and then ran it through a portable bandsaw mill. Man! Almost totally clear, even-grained, and fairly dense -maybe 12 to 18 grains per inch. And it was bone dry-which, along with not touching the ground, kept it sound (hemlock rots quickly otherwise) and not-stained or insect infested. Just lucky, I guess. But, man!-what beautiful wood! Typical hemlock light-tan brown-and that doesn’t change colour like Doug fir does. Indeed, it’s known for its stability, once cured and dry, for its excellent gluing properties, and for its easy acceptance of stains, oils, and paints. Two adjacent boards bookmatched would easily make a full-size acoustic. I do like you: I knock on the wood to hear its timbre. Sounds good to me. And I’ve always wanted to try one made of hemlock. Now, my new friend-the new owner-plans to make Tele- and Strat-style electrics out of it (the rest he planed and panelled the ceiling in the second floor they built on my old house-looks fantastic-I love that colour: not too overstated.) No worries: if he has enough left over I can grab some-but he doesn’t build acoustics-the guy with the Doug fir neck does and I’ll go talk him up. Here’s what I need to do: find some old-growth western hemlock (perhaps the denser mountain hemlock might do-not as plentiful or accessible, but I have ways…). The whole Great Bear Rainforest is covered with cedar-hemlock stands -ain’t no shortage of the stuff. Next, drying: it’s non-resinous, dries good, not much defect. Next, design: I’m partial to parlour guitars but I wonder if the kind of wood it is recommends a full-size dreadnought. That’s the question. Also, neck-what to do? Bracing? &c. I’m a subscribe to your channel so if you ever try it out I can hear about your ideas on it. Plus I generally like your work. Thanks again for getting back!

[@kinnjohn]

Adrian Lucas uses DF in many of his fabulous guitars.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

You’re right!

[@carlosreira2189]

DF is probably going to be used more and more. It can be really heavy, but has some of the highest stiffness of any North American softwood. Only some Southern Yellow Pines can beat it. Stiffness is going to be relative to density with DF as a rule. The denser the DF the stiffer, but the stiffness to weight ratio is going to be fairly constant, meaning tap tone will be similar. Having handled many pieces of old growth DF, I can say that it has never given a higher tap tone than an equivalent piece of spruce. Therefore it's going to favor the bass as a fundamental. Overtones, IDk. Wonder if anyone has made any guitars with it and their results.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

I start the video talking about a guitar made with a fir top.

[@carlosreira2189]

@@TomSandsGuitars Thanks, brother Tom. I'd like to hear it. I know DF topped mandolins have been made with good tone, and it would certainly work well for archtops. They just tore out some old DF beams in a building next door. Would yield dozens of tops. In the 1920s to 50s DF built America.

[@kjv-public-domain]

Are there any vintage examples to check for age related cracks?

[@TomSandsGuitars]

I believe it was used in renaissance era instruments. I can’t think of many species immune to cracks if not well maintained

[@arnoldschnitzer1696]

The problem I've noticed in larger string instruments is the tendency for DF to split.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Where have you seen that?

[@arnoldschnitzer1696]

@@TomSandsGuitars on some string basses I repaired.

[@brentwalker8596]

VG (vertical grain) fir is often used for doors and windows.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Sure is!

[@onehandslinger1475]

The fir's(Abies Alba) needles are actually flat and blunt, unlike the spruce's(Picea abies) which have triangular section and sharp tip. The douglas needles are flat like the fir but the tip is sharp, but indeed they are soft and do not prick. When rubbed between your palms they release a citrus smell. It's a hard, strong wood. The Kaskelot (meaning sperm whale) tall ship which I visited once has the main mast built out of one single 120 yo douglas trunk.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Thanks! Sounds like you know a thing or three about trees!

[@onehandslinger1475]

@@TomSandsGuitars not to brag, but I studied dendrology. I still remember some of it.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

@@onehandslinger1475 I would totally brag about that. Thanks for getting involved.

