Historical Adam Updates and the New Four Views Book

[@MarkVincent-v4i]

What I like most about Craig.... 1. He is not afraid to do research and study that others would not attempt. He faces doubters and fear mongers in his own theological tradition and even outsiders such as his circle of Christian friends and scholars in other traditions. At the same time, allows for critical analysis for scholarly integrity and accountability. Thank you!!!! 2. He is first biblical and allows his research to give its own evidence to move forward using other ways for proper interpretation ie, literary genre, science, archeology, etc... 3. His multiplicity of methodological approaches ie. Theology and philosophy, and literary genres to understand the biblical text and in turn he is able to interpret it appropriately.

[@rebanelson607]

Well said!

[@parableproductionsvideo]

Great conversation!

[@rebanelson607]

Excellent explanation of "myth"! This video has been immeasurably helpful to me. Many thanks!

[@gustavomarquez1856]

I would love to listen to Dr. Craig's updated view on justification!!

[@parableproductionsvideo]

He has a 12 part series, I believe, as part of his "Defenders" series which can be found on KZbin. Also, this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXiQmaZpZtmMipY

[@midimusicforever]

WLC is awesome!

[@matswessling6600]

😂

[@gfujigo]

So true!

[@dpcrn]

You asked a combined question about defining a myth and then how Moses would have looked at these and borrowed from elsewhere. He did a great job of discussing the myth, but did not get to the second question. I would love to have gotten that insight.

[@truincanada]

Sean thanks. Cant see the Biola updated on line certification course link. Im going to do that to start and then another Master 's. Thoughts?

[@toma3447]

It’s interesting hearing about a historical Adam. I think genesis is theological. The whole book God is teaching us theology. I’m ok with that and I hold to theistic evolution with the Big Bang. And Genesis still contains a prophecy about Jesus. It still explains free will and sin. I don’t believe in a sinful nature anymore. God’s creation, everytime he made something, said it was good. Sin only comes from our free will. Adam and Eve eating the fruit was the deciding for themselves what was good and evil/subjective morality instead of Gods objective morality.

[@ji8044]

You are correct. Genesis is not a science textbook.

[@josephthomas2226]

I think you want to be careful about sinful nature. There's something that the Bible calls flesh that goes against our spirit. Of course we're not guilty of Adam's sin but there's something about being human that we have a tendency to rebel against god. We have free will and can choose not to sin. And I disagree with Craig that if Adam did not exist the point would not exist because the point of the story is the humans chose to rebel against God and Romans 3 tells us that all of us have chosen to do that. So it's not about original sin it's just this is what we do. And of course you are correct the Genesis is all about theology and not necessarily science or even history, although I think they are historical people

[@ChristianTrinity411]

Quite the pronunciation of “genre” lol

[@robbaggett1127]

I personally reconcile the matter as God created the entire universe and put creation in motion for life to evolve. I believe He interceded to create Adam and Eve to represent the first of His chosen children, as well as the homosapien species, and therefore their lineage is separate from other human species that derived from evolution. This helps me explain how there were people that Cain was afraid of and how the sons of God bred with the daughters of man, which explains to me the DNA mix that is found in people today.

[@rebanelson607]

That's pretty much my take on the issue, too.

[@TheFourlom]

Hi. What is the benefit of having inorganic matter mysteriously morph into organic matter (and eventually into human life)? I guess I'm asking you to step in God's shoes and see the God's-eye perspective on how this enhances the world? Are you saying you can't envision a spontaenous creation? How would an infant survive without an adult human to care for it (and give instructions, such as, "Here's how you drink water to stay alive")?

[@robbaggett1127]

@@TheFourlom As I stated God interceded to create Adam and Eve. I made no claim to how He did so, be it spontaneous or slow develolpment! I believe William Lane Craig has stated before that he belives God is a being of processes and not just spontaneously developing a finished being such as instantly a duck or any other type of species. I personally believe God could do it either way though.

[@BiblicalStudiesandReviews]

I doubt Dr. Craig has time to read these comments personally. But I had an opportunity to interview Dr. Jason Lisle and I asked him about Dr. Craig’s claim that YEC is an embarrassment. His response was telling. Dr. Craig would equally be welcome on my channel to defend those comments should he be inclined. Though we don’t agree on this topic, I have learned a great deal from Dr. Craig and appreciate his ministry.

