Historical Comparison: Finland's Winter War vs Russian Invasion of Ukraine

utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
I have been reading about the Winter War in past few months as part of my work on a book about Finnish small arms, and I have been really struck by the similarity in images of that fighting and the current war in Ukraine. I'd like to take a few minutes today to talk about the similarities - and differences - between Ukraine and Finland's fighting against Russian and Soviet invasion.
Both invasions were launched over Russian/Soviet concern over border security, and both with attempts at false flag attacks as justification. In both cases the Russian/Soviet forces were vastly overconfident in their ability to quickly defeat their opponents, and in both cases they expected to be met with significant Finnish.Ukrainian domestic support. In both cases, those assumptions were completely mistaken, and the invasions instead solidly unified the defenders instead of dividing them. In both cases the defending forces has significantly less air and armor strength that the invading forces.
In the end of the Winter War, Finland's military managed to hold on just barely long enough to conclude an armistice - although they were days or weeks away from complete collapse on the Karelian Isthmus at the end. The treaty cost them about 10% of Finland's sovereign territory, but they retained their independence. A similar outcome is a definite possibility in Ukraine, although Ukraine today has a few major advantages the Finns did not have.
First, international opinion has been massively unified behind Ukraine, and huge amounts of military aid have been send to Ukraine very quickly. In 1939/1940, European assistance was essentially limited to a few thousand volunteer troops from Sweden. France and Britain both talked about sending expeditionary forces to assist Finland, but these were really attempts to block German access to Swedish iron ore and not genuine attempts to assist Finland. In any case, they did not actually happen. Finland spent the entire war desperately short of antitank weapons, and depended on land mines and Molotov cocktails. Ukraine, on the other hand, has been supplied with thousands of modern antitank and antiaircraft missile systems and used them to great effect.
Second, Ukraine is a much larger country than Finland. With the retreat of Russian forces from Kyiv, Ukraine has strategic options that Finland did not. Finland was forced to defend the fixed defences of the Mannerheim Line in a type of warfare that allowed the Soviet forces to concentrate and exploit their advantages in artillery and armor. If the Mannerheim Line fell, Helsinki because essentially defenceless and the war would quickly be lost. Finland had much better military success in the north, where they could retreat and trade territory for time and ambush opportunities. Ukraine does not have an equivalent to the Mannerheim Line, and can be more flexible in its defense. This does not guarantee victory, of course, but it gives them options Finland did not have.
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740

[@AL92LA]

Vyacheslav Mikhaylovich Molotov, Stalin’s foreign minister, claimed the warplanes were airlifting food to the country, not dropping bombs. The Finns responded by dubbing the bombs “Molotov’s bread baskets” and offered to provide drinks-or cocktails-to go with them. State liquor factories had already switched from making vodka to preparing bulk quantities of the improvised incendiary devices, which Finnish troops used with great effect against Soviet armor. The name “Molotov cocktail” stuck and quickly spread around the world.

[@taekatanahu635]

Something should be named after Lavrov as well, so the history does not forget what a liar he was. 😄

[@TheSrSunday]

The Spanish Civil War saw the first employ of gasoline-based incendiary anti tank devices.

[@billbuck3590]

That's a really interesting point about the population difference. For some reason I assumed the ratio would be similar.

[@dinsdalemontypiranha4349]

That is awesome. Thank you so much for sharing this with us.

[@djbadlt]

@@taekatanahu635 too bad Baghdad Bob is already taken!

[@ebrim5013]

Russia seems to have a hard time accepting that their neighbors just aren’t that into them.

[@diegorincon4673]

He's angry that his ex hangs out with the NATO kids.

[@RomanVideos1]

Because europe loves to Kiss american ass? No wonder why everybody are russophobic

[@netyimeni169]

Except that in Ukraine majority of people were pro-russian cause they had democratically elected pro-russian president before 2014 coup. Ukraine is politically divided country. That's why southern Ukraine will either become a separate country or be contantly under Kiev opression. They are still afraid to speak aloud even in cities that are liberated by Russia. Because they know if Russians will retreat Ukrainians will execute them for their words. As they did to a lot of people since 2014.

[@glenmcgillivray4707]

The problem is the neighbors are all fairly clear that if Russia gets into them there is no way to get the sta(l)ins out again.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

It was a similar problem with Vietnamese people simply refusing to become "little Americans" (or French).

[@alaingabriel1710]

I visited Finland's air force museum in Tikkakosky during my summer vacation in Finland in 2006. Inside the museum there were two nearly identical "Soviet" aircraft that the Finns had captured from the Soviets during World War II. They were two United States Bell P-39 Airacobra fighters that ended up there thanks to the Lend-Lease agreement between the US and the USSR. The two planes were in a very good condition because of the special kind of way they were captured by the Finns. On a day where visibility was nearly zero the pilots of the 2 Soviet fighters had gotten lost in the air. They ran out of fuel and were forced to land at the closest airstrip they could finally see. It was a Finnish airstrip! But the pilots had no more fuel, once they had landed and noticed this. Luckily for them it was a smalll desolate airstrip, with nothing but a radio shack near it. The two pilots drew out their service pistols and walked towards the radio shack. A lone Finnish technician , with no working radio at hand and no weapon, had seen the planes land and could see the two pilots walking towards his radio shack with drawn pistols. The technician got out of the shack through a rear window and ran for his life. The Soviet pilots saw him, in the distance, and concluded that he was running to get reinfiorcements. They decided that the best thing to do was to run away in an Easterly direction. towards the Soviet lines. And that was how the two United States Bell P-39 Airacobra fighters were, hum, er, captured.

[@juusstube]

Finland also has other US planes that the Soviet Union used against Finland. The United States sold the machines to Russia(Soviot Union), but Russia promised not to use the machines against Finland ... Yes, they did. It is not worth trusting the Soviet Union(russia)

[@voxaquilonis2162]

Tikkakoski*

[@alaingabriel1710]

@@voxaquilonis2162 Right! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkakoski

[@oneandy2]

@@juusstube Yep. Brewster Buffaloes, which had a godawful reputation in the USN and Marines against the Japanese but stacked up just fine against the Soviet airforce.

[@aymonfoxc1442]

Wow, I haven't heard of too many planes being captured through abandonment!

[@JayMaverick]

As a Finn - did plenty of winter camps during my armed service. -30C in the pitch black forest for weeks at a time is not a joke. With training, good leadership, warm food, good equipment, good teamwork and knowledge (+respect) for frost, it's manageable. If any of that fails, it turns MISERABLE in a hurry. I can only imagine the type of hell the Ruzzians ran into in Finland. Edit: oh and skis of course. It's mandatory for a Finnish soldier to learn cross country skiing. Makes traversing the forest swift and effortless.

[@gamma7897]

I somehow managed to avoid ski marches, bicycle marches and swimming during my service. And I was in the marines.

[@CoffeeConsumer643]

@@gamma7897 i managed to avoid skiing but not bicycle marching and well armored brigade dont do swimming so i didnt do that (Fingers crossed ive still got one excerise).

[@Alikersantti]

@@CoffeeConsumer643 I managed to avoid skiing and bicycle marches. I served in Vekaranjärvi in I-SVP, Viestimies honor perkele!

[@CoffeeConsumer643]

@@Alikersantti Viesti honor on kyl

[@reetikarjalainen4994]

Menen 4 vuoden päästä. Mitä minun pitäisi tehdä ennen kuin olen puolustusvoimissa?

[@sevenproxies4255]

The Mannerheim strategy is something that most Scandinavian countries seek to employ as well. In terms of population, we're rather small countries. We don't have an inexhaustible amount of troops to defend with. So the doctrines focus on making it too expensive for a larger aggressor to occupy the countries. We're too few to stop them from coming in. So it's all about making their stay as fucking miserable and expensive as humanly possible, in order to make any occupation worth attempting.

[@grzegorzbrzeczyszykiewic3338]

Ah yes, another great name for the strategy would be the “ Afghanistan “ strategy

[@herosstratos]

Swedish defense planning during the Cold War was based on the assumption that after a certain number of days NATO forces would become effective in defending Sweden. However, at that time NATO assumed in its planning that the Swedish armed forces would hold out two days longer ...

[@sevenproxies4255]

@@grzegorzbrzeczyszykiewic3338 No, because the conflicts in Afghanistan are more recent than the Scandinavian and Finnish doctrines. Also, Afghanistan employed it with irregular forces. The Scandinavian and Finnish idea is using guerilla tactics with real armies that have access to an airforce, artillery and tanks.

[@thesickrobot6924]

@@nono-jj9rr The Soviet army was in a far more organized and professional state compared to today. That being said, getting through Scandinavian terrains can be an absolute nightmare for vehicles, so maybe yes.

[@itsapittie]

It's a valid strategy for that situation.

[@Niinkai]

My grandmother was a child during Helsinki bombing raids, and she had to go to the shelters many times during the Winter- and Continuation Wars. She wasn't really scared of the bombings themselves, but because the adults in the shelters shook, wept and feared for their lives, through association she developed a phobia of loud noises and would wail and panic even to an advanced age whenever she heard thunder (she died at 60 years old, before I was born, so I never got to meet her). There's really no lesson to be learned here. No adult or child could have done better in those conditions. In many people's minds, war in Ukraine will still rage on 50, 60, 70 years from now.

[@FunkBastid]

Here’s hoping the current invasion ends as quickly as the Winter War.

[@maj.romuloortiz7832]

You have a good point, PTSD & PTSS are horrible, what's been witnessed can't be forgotten at most it can be suppressed mentally

[@ilyavaschillo9631]

We can only hope the fighting stops soon. Too families have been broken.

[@valentinmitterbauer4196]

A few years ago my grandma was in rehab. One evening she went to sleep, not knowing a firework was planned that day. So she only heard the explosions and had been awake half of the night, thinking the war is back. She was a teen girl in WWII and luckily didn't end up in the russian occupation zone.