[@robotsongs]

All my life I've known "Doug Fir" as the crap you get at Home Depot to build (chronology,growing up) a cart frame, then skateboard ramps, then shelving, then home add-ons. I've NEVER viewed it as clean/close/straight-grained enough, dry enough, and wide enough (I've never seen it bigger than 4x6) to be suitable top/tonewood. That's crazy your friend was able to source those boards. I've never seen it milled like that. This stuff also always seemed WAAAAYYY too soft to be suitable for a guitar, even more so than cedar. I'm quite interested to see where this goes.

[@richarddlewis5422]

Question: How would this wood react to a torrification process? Would it solve the problem with the pockets of resin?

[@2musiclover534]

Liked. What is 'High Q' - on a different topic, have you built an all Koa guitar? Wondering what you think if such a guitar would be good. :)

[@mandolinman2006]

I apprenticed briefly under someone that built one. His go-to for decades on bracing has been Douglas fir.

[@dantahoua]

I use it for bracing! 😊

[@TomSandsGuitars]

That's cool!

[@jan_phd]

I have 180 very tall (over 100') Douglas Firs, in my backyard.

[@dalecostich8794]

i have built 3 box style guitars from a 53" dia. tree that i believe to be 6 hundred years old (40 rings per inch) ...hope to follow your build

[@patrickroe5926]

Like with many woods, it wasn't necessary to think about fir as a tonewood. Now, traditional wood supplies aren't so available and alternative woods are becoming more acceptable.

[@hellomate639]

It has a very high specific modulus - stiffness to weight ratio, basically.

[@andrewbowen6875]

I’ve only just discovered what a beautiful looking wood Sycamore is Tom? Passing through the village of Windermere I came across a shop selling bespoke furniture by a guy called Peter Hall and I couldn’t believe that one of my least favourite trees Sycamore has this blonde, figured look to it🤯 I’ve since noticed that Rosie H of Turnstone guitars has used it for necks but I’ve wondered how it would be as the back n sides? Great content as always Tom and big up to all the superb live acts you have on👍

[@Ibaneddie76]

Doug Fir is a great wood I've built a few electric guitars using it and they came out really nice. The wood I used was extremely old so the wood is very dry and stable witch was a good thing for an electric guitar body, I actually sourced the wood from beams taken from a barn header that was built in the 1800's and I'm currently getting ready to build a matching set of guitars for a contractor who got me the wood from a restoration project of a turn of the century Victorian style home in the foothills of Northern California it's great stuff! We are incorporating some of the old fasteners and nails into the build so it should be interesting! Love the videos!

[@davidmoye2354]

People use it for houses all the time

[@TomSandsGuitars]

I’m not talking about houses.

[@alderaudio]

I am a material scientist turned microphone builder currently building my first acoustic. I went with Port Orford Cedar for the top as an interesting alternative wood, but Doug fir is next on my list. Both appear to be more dense as well as possibly more stiff than spruce, so I'm curious to learn how they compare if built thinner. I would love to hear the result of a Doug fir top recorded well, there really aren't many good examples on KZbin. If it could be done well, there seems to me to be a lot of potential for fun builds from old reclaimed Doug fir beams.

[@johngriswold2213]

It's a little spendy, but the Gore/Gilet theory and build pair of books is the best reference on both I've ever seen, and well worth the investment if you want to build several guitars. As a scientist you might also understand all the math;) In those books you get a very deep dive into sound production and perception, and a sonic method to determine material stiffness and tuning of plates and the closed box to avoid/deal with "wolf notes", and manipulate sound color, volume, and balance.

[@Birkguitars]

Fascinating stuff as ever. The only time I have ever used Douglas fir was creating some skirting board to match the original ones in our victorian house. It was part of a larger project all made with reclaimed timber so the stuff we got was probably over 100 years old. It had been bandsawn to size so the first task was getting rid of the saw marks. I only had hand tools but I had a pretty hefty Makita belt sander so I whacked on an 80 grit belt and laid in. Total failure. Barely a mark on the wood. It was like trying to sand a piece of fecking granite. I have worked with ebony when making fingerboards and I swear the stuff I got for the skirting was harder than the ebony. All I could do was labour away with the belt sander but it took ages and my arms were close to dropping off by the time I finished. Each piece was about four feet long and nine inches deep and took hours of work just to get smooth. I don't know if it was the age of the wood or the conditions where it was used but it was definitely the hardest piece of timber I have ever worked. Maybe it is like oak that is relatively workable when green but turns to stone over time. If so that could have an interesting effect on an acoustic guitar.

