High passing your main speakers

[@johndaddabbo9383]

Agree, however Highpassing your main speakers done properly (even if you have so called Full range speakers) can have many benefits - First, no one said anything about a Highpass at 80hz (THX Movie standard) and instead I highpass my truly full range speakers at 40hz, which has several positive effects on the overall sound quality achieved - 1. Both the Bass AND Midrange is improved, 2. The dynamic range of the main speakers are improved, 3. My amplifier (300 watts 8ohms / 500 watts 4ohms) becomes effortless and never runs out of steem, 4. The main speakers are now able to be placed for better Sound-staging (instead of having to combat the BASS frequencies via placement), 5. My multiple Subwoofers are able to be placed in the room to combat the Room below 40hz (which in most rooms is terrible), and lastly despite the 3 12" woofers per speaker (one being passive) my 4 15" Subwoofers play even lower (flat to 16hz / - 3db 12 hz vs 24 hz / -3db 18hz) and have on average 12 dB more output below 40hz but more importantly is effortless and lower in distortion (being that the 4 15" Subs are coasting along).

[@lexicon612]

If your main 2 speaker's are truly "full range" you are taking a hit in sound quality by not allowing your main speakers to do what they were designed for. How do I know this? My AR Classic 30's with GR Research designed crossovers go down to 30Hz. There is no substitute for 20 to 20 emanating from one location. Large full range presentation is the best sound quality period imho. Spent most of my adult life as a bookshelves and sub's guy. Then I heard what full range really means. Hooked is an understatement. Yes I do still augment them with a pair of sub's. 2 channel exclusively with stereo sub's. High level inputs only. Same cabling as the mains straight from the main amps terminals. Turn off that large venue size sub system and really listen to just your mains. Impact can be fun but should not be the top priority imho.

[@johndaddabbo9383]

@lexicon612 - I cordially disagree 🤗, unless one is talking about say something like the $25,000.00 Legacy Audio Aeris XD AND in a large enough (as in huge) well treated room (and so roughly another $25,000.00). However as long as YOU are Happy with the results achieved then that's all that matters (and I mean that... not to only you but everyone... do what makes YOU Happy and do not worry about what anyone else Thinks).

[@johndaddabbo9383]

​@@lexicon612- Also (if I may) it seems to me that you are not 'properly' integrating the Subs, which granted is very difficult to do properly (with some main speakers making it harder to do then others).

[@shipsahoy1793]

🤔all that conviction with an extended post, which, truth be told, no one really cares, yet you don't know how to spell steam?🤯 There is steam, and there is esteem😂

[@shipsahoy1793]

I agree with lexicon.. I have a big pair of sealed three ways with 15" woofers, and isolated drivers, and there's no way that any subs could improve the stereo experience here..

[@georgebliss964]

It depends on how low the main speakers go. Ideally the sub woofer should fill in where the mains naturally roll off so that a smooth crossover is achieved. If you want to crossover at a higher frequency set from the sub woofer, then to avoid overlap, a filter would do the trick.

[@razisn]

I do not high pass my good quality standmounts when I use my 2 REL subs because I feel the integration is better. HOWEVER it is a scientific and measurable TRUTH that high passing the main speakers improves their performance in terms of DISTORTION across the frequency range of the woofer, which is more evident the highest one goes in terms of sound pressure level and the more low frequency content the music has. So this is really a trade off and it depends on how loud one tends to listen and the quality / characteristics of the main speakers.

[@rickmilam413]

I use Vandersteen Kento's. (In fairness, I'm a Vandersteen dealer). His high pass networks in front of your power amp either to high pass the upper bass speakers in his models with built in subs, or to high pass his non-subwoofer equipped speakers so that you can add his subs, works very well. I was surprised when, many years ago, I added the high pass network (not a simple single cap) and it made the main speakers sound much better. Actually what it did, according to him, was allow the amplifier to work less hard, not having to drive the reactive load presented by most woofers under 100Hz. So, in my view, the concept is valid. As in life, execution is everything. I now use his dedicated monoblocks, allowing him to design an amp without the necessary circuitry to do low bass well.

