Hidden Wisdom or Heresy? The Enigma of the Gospel of Thomas

[@TupacMakaveli1996]

Bart is always a fresh breath when it comes to bible, Jesus and gnostics. He actually initiated me to a proper meaningful study of these concepts. Always learnt from him a lot. Thanks Prof. Bart.

[@Ardonmachinery]

Megan’s glasses never disappoint 😂

[@Fee___]

:D love them

[@pagandeva2000]

I recognize some of them from Zeelool. They have AWESOME frames.

[@robinstevenson6690]

I really like the way Bart describes gnosticism. It's very sensitive and empathic, and it's very flexible. It doesn't try to force "gnosticism" into a very narrowly-defined box. I also like the way that Bart gently and subtly connected "gnostic" with "knowledge." This is, also, the way the gnostics seem to have viewed themselves, and many of them considered themselves to be the very truest Christians, because they were pursuing the most intimate or purest knowledge of who Jesus was and what he was about.

[@MarleneOaks]

I would love to join BSA, but as a retired minister and teacher, 84 years old, I cannot spend that much money. I greatly enjoy all of the KZbin videos and the website. I am constantly gthankful.

[@greenmeadow-m3b]

I am glad Bart is back!

[@ebionitemystic]

I have so much respect for Dr. Ehrman so it was very reassuring to hear him say that he believes the Gospel of Thomas used its own sources, and that it wasn't reliant on Matthew and Luke. It's become very trendy in the past couple of years to state unequivocally that Thomas used Matthew and Luke. However, I tend to agree with Helmut Koester's treatment of the Gospel of Thomas in his book Ancient Christian Gospels. It's really excellent for those that haven't read it yet.

[@Valdagast]

Discovering the Nag Hammadi texts must have been quite jar-ring.

[@jttj742]

I see what you did there

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

Ba-Dum Ba-Pssht 🥁 {:o:O:}

[@artawhirler]

Valdagast, folks! He'll be here all week! Don't forget to tip your servers and bartenders! And hey - you gotta try the fettuccine! It's fabulous!!

[@robinstevenson6690]

The section of this around 38:00 is absolutely WONDERFUL, and an extremely profound statement of what might possibly be one of Jesus' most profound and thought-provoking teachings. I feel at this point that Bart and Elaine Pagels are thinking along very similar lines. Thanx, Bart, for this!

[@Fee___]

Gospel of thomas is entertaining and brilliant

[@Fee___]

Yaaay i'm happy that you guys are talking about the gospel of thomas!!!!! Its my favorite gospel ever!!!!🙏🏻🥰🥰😘😘i'm excited

[@jonmustang]

What a great text and I appreciate that Dr Ehrman discusses it philosophically, elucidating the theological concepts with interest. Fans of eastern "self realization" teachings tend to especially enjoy the Gospel of Thomas. @42:00 regarding whether such teachings could've been circulating in the area at the time of Jesus, consider that King Ashoka sent out thousands of Buddhist missionaries in the 3rd century BC to places such as Antioch. Not to mention, if there is indeed some kind of underlying realization regarding the nature of our own consciousness, then it wouldn't be limited to geographical or cultural constraints. It would be evident to anyone through intense meditation or contemplation.

[@michaeltelson9798]

There was a carved wooden Buddha found in Egypt, 2nd or 3rd CE. The wood was a native to Egypt as well. Texts from that period also mention Buddhist teachers.

[@kaloarepo288]

I'm a bit hazy on the subject but I read once that in the reign of the emperor Augustus(contemporary of Jesus) as part of a delegation from an Indian king, either a Hindu or Buddhist ascetic, set himself alight, to prove the superiority of the spiritual over the material and that death was not to be feared.

[@acex222]

@@michaeltelson9798 Namo Buddhaya, dharma always wins.

[@Allogenes-jd8uq]

The caves round about Qumran may have been where the intense meditation was happening. It's interesting to consider the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered barely a year after the Nag Hammadi Library. Carl Jung had a name for this sort of thing, it's called synchronicity. The Gnostic wisdom in the Gospel of Thomas is entirely compatible with Buddha Dharma, in my opinion.

[@Cynicallyskeptic]

I like the Modern Gospel of The Clone Wars… or Buddhist Methodist Christianity

[@jamesshepherd6491]

I find it interesting how some regard Paul's writings as being antithetical to gnostic thought. However, there are some good arguments that Paul's writings are consistent with gnostic thought.