[@lyrigageforge3259]

My granny never again ate anything made out of swedes aka rutabagas (a kind of root plant), because that was about the only kind of food there was during that time. Factually Winter War and Continuation war the whole era made a kind of constant state of famine sometimes bit better at times worse through out the whole country. Men needed most nutritious food at the front to be able to fight.

[@MaximGhost]

Rules of war with Russia ... (1) Never go to war with Russia during winter (2) If you are Finland, ignore Rule (1)

[@Korvmannen]

I really don't think Soviet could have managed Finland in the summer. The entirety of the eastern border is, in varying proportions, rocks, trees, mires, and bogs. Back then there very few roads. There would have been even fewer paths and more bottlenecks in summer. At least it's possible for a tank to drive over a frozen mire, but not so much a wet one. Or a lake for that matter. If Russia is going to invade the eastern border I don't expect it until nov-dec anyway (unless they just go by sea/for helsinki). Finland's roads on the eastern border aren't that great anyway. Many narrower gravel roads

[@koreanbatman3314]

@@Korvmannen they would had better change on summer because there were lot of soviet soldiers that didnt have enough cloating . -40 is realy cold even with proper clothets. Coming from a finn 🇫🇮

[@slebbeog]

@@Korvmannen And the worst enemy of them all: mosquitos. Noone want's to fight in Finland, if it's summer. There's some mentions about it in WW2 in Finland, how both sides morale took a beating just because of the 3rd army in fight: the aerial fuckyouforce of nature.

[@Korvmannen]

@@slebbeog 😂😂 It's funny I know know it sounds like a joke maybe, but I'm from northern Sweden and know exactly what you mean. I think people will have difficulties believeing just how extreme it can get. As in, imagine medium-heavy rain, but replace all raindrops with mosquitos. It's the same all around the world in the Taiga belt! I always think it's so fascinating to see videos from Siberia or Canada or Alaska and think it looks just like here (at first glance, like even fireweed is there in the picture). Picking cloudberries is one third walking on mire, one third bending down to the ground, and one third not trying to get bitten by mosquitos (when covered head to toe in 20c or something). Though I developed an insane superhuman power ~5 years ago where my mosquite bites never get bigger than a tiny red dot that does not itch even slightly, and even I am extremely bothered.

[@razzor4708]

there are a lot of winter times when ruZZian lost wars so new rule 1- never annex territories from Ukraine or piss off Ukrainians in any seasons

[@lcl7wrkr]

Finnish-American here. As to the air war in Finland during the Winter and Continuation wars…it must be noted that the Finns very much had a hodge-podge of aircraft, lacking in commonality of spare parts etc. The League Of Nations offered very little help, and what help was offered was of dubious usefulness at best. But as soon as the Germans began importing the Bf109G, radar units, etc. the tide began to turn. The highest scoring non-German fighter ace in history was actually a Finn. A mostly accurate video…well, more accurate than most. The Sisu fairy did not sprinkle victory dust upon our troops. What was accomplished was accomplished by blood and bravery. But Finland could not hold much longer. We lost Karelia, but if you could go there and see it now you will understand why we do not wish it’s return.

[@fabioartoscassone9305]

then, when nazis were retreating, trying to pass on your land, u have kicked out them too 🤣🤣 well done

[@Ulyssestnt]

@@fabioartoscassone9305 The nazis who up until then had been aiding them,lets be honest here. But to be fair they didn't have the luxury of choosing who to accept aid from ,it was the german or perish.. This is one of the reasons why some politicians in Germany have such difficulties ramping up aid to ukraine,because that was something they last did during the Hitler regime and therefore its psychologically correlated even if that does make no sense its something palpable in the psychology of many germans. I would argue this was one of the few good things the germans did in ww2,also it started as a war on its own that just became part of the larger global conflict as the sino japanese war of the 30s evolved into the PTO of ww2..

[@fabioartoscassone9305]

@@Ulyssestnt remorse...

[@lcl7wrkr]

@@fabioartoscassone9305 our army was being demobilized at the time the Lapland War began...we needed the war to be over...and most of the adult men were in the Maavoimat, so it was the children who had to force the Germans out of Finland (known as lasten ristiretki, or "Children's Crusade"). It was a complex issue. The Germans assisted the White's during our civil war, and Finns in my family fought in the German army in both WW1 and WW2. We had close ties to the Germans and saw them as friends. But when retreating Germans began destroying Lapland...this was clearly unacceptable. The German military leadership was informed that the Finns could consider a conflict with Germany on a much wider scale. Tens of thousands of battle-hardened Finns trucking cheerfully on their way to bring the fight to Germany was something the Nazis did not desire. But ironically...some Finns and many conscripts from other Axis-occupied countries took part in the Battle Of Berlin, as the Wehrmacht was tied down on all sides at the time, and could not mount a solid defense other than with undertrained and underequipped Volksturm units.

[@rangergxi]

What happened to Karelia? Is it an underdeveloped place full of slums or something?

[@mildey5632]

fun fact: the Finnish air force is one of the oldest air forces in the world, even pre-dating the RAF.

[@PeteCourtier]

By 25 days😂 True enough👍

[@PeteCourtier]

@Aditya Chavarkar not pressed, not weird, just saying.

[@darkiee69]

Another fun fact: The Finnish air forces first plane was a Swedish Thulin D bought by Count Eric von Rosen. The plane was built and test flown in my home town.

[@laurisikio]

@@PeteCourtier cool name you have

[@PeteCourtier]

@@laurisikio cheers🍺🍺 Yes, I am an idiot😂😂

[@Kuolonen]

Funny thing is, according to Soviet Union they had the best of relations with the Finnish government during the Winter war... except what they saw as legitimate government was the Finnish Democratic Republic aka Terijoki Government, a puppet set up by Stalin, and they claimed in the League of Nations that they were not in war with Finland (sound familiar?) they were just providing support for the totally legitimate Finnish Democratic Republic. The more things change...

[@dukefanshawe6815]

The more they stay the same. 🙂

[@ME262MKI]

In simple words: "Same shit different name"

[@marseldagistani1989]

@@ME262MKI it's better same shit different rectum

[@darkpaladinus]

Honestly. fuck Russia. The pattern is sooo god damn scary. Finland, Baltics, Polaks, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians etc etc etc - and this is "just" 100 last years. And this is regardless if Russia is kommie, capitalist, kleptocratic whatever... There will not be peace in Europe until finally the state adopts some sort of pacifist constitution and gets a 1945 style real denazification-esque process...

[@AshleyPomeroy]

Has there ever been a democratic government with "democratic" in the name?

[@henkkahenrik4183]

As a Finn, i immediately noticed similarities with Russian propaganda in Ukraine and Finland wars. Like the second they went to the border for their "military training" i was already like "hol up, I've seen this one before. Wanna bet how many days till they invade". Like they were obviously preparing for an attack. Also the whole denying that the war is a war and actually happening the same tactics as in winter war. The whole Russia denying bombing Ukraine at the start of the war gave me some serious "molotov bread basket" vibes.

[@rickwong9049]

Lavrov's bread basket. Interestingly both wear similar glasses but Lavrov's one slightly have more width.

[@Destroyer_V0]

@@justforever96 Or get better at hidding your military build up, so no one sees it in the first place.

[@user-wd4xc6fd8j]

ты же в курсе, чем война закончилась? ты гитлеру до сих пор зигуешь?

[@jirga_jirga]

Russia used similar methods during Finnish War of 1808-1809. No declaration of war, their troops just crossed the border, which caught Sweden by surprise.

[@Felenx]

You have problems with your head. Russia did not bomb peaceful cities on the territory of Ukraine.

[@robertcuny934]

Ian's description of how Finnish troops decimated Russian convoys conjured up memories of an old "I Claudius" episode; specifically, Brian Blessed playing Augustus yelling: "Varus, Varus Give me back my legions!" upon hearing of the German victory at Teutoburg Forest.

[@joeelliott2157]

Yes. The stopping of a long Roman column along a road, immobilizing it, and destroying it segment by segment until after three days of fighting, it was destroyed. The only thing missing was having one or more senior Soviet generals commanding major elements of the invasion actually being Finnish officers who were really loyal to Finland, leading various Soviet columns into ambushes. But otherwise, very similar.

[@user-vk7fd2st8j]

@@joeelliott2157 this is bs. The main reason soviet advance crumbled were almost impassable forest roads with finnish commandos hiding in forests, similar to what americans were facing in Vietnam. But in opposite from americans soviets didn't flood those forests in napalm and deadly chemicals. The second reason were concrete defences hidden in the forest, which were almost as strong as french WW1 and WW2 lanes of defence.

[@Kraakesolv]

Unrelated but interesting fact about balaclavas: During the Winter War there was support from Norway not only with manpower but also from women who knitted balaclavas which were sent to Finland. These hats weren't particularly well known in Norway prior to the war and they became known as "Finlandshette" or Finlandhoods. We still use that word even though the Finnish ambassador a few years ago asked us to use "balaclava" instead since these days they are mostly known for being used in robberies, protests and other things with negative connotations.

[@aa-jq9qe]

Coming from a finn, that's an awesome name. Keep rocking it. We're already known as the local drunks everywhere in Scandinavia and no one honestly gives a shit.

[@Kraakesolv]

@@aa-jq9qe I agree, we will, and I agree again. You are a badass country with badass people. Also, the name keeps the spirit of brotherhood between our countries up and who knows, maybe some Norwegian kids will learn some history from it. It's 100% positive in my book. Your ambassador didn't agree but we didn't listen anyway. We assumed it was the alcohol talking.