[@Steve-PerfectVinylForever]

100% agree! Vandersteen’s high pass filters work great, are configurable and when properly implemented, are beneficial to any system with subs. I use them on my full range towers when I added subs. Rolling off lower registers from the mains enabled ideal positioning of my two subs in my room. This is for my dedicated two channel system, not HT.

[@TheTrueVoiceOfReason]

Well, dang. Isn't that the whole point of DIY, to know your system and to experiment on it to suit your own situation? The way he's doing it will not affect "just" the speakers, but also the amp, allowing it more power supply headroom by removing the need to push those deep bass notes. Try it. Its your system. If you like it, then congratulations. If you don't like it, then you've learned from this experiment. And the knowledge of what works on your system is ultimately what you want. (From one DIYer to another, 👍)

[@Mikexception]

. I would risk opinion that even best performing perfect speaker in average room will always prevail with low tones because these not big enough rooms have own natural low resonances of their space depending on size in range 40 - 200 Hz . - only big enough hall do not interact with acoustic low range In my rather small room 6 meters long I aligned speakers extremly good in sense of overall impression After some few months my ears told me that they are still fatigued with interesting but prevailing low range which was passing unpleasantly through walls .When I opened or closed two room entrance doors i noticed that . by limiting common space i heard added like 10% to low background which for me wasn't welcomed . I found that it is impact of room and decided to change amplifier characteristic. I didi it by changing value of parallel capacitors in SE end stage cathodes form 1000 uF to about 0,3 uF. So the stage still mantain all band and works like with cathode resistance and without capcitors, with lowered gain. Only sopranos use projected gain with smal capacity - it was necessary to cover about 1,2 dB lose of sopranos by my complicated system . . It is not easy to analize what is happening, how much and how it changed speaker damping and why even slight decrease of gain, easy to cover with volume/loudness gave just clearly noticeable result. I think analyzing and measurement would be time consuming and by mixing with measurements errors could lead to confusion. Now that evident acoustic background recorded in tracks is 70% hidden and I must say now my ears much easier notice other sounds (specialy astonishing in progrock tracks or experimental music) but all gained. Even I still can switch to previous I see I do not find that too fatty sounding worthy. . On my side I strongly support what Paul told about mentioned combination.

[@TheTrueVoiceOfReason]

​@@MikexceptionI refer to my second paragraph. You have learned what works with your system in your environment. And that is what you should always strive for.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

Right on. This DIYer agrees.

[@SuperMcgenius]

Vandersteen uses a 6 db filter on $ 50,000 speakers, I had owned a much older pair and found no negative artifacts, just more amp headroom. Try it, Paul had one bad experience and can’t forget it.

[@nathanevans6277]

I have added a capacitor, a high quality Miflex, in between my pre and power amps. It has had a notable positive effect in both the bass and midrange. I set the capacitor so it would have it's -3dB point at the same frequency as the natural -3dB point of my sealed box speakers. This means that the speakers play down flat as far as they normally would but then roll of more steeply. This reduces unnecessary cone excursion and reduces distortion. Ported speakers trade bass definition and articulation for extention. As subwoofer/s are going to be used for bass extention the extention offered by the port is not required. I would suggest plugging the ports. Set the value of the capacitor to about 1.3 times the rated -3dB frequency. This will tighten and clean up the bottom end even further. To calculate the required capacitor value use this formula ; C = 1/(2πfZ) C = capacitance in Farads f = target frequency Z = input impedance of power amp.

[@gtric1466]

I get what he is asking from my experience for a 2 way mid bass, Yes it does put more strain on the vocals and mid-range but they also make them sound a bit warmer which i like. For one you can move them further out into the room or closer to the side wall if that's the case or maybe you would prefer a slightly brighter speaker. but installing the high pass probably will effect overall sound quality. Or maybe it's time to move to a larger or 3 way stand mount?

[@Oystein87]

The IRS are three way speakers and the front tower is just mids and trebles. So of course they SHOULD have a high-pass x-over in them.. Makes all the sense in the world. With smaller speakers then yes, you can definently do high-pass x-over and get the subs adjusted right with huge benefits. On larger speakers then no.. In general not. But it CAN be done right in some cases too.