[@dallasgraham2813]

Certainly more Greek than Jesus

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

I've liked Bart Ehrman and Digital Hammurabi for years, but that "uplifting", "majestic", "inspirational" music on the course advert had me fast forwarding. {:o:O:}

[@welcometonebalia]

That was indeed painful.

[@rdklkje13]

Thank you for bringing back the intro check-in! Getting a feel for who people are is so important for putting what they say into context 🙂

[@justtosuffer398]

Can't wait for Bart's next book! I've recently bought a few and read them chronologically. Really great stuff.

[@macroman52]

I remember seeing a TV program about it in the late sixties. I got the impression that it was the earliest Gospel, a bit like what I now know as Q, but I knew nothing then.

[@Fee___]

I feel like the gospel of thomas is actually suitable for our time. In the past no one would understand or even try to understand it cause everyone were peasants or workers there were different social classes and believing something or fearing of something was more common than today so the 4 gospels make sense for the people in the past to be a christian. However g of thomas is pushing you to think and find the answer by yourself it makes more sense for todays population people are asking and searching g of thomas is the only gospel that made sense to me as an atheist.. after reading the g of thomas i do tend to find the teachings satisfying in my soul searching journey.. and i do think and search about maybe being a christian/agnostic or christian/ buddhist... i absolutely dont believe jesus' magical power and those fhings that doesnt make logical sense.. however the spiritual teachings are amazing and it helps me not to dwell in materialistic world and about my insecurities and this and that..

[@E.Simur.]

Не знаю языка, но смотрю видео с переводом от нейросети. Спасибо большое за интересные темы!

[@MichaelYoder-e8g]

I found that some of the beginning parts of Thomas to be very "Eastern", almost Taoist in concept "until you make the outside like the inside...the male like the female..." very much like Taoism - yin and yang and non-dualism.

[@robertdargan1113]

I agree. Also very Buddhist & Adviata Vedantic in its perspective.

[@SiqueScarface]

53:15 This reminds me of some snake oil advertisements: "Doctors upset, because random guy discovers magic cure."

[@tarikramadaan3342]

Nobody in the bible had a bible

[@SeiVeldtNoraCramRoines]

muZ ziK hiM👈 Hymns 🎶 HeiR meSsaGe Test =moT huR= Liberty MaDrE Whisper RoaH Qawl 🐎 MahaR Aging My Mirror's MariamSSmairaM 🥵 S'eh SED MaarS yeW👈 essay 🐝 GOAD 🪵 LogoS 🌚 Sabel Ble=Cancer 🦀 BarC at the Moon 🌚 EnooK KnomE leDgeR MarC=Srink ☕ Ethan 🥗 Well 🐛 bA huM 🦋 mE DinA 🪜 maGdeL7inn tOwaR Somerset Hannah🙃yeuueH 🐝 Yankee 👋 Decipher= Tyde Rhode🌹 Sei 🎀 Veldt 🍠 Newe Jung Carl gustavvatsup TestAMent 🪜 TheaR Switch deR Launds 🌈 Assurance gentileSSelitmap ReMembeRRedMeMer 🥵 MaarS heRmaN🪱 HART=deR tunnelS🙃SlawNf aGaiN vVE PeY aGaiN👈 Y'all TobiaS

[@tl7988]

Well technically, many of them had access to Jewish scripture (Old Testament).

[@KarmasAB123]

Yeah, they did. The Library of Alexandria

[@melissaadams8902]

Even if they did, the literacy rate was low.

[@tl7988]

@@KarmasAB123 i think you are missing the commenter’s point, which is that the New Testament wasn’t written yet. As in the stories about the people in the New Testament are written after the supposed events happened…

[@mcosu1]

Did the Desert Fathers use thomas?

[@Fee___]

Desert fathers hahahah lolll

[@missanne2908]

When the canonical New Testament books were determined, the Church Fathers commanded all Christians to destroy copies of any other writings IIRC. Since the Nag Hammadi texts were preserved, they must have had some special worth to their owners.

[@Book_Bird]

Love the Tardis mug

[@gregwright9797]

Thank you

[@robinstevenson6690]

Bart says "most scholars date Thomas to the 120's, 130's, 140's," but this confuses the actual Thomas (which we have today) with the earliest drafts of Thomas. The distinguished scholar Helmut Koester (Elaine Pagels' professor/mentor) argued for a much earlier dating of the earliest copy of Thomas (pre-60, C.E.), and Pagels has agreed on this.