[@lyrigageforge3259]

In Finland there was an organisation called Lotta Svärd, by the organizer. Women who went to work at field kitchens back of front lines, who took care of injured and always arranged the dead to be sent home, who held eye on skies to give alarm on air raids, who worked at communication centers (like my granny) and others at home front to knit socks and gloves and make all short of other things for the soldiers to be sent to them. Even small girls doing this or writing the soldiers nice little letters to keep up their spirits. Frankly they must have been so well organized a power behind our soldiers that - in the end of WWII - Soviet Union literally demanded to disband this organisation from the country. Well they may have done that, but even now our kids learn to knit at school. Bot the boys and girls, frankly we all learn basics for making or repairing clothes - even if that isn't always so popular short of lessons - at the same time as kids will also have work shop classes learning to use basic tools. But that said, now it really is now the state itself who is running a massive preparations operation - has been doing so for 80 or so years. First obviously in sense of military. And some of that stuff had to be done secretly given all the Soviet influence in the country during Cold War. But especially when USSR fell - they have been preparing at all times. And secondly preparing the state and society itself. Already long time all of our buildings large enough must have bomb shelters. There are also larger bomb shelters with nuclear blast doors. In most cities there is a lot made to protect the people. But especially under Helsinki you have entire maze of caves and tunnels and all short of things. It is pretty much a city under the city at this point. And somewhere, who knows where - the military command centers are also under the base rock of granite - several meters worth down. And we have reserves of supplies food, grains, fuels, medicines, medical equipment and army stuff. Even hidden storage somewhere deep. We know those exist, because people caring for them exist - but that is all - lol. Never mind the army having for example largest arty forces in western Europe. Well, just saying that this country is a prepper -state if you ever wanted to find one. So people them selves are not necessarily, privately having to invest a lot for it - even if some do. My family still has farming land and fishing waters, which tend to ease the food costs - and home built to stand even outside of grid. All though that never was done for 'prepping' - it just cuts down living costs when you water, heating and energy comes at least partly from your own resources. I do think dad's experience as a child and the old stories from that time how ever have affected him a bit too - in keeping the old farm going and so on, even if it isn't large enough to produce commercially. Well I have wondered a bit off topic by now. But as said it is mainly the government preparing the society, from factories, to news papers and politicians - all key decision makers by arranging them education about crisis situations. At least key people are being consistently updated about how things would need to work and the population can swiftly be informed about more. All though most anyone can think of at least one bomb shelter somewhere near - in an apparent building it would likely be under your feet anyhow. Laws have been geared to work even under special situations - and so have people in position to solve problems. So in a way, part of the taxes we Finns pay goes for our security as well - not just the regular stuff like health care, free education or say - well keeping roads open at all times never mind the weather be that winter and how bad a situation. Even energy production is built up in a manner so that different sources can be changed flexibly based on what can be acquired - all though we should have trusted Russia with a bit less about that. Then again, for example only 5% of our energy use comes from gas, but nearly none of that has been used for heating or cooking. More so for industry. That said - I suspect that we will need to adjust matters a bit - for example where it comes to production and preserves of fertilizers. And that is how it works - they use all examples of crisis in the world to adjust how to do it all better. After all - it is not just preparing for war - but trying to make the society very resilient against also how to manage pandemic situation - or indeed, now also information war. Currently our kids have been taught for some time about how to read media and information fields intelligently in school. And I seen that our news papers have been preparing even the adults for anything related to information war. Explaining about general methods of influencing - like misleading and such to also exposing various different campaigns to try to affect the say conversation at online forums and so forth. Stressing the importance of not reacting with emotion but looking for confirmations and better information from trusted sources and so forth.

[@tm5123]

@@Gospodin_Kurac Named because of a battle there, but the item is british.

[@Cgopat]

During the Crimean War the British set up a base in the port town of Balaclava. It was freezing during the winter, and similarly to the Finns, the British women knitted hoods and sent them for the soldiers to wear. Later they would be called Balaclava Helmets.

[@zergbonbon4770]

Excellent history lesson. Sometimes, between all the cool equipment, one forgets that Forgotten Weapons is essentially a history channel. Well done!

[@caprise-music6722]

*That* is the premier reason why Forgotten Weapons is my favorite gun channel. The history behind everything. The big picture if you will. Including the fact that Ian is an incredibly talented writer/presenter/speaker/etc/etc All that knowledge^^ #subbedforlife

[@Bbonno]

I'm mostly here for the history. The engineering is cool, but most of the good 'why' questions are answered with a solid history lesson around here.

[@ninjartist36]

Forgotten History

[@panther7584]

wen i wer yu aeg, heestory jannel wer juts heestory

[@theenjoyer1445]

this is why I love FW... Ian makes the best videos!

[@Mattiniord]

My grandmother was an air observer in north Finland during the winter war. You seem to have missed the swedish contributions were Sweden more or less emptied its mobilization storages and sent weapons to Finland. One example are over a 100 bofors m/38 antitank guns with all the ammunition we could spare and that made a difference. We sent ammunition, rifles AA-guns etc. However, the most strategically important contribution was the swedish volunteer Air Wing, F19. It consisted of 12 Gloster Gladiator fighters (J8 in swedish terminology), so roughly a squadrons worth, and 4 light Hawker Hart bombers (designated B4 in Sweden). It may not look like much but Sweden had only one Fighter Wing with three fighter squadrons total with maybe 45-50 Gladiators in its inventory. There were some obsolete Bristol Bulldogs but they hardly count. So depending on how you count Sweden sent over a fourth or a third of our entire complement of fighter aircrafts! And with them came all the commanders, pilots, ground crew etc needed. It was organized by the Swedish Air Force and was really a temporary Swedish Air force expeditionary unit in all but name. This unit got the task of defending the whole of north Finland that up until then lacked any air defence at all, save the Air observers my grandmother joined and some handful AA-guns. F19 should defend against Soviet bomber formations and give air support to the finnish ground troops. The first attack was made at russian units and supplies gathered at Märkäjärvi and was a success, but it was paid for in blood, losing two of the Harts. It was soon realized that it was more or less suicide to use the Hawker Harts during daylight, so instead they switched over to night time harassment attacks in the same style as the Soviet Night witches. That way they avoided Soviet fighter aircrafts. The Gladiators had a hard time catching the modern soviet bombers, but they learned a few tricks and also learned that contrary to all sound strategic and tactical ideas, it was more efficient to scatter the Gladiators on several bases. This meant that more ground could be covered, and even if it meant you could only intercept a russian formation with one, or sometimes two Gladiators, it was the succesful intercept that really mattered. They did shot down some bombers but the big value was in that they forced the russians to jettison their bombloads, which they did on sighting a single gladiator and thereby achieved and automatic mission kill. The bombs blew up random finnish trees instead of falling on finnish towns and troops.

[@tapiolehto5312]

Thank you for new knowledge of Swedish help during winter war. We are lucky to have you besides us. I read from a Finnish book about Tali Ihantala battle, summer 1944 that Swedish goverment gave cash credit to Finland as much as they could and there were Swedish troops in the battle.

[@ledorf]

Yea, i'd say Sweden went all in on support for being a small nation during a world war. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_intervention_in_the_Winter_War

[@mikkolaitinen7004]

Fun fact. My wife's granddad was sent to winter war at the later stage when every singe day almost 1000 Finns died ,and fortunately the war ended before he arrived. He survived, only to be lost during the early stages in the continuation war a year later. My wife's father was born in between, and therefore my wife exists...

[@kaksoispisteviivadee]

Well yes but... There has been one day (6.3.1944) during winter war when 848 finns died. During the last month of winter war the Finnish death toll was between 300ish and 700ish per day. Around 26000 Finns died during the winter war, which means on average 249 per day. And more than 126000 russians died, which means that around 1200 died on average every day. Finns defended well. Perkele.

[@mrjimsshop]

One sad relation between the events that I haven't seen mentioned is that most of the Soviet solders killed in the Raattentie/Suomussalmi part of the events were actually Ukrainians. There are memorials along the roads there that Ukrainian relatives visit by the busload every summer.

[@MosoKaiser]

Also, Russia has done another exact same thing in the current war as the USSR did in 1939-40: Bring over troops from far away from the actual warzone. Where Ukrainian troops were brought over to fight in the Winter War, there's been lots of Siberian and Far Eastern troops deployed in the current war in Ukraine. Granted, different reasonings in those cases, but same pattern nonetheless.

[@Spider_aaaahhh]

@@MosoKaiser Also, some random Russian internet asshole also accidentally mentioned that the Soviet soldiers who died in the Soviet afghan war were Ukrainian. No wonder why Ukraine mistrusts Russia cause they were always their cannon fodder.

[@ng.tr.s.p.1254]

@@MosoKaiser the Russians embraced the "Some of you might die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" meme a bit too much.

[@Cacowninja]

I'm getting sick of fucking Russia. I tried joining a movrment to hack them but couldn't get the software to work. What a bs country.

[@workingguy6666]

@@MosoKaiser Russia - Russia never changes.

[@jonmittlsteadt4297]

“History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes” - Mark Twain.

[@dbmail545]

"Those who forget history will be held back a year"

[@sajbuckby]

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx

[@user-uh9no1nm4x]

Дмитрий Щербаков 0 секунд назад there were two periods in that war - early winter when USSR lost and succesful soviet late winter. The war was begun by divisions from Kievs military district of USSR. Divisions from Leningrads MD ended it succesfully. it's divisions from soviet Ukraine are frozen on photos to compare...

[@TheZINGularity]

"Or is it as they say, bull excrement" - Mark Felton

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

I shit my pants.~Adolf Hitler.

[@getreal2977]

Thanks, Ian. Your history videos are even better then your regular content to single hardware pieces.

[@tanyacharbury4728]

I love your calm, detailed analysis. Thank you!

[@Fierysigil]

As a Finnish reservist, and as a weapon/military history interested person, I can say, that this video was awesome. Lots of points came to my mind, which I'd like to open of couple. Without saying too much, our strategies still lie on hit&run tactics. Nothing has changed from that. Everyone of our personelles knows their job. And we have our common enemy. Those who are claiming anything else have never served, or are too inlogickal with their believes. Why would russians even want to come here? There are historitical reasons, for their leaders. We are not that far from each others, just as plain, human beings. Should they perhaps learn something about history? My brothers and sisters, we are ready to, even to the bitter end. There is nothing to win, only graves and sorrow for all.

[@JonMartinYXD]

You should seriously consider converting your rail network to standard gauge (1435 mm).