[@Pksparty2112]

“Bite Me” 😆

[@bryanwilliams3665]

I highpassed my large standmount speakers with a 'Studio Quality Parametric' and then added a dedicated sub.. The mid & top from the mains cleaned up as did the bass. A big improvement. Maybe there was now, no stored bass energy from the main speakers inside those cabinets? I don't know?... Long and Short of it, its a substantial improvement with no phase problems or increased noise floor from the EQ.. For the record, the standmounts are not inexpensive and run as intended, punch well above thier price point.

[@iainsolly2575]

Probably the best bit of advice I have heard from you Paul!! If the full range speakers can’t play full range then get some new speakers that can!! Au Subs should only play below the full range speakers range

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

Mmm , what range of hearing is below the full range ? Secondly , if you restrict full range to your mains , then bass response can't be very good coz mains cannot be placed in positions that are optimal for bass response in 99% of all cases . That is why you need subs in the first place : as they are not localizeable due to the long wave lengths they produce , you can place them where bass response is optimal , mostly in a place not suitable for mains placement . Tertio , mains bass drivers mostly have less excursion and less surface area then sub drivers as they are required to reproduce higher frequencies which makes them less suited for sub bass . When mains are vented this can lead very quickly to mechanical damage when they need to reproduce frequencies under their tuning frequency when excursion (and distortion) quickly goes up exponentially , potentially hitting Xmech . And now , if your mains cannot reproduce a good bass response anyway because of placement restrictions , what is the point of torturing them ?

[@iainsolly2575]

I hear you brother. So I have experienced exactly what you are talking about. My main speakers are just bookshelves and they are good but they have a big hole in the frequency response at ~150Hz which to you point is due to the room response. Now by high passing the speakers at 180Hz I got amazing bass, using 2 SVS micro 3000s which were placed just behind the main speakers. Now most people would argue that 180Hz is too high to cross over. I feel that to get decent bass response in any reasonable size room you need probably 4 woofers to provide multiple signal paths to try to eliminate null points in the frequency response. Interestingly there are lots of speaker manufacturers who have side firing woofers that crossover at 300-400Hz (Vivid audio, kef LS60) and they are considered to be great speakers. So what’s the difference between that and my SVS subs cross at 180Hz behind my bookshelf speakers??

[@jtmcfarland3512]

@@iainsolly2575 Look up audio "beaming". 180 Hz does seem a bit high, but it all depends on your setup.

[@spacemissing]

I agree with Paul on this one. There is no good reason to use a high-pass filter with full-range speakers. That said, you can experiment with your system in whatever way you see fit.

[@CashGravel]

disagree on this one. a high pass filter imo is a good idea for smaller spkrs if you have a sub. why make the small woofer play those low notes while also playing well up into the mids? the physics alone would say the driver is being over taxed at higher levels especially. the design type is important but i dont see how his idea would harm the output. i run my maggies thru a sub and pass it at 60hz and it sounds great. one last point, all the power needed from the amp for the lowest notes to the spkrs will now be saved for more headroom.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Yes, that is exactly right and especially if you are using an active cross-over filtering, you most certainly can optimize this much better on phase and frequency response for the best use of every speaker and best use of every Watt providing lowest distortion.

[@spentron1]

4:30 I don't understand, the capacitor was part of the crossover and perhaps the best (most purist) way to implement it, unless you're saying the signal went through a crossover box too or that would have been better. Considering the IRS had no woofers in the upper section, the woofers were not just SUBwoofers. Crossovers in the main band have to be *designed* to work properly, vs. subs we more sort of wing it but using adjustments by ear (etc.) are always necessary anyway. I thought we covered this

[@janinapalmer8368]

The best way to do this by far is to use a passive stand mount and use a variable frequency Linkwitz-Riley active filter to supply the required split signals to two dedicated power amplifiers..