[@ji8044]

Craig was correct. There is a reason that the YEC "scientists" don't work in their respective fields. Lisle has never worked as an astrophysicist after getting his doctorate. Of course he had to lie to get it in the first place, like all creationists do.

[@daviddivad777]

i would love to see a debate between Craig and Listle. i do agree with craig that it's an embarrassment on a scientific level, not hermeneutical. i also would love a debate between Jason and Erika (Gutsick Gibbon) but doubt Jason would dare.

[@BiblicalStudiesandReviews]

@ well I would be happy to host them both to do such a debate. Dr. Lisle has debated Hugh Ross so I’m guessing he wouldn’t be afraid of a debate with Dr. Craig. But I personally wouldn’t want to debate Craig on anything. He is probably the best debater of our time. But I would be happy to host a more informal discussion between the two also.

[@daviddivad777]

@@BiblicalStudiesandReviews agreed, Craig is a great debater. the debate i think Dr. Lisle would fear is versus gutsick gibbon about stuff like common ancestor or stuff like the heat problem and radiometric dating. i base this on the brief interaction they had which you can find on her channel.

[@jpl377]

Thanks Sean, great discourse, always great to probe the mind of WLC. On the side issue of the flood, I find it interesting that Craig warns against "local" flood interpretations and yet offers a myth-based interpretation as an alternative.. just seems ironic I guess :) ("Myth" properly defined, I know.) One of the best scientific explanations of the flood (that manages to retain a literal Biblical interpretation) is from Hugh Ross, and I'll link below. Ross upholds that the Bible considers it a "worldwide" flood, though not a "global" flood (yes, go ahead and read that again... [i.e. "world" = known world of human expansion]). It's not even that controversial since the word "mountains" that the scripture refers to, have a semantic range that includes "high hills", perfectly allowable for a local region. Anyway, watch the talk if you're interested, very strong case is made. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gYXYhnZ3oNV7i7Msi=fAMK_izs5VxMNGOy

[@PuppetryInMotion]

If Eve didn't come out of Adam's flesh (he said she was taken out of him, flesh and bone Gen 2:23), then Jesus Christ was not the same flesh as Adam, which means He couldn't be the Last Adam, or the Redeemer of the human race. The woman's offspring (Jesus) will crush the head of the serpent (Gen 3:15) because through her Jesus received Adam's flesh without having to inherit his sin nature, or the curse of death. Jesus, the only begotten (genetic) Son of God, inherited His Father's Righteous nature and eternal life instead. In Christ, the First Resurrection, the faithful have God's Righteousness imputed to them, become adopted children of Almighty God, and receive eternal life. They become new Creatures. The unrighteous who deny Jesus Christ, stay condemned to death, because their father remains the First Adam. If Jesus doesn't die in Adam's same flesh (the substitutionary Sacrifice had to be like-for-like, sinless flesh for sinful flesh), there would be no means of escape from Adam's inheritance for anyone. (The Roman Catholic Church teaches that not only does Jesus have special divine flesh, not from Adam at all, but that Mary had her flesh supernaturally changed to sinless, as well. To deny that Jesus Christ came in the same flesh of Adam is antichrist).

[@МихаилРусский-ц8я]

It seems that Dr. Craig simply presupposes that modern science of anthropology and dating of the artifacts and fossils are correct. That’s what he should’ve investigated first, I think.

[@pausuansian1863]

👍

[@stephenkaake7016]

he should interview, I was given a piece of paper and a writing utensil, I am Jesus Christ, interview me, the Lord of Lilith and Leo

[@ChristianTrinity411]

Not so sure about the genealogies being evidence of mytho-history rather than pure myth, but I’m on the fence…

[@ji8044]

No human ever has lived or could live up to 900 years. That's actually a very easy one.

[@ChristianTrinity411]

@ Well, I think “could live” would require naturalism to completely rule that out…

[@ji8044]

@@ChristianTrinity411 It 100% DOES rule that out.

[@ChristianTrinity411]

@@ji8044 No, God COULD miraculously preserve a person’s life for even thousands of years if He wanted to.

[@ji8044]

@@ChristianTrinity411 No only that but he could stop the rotation of the Earth to help Joshua and leave no trace of it, right?