[@missanne2908]

If you look at the first sentence of saying fourteen in the Gospel of Thomas, it encompasses the teachings of Mathew 6:2-18. I always thought that the brevity of Thomas makes it seem like the earlier version to that of Matthew.

[@mediocrates3416]

I suspect the source for the GofT was an oral gospel of Judas of Gamala; originating around 1 CE. I know, crazy; but i think it makes sense. Judas of Gamala had a week long meditative experience wherein he, as Christ, answered the disciples questions.

[@missanne2908]

This is a side issue, but Judas of Gamala led the resistance to the Roman census of Judea in AD 6, imposed by Quirinius. If the teachings of JoG and Jesus are similar, might Luke's nativity account not only be way to explain Jesus' being born in Bethlehem, but also to differentiate him from JoG by showing Joseph obediently registering for the census? Also, might the saying 'Render onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's' found in the gospels of Matthew and Mark be another way of differentiating between Jesus and JoG?

[@mediocrates3416]

@missanne2908 Your comment really gets me thinking. I'm seeing Jesus Christ as the meditative experience; so when you mention the nativity.... it gets me thinking of the gospel of Mary, of Mary's meditative experience of Christ.... And that Mary is one of the disciples mentioned in the gospel of Thomas only makes this more interesting. And i have Jesus Barabbas as the leaders of the rebellion in 64 CE, Ralph Ellis' military Jesus; grandchildren of Judas of Gamala, as i understand it.

[@Cynicallyskeptic]

@@mediocrates3416your pondering leads me to think… I need both supplies of psychedelics(one of the permitted paranormal devices) and knowledge of Latin/Greek/Aramaic/Hebrew to contact Sage Fathers of that area and time…

[@HealingWithTheDiamonds]

Heretic means ability to choose. It is a compliment. Humanity needs no priests. Humanity wants no priests. Yeshua’s whole point was each person’s personal journey. So the only heresy possible is a ‘priest’ or expert saying oh you are wrong, That’s wonderful irony…. Beautiful.

[@NoCommentForAWhile]

Your Aesop reminds me how difficult to it's climb out of a NDE 🤔🤔🙄🙄

[@ekaterinagrigoreva5509]

thank you!

[@andersonchan4063]

Thank you for the sharing!

[@EpicurusWasRight]

To me it seems the GoT was considered a slippery slope and was rejected because if one accepts the teachings in it, that might open the door to considering other gnostic gospels plausible.

[@Fee___]

Maybe the church fathers didnt want people to think how actually escape from the earthly things and find peace and meaning maybe they just wanted to give people their opinion in order to keep bunch of people within same or similar thoughts and opinions

[@HBWP-r3t]

The Samaritan woman at the well and the adulterous women are very good stories I could see Jesus saying

[@Nicho2020]

Excellent exposition of GoT. Great teamwork, Bart and Megan!

[@russellmiles2861]

how was cruise?

[@Savethirdrock]

Finally. Thank you

[@Fee___]

Nooo this podcast was sooo short😭😭

[@wrongjohn]

had to reboot my memories of Jesus Seminar.. good stuff!

[@wheresmyhovercar]

Thanks for the video.

[@davidkeller6156]

Really interesting discussion on the Gospel of Thomas. It’s something I’ve been curious about since I first heard about it in Elaine Pagels’ book The Gnostic Gospels.

[@Theshamanomar]

The Nag Hamadi Text should not be referred to as the “Gnostic gospels” as the religious handlers labeled it diagnostic to scare away truly believers in Christ from reading it as anything labeled Gnostic is considered a heresy. I am not a Christian, but I would look at events like the uncovering of scrolls in 1888, 1945 as these scrolls as revelation, a higher power’s way of revealing source material more believable than those being canonized to guide people into the light of Christ directly.

[@pebystroll]

Heresy

[@Theshamanomar]

@ says who?

[@alangriffin8146]

There is no canon conspiracy. There are no words of god either. There is what was accepted and what was not. Gnosticism was not accepted, thus its texts were not as copied, thus it did not survive as a sect. You don’t need a conspiracy to keep out gospels that no one wants anyway.

[@Cynicallyskeptic]

Not only a revelation but potential sign that paranormal stuff exists

[@markandrzejak997]

So Judus Didymus Thomas was quite possibly the twin of Jesus the Messiah. In his distraught state having lost his twin brother in a horrific crucifixion, deceived the Roman authorities by (once again, because all twins do this) pretending to be a person they thought they crucified. That makes more sense to me than a person rising from the dead.