[@thatcanuck5670]

@@JonMartinYXD yes I'm sure this individual Finnish reservist will get right on that

[@Njazmo]

As a Finn, I can tell a story too, there are 200000 Russians at our borders, 6 feet under though. If they want to bury more, come here, we'll show the place.

[@johanmetreus1268]

"Why would russians even want to come here? " Why does the snow fall? What matters is having the shovel when it does.

[@JonMartinYXD]

@@thatcanuck5670 Do you really think I was suggesting that a single Finn go and replace 9216 km of track and all their rolling stock? In the context of what I was replying to, where Fierysigal talked about Finns collectively, it should be more than clear that I used 'you' in the plural sense to refer to the same. That said, there are things Fierysigil can do as an individual, namely advocating: writing a letter to their government representatives, writing letters to news outlets, and bringing up the idea on social media, just like this.

[@sevenproxies4255]

One stark difference would be the forests though. Finland is mostly covered in forests. Ukraine is very wide and open. The Ukrainians don't have the same kind of cover out in the wilds, forcing them to set up defensive positions inside towns and cities. Which naturally leads to a lot of collateral damage, because the Russians don't take any chances. If they suspect any building is harbouring Ukrainian resistance, they bombard it. During the Winter War, the Finns could just melt away in the forests, leaving very few targets for Russian heavy weapons to fire at.

[@georgekaradov1274]

Around Kiev it is forest. The Russians did not advance much because outside the roads it is mostly forest and marshes. Not so in the south where the Ukeains did not do well. In the south it is open country not well suited for convoy ambushes

[@AshleyPomeroy]

This is one of the reasons you'd think Russia would win easily - they have lots of tanks and aircraft, which are great in open terrain. But they decided to attack during the muddy season, and their air force has been surprisingly ineffective.

[@sevenproxies4255]

@@georgekaradov1274 Yeah, since there are forests around Kiev, defending becomes so much easier, especially against tanks. Tanks really like an open field. Infantry does not.

[@lorenzomautino3708]

@@AshleyPomeroy well also they lost most of their sistems of gps because they relied on international systems, their pilots don't recieve enough training, they failed horrible at destroying the AA guns the Ukranians keep holding and have ready, they don't have enough AA for their advancing troops, there is a chance they don't have enough fuel or that they are not ready to loose pilots and planes because of course they didn't pay enough to the pilots. And of course the ukranians destroyed the moskva flagship with missiles.

[@griimae8022]

One stark difference would be satellite and UAV reconnaissance, pinpoint artillery strike capacity inherent in each Russian battalion tactical group, half of what-used-to-be-Ukrainian-army fighting on the Russian side on the territory those ex-Ukrainian-army members consider their home, and the local non-combatants (despite what the gun Jesus is claiming) are pro-Russian (judging by the fact that they overwhelmingly evacuate through the humanitarian corridors into the eastward direction )… well that’s more than one, but hey… Ukrainians are not good at counting their losses or Russian’s either! 😂

[@Zogerpogger]

Thanks Ian, your explanation of the similarities and differences between these two conflicts was very well-put. Overall a very interesting comparison.

[@harri9885]

Thank you Ian for another well made video. My late grandfather fought at Salla in northern Finland.

[@tobiasryberg8161]

Good and interesting summary! This is the aid Sweden sent to Finland during the war: 25 airplanes 800 sea mines and depth charges 144 artillery guns 100 anti-aircraft guns (Finland had 4...) 92 anti-tank guns 600 tank mines 34 grenade launchers 347 machine guns 450 automatic rifles 135 402 common rifles 301 849 grenades 51+ milion cartridges Pretty much all we had in store. The country was not prepared for a war but arming Finland was considered our best defence.

[@rikulappi9664]

Swedish corps were considered so trustworthy that they were charged with defending the Northermost 400 km of border! Finnish units staying in Lapland were subordinated to the Swedes, but the majority, 5 battalions, could be relocated to fight in the Mannerheim line.

[@sharknado623]

And people even wonder why Ukraine is always asking for weapons. Send them this comment!

[@johanmetreus1268]

Not quite true, the aircraft was merely 1/3rd of the airforce, and we kept about half the cannons for ourselves.

[@jh936]

Swedish also took a lot of finnish people in as war refugees …i still have some relatives living in sweden to this day because of that. Great neighbours!👌🏼

[@topiheimola69]

I hope this time you will once again take in our refugees and maybe this time join the war with the full power of your army?

[@target844]

There is one other huge difference that was not mentioned. The winter war starts three months after Germany invaded Poland. So France and UK are at war with Germany, it is during the Phoney War but still, they are preparing for it. The state of war also makes it impossible to ship supplies to Finland through the Baltic sea. There is a single port in northern Finland that can be reached with limited capacity to transport material to the rest of the county. Germany is allied with the Soviets and, for example, intercepts supplies that Italy sends to Finland. Today the west is not at war with anyone and transportation to Ukraine. If you look at the relative population Finland was 3.5 million vs 170 million in the Soviet Union. that is 1:48. Ukraine is 44 million vs 144 million in Russia, that is 1:3.2.

[@realshompa]

The Allies did not even try to send supplies. They just started WW2 since UK/France where mad occupying over 100 countries in the world. The Allies where the badguys....

[@TriZaba]

Good points up top, but aren’t you using statistics for total population versus military/troop statistics?

[@VictorLarsen-fy9ls]

Britain supported the White Finns in the Finnish Civil War and turned a blind eye to the destruction of the Red Finns, just as the British countries turned a blind eye to the concentration camps with political prisoners and Jews in Germany in 1936, when they helped to hold the Summer and Winter Olympic Games there and increased the prestige of the Nazi Germany. Also, Britain helped to divide Czechoslovakia between Poland and Germany in 1938, and Czechoslovakia's gold was transferred to Germany through the Bank of England, this is a fact. Just like Britain supported the belligerents in the Russian Civil War of 1917 with weapons for stolen gold. Also, British agents at that time killed Rasputin and stole the royal jewelry, the British Queen Kliptomaniac still has a stolen Russian tiara. Then, in that Finnish winter war, Britain supported the Finns, including mercenaries and aircraft.

[@target844]

@@TriZaba It is total population but it is an important factor especially if the war draws out to a long war. Train people and the amount of equipment are also important, especially in the short time scale, but if you look at a longer time scale you can train people and import/produce equipment. Finland had around 10% of the population in the armed forces and had casualties 2% of the population in the winter war. If I understood the video correctly Finland started to run out of available soldiers to defend the country. The Red Army was around 1.8 million when WWII started, that is over half the population of Finland, during WWII the total amount of people that served in it was around 10x Finland's population. If Ukraine starts to run out of people then Russia is in big trouble too. So Ukraine can hold out longer than Finland could in that regard.

[@gamervibes6454]

@@target844 Well not so much total population nowadays but rather total male population within the relevant age brackets. In a time of aging populations due to low birth rates discrepancies in fertility rates between countries and their total capable population within the relevant age brackets have to be taken into consideration. Grandpas above the age of 60 can't really do much fighting, even people above 40 are not as effective as those that are 20.

[@janosmarta8258]

This was a really serious historical lecture, thank you for it Ian.:)

[@nerdfatha]

Fascinating comparison. I was thinking the same thing , but I had no idea the similarities went so deep. thank you for the history lesson!

[@RichardTheRoe]

It's a good reality check because as you note the popular understanding of the conflict seems to be "Invincible Finns kicked Russian ass and won" when really they took massive losses and did end up signing away land. Now of course the Finns did win from the perspective that they got to keep most of their nation. But it's not quite the way people seem to perceive the outcome of the war today.

[@mhh7544]

....and that in the end drove us to fight with Germans.

[@taekatanahu635]

Outside of Finland mostly, I would say. 25,000 dead and 40,000 wounded are huge losses after three months of fighting - that is more than Russia has lost in Ukraine. The Soviet Union might have lost many times more men, but when adjusted per capita its like nothing for them. But with a population of 44 million people Ukraine actually has the chance to win the war. Not just preserve its independence, but actually defeat Russia militarily and recapture the areas lost after 24. February.

[@baneofbanes]

Thing is Ukraine has multiple advantages over the Russians that the Fins didn’t have over the Soviets. But yes most people have an incorrect knowledge if the winter war.

[@wraithwyvern528]

When your country is being invaded, every day is a win when you exist at the end of it.

[@anonymousbloke1]

>they took massive losses and did end up signing away land Big losses? Yeah. Massive? Idk man... 265k finnish troops vs 425-760k soviet troops 29 thousand killed vs ~200000 dead from wounds, disease, cold etc (read the russian wiki article, it's honestly not clear how they list their dead, but the casualties are MASSIVE)

[@MKnife]

As a finnish person and son of a war veteran of the continuation war (dad was too young to join in the winter war), I very, very much appreciate this history lesson and comparison, even if the reason for it existing in the first place is tragic. When I did my 11 months in the finnish army back in 1987-88, we still practised with WW2 era weapons; Pystykorvas, Suomi KP's, some russian Degtyaryevs ("Emma") etc. The effects and sentiments of the wars against our eastern neighbour lingered on for a long time after 1939-45. And those old sentiments are re-emerging due to current and rather obvious reasons once again.

[@deez8202]

this might be irrelevant but my grandmas dad served as a swedish volunteer in the winter war and he was a animal vet taking care of injured horses n shit anyway when he was going by train to the front (idk when really if he was heading back regardless) a I15 or I16 ambushed the train and filled the carriages with bullets and he wasnt hit which was lucky for him tho his friend got his middle finger blown by the bullet lol.

[@jf7243]

A very solid analysis and comparison. I was aware of the simple and obvious ones, but now feel much better briefed! Thankyou.

[@user-eq2fp6jw4g]

Always a pleasure. Thanks for good a review. Kiitoksia hyvästä analyysistä.

