Historian Reveals Who The Man In The Iron Mask Likely Was

[@AndriyValdensius-wi8gw]

To clear things up : Athos : Oliver Reed Porthos : Frank Finlay Aramis : Richard Chamberlain D'Artagnan : Michael York Cardinal Richelieu : Charlton Heston Milady de Winter : Faye Dunaway Count de Rochefort : Christopher Lee Constance Bonacieux : Raquel Welch Anne of Austria : Geraldine Chaplin Louis XIII : Jean Pierre Cassel (dubbed Richard Briers) Duke of Buckingham : Simon Ward Planchet the servant : Roy Kinnear Made in 1973 by Richard Lester, when movies still had all star casts. Never bettered You're welcome.

[@AndriyValdensius-wi8gw]

I think the story was picked up from Voltaire's "Age of Louis XIV." A mysterious man in an iron mask is mentioned. As far as I remember, Voltaire didn't speculate as to the man's identity. It's a long time since I read the book. Speculation as to his identity may not have been conducive to Voltaire's health. France was still an absolutist monarchy during his lifetime.

[@tricorvus2673]

❤

[@douglassun8456]

Indeed - never bettered.

[@TheGreatWhiteScout]

Screenplay by George Macdonald Fraser - of Flashman fame. Simply the best (two) movie(s) on the topic. Even Charlton Heston said it was his favorite historical role.

[@Mum2mollyandpoppy]

I believe this was Roy Kinnears last film, as he died either during filming or very shortly afterward.

[@Spruce-Moose]

Awesome that you're back to KZbin

[@JJ_hehehehehe]

So glad the algorithm brought your channel to me. Been binging the last couple days. Keep up the good work fellas!

[@TeresaLeandro]

I bless the algorithm too. I didn’t know the channel.

[@littlebrookreader949]

Imagine an unwashed face, neck, and hair. Nose, mouth and teeth, ears, eyes. Unwashed for years. Unwashed skin. The sweat in heat. No sunlight. For years. Decades. Sheer misery. What unspeakable torture. Wicked.

[@freedomvigilant1234]

My own theory is that the 'Iron' mask is most likely an exaggeration. This person probably wore a fabric mask. It is entirely plausible that the chap was allowed to remove it at times of total seclusion.

[@Marta_z_Dabrowy]

​@@freedomvigilant1234 I think you're right. Nobody could live for years with metal mask on their head. I assume that person would die quite fast from any skin infection.

[@tru2harris998]

​I ALSO HOPE ITS AN EXAGGERATION. HOPE. BUT NOT SURE AS THESE WERE SADISTICALLY CRUEL TIMES THE WAY THEY TREATED PRISONERS AND PEOPLE IN GENERAL.

[@kasvinimuniandy4178]

😢😢😢😢

[@robpolaris7272]

Except it sounds like in reality it was made of velvet. Obviously it was able to be taken off and was more likely to protect the prisoner.

[@SueFerreira75]

A wall plague in Maastricht, The Netherlands, marks the site where D'Artagnon was killed. Also, worth reading The Black Count, a biography of Thomas-Alexandre Dumas', a General in Napoleons' army, whose son, author Alexander Dumas, based The Count of Monte Cristo on his father.

[@victoriabarclay3556]

It’s a great book. Agree

[@nozrep]

yes the black count and Alexandre Dumas was sometimes referred to as “quadroon” in his lifetime time because his father was like, half, or something, but most mulattoes still have darker skin usually…but and so Alexandre was like a quarter African descent. A quarter… quad… quadroon. fascinating stuff!

[@kasvinimuniandy4178]

Cooool

[@JLFAN2009]

@@nozrep And his son and namesake, Alexandre Dumas fils, would have been an octoroon ...

[@s.clignancourt1897]

Thank you Sue. Because of your hint, I found a very nice decription of a guided tour online: "D'Artagnan walk" with pictures - for all d''Artagnan fans. 😊

[@nomorephones]

"D'artagnan is basically an hired Goon", "That's a poor conduct even for a Frenchman"... cracked me up.

[@louisdaillencourt2454]

In keeping with the general anti-french sentiment of the pod. Love the pod. Love the jokes. Still. Their dislike is often quite evident. As a French Brit (we exist) - saddens me.

[@nomorephones]

@@louisdaillencourt2454 They are just messing. They seem to adore French culture.

[@d.c.8828]

​@@louisdaillencourt2454 I believe it is a British national obligation and duty to the English crown. 👑

[@eshaibraheem4218]

​@louisdaillencourt2454 Perhaps you have missed out on the irony in your British blood. You should be laughing, Louis

[@eshaibraheem4218]

​@@d.c.8828 At the very least.

[@Perizada]

Being forced to serve as a valet could have been another form of punishment. Somebody of high status being forced to work as a servant just adds to the prisoners humiliation

[@fiachramaccana280]

The only humiliation would have been to the concept of royal blood. Royalty would never do that. Remember the line "a king does not kill a king". It undermines the entire mystique of Royalty. Royals firmly believed and propagated the idea that royal blood was a God given status and could not be interfered with by mere mortals. This was true until the 18th century. There were plenty of Royals in prison down the centuries. They were always treated as royals. In the exceptional circumstances where they were murdered (princes in the tower) this had to be thoroughly covered up. To this day we don't know for sure what happened (we know but we cant prove in other words). Only "barbarians" such as the Russians killed royalty semi openly. This was viewed as proof of the non civilised behaviour. The French as the self appointed keepers of civilized behaviour would not. You might also argue that Cromwell did it.....but he was no royal. And was viewed with horror at the time by Europeans.