[@sudd3660]

that is what i did, instead of a preamp, i got a minidsp shd studio, into two dac's and power amps. now i have active highpass to passive mains speakers and passive subwoofers. i can pick the crossover type to linkwitz.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Paul still has to discover active cross over filtering and he will become a changed man.

[@NoEgg4u]

Interesting topic, and that our host does not recommend, based on his IRS speakers. Vandersteen's upper tier speakers, including the reference Model Seven speakers, all use a high pass filter. When properly designed and implemented, they get the job done correctly. Perhaps if his Aspen line were to one day include powered subs, and he used high pass filters to reap the benefits of less strain on the main amps, he would recommend high pass filters?

[@sudd3660]

no, because the aspen line are trying to be full range, if you high pass them you wasted all that passive radiator compromise they made and you got more experience speakers you wont use, with less sound quality.

[@johndaddabbo9383]

​@@sudd3660- I disagree. No one said anything about a Highpass at 80hz (THX Movie standard) and instead I highpass my truly full range speakers at 40hz, which has several positive effects on the overall sound quality achieved - 1. Both the Bass AND Midrange is improved, 2. The dynamic range of the main speakers are improved, 3. My amplifier (300 watts 8ohms / 500 watts 4ohms) becomes effortless and never runs out of esteem, 4. The main speakers are now able to be placed for better Sound-staging (instead of having to combat the BASS frequencies via placement), 5. My multiple Subwoofers are able to be placed in the room to combat the Room below 40hz (which in most rooms is terrible), and lastly despite the 3 12" woofers per speaker (one being passive) my 4 15" Subwoofers play even lower (flat to 16hz / - 3db 12 hz vs 24 hz / -3db 18hz) and have on average 12 dB more output below 40hz but more importantly is effortless and lower in distortion (being that the 4 15" Subs are coasting along).

[@NoEgg4u]

@@sudd3660 "no, because the aspen line are trying to be full range, if you high pass them you wasted all that passive radiator compromise they made and you got more experience speakers you wont use, with less sound quality." The Model Seven speakers are full range, and use high-pass filters. The System Nine option (or the Sub Nine option) has accompanying satellite subs, to go along with the Model Seven's full range speakers. Our host poo-poo'd high-pass filters, and yet reference speakers considered to be the best of the best use high-pass filters. This is not the only time that our host has dissuaded viewers about using options, based on what our host does not sell or does not offer. Bob in Maine was given biased advice. That would be fine, if our host did not portray himself as the 100% trustworthy, altruistic, lovable uncle that looks after us all. What Bob in Maine wants to do can work, and quite effectively, just like phono amps reverse the RIAA curve (somewhat different application, but along the same lines).

[@jtmcfarland3512]

@@NoEgg4u Paul did say a good "full-range" speaker should already have it built into the crossover. For one, that makes them not technically full range. For 2, of course they do, because it sounds better than no filter. 3rd, who cares if the filter is at the amp or in the cabinet other than someone trying to sell $40,000 speakers. LoL

[@NoEgg4u]

@@jtmcfarland3512 Envy rage.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Of course you would want small side speakers in a system with subwoofer to be high-pass filtered IF you have active cross-over and can do it with care of phase and linearity. Forget about it using passive filtering.

[@jtmcfarland3512]

I think Paul misspoke when he said lowpass. He knows very well a capacitor in series with the wire is a highpass.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@jtmcfarland3512 Meant to say passive filtering.

[@jtmcfarland3512]

This is twice in a week Paul has had a "run 'em full range" episode. Just like the plethora of people last time, I still gotta disagree with that as a general statement. Most of the time, the subwoofer needs room to breathe. The system sounds so much better with a high pass on the woofers anywhere from 50 Hz to 100 Hz. The problem is: full range speakers usually aren't full range.

[@bekay3subs]

You're right the speakers in question are Polk L100's -6dB @ 54Hz.

[@dannyfannyfoodle]

Question: I recently bought my first sub (REL 1510) and am running my speakers full range. But they go, legitimately, down to 32-35 hz, so I’m struggling to find the right setting on my sub. No matter what I set it to (30-80hz), when I find the blend seems “right”, it’s basically at zero volume because the speakers already go so low. So now I’m wondering; what is the point of adding 1 or 2 $2,000 subwoofers when the speakers are already covering the “full range”?