[@aaronlucasguitars]

As a wood lover, each installment of TTW is like a movie from my youth that I can watch over and over, always fantastic!

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Thanks for watching dude 🖤

[@Earthstein]

It splits too easily.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Does it?

[@natejohnson8490]

I’m just wrapping up my first Doug Fir build! Got about 20 sets on hand… there is a 600+ year old Doug Fir by the name of Sylvia down the street. Can’t wait to see what you do with this!

[@peterasmussen2933]

made a style 5 Martin copy with D Fir top, went well.

[@henrycross8776]

What is the "Q" of a wood ?

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Sustain, basically. The opposite of the damping effect

[@Vercz10]

Think Adrian lucas uses doug fir a lot

[@RAkers-tu1ey]

I know why. During the "everything Japanese" craze in California in the 80's, I built a lot of furniture and cabinetry (including a very large custom hot tub / sauna area ) from clear Doug Fir. It is stiff, splitty, sappy, hard to bend, has unpredictable grain "pop ups" , and it is heavy. I am talking here about kiln dried. clear fir - riff cut, flat sawn, and quarter sawn. I built a conference room which required a 16' table with a 4" wide curved banding, which had to be resin stabilized to allow the bends without splitting and grain pops. I had to return twice to fix pop ups in the finished top where sections of face grain just popped up, many weeks after finishing (wishing I had stabilized the top too). I have no doubt that DF can be made into a guitar (heck, you can make hemp into a guitar) but I think other woods are better suited to lutherie for weight and tone, and workability. Now, if one is building a house....

[@RAkers-tu1ey]

Likely good for ribs though, for all those stiffness qualities, and someone below says necks.

[@markbader4942]

Pseudotsuga menziesii, menzeez-ee-eye.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Gesundheit!

[@markbader4942]

@@TomSandsGuitars haha!

[@bearshield7138]

Thank you This is helpful

[@scottwagner751]

I have some split rounds of Douglass Fir sitting around drying (it's a common in western Montana where I live) that I hope to someday use. Is yours a coastal variety or more of an inter-mountain one? I am glad to see others using it.

[@barrywhaley958]

I have built 2 OM s with Douglass fir , and currently building 2 - 30s Gibson -00s ! You will love the results !!!

[@terrywright7893]

Hope you had a high ol’ time in NY!

[@aaronlucasguitars]

Yah man!!!!

[@chillpillology]

can’t wait to hear it!! fr fr

[@thepragmaticluthier]

SOMEONE DOES USE IT. Since 1992 I have built nineteen guitars with Douglas Fir (sawn, not split) tops. They have all been excellent instruments and have been stable. You won't need to wash with naphtha or acetone before you finish. While your recommendations for back and rim material is typical, consider Hard Maple, Cherry, White Ash, Walnut, Sycamore or even Black Locust.

[@danielcastrodelamata8873]

I just was looking for douglas fir as a tonewood since there’s a 400 year old beam in a local lumberyard and i wanted to buy it for electric bodies

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Buy it right now!

[@gary6676]

I've made several 52 type Telecasters from 200+ year old Douglas Fir that was originally rafter's in my barn. They're great. Something about how the pitch and resin in the wood has aged over the years of extreme heat in the summer, and extreme cold in the winter. Go get it if you can.