[@manuellubian5709]

... and yet people around this Infamous prisoner are there standing at attention or giving deference to this individual could also serve to explain that the people serving the prisoner might have believed and or understood the prisoner to be 'high born'.

[@fiachramaccana280]

@@manuellubian5709 source? and make it good.......

[@Venmaylove]

​@@fiachramaccana280precisely. Its clear as day that the man was not in an iron mask and it was a black silk material and furthermore it wasnt even a man but a Norwegian forest cat that had to have its face covered due to its majestic fluffy mane that would drive any other cat owner jealous with envy that their scruffy mongrel cats were ugly and grotesque in comparison to the Cat in the Fluffy Mask

[@fiachramaccana280]

@@Venmaylove yawn.

[@klhaldane]

The only problem I have with your theory is why would anybody go to that much trouble over a servant?

[@cmaden78]

Because of who his DAD PROBABLY WAS!!! Patrilineal inheritance etc...

[@reniasva]

@@cmaden78 But back then no one could prove anything. And they could have killed someone without much trouble. I don't buy that theory presented here.

[@jei-el2139]

I just commented about this before I saw your comment. I agree and it seems to me that this masked man, whoever he was, must have had a hold on the king, like love, respect, fear of killing another noble, that kind of thing because even today if someone is a big enough nuisance to a person in high places, they get taken out altogether.

[@reniasva]

@@jei-el2139 Exactly.

[@lyndavonkanel8603]

@@jei-el2139 I think just about anybody would prefer a quick death to living in a prison, with an iron mask on for years on end.

[@ilmaba1756]

Andre Rieu (Strauss Orchestra) owns the castle where D'Artagnan apparently spent his last night. He always speaks of it when asked about his home.

[@Betty-qz5zd]

When I was about six years old, in the early 1950's, I saw the 1939 movie on TV at my grandma's house. At the end, he dies when the coach he's riding in goes out of control and falls over a cliff. Seeing him in the mask all of the time, and then seeing him die in in the accident really freaked me out. Those images have stayed with me my entire life, so I feel a kind of weird connection to it.

[@susannaseay4799]

Actually it was his brother who died in the carriage accident. The movie starring Louis Hayward as the king and his twin brother. The king was selfish and cruel. The brother was raised by the musketeers and good. The twin is put in prison with his head encased in a iron masks but the musketeers break him out and put the king in the mask. It gets a little busy but the kings servant breaks the king out and he is racing to claim the throne and his plans are thwarted by the twin and musketeers. Good movie!!

[@Venmaylove]

​@@susannaseay4799which one was the one where the musketeers were cats.

[@JeSTeR-X1o]

​@@Venmaylove Not sure about cats but there was an animated series "dogtanion and the three muskahounds where they were dogs and richelou was a fox or jackel

[@JeSTeR-X1o]

​@@Venmaylove Not sure about cats but there was an animated series "dogtanion and the three muskahounds where they were dogs and richelou was a fox or jackel

[@claredelamer7940]

The only reason to forcibly mask someone is so he is not recognised. That he is not recognised is important in many circumstances. He might well be a twin, a doppelganger, an unknown first-born son. It is a tantalising mystery.

[@susanmercurio1060]

Dumas claimed that he was Louis XIV's twin younger brother.

[@carolbaughan8768]

😢

[@Loralanthalas]

Never piss off somone so much they're no longer willing to kill you. Especially a king.

[@TheAnadromist]

Many years ago as a young child my mother took me to see the Hammer Horror version of the Phantom of the Opera. The mask in that one was scarier than the actual disfigurement makeup. Later I ran across a Classic Comics version of The Man in the Iron Mask. I was so afraid to read through it because I thought is was a Phantom of the Opera type of story. Then I was confused when I leafed through the pages. Because I couldn't find the horror. But I knew it had to be there. So I left it on the rack. Many horror films later I realized that I was conflating the two sets of imagery. And yet there is indeed something quite chilling when you think of a man forced to wear an iron mask all of his life. It's a subtler, sadder, colder, chill. Such is history...

[@unbabunga229]

And he wasn’t allowed to talk to anyone, must have gone totally mental

[@lyndavonkanel8603]

I was taken to scary movies when I was young, too. What were they thinking?!

[@judithstrachan9399]

@@lyndavonkanel8603 Doctor Who?

[@dfuher968]

Oliver Reed was Athos. Porthos was played by Frank Finlay in that movie. With Richard Chamberlain as Aramis, Michael York as D'Artagnan, Faye Dunaway as Milady, Charlton Heston as the Cardinal, and ofc the great Christopher Lee as Rochefort. Great movie. Its as old, as I am, but it really was excellent, so many great actors.

[@lyndsayeccleston1998]

He was a valet….who looked very similar to Louis XIV, which would expose Louis XIII as not his real father, and threaten his legitimacy to the throne. The special treatment was due to the fact it was his real half brother. Thats my theory anyway 😮

[@cmaden78]

You and the nun who taught my hs honors history class too 😂❤

[@iracordem]

@Latin-J youre joking right? the king’s secret unknown twin brother? or someone powerful and popular that nobody ever noticed gone?