[@jewadkins]

One thing that’s interesting is that if we have a better understanding than those of the father’s does that mean we have a better understanding than those that actually wrote the scriptures and what they meant? What I mean here is the ancients are the ones who wrote these scriptures, what did they mean? Did they mean that they believed in an evolutionary theory and those after them just misunderstood them. Did the writer of Genesis know about modern science and therefore the things that were written were written from that modern perspective. In other words, we are trying to understand what these writers meant but we’re doing it from a modern interpretation not from what the writer(s) meant, which, to me, means the ancient writers may not align with modern understanding but it means that we have to accept did these writers know what they are talking about and that their writings we’re inspired, or were they writing under inspiration but didn’t know what they were talking about. Either way it would seem that they did not mean what modern interpreters would have them mean.

[@togborne]

Ha, so Low Bar Bill’s sneaky admission was that because the traditional/orthodox view goes against science, he’ll reinterpret the text, lol.

[@rubenhollander]

Maybe interview Marcus Ross on this topic/book, to provide counterweight to some of the claims made in this interview?

[@ji8044]

Which Marcus Ross, the one whose doctoral dissertation was written based on an old earth timeline or the one who lies about it today and says the Earth is only 6,000 years old?

[@daviddivad777]

i read Craig's (great) book about the historical Adam and agree that evolution is compatible with Christianity generally speaking. Personally, though, I am having a hard time with the fact that (if evolution is true) there was death, sickness, and suffering before the fall. it does not line up with my intuitions about a very good creation, and more importantly (because I could be mistaken about those intuitions) it seems to go against certain Biblical principles and God's character. so I am still in deconstruction and not sure where it will lead. scary stuff.

[@maylingng4107]

The only truth in the bible is just the page numbers. WLC is a compulsive liar.

[@shouheyou5993]

Two Christian philosophers have dealt with the problem of animal suffering. Their recent books may well be helpful to you: Michael Murray, NATURE RED IN TOOTH AND CLAW: THEISM AND THE PROBLEM OF ANIMAL SUFFERING; Andrew Loke, EVIL, SIN AND CHRISTIAN THEISM.

[@daviddivad777]

@@shouheyou5993 I am aware. That is also addressed in a great book I read, Reformed Theology and Evolutionary Theory, by Gijsbert van den Brink. But it's not about animal suffering. One could (like Craig) hold to neo-Cartesianism and claim that animals are unaware of their suffering. The problem is that IF evolution is true there is a long chain of humans and hominins that ARE aware of suffering. and there is sickness and death BEFORE the fall, which I can't call a good creation.

[@daviddivad777]

@@shouheyou5993 also, A good read on this is some articles about the type of suffering I meant in this book: The Blackwell Companion to The Problem of Evil by McBrayer 2013

[@SC-gc5td]

@@maylingng4107 Why don’t you tell us the top three lies that WLC has told? Also, tell us how you know he is lying, meaning how do you know that he is aware of the truth but decided to tell a lie instead?

[@ChristianTrinity411]

Didn’t Moses, who wrote Genesis (right?) probably live in the 1400’s B.C.?

[@ji8044]

He would have, had he lived at all of course.

[@ChristianTrinity411]

@ Well, he appeared to Jesus, along with Peter, James, and John at the Transfiguration, so he definitely lived…

[@ji8044]

@@ChristianTrinity411 Funny thing though, the writer who wrote that wasn't there.

[@ChristianTrinity411]

@@ji8044 I don’t require that for reliability.

[@ji8044]

@@ChristianTrinity411 Well of course not.

[@thethreeofus2620]

No one bastardizes the sacred text more than WLC.

[@ji8044]

There was no historical Adam. All cultures have foundation myths and many Middle Eastern cultures have gods making people from clay. It is difficult to say whether they believed this had actually happened or it was a way of representing a concept. Pottery making was among the earliest human skills beyond hunting and gathering but curiously enough developed later in the Middle East than any other part of the out of Africa diaspora (or the earliest sources there have not been discovered yet). For instance the Tepe cultures of Turkey are at least 11K years old but used stone vessels and had no pottery. The earliest gods of a culture usually represent what skills and attributes that the culture values the most. We know that monotheism was not the earliest Hebrew belief system so perhaps the oral tradition of Adam and Eve, much older of course than the written book, was placing Yahweh at the center of their own religious lives in a different way than for instance the gods of the hunt or the gods of war. It's a fascinating topic.

[@nemrodx2185]

"All cultures have foundation myths..." Yeah, sure, same with atheistic foundation and creation myths. Those are the laziest ones. Those are probably the ultimate demonstration of blind faith.