[@Casyfill]

I think a generally accepted explanation now is that initially Stalin did just want to grab the country, all this distance stuff came up after they failed with grabbing - which is very similar to current situation. Either way the explanation “they might let Germans in” sounds weird given that this is what they did explicitly as a a result. Kinda like NATO is now definitely closer to Russian borders and reinvigorating itself

[@lamedarkangel]

Ian`s content didn`t go around prewar situation (I mean finnish war), so you should just read about the prewar conversation between Finland and USSR.

[@rider6500]

I think it's the exact opposite. Today, Russia initially just wanted to force Kiev to recognize Crimea and the LDPR territories and get a guarantee for non-NATO membership. With Kiev not budging an inch in negotiations, the Russians now basically just try to encircle and annihilate the Ukrainian army in the East and likely grab much of the East and all of the Black Sea coast.

[@PeterMuskrat6968]

@@rider6500 not really, Russia’s initial goal was to take Kyiv, which would mean Ukraine would be turned into a puppet state, it shifted to only taking part of the country. This wasn’t about recognizing separatist regions, that was just a Pre-text or a Casus Belli for the invasion.

[@rider6500]

@@PeterMuskrat6968 They were going to take Kiev with 30,000 troops - yeah sure. Those were just there to pin down part of the Ukie army and stop them from deploying to the East. Since you can't look into the heads of the decisionmakers, you have to derive their goals from their actions, and there was no Russian action that hinted at 'taking Kiev'. The Russians were never going to 'take' any cities apart from those in the East (and probably Odessa, though we can't know until it happens). The trigger for the Russian military action was a) the official declaration by Kiev that MinskII was never going to happen, and b) the start of Kiev's offensive against the LDPR republics, and probably c) the declaration of Zelensky to develop nuclear weapons.

[@L4v3]

@@lamedarkangel Yes. Finland and Russia did negotiate about moving the border further away from Leningrad, but Russia wanted the border so far away that Finland would have had to abandon all defensive fortifications near the border. What do you think would have happened after Finland abandoned all fortifications and didn't have everything ready to defend itself?

[@DiggingForFacts]

Had a similar reaction and couldn't help but think of Khrushchev's quote about the Finns proving the Soviet Union a "Colossus with feet of clay".

[@olgerdtmagpier5527]

In fact these're Hitlers words about USSR

[@unclejoeoakland]

I don't recall Kruschev saying anything like that. He did later comment that the USSR "won just enough territory to bury their dead."

[@jayklink851]

Do you remember the massive bizarre air drops, that made no sense, in the beginning days of the war? Well, the FSB said they had thousands of resistance fighters that needed arms. However, they didn't exist, the FSB had been stealing billions of dollars to pay (paper) assets. Russia's invasion plan, especially in the North, was based on collaborating with non-existent rebels/intel assets. Talk about a totally incompetent armed forces.

[@Itapirkanmaa2]

Wrongly cited, apparently from the Life mag in 1970, where it is: "It was a dangerous defeat because it encouraged our enemies' conviction that the Soviet Union was a colossus with feet of clay." It was not "proven" in the original, that's an intentional misreading.

[@Kosmos6171]

Where and when did he say that? Hitler called the USSR a colossus on clay feet, and he paid for it. Four years after the invasion Hitler shot himself at the sound of Soviet artillery.

[@TDKSpook]

Thankyou so much man for your insight. I could listen to you talk about anything ☺️

[@hellcome69]

Oh man, you could propably do many episodes about Winter War/Continuation War with your knowledge and unbiased attitude. Thank you for this :)

[@Eric-ux2ji]

From Wikipedia: The Swedish government and public also sent food, clothing, medicine, weapons and ammunition to aid the Finns during this conflict. The military aid included:[4] 135,402 rifles, 347 machine guns, 450 light machine guns with 50,013,300 rounds of small arms ammunition; 144 field guns, 100 anti-aircraft guns and 92 anti-armour guns with 301,846 shells; 300 sea mines and 500 depth charges; 17 fighter aircraft, 5 light bombers, 1 DC-2 transport aircraft turned into bomber, and 3 reconnaissance aircraft, totally comprising 1/3 of the Swedish air force at the time.

[@Shpongful]

Imagine. 50million+ rounds plus ones already fired. And we still ran out of ammunition.

[@J7Handle]

@@Shpongful well, when you have 100,000+ soldiers, it’s not that crazy. 500 rounds per soldier is a lot for a rifleman, but then there are machine guns.

[@chpet1655]

I wonder how history and WW2 would have looked had Churchill got his way and Great Britain declared War on USSR on behalf of a Finland. Had this gone ahead I don’t think the UK and USSR are allies in 1941-45. That would have changed Russia’s outcome agains5 Germany

[@charlesdoesstuff7379]

@@J7Handle 500 rounds for a soldier in low intensity would last a few days. In high intensity rear echelon, a day or two and high intensity Frontline may only last a few hours on average. The higher the training, the less ammunition is used, but the average is still ~300 rounds per hour.

[@J7Handle]

@@charlesdoesstuff7379 That depends on a lot of factors. I'm sure the average today is ~300 rounds per hour, but modern wars have automatic rifles and employ tons of suppressing fire. In Finland during the Winter War, most of the soldier would have been armed with bolt action rifles. Suppressing fire with bolt action rifles isn't really as much of a thing. Certainly, ~300 rounds per hour per soldier would not have been happening for any Finnish soldier unless they were a machine gunner, and those were in far fewer numbers than riflemen.

[@BoloH.]

My homestead is a couple of miles from the Winter War frontline when it ended. Found Lahti-Saloranta mags while planting apple trees. Also bayonets and parts of a Luger.

[@bennythargrave]

Remarkable!

[@VilleValpuri]

If you go to some of the battle fronts (forest) with a metal detector, it will be beeping constantly. I also found granade shrapnell and shell casings often as a kid, when we were picking berries in Kainuu region.

[@bigballsdance2426]

I feel bad for you, that a shitty place to live at.

[@BeKindToBirds]

How are the apple trees doing?

[@jmjedi923]

@@BeKindToBirds they're growing war memorabilia

[@seanprice7645]

Finnish air force as a whole may not have been effective at that time, but we still had Ilmari Juutilainen. If you factor in that he never lost an aircraft, never lost a wingman, never lost a single bomber he was escorting. He's possibly the best ever. The guy was practically untouchable, at the same time flying some of the worst aircraft the world had to offer until he finally was given a bf-109g to match his skill level.

[@thomwinters7314]

The man is a legend. Shot down almost 30 Russian planes with a Brewster for god sake and was given the highest military honour, the Mannerheim Cross, twice. And as you said, never lost a plane or his wingman. In a rare interview the man had calculated he shot down 128 planes, but there wasn't evidence or witnesses for all of them. They tried to make him an officer many times, but that would've meant more paperwork and less flying, so he declined. He was never hit by a single round from an enemy aircraft. Not once. He was hit by flak shrapnel once, but saved his plane.

[@josephahner3031]

You know, the Buffalo is probably one of the most underrated fighter planes in WW2. The Finnish Air force claimed over 450 Soviet Aircraft shot down with them. For what it was it did pretty good.

[@josephahner3031]

You know, the Buffalo is probably one of the most underrated fighter planes in WW2. The Finnish Air force claimed over 450 Soviet Aircraft shot down with them. For what it was it did pretty good.

[@bigballsdance2426]

No one knows that guy and no one cares.

[@cally77777]

@@bigballsdance2426 Well I knew about him, and now, so do you. You need heroes in those circumstances.

[@jounisuninen]

Thank You, Ian 🙂 It is a matter of never-ending dispute whether Finland won or lost the Winter War. There is this saying "you win some, you lose some". Finland had to surrender some territory, i.e. Finland lost. Russia (USSR) had to surrender its goal of putting the O.W. Kuusinen's communist puppet government in Helsinki i.e. Russia lost. One Soviet general is quoted saying "We have won just enough territory to bury our dead". In November 1940 Soviet PM Molotov was sent to Berlin to ask Hitler's consent for USSR to finish in Finland the job it had aborted in March. Hitler refused because he had started to see the pissed-off Finns as an asset in his plan to attack USSR .

[@seanburke424]

More than that, the Soviet Army's inept performance in Finland, convinced Hitler that the Wehrmacht would easily defeat them.

[@romanpyatibratov4361]

Several points to dispute your argument. Back in 1917 when Finland declared independency - a civil war began. As expected - not every single Finnish was happy with changes. It was a war between capitalism and socialism. Workers, farmers, fishermans and land owners, upper-class and other persona's with powers (like their leader, who is military). At the end whites, supported by Germans, won. And so called Suur-Suomi ideology was born. Great Finland. Nationalistic, radical, ideology. Guess what they did? Invaded Soviets with intentions to take Karelia and other territories. (So when Soviets invade - it's bad and we should remember it. But when Soviets being invaded - lets forget about it, yeah?) As a result - Finland came into Germany's sphere of influence. And when Germany began it's military actions in Europe - well, Soviets didnt liked the fact, that their important cities are so close to the borders of another country. I'm not sure what you mean under Molotov pact. As Germany did agreed to give Finland under Soviets sphere in influence. Basically allowing Staling to invade Finland. Maybe you mean second invasion? Altho Finland already lost and gave up territories. Pushing borders away from Leningrad and Peterburg. TLDR: Soviets did not invade Finland out of imperialistic desires for it's territory. Or out of nationalistic ideology. It was a problem of safety. And if Soviets wouldnt done this - Germany would. Finland not allying with Germany wouldnt stop Hitler from taking Finland and using it to attack Soviets

[@MrDrow-bi9js]

the USSR invaded Finland in order to move the border away from Leningrad, before that they were offered islands in the sea, but they did not agree, so they had to decide by military means, by the way, the tasks were fully completed

[@user-wd4xc6fd8j]

@@seanburke424 и как, победил?