[@jamiebonsall430]

Wouldn't everyone else say "nice try, twin of the dead guy"?

[@dianadeejarvis7074]

The nativity narratives mention only one baby, not twins.

[@markandrzejak997]

@@dianadeejarvis7074 Good point. Another thought is since siblings many times look and sound similar, Jesus and Thomas were very much alike. How many times did people confuse me with my brother, 3 years older? Too many to count. Thomas could be a sibling born after Jesus and nothing was written about him (like many younger siblings, lol)

[@dianadeejarvis7074]

@@markandrzejak997 yep, maybe Jesus had younger brothers who were twins to each other. Or maybe Thomas just looked enough like Jesus that people thought they were twins. There are other possible explanations, too. I haven't seen reasons to favor any of the explanations.

[@Fee___]

But the question is: what did jesus do later ? Lets say if didymus thomas was the one who died where did jesus then go? Where did he live what did he do ?

[@willparker9772]

Bart your videos have been a huge factor in me learning to respect and value religious teachings. I used to view the bible as a worthless propaganda piece made to control people, but I have learned with your help that regardless of the religious truth of different books, there are very important lessons and teachings that all humankind should respect and cherish within many different traditions.

[@johnduffy1114]

For such a short amount of time interviewing , why are there so many commercials?

[@stevenhorton8604]

The Gospel of Thomas strikes me as messages divined through a Greek-speaking Jewish oracle devoted to the worship of Yahweh, so that the rich Greek speakers who are interested in Judaism might believe they are morally superior to the Jews, renounce the world, and live their lives as secretly Jewish, renouncing their local Greek culture, for a tradition that they believed was true because it was claimed to be an older tradition.

[@Ytbinger]

THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU

[@robinstevenson6690]

If there was a group of "Thomasine Christians," and I believe it's quite clear that there were, at least in the Church of the East and the Oriental Orthodox Church (in Syria, and in India - - e.g., Kerala), they may have been following what were the most intimate, subtle, and nuanced teachings of Jesus. Interesting, they were also what are now referred to as ancient "Jewish Christians."

[@Fee___]

Reallyyy??? Is there something like thomasine christians? Wow i need to search about that

[@Fee___]

I do find that the G of thomas is contradicting to the other 4 gospels.. i forgot which one but one of the 4 gospels said that jesus went to the disciples after his death and asked them to give him fish and ate as a prove that he went to the heaven with his earthly body not only spiritually however the G of Thomas never highlights the earthly body it says that escaping from the flesh, earthly things is the way to the kingdom. G of thomas makes more sense then other 4 fictional books

[@pagandeva2000]

If Either of you two ever read this, I’d love to know if Bart has any expertise in the Old Testament or is his focus only on New Testament? Secondly, Bart, I’d love to see you break down more of these other gospels, and the pseudopigraphia (I know I misspelled it). Those books need guidance.

[@narancauk]

Bart welcome back.

[@alangriffin8146]

For context, 1&2 Timothy, 2 Peter, and the Epistles to Titus and of John, were all written around 100-110, and John 90-110, so the Gospel of Thomas only missed the boat by about 10-20 years. Had it different theology, it would probably occupy a place like Infancy James; non-canonical yet very influential. But no one ever liked the gnostics, so nuts to Thomas.

[@robinstevenson6690]

When Bart reads a passage of Thomas and says, "whoa, that's kind of interesting, mystical and interesting," I wonder why he doesn't suggest that perhaps Thomas picked up, here a saying of Jesus that doesn't appear in Mk, Mt, or Luke? I think Thomas adds something.

[@robinstevenson6690]

Bart's "logic" - - that "Thomas has similarities with 2nd c. documents, but no 1st c. documents" is absurd IMO. Thomas has many similarities with Mark, Matthew, and Luke, all of which were 1st c. documents.

[@artawhirler]

Well if a virgin suddenly gave birth to TWO kids instead of only one (31:10), then that would make things a little awkward for people who later tried to claim that only ONE of these twins was actually a divine being, right?

[@Andreth73]

Not at all. There are precedences. Iphicles was twin brother of Hercules (son of Zeus), himself having a mortal father. Of course, that would require Mary not being a virgin at the twins' birth. Unless some elaborate explanation could be found.

[@martifingers]

So if the theology of the Gospel of Thomas is not derived from any 1st century Jewish thought, where did it come from?

[@alangriffin8146]

2nd century thought. He’s just saying that, theologically, it’s similar to 2nd century stuff and that nothing in the 1st century looks like this. Meaning it was written in the 2nd century and not the 1st.