[@ji8044]

@@nemrodx2185 This is adult swim right now. When you hear the whistle blow, then it will be time for you to get back in the pool.

[@nemrodx2185]

@@ji8044 "This is adult swim right now..." Silence grants...

[@andreaurelius45]

Listen to these guys...they think READING is going to take the place of the other Spiritual Disciplines of Prayer, Fasting, Almsgiving, AND THE EUCHARIST....not to mention the other Sacraments. Listen to what they describe- " working through the EMOTIONS AND THOUGHTS" really??? Do these guys think the Church Fathers just sat around and READ??? WE EVEN SEE JESUS in Prayer and Fasting. You know, GOD, involved in these things so that we may see and know something about HOW Christians should seek Spiritual wisdom. Faith is in the DOING. Not in the READING. Reading the Holy Scriptures are part and parcel of the Life. DON'T FORGET THE REST OF IT.

[@rebanelson607]

Prayer and fasting are to be done in secret, aren't they?

[@andreaurelius45]

@rebanelson607 it is not a pharasaic religion anymore. We do have a spirit of humbleness when it is done, and there is no boasting. Asceticism within The Church is quite alive, and there are spiritual athletes in the parishes and monasteries. The error people make is in attempting to rebuild something that never passed away. Orthodox Christianity is the real thing. The Protestantism you inherit is a movement born from monarchy wanting land and power, coupled with the over reaches of a heretical and abusive church leadership in the city of Rome. Orthodox Christianity was never like that. The people in The Church are not perfect. But The Holy Spirit is there and it has somehow survived to this day. ...that isn't human. But it is also a result of Keeping the Faith. We Cooperate with The Holy Spirit. As we are IN the body of Jesus Christ. All over the west, a broken Spiritual Inheritance is what people have to struggle with. Endless change. Endless fragmentation. Some one always "doing something new" this is folly. I do not want to worship in a way that Christianity of antiquity would never recognize. I want to go to the Church Jesus made. I have no need of a church made by some guy down the street.

[@TheIObook2024]

There is no actual, historical Adam. There is only a theological Adam. The bible’s creation narrative isn’t about the creation of the universe, earth and life leading to a first man made from dirt whose wife was made from a rib who was deceived by a talking snake. It uses elements of creation myths that predated it to describe the creation of a primitive covenant religious system and temple community of Israel, referred to as heaven and earth, with Adam being symbolic for Israel’s first father (Isaiah 43:27) It’s a recapitulation (retelling) of ancient Israel’s history of decline. Genesis chapters 1-11 are an addition to the text, added to the front of the Hebrew canon by Jewish scribes late in Israel’s development. The original history of Israel begins in Genesis 12. It ends in the New Testament with the end of the original heaven and earth (old covenant religious system and temple community) and the new heaven and earth (Jesus’s new covenant religious system and temple community… the church, which were only the elect of Israel). Any modern day interpretation of Genesis as if it is a science textbook describing natural events or the beginning of an historical narrative concerning all humanity demonstrates zero knowledge of how ancient Hebrews thought and interpreted their world.

[@faithfulservantofchrist9876]

You clearly have never talked to a Jew or mainly a Rabbinic Jewish Rabbi. They all know Hebrew well and they take the literal 6-day interpretation. Even more Important is they deny Christ was ever even mentioned in the Tanach. So really is it good to take the Jewish view? I have never heard a Jewish person give your explanation ever.

[@Mentat1231]

Craig doesn't interpret Genesis as "a science textbook", and his work (especially his book, "In Quest of the Historical Adam") addresses theories like the one you mention here, along with others.

[@ji8044]

@@faithfulservantofchrist9876 Today, very few Jews take that position. You are completely wrong. Jews don't support con man Ken Ham and his Creation Museum. Only poorly educated Christians do that.

[@faithfulservantofchrist9876]

@ji8044 I never said that Jews support Ken Ham. If you talk to Jews let's test your knowledge. Is Jesus a descendant of King David? In the Bible lineage comes from the mans side, Jesus is virgin, so he is not blood related to Jesus and therefore can't be a descendant of King David and can't be the Messiah according to Jews. Jesus failed to bring world peace according to Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 2:1-5. So how can he be Messiah if he failed to do what the Messiah was supposed to do? You can find no scripture that says the Messiah will be killed and die for 3 days and rise again according to the scriptures Paul says. No such scripture exists. I'll promise I know all the answers and many more because I have spent years debating with Jews and most Christians have never had a single conversation with Jews and will claim they know what they think.