[@gregholmberg2]

I think it would make a top that is too heavy and so not very loud. I used the thicknessing formula in "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar" by Trevor Gore to calculate thickness using the average density and stiffness numbers for several species as listed on the wood database website. For Englelmann Spruce I got 2.81mm and 156g. For Sitka Spruce I got 2.80mm and 172g. For Douglas-fir I got 2.89mm and 212g. In other words, a Douglas-fir top panel would be 36% heavier than Engelmann Spruce or 23% heavier than Sitka Spruce. Given that the performance of the top is all about how much mass the strings have to accelerate, I think this explains why Douglas-fir is not used for tops. Lutz, Engelmann, and Western Red Cedar would make the lightest tops. The frequency response and tone then comes down to the braces. The top panel is just there to move air. However, I think it would make a very stiff and lightweight neck. Ken Parker uses Douglas-fir for the necks of his acoustic archtops.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

Very interesting and I agree with the science and logic to a point. I wonder about your thoughts on mahogany and Koa topped guitars? I like that book, I find it very stimulating and I have great respect for the amount of work which has gone into producing it.

[@gregholmberg2]

@@TomSandsGuitars Well, I have no experience with them myself, but using the formulas again and species averages, I get 3.22mm and 274g for Honduran Mahogany, and 3.22mm and 283g for Koa. So, way heavy. Heavier than the soft Maples, Cherry, or Walnut.

[@TomSandsGuitars]

@@gregholmberg2 it’s fascinating stuff. My thoughts are that these numbers and idea are useful tools/ways of thinking. Averages are a good guide but can sometime be blinding, wood is so variable and so in my view it’s crucial to develop one’s intuitive sense of what an individual piece of wood is doing. As Mark Gaiero rightly mentions - in theory, practice and theory are the same, in practice, they’re not. Thanks for watching and for commenting! 🙌❤️

[@gregholmberg2]

@@TomSandsGuitars Yes, certainly individual pieces of wood vary considerably, and you can find some exceptional pieces sometimes. One should measure every panel (dimensions, weight, and three frequencies with a mic/computer) and calculate thickness for each panel. And I wish every supplier of wood for stringed instruments would provide these measurement for each piece they sell. Pacific Rim Tonewoods has started to do that. Of course, as you look for exceptional pieces of wood, the farther you look from the species' average, the rarer they become. At some point it's just easier to go with the Lutz, Engelmann, or WRC rather than keep looking for that one strange piece of extra-light and extra-stiff Mahogany.

[@petehowlett3966]

Used it back in 1974....

[@jcarry5214]

I always wondered about Doug as a tonewood. My experience with it is that it's almost metallic, like spring steel. There's a lot of excessive weight by volume but it is very strong and it is FAST, which makes me think in the right configuration it could be loud as a piss on a car roof. But it also has some elastic memory, which might make it dull. Less memory than hardwoods by pound but faster and stronger than spruce by volume. I suspect finishing is going to be easier than you think. Anxious to see how it goes.

[@netterstyl]

He mentioned some of the potential reasons why it isn't generally sold as a tonewood, but I can tell you this much: It makes for beautiful knotty paneling in my den, which would otherwise at around the same time have been relegated to that horribly out-of-date knotty pine stuff of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. As is, it's stood the test of time. Very elegant in it's appearance, and not dated-looking. Lovely deep-orange color (not the greenish undertone of pine), and perhaps that's another reason why it isn't so well-suited as a tonewood - it would put off too much of an undesirable(?) orange cast when clear coated. After lots and lots of tapping, I've come not to rely so much on tapping, at least in the very early stages of the build or pre-build. Even something as "non-tap oriented" as installing the purfling can have a dramatic effect on the tap-response of the top. Most important I think is just not going crazy with "out-of-spec" experiments (esp. overbuilding) and letting the instrument gods shine down on you because you've done your homework along the way. Such as...running by the top with an open can of finish, and hoping enough fumes will settle on it to provide no more than .0000000001 microns of protection. I've found that _nothing_ will kill the tone any faster than over-applying finish to the top. Manufacturers tend to hose it on, which saves a lot of labor in the long run, but fogging it on produces optimum tone.

[@MalenyFieldsForever]

That's very interesting. I'm glad you shared. I'm curious to know how you voice a soundboard without tapping?