[@ohmightywez]

Like the princes in the tower and Elizabeth I being actually a man. My nuns.weren't overly fond of the Tudors either.

[@cdeford2]

Lookalikes are 2-a-penny.

[@cdeford2]

@Latin-J The trouble with the twin brother theory is that the whole court would have known about it. This man, whoever he was, was arrested when the king was already in his 30s and had been on the throne for more than 20 years. Questions about his legitimacy would have been completely redundant by that time.

[@ahleena]

You seem quite certain Voltaire made a fiction about the governor personally bringing the man in the iron mask his dinner, but allow me to tell you why it might not be: you said Voltaire heard stories of a masked prisoner from other prisoners and made notes. I think it's entirely plausible that while this story was still oral only, OTHER prisoners embellished it and added to his fame, because it assuaged their misery and gave them something to think about and project into. I also think it's plausible that the governor really did serve the prisoner, because if the governor also didn't know the social rank of the prisoner (which at the time was zero but who knew what the future held?) and thought it best not to take a chance. Also, the governor might have thought being in the presence of the prisoner might satisfy the curiosity the mask engendered in everyone.

[@stevelawrence5123]

If the valet was the king's father and as the king grew up he had the exact same face as his father, it might prove to be an embarrassment to the king's mother as well as a threat to the legitimacy of the state.

[@danaglabeman6919]

One of the problems with the idea that Louis looked so much like his "real" father that a mask was needed is that the person whose face Louis actually inherited was his official paternal grandmother, Maria de Medici. Seriously, if we're looking for Louis' twin, it's his grandma in a mustache and curly black wig. The only person besides Louis XIII who could have passed on that face to Louis XIV was Marie's younger son, Gaston. That's absolutely possible: maybe Louis XIII was infertile. If Gaston impregnated Anne of Austria, a grandson of Henri IV would still be heir, and Gaston and his brother looked so much alike, there'd be no risk of the baby not looking like his official father. But Gaston lived a long, very public life, so he couldn't have been Mask. I'm not convinced Louis XIV was the XIII's son, and wouldn't be surprised if someday proof comes out he was really Gaston's, but portraits have me convinced he was Maria de Medici's grandson.

[@theirishantiquarian2363]

Loving the videos. So much more accessible

[@lindsaydrewe8219]

There were a hell of a lot of people in history whose father was not who they thought. No way of knowing for sure before the advent dna

[@pendorran]

"Mommy's baby. Daddy's maybe."

[@stirlingmoss9637]

Queen Victoria believed herself to be Jewish and it has been proposed that her father was Nathan Rothschild.

[@romeomatei5692]

Oliver Reed was Athos, wtf, I live at the border of Ukraine, I was born AFTER the movie was made and I STILL can answer this easy question.

[@thehowlingmisogynist9871]

Along with Richard Chamberlain, Frank Findlay, Michael Yorke, Christopher Lee, Roy Kinnear and Charlton Heston - what a cast!!

[@genighmartin4999]

Yes that was the movie I saw as a child.

[@hiromilong]

Yes, I had a similar reaction and was also born after the movies were made in a non-English speaking country

[@Pocketfarmer1]

@@thehowlingmisogynist9871 I particularly like that Heston used actual quotes from Richelieu in the movie.

[@carolbaughan8768]

Oliver Reed, major heartthrob in the 70's.

[@MsMagdalena71]

Dominic should read audiobooks!

[@eshaibraheem4218]

With Tom laughing in the background.

[@victoriamacgregor9280]

Absolutely yes

[@David-sk9vv]

Ummm... don't you mean... LISTEN to audiobooks?

[@normabrien8331]

I have read all the writings of Alexander Dumas which I did during my high school years and I learned so much history from his writings.

[@pauld4992]

The theory i read somewhere is that the man in the iron mask was the stud recruited to impregnate the queen ... then, when louis xiv started growing up it became very obvious that he was the spitting image of said stud ... so then that is why he was forced to hide his visage forever ...

[@lindsaydrewe8219]

That was the plot of Versailles series 3 anyway

[@pauld4992]

Maybe, I don't often watch fiction videos, I generally only read non-fiction books lol

[@cmaden78]

Oooh that's a new one for me 😮 maybe

[@cmaden78]

​@@pauld4992I do both. I mean Stephen King s books are amazing, the movies aren't as good, but a different good

[@vb8801]

​@@pauld4992you're commenting on a video...

[@rosemcguinn5301]

One question keeps coming up for me: If he wasn't of royal blood, why didn't they simply have him killed? Make it appear to have been an accident or have him poisoned? That is the missing piece of the puzzle here for me.

[@richardcameron3762]

Perhaps him being a double agent they couldn’t figure out if he was working for the English or the Dutch. So perhaps he was kept alive incase a future negotiation with the English/Dutch he could be used as a barter chip. What was in his head was worth something. Maybe 🤷‍♂️

[@danMdan]

He was not killed because Louvois had previously used Eustache to attempt to kill by poison his then enemy Colbert. So Louvois on his own authority had him imprisoned for life, but could not bring himself to order his death. So he used a pre signed arrest warrant to have Eustace D.arrested and hauled well out of the way to Pignerol, and promised Eustache his life if he kept his mouth shut. Since Eustache indeed was a criminal poisoner he was content to trade his freedom for a prison life. Hence the security but no execution.