[@sudd3660]

at least its a cheap solution people can try for themselves judge how it went. but for sure buy speakers for the purpose, seeing people high pass ported, passive radiator or transmission line speakers just hurts... that is why i say we need more sealed/acoustic suspension speakers if a subwoofers i going to be used.

[@Error2username]

😂

[@larryhoffman7471]

Interesting. But if you want to limit the amount of low frequencies going to the stand mount speakers, why not just do it like its been done for years; use the crossover that's built in to the sub? … amp to sub; through sub’s x-over; sub to stand mount speakers. Most subs have that built-in.

[@francoisroberge5882]

But isn't that the way Vandersteen hook up their subs using a high pass filter between the preamp and the power amp?

[@clickbeetle2720]

🖤just use a sharpie on the floor or the side of a carton.. it would help the beginners which was the original aim of this channel.. many people that comment seem to think they're a professor of physics or some sort and I'm sure their contribution adds to the confusion for young players.. many of those people have been banned from Audio Science Review and its online peers..

[@VinceTedesco519woodworking]

I am fairly new to Hi-Fi. But can this not be done in the mains crossover where it will play down to let’s say 80 or 100 Hz or whatever the calculations or room calls for? And then let the subs do the rest?

[@ruthnumsolutions]

Xc=1/2pifc for capacitive reactance if i remember correctly. My early crossover days 😂

[@glenncurry3041]

My maple syrup comes from Wisconsin. B&E's. It is aged in bourbon barrels! Yes!

[@johnnytoobad7785]

If you really have the need to build HPF's or LPF's do it using an active 2nd order line level op-amp circuit.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Paul still has to discover active cross over filtering and he will become a changed man.

[@tysimon]

Phase shift is the worst audiophile's enemy, IMO. With a simple RC filter you introduce a lot of that.

[@gerritgovaerts8443]

No , it is not , and certainly not in the sub 100 Hz freq region . Human hearing is very insensitive to phase shifts . If it was , we would all be listening to loudspeakers without crossovers and 1 single full range driver .

[@paulb4661]

"Under normal room conditions, the influence of the electroacoustic system is negligible relative to the influence of the room with its resonances and strong influences on the time function of the envelope. This makes it understandable that under normal living room conditions, phase distortions are rarely audible and that consequently the phase characteristics of the amplifier and loudspeakers may play a secondary role." Prof. Hugo Fastl & Prof. Eberhard Zwicker "Psychoacoustics" page 191.

[@jtmcfarland3512]

I think this perception comes from random unscientific attempts by average Joes causing nulls due to phase shift. Every speaker you've ever heard has a "phase shift". They're just engineered to be smoothed out. It's the guy who has no measurement equipment and sticks on some Amazon "bass blocker" that causes problems with phase.

[@bekay3subs]

Yes I questioned the effect on the sound because of this phase shift. If I have my on-research correct there will be 90 degree phase shift on all the signal going to the mains. The balance of the speaker response will not be upset and the shift of 90 degrees on a low frequency wavelength of say 40 hz being 28 ft divided by 4 is 7 ft. ! Not a factor since there will be no localization at those bass frequencies. Does that make sense?

[@ScottGunMag69]

I was going to disagree until you clarified that your main speakers can play low frequencies. I would recommend high pass if your main speakers aren’t capable of reproducing sounds below about 50 hz. What would be the frequency you would recommend, besides buying a better set of mains?

[@bekay3subs]

The speakers in the question are Polk L100's down 6dB @ 54Hz. I have 2, 12" subs.

[@Rowuk2024]

Whether or not you should high pass the "satellites" depends on the satellites. There are some that benefit in terms of reduced distortion (smaller stand mounts) but if the satellites are truly full range, the low bass benefits greatly from multiple points feeding the room.

[@thomaslarsen9867]

How about a cap and resistor after the amp?