[@jlo7770]

I don't watch every gun review.. but when gun Jesus is offering up a history lesson? I watch it all. All of the other content you post I usually find interesting as I'm not interested in every gun ever made, but I'm typically interested in the reason why they're made and most of that is because of war! Keep up the good work buddy

[@fabreezethefaintinggoat5484]

yeah except the Ukranians are the larger army,not the Russian

[@altergreenhorn]

Unfortaly Ian is quite off firstly a lot of russian vehicles seen as destroyed are basically ukraine ones not russians. Propaganda is way better on the ukraina/west side then on the russia side not to forget west banned all russian media outlets so everything is very one sided. Back to the similarity there is only one similarity namely the fear of Stalin that 3rd reich would use Finland, which was at the end correct assumption and the fear of Russia against neverending expanding of NATO. Other than that there is no similarity although Nato and 3rd reich in the same narrative maybe a time for concern. Namely Finnland didn't shell and killed Russian natives for 8 years which resulted in 15.000 dead native russians since 2014, Finland did not banned russian language which was official in ukraine since forever, Finland politicians at least I have no knowledge didn't called russians subhuman , etc

[@ramonandrajo6348]

@@fabreezethefaintinggoat5484 Nice try, sheep. XD

[@lyrigageforge3259]

@@fabreezethefaintinggoat5484 Well soviet era armies were huge indeed. Current Russian army is by far not the same. But that said - Stalin hand also cleansed his own military commanders - I mean killed the most influential and experienced ones in fear of coup before. So they had very poor command when first set to Finland to make really not tactically as viable a plan as they imagined. It was a plan for 12 days. And it took 105 days. According to my estimation measure from modern map - Russians got about 100km (62+miles) ahead on their main attack line on Karelian Isthmus. Yes we were literally running out of amo, shells and good equipment in general too, never mind food. It was a big task to not let the Russians know that - so that the agreement could be gotten based on how much the war was truly costing the Russians. It is a bit hard to fight a force with more men than you got bullets for.

[@siniaura]

gun jesus...lol very funny.

[@jakubkulikowski6875]

Interestingly, this notion 'we will be welcomed as liberators' seems to be a pattern. They thought just the same during Polish - Bolshevik war 1919 - 1920.

[@pseudonym50]

Maybe it is just the consequence of justifying a war. "Surely they will welcome us as liberators" turns into "Well now we have to liberate them by force"

[@KillbillyA]

I happen to be czech, russian orc invaded us in 1968 and they were really thinking they are "liberating us". Fast forward to 2022, they still have agents all over our territorry, interfere with media, elections, politics, because they STILL think our territory is theirs and they should "liberate" us from capitalist EU pigs. Thats how russians think, they always did, always will.

[@wraithwyvern528]

@@jdg9999 the Kurds did

[@mallardofmodernia8092]

@@jdg9999 russia and the british also expected to be welcomed by afghans. Guess superpowers never learn.

[@VictorLarsen-fy9ls]

Unlike the Poles, the Bolsheviks did not consider Western Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians to be second-class people. Under Poland, there was not a single Ukrainian school, not a single Ukrainian poet was published under Polish rule in these lands. At the same time, under Lenin, the Bolsheviks supported the ethnic identity of all peoples, Ukrainization was carried out in the territories of Ukraine, there were Ukrainian schools, many books of Ukrainian poets were published, such as Taras Shevchenko

[@ninjak85]

This was actually pretty interesting. Really dope video. Had me locked the whole way through. Hope you stumble onto more coincidences in the future.

[@s0ulshot]

My dad told me that during the wars the Finnish brass was perplexed by the tactics used by the Soviets and Nazis who just marched people after people to die in the battlefield. Seems like old habits die hard as we see in Ukraine today.

[@mannywildegibbons1177]

Central planning & ends justify the means. Astonishing how much evil has come from these two simple ideas. Russians today are much more apprehensive about casualties, but rigid central planning lives on.

[@SimoN-vf8ps]

Its how offensive operations go you fucking moron, this has been true for all of human history. You expect more loses than the defender. These pro-Ukraine government supporters getting dumber by the day.

[@yasenkrasen1581]

We see that Russia captured 5,000 Ukrainian POW, and Ukraine only 500 russian POW. And what do the media in your country tell you?

[@yasenkrasen1581]

@@dylanduff9645 Britain lost under the Falklands 8 ships. What are your conclusions?

[@EngelinZivilBO]

The Germans didn't not follow the same waste strategy like the Russians did.. Get your facts right

[@mpersad]

Terrific piece of comparative historical analysis - thank you!

[@volodymyrkuksynok6111]

Thank you for covering this topic!

[@rickrooks5060]

Might be the best video you’ve ever done…. And that’s saying a lot, because most of your videos are fantastic. I want more…. You keep making ‘em, I’ll keep watching.

[@rosswitte]

Incredibly well presented! Thank you.

[@kakwa]

There are also a few other parallels, for example the Kirov being damaged by a coastal battery, and the recent sinking of Moskva. Another parallel, maybe a bit speculative and slightly pessimistic, is the fact the Russians seems to learn from their mistakes. During the Winter War, they realized their approach was wrong after a month. They changed leadership (Timoshenko in charge) and also they changed their plan of attack focusing on the isthmus and better prepared their offensive doing some training improving infantry and tank cooperation and having a better probing/recon/studying of the Finish defense system. Finally, they managed to break through the Mannerheim line even if the casualty figures were still really heavy. In Ukraine, it's a bit of the same, they acknowledged the Kiev offensive failure, pulled-back, change leadership, limit sending huge columns with unsecured flanks and chose to focus on the Donbas & South-East fronts. This would probably not be a night and day difference, but this will bring incremental improvements on the Russian military capabilities and only time will tell if the Ukrainians will be able to adapt and resist to these new situations. However, the parallels also have their limits. For example, in terms of force ratio, the situation is not exactly the same, Finland was really tiny compared to the USSR in terms of population, and went into the war pretty much fully mobilized with no reserves. Ukraine by contrast is roughly 1/3 of Russia in terms of population and is mobilizing fully as the existence of the nation is at risk, on the Russian side, full mobilization is not really practical politically (it's a "Special Operation", not a "War", even if the Russian medias seem to prepare the opinion progressively toward a change there). Right now, Ukraine has a better potential regarding putting troops on the ground than Russia (even if they will not exactly be well trained or equipped). Whatever happens in the future, imho, Putin lost the war the instant the first missile fell on Kyiv. Ukraine is now irreversibly an independent nation with a population now fully unified and sharing the same sense of belonging and identity. It will never again be part of a larger Russian state or any kind of Novorossiya integrated block.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

"Ukraine is now irreversibly an independent nation with a population now fully unified and sharing the same sense of belonging and identity." ...Except for the Russian-speaking Donbass region. I can't see Ukraine holding on to that land or liberating Crimea without first winning the nuclear slugfest or pulling a rabbit out of the regime change hat.

[@h.cedric8157]

@@PatrickKQ4HBD First question: If russia wanted the Ukrainian Oil and Gas fields, wouldnt it be that nuking Ukraine will negate the very resource Russia is presumed to want from Ukraine?(Russiya still has more Oil and Gas potential than Ukraine FYI) Second question: I will say that the 2014 take over of Crimea IMMEDIATELY after the ousting of Putin Puppet Yanukovich, by armed men began occupying key facilities and checkpoints on the Crimean peninsula. Clearly professional soldiers by the way they handled themselves and their weapons, they wore Russian combat fatigues but with no identifying insignia. I challenge you to prove these Russian uniformed men were Pro Russian Ukrainians.

[@h.cedric8157]

@@jamesrowlands8971 As a subscriber of China Unscripted, it was not a shock to me that the US "wedge issues" like gender equality, social justice and police brutality all stemmed from "interference actions" from the chinese and russians meant to split the people of the west apart.

[@maybebutwhatever]

@@PatrickKQ4HBD people in Donbass not happy about capturing every last man there. Even before the war, support there was far from absolute. People lived in something like peace last 6 years. Now war returns because of the Russia.

[@keimok1717]

For us Finns these similarities are quite obvious, and partly explain why there is this sudden interest in joining Nato. Some of the similarities carry over to the Continuation war, where Finns got "the best there currently was" from the Germans (Messerschmiths, Stugs, Panzerfausts...) and managed to get the ceded land back, only to loose it again at the end. Unfortunately there was not much to choose from for allies at the time.

[@con6lex]

It would be an honor to have the brave and resourceful Finns in NATO. Need to have a standard field sauna!

[@pekkasalminen9601]

@@jack99889988 There is 0 countries in NATO that Russia has attacked. But a lot of non-Nato countries that Russia has attacked. These are facts, joining NATO would be the best thing to do against Russian aggressions. There will be a short time of increased risk during the application process but now Russians have their troops mostly tied in Ukraine. The best thing to protect finns is to join NATO now.

[@keimok1717]

@@jack99889988 Well, 'jack', the thing Finland learned during the Winter War was, that you have to be allied with somebody. Between 1918-1939 Finland was a great believer for League of Nations. We saw also common interests with Poland and the Baltic states as well our Nordic neighbours. For different reasons all these pieces failed, and no actual defence agreement was never signed. The Soviet-Finnish Non-Aggression Pact was a non-aggression treaty signed in 1932 by representatives of Finland and the Soviet Union. The pact was unilaterally renounced by the Soviet Union in 1939 after having committed a deception operation in Mainila in which it shelled its own village and blamed Finland. After the Winter War the situation was different and there were far less options. Stalin was urging Hitler that he was willing to finish Finland off, but Hitler was already planning his own special military operation against Soviet Union. Finns were either attacked by Russia or they could join to get their ceded areas back. Were they allies with Germany. Yes, in the same sense as Soviet Union was an ally to nazi-Germany against Poland. Same enemy, different aims. We all know, that Finland had to make armistice with Soviet Union and then had to wage yet another war against German forces North of Finland, but again, managed to save independence, and was not occupied. Stalin was in a hurry to be in Berlin before the Western forces. Finland was deemed to be German ally and had to pay severe penalties as war reparations worth equivalent to US$5.78 billion (in 2021 money worth). Which it did by 1952. Finland was also not allowed to join the UN until 1954. Maybe Stalins death a year earlier had something to do with it. There was no way Finland could have joined NATO after the war. Instead we had to made Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance, which was an agreement between the Soviet Union and Finland which formed the basis for Finno-Soviet relations from 1948 to 1992. Under the pact, Finland was obliged to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" against Finland, or against the Soviet Union through Finland. If necessary, Finland was to ask for Soviet military aid to do so. However the pact in itself did not provide any provisions for the Soviet military to enter Finland and stipulated that all such actions would have to be agreed separately should Finland choose to request aid. Furthermore, the pact did not place any requirements for Finland to act should the Soviet Union be attacked (if the attack would not take place through Finland). The agreement also recognized Finland's desire to remain outside great-power conflicts, allowing the country to adopt a policy of neutrality in the Cold War. This agreement pretty much prevented Finland to join Nato as long Soviet Union existed. Now, when Russia is again waging war in Central Europe and breaking its agreements , it makes Finland worry and review its defence policy. Of course the situation is a lot different, as Finland is a EU member and already Nato partner. I hope people in Russia actually read the Nato membership document, which is not a big secret, and can be easily found from Natos web site. Nato is defensive alliance.