[@Perizada]

He knew something and/ or was somebody of great importance

[@blackcat2628zd]

I think he was of royal blood. Or maybe man of cloth?

[@cmaden78]

Right. Or half way least 😅​@@blackcat2628zd

[@nozrep]

heyeee i “quick googled” the etymologies of ‘Eustache’ and ‘Dauger’! And guess what guess what?!?! They come from Eustace and further back the Greek Eustachys meaning, ‘good grapes’ or ‘bountiful harvest’; while ‘dauger’ derives from an old German word adalgarius meaning ‘noble spear’!! So, to summarize, the prisoner in the iron mask has been confirmed as Eustache Dauger, which may be a pseudonym. A pseudonym with a not so hidden meaning of “Good grapes of the Noble Spear”. So yah based on that solely and only, I choose to believe the pseudonym theory and it was still the king’s twin!!!😂

[@bethdumont9020]

My late husband was French. He told me that the Comte de Paris knows the identity of the man in the velvet mask, who, of course was the model for the man in the iron mask. Apparently this secret is passed from father to son, down the male line.

[@fsutaria]

The twin brother theory makes no sense. People in those days were not as uneducated about the possibility of a twin birth as we think. There would have been witnesses to the birth of the second baby as well, and in that era of high child mortality, it is very unlikely that a "spare" would have been callously left unacknowledged, or forced into a life of anonymity and even possible penury. Finally, primogeniture was determined by the order of birth rather than conception! All in all, a twin would have been seen as a double gift from God, hardly to be discarded!

[@christopherhall1336]

I can't help but wonder (for the British listeners) whether Monsieur Fouquet would be called Mr Fuckit in the UK, like our wonderful Mrs Bouquet (British sitcom).

[@michellebyrom6551]

Bucket is not Bouquet and Fouquet is not f....

[@michellebyrom6551]

Probably closer to the Scottish foo kit.

[@christopherhall1336]

@@michellebyrom6551 You obviously aren't British and don't get the joke, but thanks for the lesson.

[@jaffa7243]

If the prisoner was a threat to Louis XIV, why didn't they just kill him?

[@stevenschwartzhoff1703]

Spilling royal blood sets a bad precident, then others can do the same to you. Just a speculation, but as you say a king can kill essentially anyone they want. Keeping them alive like that suggests a special need to keep them alve. "No, I did not kill my brother/father.... here he is still alive. Our blood is sacred."

[@carolbaughan8768]

Obscene torture.

[@jamiemcvay130]

He was the king’s father.

[@Loralanthalas]

Because when you TRUELY hate someone: you keep them alive. Death is release. An escape. Hate is this man's life. The hatred of whomever was in charge.

[@AniMerDol]

​@@LoralanthalasGood answer! Most logical reason, actually, the only one for keeping him alive.

[@sallyinoz]

such and interesting tale. I had no idea he was real. Thank you for a wonderful look through history

[@manuellubian5709]

For the English literature lover in me I absolutely enjoyed your beginning monologue. It was absolutely fabulous.

[@adamaus8770]

I don't even need to watch your video to know the answer, its our glorious lord Doom clearly. Glory to Latveria, glory to Doom

[@jei-el2139]

Just discovered this pod and I’m so glad I have. It’s undoubtedly fun to speculate on who the man in the mask was or wasn’t. The latter theories do seem plausible and more likely however, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that this man, valet, spy, twin brother, real father, whoever wasn’t just killed. History is full of people who have been “inconvenient” to a monarch/government and have been “off’ed” (looking at you Tudor dynasty) Perhaps, whoever this person was, must have had the “love/respect ” of the king, someone he cared enough about where it compelled him to keep the man alive yet bury his existence in a mask and jail cell.

[@grimtt]

Or that keeping him alive and out of sight kept a 3rd party, who was connected to the prisoner, in check. Just spitballing ….

[@michellebyrom6551]

​@grimtt more likely. Forcing someone to wear an iron mask as well as putting them in prison is so callous it sounds more like something to torture a hated enemy.

[@jei-el2139]

@@grimtt could have been, fair point.

[@jei-el2139]

@@michellebyrom6551 could be.

[@charliesinnott9840]

Seeing them is epic... known voices only for years...

[@manuellubian5709]

Voltaire...the Truman Capote of his day😅. Lol.

[@ajkleipass]

The prisoner was of royal birth - though whether they were French or another court is unclear. Their detention was not for a crime but to prevent their birthright from being claimed and to prevent them from having children. As for the nature of the mask, it very well could have been iron for most of his stay, with a change to velvet either towards the end of life, or as a final act of mercy upon his death - a corpse with a vail is less suspicious than a corpse with its head in an iron cage.

[@martiwilliams4592]

Captivating, also this time around--getting points missed before. Thank you!

[@eshaibraheem4218]

Now, I shall always think of Theo and Porthos as being one and the same (and therefore real). This was wonderful. Many thanks.

[@tricorvus2673]

I remember Richard Chamberlain in “The 3 Musketeers” and also in “The Man in the Iron Mask”.