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

Paul's best videos are the ones where he says "Bite Me." OK, it's a joke. Bite me. But has anyone ever taken what I will call the slag signal from an HPF, buffer it and use it to provide for an LF driver? By that I mean to intercept the component(s) of the HPF that go to ground with a very low value resistor to extract exactly the inverse of what the HPF does rather than making a separate LPF. It would seem a natural but I haven't tried it.

[@ssleddens]

All of Paul's boxes say made in China

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

Do you think if he doubled the price but proudly labeled the box made in the USA his business would increase? We may find out if you know who slaps a 30% tax on them.

[@ssleddens]

@@user-od9iz9cv1w When I pay a premium price, I don't want Chinese junk.

[@bencausey]

Go tell Darko.

[@thegrimyeaper]

2:43 lol

[@denisplante2193]

Completely disagree.Very low frequencies on a speaker must be removed and handle by a very specific speaker designed completely for this purpose not counting these low frequencies must be place at a very different location than the main speaker.

[@jasonkilo8167]

While I agree in principle, the same argument could be made on adding a sub. If you need a sub. You need different speakers. So no, adding things is just that, adding things.

[@bencausey]

A sub adds lower frequencies - a high pass filter takes away frequencies.

[@jasonkilo8167]

@@bencausey I know, I'm just saying both are an added item. So both would indicate a problem with the main speakers.

[@tothemax324]

Pick speakers for the job they are suppose to do. No need to Frankenstein everything.

[@tothemax324]

I don't hate the idea. Its just better when its not needed.

[@lexicon612]

Less is more when referring to any audio signal, in general. I have also run into the same problem with large bookshelves by EPOS. I was unable to experiment as I use Audioquest Water XLR's. As a DIY guy you are probably aware that GR Research has designed and sells just such a solution. Danny's design uses RCA to achieve this roll off. This type of thing is GR's wheelhouse. I would not even consider using anyone else to design this type of filter.

[@1stswim]

2.5 way loudspeakers are no good then?

[@ryanschipp8513]

So PS audio 3,000 bookshelf speaker is the best in the world? That's absolutely comical. Paul if you had heard hundreds of bookshelf speakers which I highly doubt you would have to a b blind test them. Humans don't have Sonic memory from years and years ago. You are just a bona fide sales guy.

[@edd2771]

I’m one of the guys who has recommended a white board for topics like this. I think it’s a constructive suggestion. Bite you??? How mature and open minded. True character will always eventually show through.

[@bencausey]

You are easily triggered. Wow.

[@edd2771]

@ nah. Just by this.

[@Alamo-cz5xc]

This is sage advice

[@ywsx6489]

Don't need a whiteboard to talk about a cap and resistor. How complicated is that 😂

[@pierresjostrom6110]

...then buy a new pair of speakers. Sounds easy when you have unlimited of money.

[@IvanToman]

What Paul basically says, is that the vast majority of speakers, that includes all affordable ones, are garbage and should be thrown away, and that everyone should have towers that play 20-20k flat and loud. Everyone else who is not in a position to purchase (or fit into room) these, is screwed, and there is no place for using subwoofers or enjoying music without bottom octave. I fully disagree.

[@Error2username]

Fr5 towers😂?

[@tedhersh9095]

Not sure if your listening comprehension is the issue, but your recap of what Paul says is way off.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Paul still has to discover active cross over filtering and he will become a changed man on this topic. With active cross-over filtering you can get awesome clean sub bass out of your system even small side speakers are used limited in their excursion as smaller speakers might be designed with bass in mind but won't do it without distortion when playing loud.

[@IvanToman]

True. What the asker said, he has main speakers and subwoofer and probably wants to offload main speakers or get rid of phase issues because they most probably don't sum properly with subwoofer by playing the same frequencies together. And he stated he is on budget. Then Paul says - no! You actually need new larger speakers that will be fullrange so that you don't need subwoofer anymore :) To be honest I would also advise against putting capacitor in front of amplifier, but I would suggest minidsp instead of new $$$$$peakers ...

[@ThinkingBetter]

@ I use miniDSP in one of my setups. Active cross-over is the way to go.