[@Fee___]

But why does the aurhor say "this is the teachings of living jesus" ?

[@alangriffin8146]

@ Dr. Ehrman interprets that as referring to the resurrected Jesus. “The living Jesus” is equivalent to “the eternal Jesus,” in that case.

[@robertdargan1113]

​@@alangriffin8146I disagree with that. The author either meant that he wrote down Jesus's sayings while Jesus was still alive, or that these sayings are what he heard Jesus say. That why there's no silly, unbelieveable stories - just Jesus's sayings, one after another as remembered.

[@christopherjohnson5575]

One thing I don't understand about those who don't think Q was a real document, and who often explain the problem as simply Luke using Matthew: isn't something like Q still required? If Matthew used/copied Mark but also contains other material not from Mark, wouldn't that suggest a source (or more than one source) like Q, containing basically the same things as Q? It would still have beatitudes, Lord's Prayer, etc, right?

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

It simplifies the process. And arguably that source was not a written document but stories passed around in Matthew's community along with Matthew's own inventions or modifications. Just like Mark and Luke, for their own material. Q is different, since if it exists, it has to be a written source, since the wording is shared too closely between Matthew and Luke.

Megan: Start talking about the Gospels. Bart: Ok I will!

[@SiqueScarface]

51:05 Doesn't that lead into the "clock problem"? If you have one clock, you always know the time. If you have two, you are never sure. A similar problem arises here: If you have fine Greek, you can be pretty sure what it says. But if it is bad Greek, you never know that the author was attempting to say, because you have to correct the author first, and there might be several possible corrections.

[@robinstevenson6690]

Nice summary toward the end of the video. I would only add that it is entirely possible that the gospel of Thomas has recorded some of the things that Jesus said to the Apostle Thomas. If true, then the gospel of Thomas could have originated as a list of sayings that Apostle Thomas heard from Jesus himself.

[@Fee___]

I think this way too. I think he was writing right after jesus said something. However did he know how to write? And bart said the original g of thomas was found in greek..

[@robertdargan1113]

​@@Fee___ I suspect people were much better at remembering what was said in Jesus 's time. Even those that could write would learn by reciting anything important to them over & over till they knew it by heart. So if the Apostle Thomas couldn't write, he could at any point tell a scribe to write down Jesus sayings as he remembered them, whether Jesus was still alive or not.

[@Fee___]

@robertdargan1113 the main reason i think that thomas had to write down everything while jesus was alive is because he talks like a mistery in the g of thomas and usually the apostles dont even understand him so remembering of something that you didnt understand and that sounds like a mystery rather than clear message its difficulter to remember

[@robinstevenson6690]

@@Fee___ Good point. It's hard enough to remember something said years ago, word for word, especially if it is somewhat inscrutable.

[@nickcowell4744]

Bearing in mind that the Mandaeans are linked to John the Baptist, and the Shroud (the Mandylion) was first given to King Abgar of Edessa, doesn't it make sense to view the "Twin" as the Ghost/Image of Jesus, i.e. the Shroud itself, not a twin brother?

[@gabrielraphael57]

Retiring this year, $82K biweekly, this video reminds me of my life in 2023, you have really inspired me in so many ways!!!!!💜

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Wow. I'm a little surprised seeing Claudia Ann Brandon named here, and I didn't know she has been helpful to so many people too, this is amazing, I'm in my fifth trade with her, and it has been super

[@jennifergreen7076]

What is the best way to get connection to that woman y'all mentioning and speaking bout?

[@emilyamelia117]

What is the best way to get connection to that woman y'all mentioning and speaking bout?

[@jennifferjude3156]

Why are they the hidden sayings?

[@tsemayekekema2918]

Dr Ehrman, Dr James David Audlin once verbally called on other scholars (he mentioned you by name) to examine his new discovery of an ostensible Diary written by Pilate after getting fired by the Legate of Syria-if it is authentic, then The Gospel of Thomas was written within 4 years after the death of the Historical Jesus

[@lukeouthwaite9999]

Worth looking into.