[@Tugela60]

It is more likely that it is the king's uncle, Gaston, who was involved in numerous rebellions against the king. Eventually he was exiled to Blois in 1752 until his death in 1760, at which point the chateau there was stripped by the king and left to ruin. It is possible that Gaston did not die when he supposedly did, but was involved in yet another rebellion plot, and so the king decided to make him "dissappear" to remove any further threat. So he was erased and become someone else, but not killed since he was the king's uncle.

[@shock_n_Aweful]

The "stud" theory doesn't fit with treating him like a royal, if Voltaire did invent that part then it makes perfect sense. The "twin" theory seems unlikely because what mother would be ok with her child being hidden away because of a potential problem for her other son? If he was just a valet that knew too much, I think he would have been quietly killed and why would it be so important to hide his face. Maybe he was a bastard of Louis XIII that looked so much like him that it was a threat. The fact that he wasn't just killed suggests he had to have some sentimental importance to Louis XIV

[@ttt2080]

This whole story is very Game of Thrones-ish, mysterious prisoners, secret children, palace intrigue, international wars.

[@PatriciaPalmer-o3e]

I take small issue. Thrones is very Dumas like ! Three Musketeers AND Count of Monte Cristo, so many ! Victor Hugo's work, and Don Quixote, shelves of different authors, each with an eye for telling a great tale. All this original material, many authors having lived lives as colorful, if not moreso, than their characters. Then... the 1st rock star.. Byron..whose wife in the early 1800s said he is "mad, bad and dangerous to know" she really is - a " fine" one, his life so outrageous, original and he so genius he makes Jim Morrison and River Phoenix look like 2 sopranos in the Vienna Boy Choir and his daughter, dear God a gene pool so filled with talent it requires its own train, a mathematician and truly invents writing code while she seduces some pre tee wild and unusual characters. and WHAT?? A tv serial stuns a Covid zoned public who almost immediately fall into Mass Stockholm Syndrome, their captors a coupla B list Hollywood producers and a streaming service. The poor prisoners unfamiliar with characters and storylines far more well drawn sitting in quiet shelved rooms waiting for them

[@MrAgonizomai]

Surely it’s a case of, which came first? Game of Thrones builds on all kinds of weird and wonderful history and legend from across the world, set in a world that draws on history and fantasy fiction. It’s GOT that is derived, not this story, though the legends around it are both creative and probably also derivative.

[@lukemedlicott3648]

No game of thrones is based on the wars of the roses hun

[@lukemedlicott3648]

​@@PatriciaPalmer-o3eliterally not at all

[@eshaibraheem4218]

Here, here!​@@PatriciaPalmer-o3e

[@nozrep]

citing the contemporaneous sources was awesome. But also, I am so additionally curious of possible secondary sources? Because, it appears between the year 1687 cited in the contemporaneous source, between that time and the time of Alexandre Dumas’s novels and writings, say about, 150 or 200 years… between that time it would appear that some sort of famous legend grew up around it. A legend large enough for it to be famous enough for Dumas to immortalize it in his novels. So then, I am secondarily super curious, like, how did Dumas know about it? What were his sources? Or could it indeed have been just a “folk legend” that somehow got passed down orally for 150 years?

[@nozrep]

ok ok i commented that while listening but before they had mentioned how Voltaire coined the phrase man in the iron mask. So i typed my question too soon. Question answered!!😅

[@jenniferdnoseworthy2348]

That was great! Thanks 😊

[@danaglabeman6919]

Look at the portraits. Louis XIV looks EXACTLY like Maria de Medici, his grandmother. Draw a mustache and black curly wig over her and you can't tell the difference. If Louis XIV's father wasn't Louis XIII (I'm not sold it was: a 37/39 year old suddenly having 2 healthy babies after 23 years of miscarriages? ) then I think the only other option would be Gaston, Louis XIII's younger brother. (Phillipe, Louis XIV's younger brother, looks just like their mother but with the same chin as both Louis XIII and Gaston). Louis XIII and Gaston looked so much alike that it wasn't much of a risk looks wise if that's what happened. But I'm convinced that, whichever was the bio father, Louis XIV was absolutely a grandson of Maria de Medici and Henri IV.

[@airbear8240]

I always think it’s cool to have discussions about this and theories, but at the end of the day, we’re never going to know and it’s always gonna remain a mystery lol

[@fikanera838]

I used to watch the 1977 film starring Richard Chamberlain regularly as a child. It was frequently repeated on telly in Australia.

[@genighmartin4999]

Yes. He played ain a few movies like this. I had such a crush on Richard

[@carolbaughan8768]

Everyone did❤

[@kriss2111]

I thought the story was written about the authors father who was imprisoned for a number of years Italy. General Alexander Dumas.

[@minsalbooks]

That would be The Count of Monte Cristo.

[@johnkelly3886]

If he was a valet who knew too much, they would have just bumped him off. His identity must have been of critical importance. And, his status was such that he could not be liquidated. He must have been under royal protection.

[@pendorran]

I give this episode an extra point for that shot at The Guardian.

[@jamiemcvay130]

I had read that he didn’t wear an iron mask but a velvet mask. He was the father of the king, not the brother of the king. He would have revealed that the king was illegitimate.

[@bookaufman9643]

I'm only 2/3 of the way through but my guess is that it would have been the former head of finances. I don't know if he's even going to be set up as a candidate but it seems like he was made to disappear and he was a nobleman. For all I know he died in jail but I'm just saying...