[@Eksistenssi]

@@jack99889988 well it is not that simple really. After ww2 finland was forced into this "cooperation" with soviets, YYA-agreement or whatever it is in english. In reality we weren't anywhere close to being neutral as you think as russia had a big say in politics and even on what could be published in press. That was achieved by granting positions of power to those that were loyal to communistic russia in 1918 civil war and even injecting some new, communistic-leaning blood into the political game. Also banning every organization that was openly or even leaning towards being anti-russian (like Lottas and many political parties). CCCP thought that it could eventually win Finland "back" by this political game. Eventually it didn't lead to something as drastic as that, but it is still huge cause of political strife in this country with big name politicians (ex-president, prime ministers and so on) having straight connections to dirty money and worse stuff from Putin and his friends. They were even granted lead positions in companies owned by these oligarchs after end of their political careers. Investigations about it always get stalled, if some prominent member of society mentions these things in interview then the media gets told to shush from somewhere higher above. Without these rats trying to defend their future positions, Finland would have joined NATO way sooner. And now we come to this current NATO discussion. Initially the idea of joining NATO has always been the last resort because of this naive thinking of "russia won't attack its previous allies" and those thoughts getting fortified after Estonia joined NATO without massive repercussion from its eastern neighbour. Well war in Ukraine opened our eyes. Their country was diplomatically in similar standing to ours when it comes to russia and is a good "that could be us" wake up moment for Finland. When you say: "fail to understand the human toll suffered from their elder generation and decide to provoke another war with Russia" you forget that we all can see that Putin can do unrational decisions whenever, wherever, leading to those human tolls whether we wanted it or not. We also see that russian army is in no state to start another deadly war anywhere soon, giving us good time to solidify our defense for the worst case scenario by joining the defense alliance.

[@keimok1717]

@@jack99889988 Do you have a some sort of manuscript in your trollhouse? I mean often when I made this remark 'Nato is defensive organisation' I get comment back about whataboutism with a list of countries. The truth is Nato did not do much in any of these cases, at least compared to the extent Russia or its allies have been doing in the same regions.And what Nato have done, it have been usually for humanitarian reasons. Do what I asked you to do and read about Nato. There is no such thing that a country cannot join if it is already in conflict. Russia cannot do anything like a surprise attack. All Russias resources are now in Ukraine. Your military bases are half empty near the Finnish border. All availabe battle tanks are there and you cannot produce more. You have very limited number of high precision missiles, and that's why you are losing your best airplanes in Ukraine (because they have to fly low to hit even something). Even Kamaz have told, that they cannot produce more trucks. If Russia choose to use nuclear, it could possible be end of Finland, but it definitely will be end of Russia. I trust that is not the end result you were hoping for?

[@erikstolzenberger1517]

Outstanding video, thank you Ian, greatly appreciated

[@jsinope2786]

Oh my goodness! I was thinking the same thing! So glad you noticed it and did a video!

[@Lapkonium]

One mistake Ian makes in the beginning of the video is Saying that the Russians outnumbered both the Finns and Ukranians. What the US intelligence said, was that Russia has ~ 200k troops involved in Ukraine. This is smaller than the Ukranian army, not to mention the national guard, paramilitaries and people mobilised during the war. Starting an invasion with a numerically inferior force is the most peculiar thing about this war in my mind.

[@TheFivetimesdead]

It's kinda complicated. A significant chunk of Ukrainian military was dedicated to Donbas region, also being the best equipped and motivated troops. Therefore, you can see that the original plan was to completely ignore them (using LNR and DNR troops to bind them) and go straight for "undefended" Kyiv, Kharkiv and South. It did work in the South, partially in the East, but was a total disaster up North.

[@weasle2904]

You fail to realize the disarray and the inability to deploy all these "troops" (many are likely 'ghost battalions'). Ukraine is definitely outnumbered. The Russians also expected the Ukrainians to somewhat welcome the Russians and help them, as foolish as this is.

[@SPAZTICCYTOPLASM]

The Ukrainian army is larger than the initial deployment but most of it wasn't actually mobilized or anywhere near the Russian border, according to the numbers only 40 thousand or so soldiers where actually deployed in 2021 in Ukraine. So yes the Ukes where outnumbered in terms of actual combat effectiveness in the fighting regions. Until mid march Ukraine was still talking about mobilizing soldiers, even if on paper they had about half a million available. We also don't know Russia numbers anymore there where talks of Russians deploying cadets but then there was fog in what that term means in Russian and so on.

[@Apolita1987]

TBF, the same would be true about the US invasion of Iraq. Sheer numbers don't matter as much when you have technological advantage, better trained troops and air superiority. The Russians apparently have none of those.

[@nagantm441]

@@TheFivetimesdead citation needed for the "plan"

[@HM-km4tg]

I'm hyped for your take on the NGSW program actually following through with adopting a rifle vs. the past failures of previous programs.

[@gavinm1347]

The sig is actually a beautiful piece of engineering. I want to know what this 6.8 cartridge will do out a 16”-18” barrel. I imagine the velocity will be spicy.

[@gregrobertson5576]

Is the .277 fury available to civilians?

[@509Gman]

@@gavinm1347 3000 FPS with a 135gr projectile

[@gavinm1347]

@@509Gman I think that’s out of the 13” Spear barrel.

[@AlexandruNicolin]

I'm surprised 550 MPa isn't burning barrels within 2000-3000 shots.

[@matswinberg5045]

Swedish military aid to Finland 1939-40: 86000 rifles, carbines, light automatic rifles and pistols, 350 light and heavy machine guns, 25 grenade launchers, 300 anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns (Bofors), 90 heavy artillery pieces and 20 howitzers (10,5 to 21 cm), Ammunition given was 45 million rounds to hand guns, 300000 artillery shells including 14000 wing grenades. Source is a classified report by the Swedish General Staff March 8th 1940. In addition to the Swedish Volunteer Corps and Air Force detachment F19 in Finnish Lapland Swedes also manned ant-aircraft batteries in Turku. Finland's independence and freedom is a vital Swedish interest, true both in the 1940s and upto the 2020s.

[@luciomoschella]

Excellent comparison! Thanks for sharing this piece of history.

[@jmirsp4z]

a point about finnish air force... the finnish air force while small and outdated performed with massive success against the soviets. the most scoring non-german aces are mostly finnish pilots. Finnish fighters shot down 240 confirmed Soviet aircraft, against the Finnish loss of 26.

[@Nutmanjango]

Is this true? Fascinating, if yes.

[@jmirsp4z]

@@Nutmanjango yes.. we did even better in the continuation war with better equipment

[@Nutmanjango]

Do you have a source for this information? Truly interested

[@jmirsp4z]

@@Nutmanjango you can check wikipedia for quick info and they should have some actual sources listed there..fro example "In Finnish use, the Brewster had a victory rate of 32:1 - 459 kills to 15 losses."

[@MRtapio5]

@@Nutmanjango yes. The best non german Ace is actually a Finn

[@ristoalanko9281]

Through the whole war era, the British army boots (sent in during the Winwr War as aid) were known in Finnish Army as "sympathy boots". That was almost all we got from the Brits.

[@allangibson2408]

Other than the 30 Gloster Gladiator fighters and Bristol Blenheim bombers that Britain shipped to Finland?

[@mikkoheirila702]

Later the brits gave us sympathy in the form of a declaration of war

[@theashbys8863]

Yes after you asked the nazis for help. More upset with Sweden not coming to help.

[@blob22201]

To be fair Britain was desperately trying to rearm itself at the time, they didn't have much spare military equipment to just give away.

[@Nutmanjango]

I think you have purposely neglected the context of the time to make some sort of point.

[@mikeharutunian3463]

Thank you for the extremely thoughtful commentary.

[@Benjamin15151515]

very good content. thank you for talking about this conflict

[@iansmith8944]

There is a similar comparison to be made with the skis. During the initial invasion, the Russian infantry was untrained in using proper encrypted radio communications and the result was a lot of intercepted information. Also the inability for air and ground forces to communicate effectively.

[@travisfinucane]

The current invasion seems worse to me than a matter of inadequate training. It's like deliberate self-sabotage. The Russian army sent tanks forward with no infantry support or fuel until they were either destroyed or abandoned.

[@GR46404]

@@travisfinucane That is EXACTLY the same mistake they were making in Finland in 1939. I am not sure they learned better before 1943. And now they seem to have forgotten again, which is just incredible.