[@OldMotherLogo]

I think he already did this 3 months ago. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6HSnXWkr52jiqssi=9cnPTOr6j0TVfya8

[@tsemayekekema2918]

@@OldMotherLogo based on the comment section-he has not even heard of the Pilate Diary I am referring to. He only spoke of the more widely known Acts of Pilate, which is unrelated to this arguably authentic Pilate's Diary that James David Audlin has publicised for the first time

[@4everseekingwisdom690]

When they say "eternal life" they don't mean what you think they do.. but it's absolutely true that if know what's hidden there toy can obtain it.. gnosis is directly experiencing who you truly are.. there's no faith, no belief you KNOW who you sea.. it's just another word for the ancient mystery tradition

[@ElkoJohn]

Well done.

[@shella7670]

As the mother of an Eagle Scout, every time they say BSA I think they are trying to get us to be Boy Scouts.

[@kevinmcnamee3948]

Same!

[@Adam-je2cp]

is it normal to have the kids build like a bird house and then after take it from them when done?

[@kirbinator5000]

I’d pay that for a class on biblical Greek…

[@thieph]

Doesn't Gospel of Thomas has some hints of panentheism? Then I don t think is the same as other gnostics, there is a saying that you can find Jesus by splitting a wood and you will find him there, lift up a stone and there is also. I doubt gnostics would have said that God or spirit in general can be found in material world since is evil.

[@thieph]

It has elements of monism, not sharp dualism as the usual gnostic stuff

[@cathykrueger4899]

Maybe what we see as the material world isn’t actually material. If Jesus said the Kingdom of God is with you, then being able access that would completely alter your perception of reality. I think this may be the idea of consciousness being beyond the trappings of the human body. That we’re all made of the same stuff, even rocks and trees. That what we see as human beings in this world is an illusion.

[@innavision1920]

@@cathykrueger4899 yeah that’s what quantum physics is scratching their heads at, and then they arrive at simulation theories etc. the physical world is maya, delusion and believing in it brings the soul into spiritual slumber. The true realization is all is spirit, but the fallen spirit of wisdom or sophia manifests as perceived material external elements and forces for the soul to experience as if it were real

[@matriputra2624]

@25:00 I think Dr Ehrman is misinterpreting the first line. It actually means, I think, "Those who can understand these sayings have been saved (will not taste death)". I think it refers to a state of grace wherein the individual automatically understands the meaning of the sayings. That is, it is not a test of whether we can unravel the sayings by our intelligence, but that we are given the ability to understand them by Grace. I think this was meant by being "saved" in some sects of early Christians, now called the Gnostics. But the. Pauline strain that finally dominated, and suppressed all the others, made being "saved" just the reward for a voluntary acceptance of the divinity and bodily resurrection of Christ.

[@howardmestas7522]

My problem with all the gospels is that the goal is to have eternal life. Who the hell would want to live for eternity? Why can't we just live this life to the fullest without worrying about eternity? Like going to Mars and not saving the earth.

[@russellmiles2861]

yes, always felt a bit odd .... Im sure it helps with dealing with grief and loss ... religion is helpful ... imagining loved ones in Happy Hunting grounds ... but the happy hunting ground for ever would be hideous

[@Fee___]

Its impossible to live in mars and the air is orange there

[@missanne2908]

I've had people say they believed in religion because either: (1) they can't stand the idea that this life is all there is; or (2) they want to see their loved ones again. Don't they realize that if death is the end, they aren't going to be out somewhere in the ether bummed because there is no afterlife? And what if their loved ones don't particularly want to see them? The Old Testament has a shadowy concept of the afterlife; basically an unconscious existence that will happen to both the good and the bad alike. That's why God has to threaten people that he will go after their kids if they aren't obedient.

[@Fee___]

@@missanne2908 after reading the gospel of thomas you know what for me made "sense"? What i start to believe is maybe our spirit is a part of god and if we separate it from our flesh in this earth. If we recognize it and pay more attention to our spirits needs then after death we return to god. I believe that the spirit is a part of god and deep down wants to reunite to god. I dont fhink we are homo sapiens in heaven or hell and i dont believe there is a hell and i dont believe there is evil and devil. I believe in earth its natural to kill and eat to fight for power cause every "evil" looking thing has to do with " all species wanting to survive" if you dont kill and eat the weak, you gonna die if you dont fight for power, you are not able to rule and other species will kill you.. and we are the only one species that is trying to find a meaning or find things unfair bla bla maybe thats because our spirit doesnt belong here?

[@howardmestas7522]

And that is a sad thought...who wants to worship that God.​@@missanne2908

[@ChristopherBond-i5f]

Oooh ….. the Spawn tee is awesome!!