[@robertleonard4995]

Has anyone even looked with a metal detector for this mans grave?

[@johntaplin3126]

Dominic's French accent had a hint of Welsh, bon jour, dai.

[@kevinrienecker9534]

Props for the Flash Gordon movie reference! :)

[@yannmaenden7236]

French was widely spoken in England by the nobility at this time, the fact that he didn't have an English accent means little. And there must have been a reason why he wore a mask - almost certainly so he wasn't recognised. So rather than just looking for significant French people who disappeared perhaps you could also look on the opposite side of la Manche to see if anybody vanished. Perhaps one of Charles's illegitimate offspring or some friend of the Queen.

[@dougcortes6567]

What about this… he was privy to the details of the hidden treaty, so he couldn’t be allowed to roam around, but he could be called on by the king to verify the treaty as a witness if ever needed, and in exchange he would be allowed to live a relatively comfortable life, but in a prison. I don’t recall if they say it here or I read it somewhere else, but I recall someone saying he only wore the mask when we was transferred or if some came to see him.

[@paullewis2413]

Really enjoyed this discussion. I have always thought this story was fiction however it appears to have historical attributes. I recently read Tom Holland’s book “Persian Fire” he makes historical subjects come alive.

[@thanksfernuthin]

I don't think it's necessary to leap to Voltaire lying. If there's lying being done it's likely from the prisoners and guards trying to tell an interesting story. And... maybe he was a valet but he was a dead ringer for the king. Maybe they shared the same father. That would be a reason for a mask. Also, I wouldn't think the lack of an order to put him in a mask disproves anything. They did still talk to each other back then. "Hey... put him in a mask."

[@bengray4149]

History & fiction making very strange bedfellows, with Mr Holland's uniquely camp take on the MITIM.

[@washingtoncommandcenter5541]

"If it's brilliant material for a novel it probably didn't happen" GRRM would disagree

[@tesserakt54]

Oliver Reed played Athos.

[@draconanam4605]

I thought Kiefer Sutherland was Athos, Charlie Sheen played Aramis and Oliver Reed was Porthos.

[@sushanart]

Oliver Reed was Athos in the 1973 version.

[@livingincaptivityIII]

​@@draconanam4605You were thinking of Oliver Platt.

[@emilialarsson496]

what if the king travelled like a prisoner for privacy ?and maybe it was a escape plan if the castle was invaded by angry masses of people

[@vb8801]

I find it hard to believe a King would be willing to travel like a prisoner on a regular basis.

[@emilialarsson496]

@@vb8801 you are probably right , but its why it would have worked

[@hglundahl]

36:54 If Mattioli had secrets that could bring down the monarchy, and they were shut up, he may have become the secret that brought down the monarchy.

[@Andrinni0]

it was louis real father...therefor the miracle but a dna test of louis the xiii and xiv would solve the mistery

[@Georgieastra]

The version that I heard was that the prisoner was the doppelganger of the king and was also the son of an officer of the guard. The implication was that the officer had fathered both men and that's Louis the 14th may well have been considered illegitimate. Louis could not bring himself to kill his innocent brother but he had to keep him under wraps. This would explain the mask but also the deferential treatment.

[@fishbone2921]

I enjoyed this so much. Thank you.

[@davidbarrass]

If it was a valet, why not just bump him off? Maybe he witnessed something and that witness was of value, e.g. blackmail, maybe even Charles II (attending mass would be pretty juicy). But then why was the mask necessary? If you were blackmailing someone wouldn't you want it to be known to your victim that your witness was ready to speak at anytime? Maybe the mask was symbolic, "toe the line or I'll unmask my witness". As such it would be a message to someone rather than being about the prisoner. Possibly the identity was kept secret after his death to keep the victim on the hook. I can enjoy speculation as much as Dumas and Voltaire 🙂

[@GazilionPT]

The funny thing is not only D'Artagnan is based on a real character (Charles de Batz de Castelmore, Count d'Artagnan), but so are Athos, Porthos, Aramis, and Monsieur de Tréville, the captain of the Royal Musketeers. Athos = Armand, Seigneur de Sillègue, d'Athos, et d'Autevielle Porthos = Isaac de Porthau Aramis = Henri, Seigneur d'Aramitz M. de Trévile = Jean-Armand du Peyrer, Comte de Troisville Even funnier: contrary to what the book tells us, not only D'Artagnan was a Gascon - they all were! In fact, the real Athos was a first cousin of the real Porthos and a first cousin once removed of the real M. de Tréville, who in turn was the uncle of the real Aramis and a personal friend of an uncle of the real D'Artagnan.

[@jeremygraves1720]

Not doubting a word... but if Voltaire was born in 1694 and the Man in the Iron Mask died in 1703... how could Voltaire witness this aged 7...?