[@faithfulservantofchrist9876]

@ji8044 Where does Christ use an old earth model to teach from? If you make a claim you have to back it up with evidence and Christ used the literal interpretation to teach from. Christ seems to teach Abel was the first prophet and was killed in the beginning of the world. Weird there's no mention of time before the Bible says so. I would just stop pretending to be a Christian if I was you. I have dozens of scriptures that support a young earth, unless Jesus was lying. Luke 11:50-51 English Standard Version 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. Matthew 19:3-6 3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

[@williamgeorgepeter2969]

WLC is worse than anybody else it seems sure, he says 1-11 Genesis is mytho-history, and it can't be taken literally, and he argues that the book of Revelation can't be taken literally. But here's the fact that WLC & other scholars unaware. God said to Adam, not to eat the forbidden fruit 🍑, if you eat then you would surely die, Genesis 2:17, and they both ate it, and died, meaning God's Spirit indwelled them departed from their physical bodies and instead an unclean Spirit arrived into them. So, Adam & Eve passed over from eternal life unto death or from immortality unto mortality, the Hebrew phrase "Mot ta mote". In contrast now in the NT JESUS said in John 5:24, ... passed over from death unto life as eternal life, this can be said in other words to Passover from mortality unto Immortality. So, Passover from Eternal life unto death happened with Adam & Eve in the beginning and the same is reversed now through JESUS, thus it's possible to Passover from death unto eternal life in the last days as now. Therefore, in those process an unclean Spirit inherited from parents is removed from the body and instead the Holy Spirit is replaced back into the body. Therefore, the nature of events both in Genesis 2:17 as in the beginning & John 5:24 is same as now. WLC says that Genesis 1 -11 is a mytho-history, if so then what he says about the John gospel? Is it too mytho-history?

[@maylingng4107]

The only truth in the bible is just the page numbers.

[@emilclark645]

If you have no historical Adam, then you have no historical Jesus!!!! 1 Corinthians 15:45 The problem with the modern Church, we've left a literal interpretation of the Bible and the Holy Spirit to education, intellectualism and philosophy. Be very careful who you are listening to!!! I listen to a lot of different views from scholars, and there are just as many scholars that believe in a young earth and a literal interpretation of the Bible. Listen to Mr. Craig very very carefully, he will tell on himself. He made a comment about coming to an intellectual peace, What? Jesus said my peace I give you, the peace that passes all understanding. These guys base their understanding of the Bible on their education, and that is very dangerous!!! If the Apostle Paul did that, he would have never got saved, his education was what led him to persecuting the Church. Education IS NOT revelation!!!

[@toma3447]

@@emilclark645 You can still have historical Jesus without a literal Adam. I hate to break this to you but Adam is like a character in one of Jesus parables. God is a story teller, this is why we constantly see Jesus telling stories or parables to teach people.

[@emilclark645]

@toma3447 That's how much you understand about the Scriptures, names are not given in parables!!!! Don't be deceived by nonsense, they don't even have a good argument, nobody in Christian world believes there wasn't a literal Adam, the Biblical writer's believed it. These guys have a huge problem, and nobody believes it anyway.

[@toma3447]

@ In Luke’s gospel Jesus gives a parable about Lazarus and the rich man. So there is a name in this parable. Your pastor won’t tell you his seminary secrets. Genesis has truth in it about the world we live in but the characters aren’t literal. We can still sin without there being a literal Adam. The story clearly shows that our sin comes from our own free will. The Big Bang is very good evidence for God. There is no reason to fear a non literal interpretation that goes with modern science. Thomas Aquinas said reason and revelation can never contradict each other. That means the Bible and science can’t contradict each other. The writers of genesis weren’t scientists but God was still a hypothesis and I think they were right we do have a creator!

[@emilclark645]

@toma3447 My friend, get saved and read the Bible for yourself, and then you will know the Truth!!! NO unsaved person can understand the Bible, it is impossible!!! 1 Corinthians 2:14

[@toma3447]

@@emilclark645 I am saved. Its Gods promise or else God is a liar. Differences between theology between denominations is not a salvation issue. I gave you a parable with a name in it and you still didn’t address it.