[@Andreth73]

There is one saying in Mathew and Thomas which always puzzled and irritated me until I realized it was probably mistranslated. It's ""Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head" (Mathew 8:20, Thomas 86). Why Jesus would whine about his living conditions, while giving himself this exaled title "the Son of Man"? Jesus, get a grip on yourself, this is pathetic! Once you get rid of the capital letters and translate "son of man=a human" it actually starts to make sense... I don't know if the Coptic text encourages this translation, but I have found it in interpretations of G o T (where it fits nicely in the prevailing theme), not so much in G o M.

[@danielwarren3138]

Isn't this mistranslation also present in mark 2 "Sabbath for man not man for the Sabbath"? which ends with that strange "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath" - which makes a lot more sense to me at least if you replace "son of man" with "man" - which I think is because they are the same in Aramaic? I'm no scholar

[@Andreth73]

@@danielwarren3138 I believe (not being a bible scholar myself) you are right. At least some (many?) reputed scholars favour this translation. Especially since it is consistent with contemporary disputes among the Pharisees (Jesus seems to be inclined towards the school of Hillel).

[@Steve-u9k4p]

If the G of Thomas opens w/ "these are the sayings of the 'living Jesus'", would that not mean (at least implicitly) that the resurrection of Jesus is presumed despite the gospel being merely a "sayings" gospel?

[@markadams7046]

Not all early Christians as I understand it, believed in the resurrection. I don't know if this writer of the Gospel of Thomas was one of those or not. I'm not a scholar.

[@Steve-u9k4p]

@markadams7046 yes, ty for your comment

[@kristimiller3234]

Not necessarily, it could be the style of writing back then.

[@Steve-u9k4p]

@kristimiller3234 yes, ty for your comment

[@jttj742]

Wouldn’t it just mean “stuff he said when he was alive”?

[@jscire__872]

Excellent once again

[@HBWP-r3t]

Doesn't the Gospel of John sound like a rebuttal of the Gospel of Thomas

[@ChrisMusante]

I translated it. Front to back. Yes... 114 also. Which links to #119 of the Essene community rule God OF gods... as in ALL GODS. Who showed up last? Gotcha. Rabbit, W. A., Esq., Rabbi

[@Merrick]

So we have exactly as much evidence for J of A as for J of N

[@alangriffin8146]

No, that would mean that Joseph of Arimathea was named by non-Christian sources as a notable in his field, as Josephus mentions Jesus of Nazareth. We have no body or accepted burial site, but where is Alexander the Great’s body? Apollonius of Tiana is always held up as another miracle worker, contemporaneous with Jesus, but is the evidence for his existence more convincing than that for Jesus? We have more evidence for the existence of Jesus than for many other ancients whose existence people have no trouble accepting. Son of god, resurrected? Absolutely not. But he definitely lived, ministered, and was crucified by the Romans. To say otherwise belies either an ignorance of the sources, or a change in criteria especially for Jesus. So, are you ignorant of the writings of Josephus, or are you demanding more proof for Jesus’ existence than that required of other ancient figures?

[@HealingWithTheDiamonds]

Just a thought. Instead of studying Yeshua and ‘heavily debated’ things, why don’t we live, study EVERYTHING, and make our own individual connection with source? We will know Yeshua much more intimately by being a good parent, partner, stranger, co worker, etc than a lifetime of Bible study.

[@nerdysister]

this is a great episode. elaine pagels' book on the gospel of thomas is also pretty good and goes into the sayings in a lot of detail. but her book also goes in weird directions at points lol

[@davidknapp4491]

Marked increase in advertising is not welcome.

[@markadams7046]

Is there a significance to the 3rd day Jesus being raised. Why not a week, a month, a year, or several years? Is there any significance to that 3rd day. Couldn't Jesus being the alleged omnipotent God just do his business in an instant?

[@Andreth73]

The story of Jonah spending three days inside the whale, I guess, which was interpreted as foreshadowing (or even prophecy?) of Jesus death and ressurection.

[@Fee___]

It could be. It makes actually sense. Matthew in example is desperately trying to find any kind of similarities or connection with jesus and david and the jews etc he is highlighting his ethnicity maybe it was his idea

[@truthspeaks2333]

Too many ads now

[@robinstevenson6690]

I absolutely LOVE the way Bart unpacks the verse about "the corpse." Marvelous!