[@fiachramaccana280]

There was no particular special treatment. Not in the sense of VIP treatment. His treatment was consistent with somebody who was viewed as an important (read very dangerous) prisoner. Not in a physical sense but rather because of what he knew. Hence it was determined that he could neither be released nor be allowed to mingle inside prison. He worked as a valet for Fouquet in prison. For somebody of noble birth let alone royal blood that would have been unheard of. Utterly unheard of. As it would undermine the entire system of preferment and nobility based on blood. Royalty/nobility would never serve others in the capacity of a lowly domestic servant. Making him into Fouquet's valet was a safe choice because Fouquet would never be released either and knew tons of secrets. So allowing a "valet" with secrets to mix with him was deemed an acceptable risk. Two men with secrets who would never talk to outsiders. The mask was made of velvet not iron. And seems to have only been worn only in later life. His prison governor who carted him around like a piece of baggage cleverly built up the image of the "important prisoner" to further his own career. There is no paperwork supporting the decision to place him in a mask. And surely if there was a need to do so to prevent identification it would have been done from the beginning of his incarceration. When he was young. Waiting several decades to place him in a mask smacks of a performative action to suit the ambition of the governor. Louis 15th (Louis 14th's grandson and heir) is said to have admitted in private conversation in the middle of the 18th century that the masked prisoner was involved in a minor capacity in secret diplomacy/intrigue with I believe Savoy. And was deemed to have betrayed French interests. This explains all the known facts. Like many mysteries it has turned into a cottage industry with lots of conspiracy theorists and famous authors (Voltaire, Dumas)milking it. The truth is likely to be a lot more mundane.

[@livingincaptivityIII]

A valet is not a "lowly" servant.

[@fiachramaccana280]

@@livingincaptivityIII dear me. A servant in the 17th century was a clearly defined status. If he had been of noble birth but serving.... the language used would be different. Lady in waiting....for example...is somebody of noble birth serving a monarch or royalty. As you can see the title is different. A valet was a man servant of normal/humble birth. You can argue fact all day long. It changes nothing. Fact is fact. It might be inconvenient for you. But it is still fact. Treating 17th folk as idiots who used words carelessly is a very poor argument.

[@livingincaptivityIII]

@@fiachramaccana280 Spoken as a true, pompous, 21st c. idiot. The day that I would ever refer to my lady's maid as a "lowly" servant, I give her permission to shave my head!

[@fiachramaccana280]

@@livingincaptivityIII to add to this. A nobleman who served might be called a " valet de chambre" A valet meant a domestic servant born to a humble family. The 17th century had rules and made clear distinctions between courtiers and servants. The language proves this. The man in the iron mask was a valet. Not a valet de chambre.

[@fiachramaccana280]

@@livingincaptivityIII Louvois literally described him as " only a valet". You know who Louvois was right?

[@frankhainke7442]

When I was young I read that Eustache d'Auger looked similar to the king and used it for sexual affairs. And that was the explanation for the mask. On the other hand I read that Louis XV said that he felt sorry for this man as he did not deserve that sentence. So, we do not know.

[@jeanerickson3865]

Fascinating.

[@adriend7134]

Great episode, as always ! As others, I would personally bet for someone of higher social position than "just" a valet. It seems making no sense a valet - whatever the person would know - to be given such importance (lettre de cachet, the mask, the correspondence around it, etc).

[@judithstrachan9399]

Unless he also had blackmail-worthy information…..

[@HonkerTonic]

Oliver Reed was Athos

[@sigurdholbarki8268]

Voltaire has the journalistic standards if the guardian. I'm not sure if I spat more tea across the room, or inhaled more....

[@martiningle5970]

You can pretend all you want, but anyone who claims they're not thinking of the theme tune to Dogtanian And The Three Muskerhounds, is lying.

[@hglundahl]

46:34 He is said to have converted on his deathbed. Belloc thinks so, and Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson wrote a novel about (purportedly) the priest who gave him the last rites.

[@shindogcity8536]

“The jailer is not a key player.” Awesome pun, lost to history!

[@malvanlondon8683]

Where can I stream that excellent old documentary on this subject presented by Henry Lincoln?

[@tedtalksrock]

Ask a librarian

[@tonyh765]

What if it was a female prisoner? Hence the velvet mask, the governor standing up etc. Has that been considered?

[@helzapoppin9810]

It's key that the prisoner had to be someone of public renown; someone whose face would be recognizable (otherwise, why conceal his face?). This would seriously restrict potential candidates to either someone familiar to the public or who resembles someone familiar to the public - the latter feeding the notion that if he resembled the king, he would have to be either his brother or father.

[@susanmercurio1060]

I am just reading The Man in the Iron Mask. Dumas claimed that Philip, the man who ended up in the iron mask, was Louis XIV's twin younger brother. Aramis got hold of him and wanted to use him to replace Louis. I was surprised to find out that Louise de la Valliere was real.

[@mtngrl5859]

Louise was Louis first official mistress, she was the mother of several of his children. She didn't have the temperament to be a royal mistress & decided to devote herself to a religious life.

[@elviejodelmar2795]

It would be impossible for a man to wear an iron mask that was never removed because his beard would ultimately grow to the point that it would smother him.

[@irvinelawrence2733]

Flaw and fallacy- not all men grow full facial hair or beards😂

[@patriciajrs46]

A couple of questions for you: 1), wouldn't a twin, who had been secreted away, be able to be classified in your 'no person of importance had been reported missing' theory? If no one knew about the twin, except the midwife, doesn't it make sense that no one would be aware of his importance? I believe the Musketeers' account of Philip being the prisoner. That's just me. Maybe he did go by that Eustache name. If he was the twin, they couldn't call him Philip. Next question, 2), Is there any proof that Ann may have slept with Athos? You did say there seemed to be proof that she did have twins, the second born 4 hours later than the first. Right? Next, 3), where was that unmarked grave that you spoke of? Dig it up and do all the scientific tests on the bones! Sequence the dna and find out if any of those unknown skeletons have relations to known French families! The unmarked grave, if the person was in a steel mask, or and iron mask, either should set off a metal detector. Ground penetrating radar should help find metals and deposits of rust, concentrated chemicals, and a casket's remains. If this prisoner truly was important, would he be buried without a good box? I don't think so. Just some ideas and my questions. I love Dumas' stories. I would love to know the truth.