[@jennifferjude3156]

That’s a beautiful passage really

[@PP-tj9xm]

Gave up - too many adverts

[@Justificus]

The conclusion that the Gospel of Thomas has mystical sayings (not original) of Jesus for the time period and area of His ministry is not taking into account his education and possible travels. Was Jesus literate in multiple languages? Did he travel to foreign locations? Was he exposed to the multiple religious doctrines of Rome (very syncretic) or India? This is a far more likely scenario than only having a Jewish religious thought context for his teaching. Unless Jesus was an ultraconservative Jew, (it seems he was not) than this opens the door to many possibilities of the sayings being original and source material.

[@Andreth73]

What do you mean by "ultraconservative Jew" in the context of 1st century Judaism? Jewish religious thought was very diverse at the time, and there were Jewish theologians very familiar with both Greek philosophy and for example Persian religions. Take Philo of Alexandria, for example. Jesus might have been illiterate (or barely literate), speak only Arameic and possibly Hebrew, and still absorb quite a lot of different ideas for example through Essenes.

[@jennifferjude3156]

Wait? Q was supposed to have really be written in Greek? Really? Not Aramaic?

[@KarmasAB123]

44:21 Why does Megan pronouce Sanhedrin like that?

[@Fee___]

:D

[@YungDeath66]

Some Bible critics say the text has been rewritten more times than a group project with no one taking notes-so much editing, it’s practically a divine version of ’Who’s on First?’' It's full of variations, omissions, and some added bits that even the Dead Sea Scrolls would have trouble deciphering!

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

Megan - Another winning pair of eyeglasses.

[@HBWP-r3t]

Wouldn't The Telepathy Tapes become considered a type of gnosis?

[@craigweller3635]

I have a sincere question for Bart, as I find his views interesting. Has he ever experienced anything beyond the material and literal interpretation of things that would make him pause and question? I had spiritual experiences long before I intellectually engaged with religion and eventually became a Christian. It is those things I can't deny that also contribute to my belief. Also, not every Christian sect believes in a literal interpretation of the bible anyway, the bible was historically a compass pointing toward the truth. It doesn't need to be perfect in that sense to be true.. it simply reveals truth.

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

👏🙂

[@smerr5073]

Is it just me or are there more and more commercial breaks in this podcast? Gets annoying.

[@eblackbrook]

Well, Herod did have a son...

[@karldegroot1800]

Blind self appointed 'teacher' the original subject of Is.29:11 .

[@colinlavery625]

Too many adverts these days, unfortunately.

[@davidrutledge6215]

Find these videos fascinating. Please note that the email that arrived in my inbox just now -- well, none of the links work. F.Y.I.

[@robinstevenson6690]

"parts of (Thomas) were discovered before anybody knew what it was..." (laughs). I ask: What is so funny about that statement? I gather that this is simply nervous laughter, and thus inapt. Perhaps his students laugh when he says that, but out of that context, the laughter makes little sense.

[@tommyschmierer4627]

Thomas ISN'T a gnostic text ... At least not in the way that "gnostic" is typically understood with respect to the study of the early "christianities" ... that's my opinion for whatever it's worth...lol... ✌🏽❤️

[@lukeouthwaite9999]

I agree. With John not having a single parable in it while Thomas does, I think Thomas has more credibility to be in the cannon. Jesus is presented as a different person in John.

[@disarm9170]

Thomas just looked a lot like Jesus, it’s that simple, they looked similar, but were not related. And he was rare in that he could read & write at that time. Gospel of Thomas is too much like Buddhism to be accepted by Christianity.

[@Fee___]

Really?? Could thomas read and write at that time?? How can i search more about him ?? Tbh buddhism is pretty much like disconnecting from earth and when i try to follow buddhist teachings i feel lonely and depressiv however the mindset of g of thomas does have a soul for me its not depressing

[@Martha-eb7xb]

@@Fee___ If you wish, please read Walpola Rahula's "What the Buddha Taught." It's a classic. Insight Meditation (Vipassana) is illuminating to many seekers, Buddhist or not. Very best wishes to you all.

[@robinstevenson6690]

"(Q) is a hypothetical source, so we don't have it." That's actually only partially true, because we do have what's called the "double tradition" (>90% the same as Q), which is simply the verses in Mt and Lk that overlap. All Bart has to do is state that Q can be thought of as the "double tradition" - - - WHICH WE DO HAVE.

[@davidkeller6156]

Really interesting discussion on the Gospel of Thomas. It’s something I’ve been curious about since I first heard about it in Elaine Pagels’ book The Gnostic Gospels.

[@Fee___]

Megan what happened to you?😯 you're bot wearing makeup and you almost have your natural haircolor.. but i like the glasses😘