[@judithstrachan9399]

42:30 The valet could still have been a high nobleman serving the king, and/or the fictitious stud.

[@SailorYuki]

I find the Musketeers hillarious. They're called the MUSKETeers, yet not once do they cary nor fire a weapon of any sort. The Three Musketeers is my favorite book. I've read many of Dumas' books, but the Three is the best of them. The man in the iron mask the worst. The movie is brilliant though, one of my favorites. Especially the soundtrack.

[@harrietharlow9929]

Maybe Louis XIV was into gun control?

[@timtheskeptic1147]

They kind of explain that in the book by having the main characters constantly complain about how expensive powder and shot are. Plus, they're officers. And at the time officers were prohibited from using a regular infantryman's weapon. So, it was pistols and swords for them. And that rule for officers not using enlisted men's general issue weapons lasted a disturbingly long time in most militaries.

[@timtheskeptic1147]

Louis XIV was actually very pro-gun. He spent huge amounts of money on developing better guns and producing them.

[@susanmercurio1060]

I agree that The Man in the Iron Mask is the worst of Dumas' books. I have been reading it and Dumas lost the willing suspension of my disbelief.

[@nct948]

don't we have another recorded date which could be when this valet died(assuming he isn't the one with the mask?) Has his body never been exhumed now that we could identify him by his DNA? (to clear whether he was of royal linage). Why would his imprisonment be such an important secret, necessitating that his face is never seen so as not to be recognised ? It doesn't seem to make much sense. This man's imprisonment and the fate of the Dauphin (Louis XVI's son) are 2 mysteries of the French history.

[@NeilmacRory]

I spent this whole time scratching my head and ears, and rubbing eyes.

[@TEMindset83702]

Also the tv movie version starring Richard Chamberlain and Jenny Agutter.

[@blackcat2628zd]

It was a movie movie 😄. I saw it a couple of times in cinema. Beautiful.

[@CLAPGriffin]

Was Horatio from CSI Miami based on Chris Hanson?? They have such similar mannerisms and way of speaking...

[@Lucinda-zr9su]

Louis the 14th had been the longesr reigning monarch in history until Elizabeth the 2nd out lasted him by 2 yrs. You had that backwards. She now has the title of the worlds longest reigning monarch. ( u go girl !)

[@martlaas-ce8ir]

This whole conversation is very interesting but disregards the mindset of these times. If this man was such a threat to the king then why wasn't he simply killed? Why keep a threat alive when you can end it? The only reason not to do that would have been that he was a royalty or at least of high nobility. This would explain why Louis himself took interest in him, why they went through so much trouble etc. Killing a royal was out of the question, killing a valet definitely not.

[@louisduplessis2075]

The jailer is not a key player...bit of an unintended pun.

[@MisterApol]

What do you think of the theory that Dauger was involved in the Affair of the Poisons, with such notorious characters as Madame de Brinvilliers?

[@karenbrayton2411]

Oliver Reed was Athos. Frank Finley was Porthos. DArtagnan was actually Charles DArtagnan.

[@floraposteschild4184]

If he were only a valet, did no one remark on his lower class accent? How did "Eustache" behave: like a servant or like a gentleman? And--why the mask?

[@valcarlin2537]

Aristocrats in Britain had local accents at that time I'd guess it was the same in France The so called aristractic accent was made up to distinguish them from the nouveau riche about 150 years ago

[@ardeladimwit]

the problem with the "stud" theory coming from England, is that the Governor would not stand in his presences as he is just a common blackmailer. Twin brother is more likely as he would be higher status by birth, but actually if Louis was so ruthless, then he would have done away with him as an infant via exposure, poisoning or whatnot--accidental sudden infant syndrome, head injury, etc. So reason comes back to a political opponent who may have been quite close to the King but a threat to the throne... Nobody would recognize an infant who has grown up with a hidden face, so the face would have to be recognizable for the helmet to be fitted so tightly... so think it's more likely an adult opponent or outspoken critic that "died" in battle or sent off on mission to vanish which is easily managed. You just send an envoy to the Pope or England on fabricated who never arrives and declare him dead, stage fake funeral or whatever--and actually Voltaire himself would be an ideal figure for the person, so would probably many others.

[@anyagetman8596]

Haha the valet MIGHT have had the governor stand in this presence if the governor didn't know who he was!

[@irvinelawrence2733]

They claim the older twin pushes out the younger one, to kind of check things on the outside😂

[@angelabarnes7588]

What if he was a Royal that had been declared dead? Like, lost at sea or something like snatched off a battlefield? W/an unmarked grave, ya can't exactly exhume for DNA, right? But I think an identical twin would have been done away with at birth. That one would be pretty hard to hide.

[@Betty-qz5zd]

Unless they needed a spare, just in case number 1 died.