[@christopherreed4723]

The issue with the Russian Army as far as training goes is that the vast majority of it's soldiers are conscripts doing a two-year period of service, and *that their NCOs are drawn from those same conscripts during basic training*. You can make an army composed mostly of conscripts work, even in modern warfare (more on that later) if you have experienced NCOs - Sergeants of various grades - to lead your squads and do other tasks. But a Russian Sergeant is doing the same two-year hitch as his squadmates, so he has neither the depth of experience nor the authority that a British, French, German, or US Sergeant has, who has a lot more time in than the soldiers in his squad. This shifts a huge workload onto the Lieutenants and Captains, who have to do not only all the work that Company grade officers usually do, but all their Sergeants' as well. Coupled with doctrinal attitude that emphasizes following doctrine above all else and actively discourages taking action on their own initiative, this severely limits a formation's ability to respond to threats that werent explicitly planned for. This approach was able to be used effectively in WW2, partly because the "skill floor" (gaming term) to effectively employ the infantry company's tools was comparatively low. Mosins, DPs, and such aren't that complicated. Today, however, your average infantryman is expected to be able to effectively employ far more demanding tools than just a bolt-action rifle. It simply isn't possible to train an infantryman to a basic operational standard on the equipment he's expected to be able to use and *still* get a useful amount of service out of him if all you have him for is two years, and then he goes home. Yet that is exactly what the Russians are trying to do.

[@jorgdahn3736]

Initially, the Russians took out better encrypted Ukrainian 3G and 4G towers. As the had poor communications, they had to resort to use regular mobile phones on the remaining Ukrainian 2G net which is much less good encrypted. Which led to Ukrainians taking out some Russian generals using those phones . . .

[@maynardcapellan1969]

Finland :1939 Skis Ukraine: 2022 Motorbikes

[@rhoddryice5412]

I found this post a user called Trident65 in a video about the winter war regarding the Swedish aid to Finland: (it is quite interesting a specially the list at the end) The swedish voluntary battalion 8500 man strong taking over the front at Salla freing up Finnish units to move to the Karelian isthmus. One third of the Swedish airforce moved to northern Finland wich was completely out of air defence. About from Kemi and northwards. The Flight Regiment 19 (Swedish: Flygflottilj 19, Finnish: Lentorykmentti 19 or LentoR 19), also known as the Swedish Voluntary Air Force or F 19 was a Finnish Air Force unit, manned by Swedish volunteers, which operated from Kemi in northern Finland for the last 62 days of the Winter War. The aircraft also came from the Swedish Air Force inventory. Its designation number was taken from the Swedish Air Force which had 18 flying regiments at the time. The designation F 19 has not been used in Sweden. When new regiments were formed they were named F 20, F 21 and F 22 When the war was over the evacutaion of Karelia with the help of battalion Sederholm, named after its commander major Sederholm, who arrived to Finland in March 1940 with 500 trucks, buses and other vehicles. A great help to transport the civilians, their belongings and their livestock. All fighterplanes Finland received/bought from Italy ( Fiat G50), France (Morane Saulnier 306), England ( Gloster Gladiator), USA ( Brewster Buffalo) were all delivered in Sweden where they were assembled in Trollhättan ( SAAB airplanefactories), Göteborg ( Götaverken), Malmö (AB Aeroplan) and CVM Malmslätt. 200 airplanes were assemled and testflewn there and their weapons calibrated. The finnish pilots were flown over to Sweden from where they flew their planes over to Finland. Suomen Valkoisen Ruusun mitalin The Order of the White Rose of Finland was awarded to the mechanics after the war. Since there was only one medal they drew for a winner and mechanic Abel Holmgren won it. All this led to the Swedish airforce receiving the heavy bombers B3 they had ordered three months late. The central bank of Sweden gave Finland a credit for some 300 million SEK 1939-140. The Swedish civilians helped to collect huge sums donated to Finland. Some of the war invalids were transferred to Sweden for better treatment and they also received prosthetics and in many cases were trained to a new profession that they could manage with their impediment. You can trasnlate this equipment list to finnish or english. It contains what military equipment was delivered. food, oil, medicine and fuel not here. There was a hell of a lot more help by civilian truckdrivers driving daily over the iceat Kvarken/Merenkurkku to deliver all kind of goods Okt 1939 12 st 7 cm kanoner m/02 12 st 40 mm lvakan 24 st 27 mm pvkanoner och 20 st radiostationer Dec 1939 12 st 15 cm haubitser 4 st 10,5 cm haubitser 4 st 10 cm kanoner 20 st 7 cm kanoner m/02 24 st 40 mm lvakan 15 st 37 mm pvkanoner 12 st 8 mm kulsprutor 24 st 6,5 mm kulsprutor 17 st granatkastare 260 st kulsprutegevär 55.400 st 6,5 mm gevär och 30 st kulsprutepistoler Jan 1940 22 st 40 mm lvakan 1 st 25 mm lvakan 18 st 20 mm pvkanoner 15 st 8 mm kulsprutor 16 st 6,5 mm kulsprutor 8 st granatkastare 160 st kulsprutegevär och 3.400 st 6,5 mm gevär feb 1940 4 st 21 cm haubitser. 8 st 10 cm kanoner. 48 st 7 cm kanoner m/02 + 12 st 7 cm kanoner m/30. 2 st 44 mm lvakan + 8 st 20 mm pvkanoner. 12 st 6,5 mm kulsprutor. 35 st kulsprutegevär. 25.000 st 6,5 mm gevär. mars 1940 10 st 20 mm pvkanoner. 4 st 8 mm kulsprutor och 125 st 6,5 mm gevär. Därutöver levererades C:a 45 miljoner patroner lätt infanteriammunition och c:a 276.000 granater. Ett stort antal vanliga lastbilar, ett 50-tal specialbilar som lvkulsprute, mät-, signal m fl fordon. 13 st specialtraktorer. Komplett utrustning för (utom pjäster med tillbehör) för sammanlagt 7 st artilleridivisioner, ett 7 cm lvbatteri och 2 st akantroppar. 70.000 m uniformskläde. C:a 11.000 gasmasker. 50 st radiostationer samt fältetefoner. 860 vanliga kikare. 7 st artillerikikare. 500 st kulsprutepistoler.

[@Shutendouji94]

i love this kind of videos, thank you!

[@olly230]

was waiting for your opinion on this. missed it when it happened. Thanks

[@GianmarioScotti]

This, for me, is your best video - and that saying a lot because your opus in general is of exceptional quality.

[@naukumaija7056]

I'll say, november to march in northern Finland is basically winter all throughout. The only affect of "spring" would be more sunlight, apart from that it's snow, snow, snow, especially in those decades. So you won't have greenery or melting snow. The snow might get a hard layer on top from the snow creating a thin icy surface on it, so it's easier to walk on if you're lucky.

[@johnmortin5603]

A couple differences. 1. 750,000 Russian troops against Finland a nation with 3.5 million people. 2. 180,000 Russian Troops against a nation with 43,000,000 with much much better weaponry.

[@mongedopantano6169]

Russia underestimated Ukraine, and this costed them a lot, the war could have been ended in 2 weeks if they invaded with a bigger army.

[@Redfizh]

I wonder how large army they would now have against million professionals, reservist and spare reservist with the latest weapons. Russia said Finland joining NATO would have military consequences but I don’t think so.

[@ajamessssss]

Problem is, bigger the army harder the logistics is. Russia was struggling to take care of logistics for these. If they have brought more troops, they would totally starve to death. Russia's problem in my opinion is their equipment and technology lagged behind because of corruption. Not man power.

[@robrob9050]

@@mongedopantano6169 That's true, they were hostage to Putin's decision to carry this as "special operation".

[@cs-rj8ru]

@@ajamessssss Probably so. Ukraine suffers from the same fate. Seems I remember a few years back 25% of Ukraine's Defense budget was reported missing.....

[@jonasmelander]

My grandfather fought in the winter war and the continuation war. He had so many stories from the war, but it was really hard to get him to speak about his experiences from the war. The only time he would talk about the war was when he was a little bit drunk.

[@snakeplissken2148]

people outside of finland think that is the only situation a fin would talk at all.

[@pompey333]

Yes! I was waiting for Ian to maybe talk about this comparison because it seems very similar. Also, I love how Ian explains things; it is very thorough and elegant.

[@Sevensixtytwo]

Yup. As Finn I can verify what Ian tells

[@thomasromanelli2561]

Thank you for beefing up my rather thin knowledge of the Winter War. "Victory" can be a relative term, but I suspect the general consensus would still be that Finland's negotiated peace (even at the cost of some sovereign territory) was the best outcome possible considering the alternative. There is an appropriate concern that unlike the Winter War, which was destined to remain a regional conflict, the actions and/or miscalculations of the Russian military may result in a situation that threatens to trigger Article 5. There was also not a lot of agriculture products coming out of Finland, but global food prices are already escalating rapidly as this conflict continues.

[@Njazmo]

Really? We have lots of forest, wood/logs was the best thing back then, and Finland has a lot of coast line. It is actually a strategically meaningful place to conquer, but we'll not going to allow it.

[@thomasromanelli2561]

@@Njazmo My apologies, as I did not mean to diminish Finland's forestry inputs into the global market per se (please correct me if there were significant foodstuffs contributions to global markets at the time), but my main point was the fact that multiple government sources are estimating that upwards of 10 million people world-wide are at risk of starvation because of the massive disruption in Ukraine's planting season. This data is what makes the duration and conduct of the conflict relevant to broader geostrategic effects that many countries will need to address.

[@jeremypnet]

@@Njazmo that’s as may be but Ukraine and Russia between them supply one third of global grain supplies. Or they did before the war.

[@andermolk2428]

@@jeremypnet The already poor and not prosperous countries will suffer from this. Sorry for them, but there's nothing you can do about it. Even if the war is unlikely to end, weakened Russia and Ukraine will resume deliveries of products to other countries, because they themselves will have a crisis.

[@zimbu_]

In general the way it gets taught in Finnish schools the result of the war is never called a victory, it's an ending with positive and negative sides additionally complicated by the fact that the peace after the war was a short one. The initial reaction to the terms of the peace treaty was actually a shock of loss for most Finns at the time, as the war propaganda had been positive and very few people actually knew how dire the situation was for the military. Finland was a tiny player in European economy before WWII, much smaller than today. Lumber and things made from wood like paper were important exports, but major effects to other economies were pretty much limited to neighbouring countries. At least if the comparison is to something like the Spanish civil war.

[@Rick-bc8lt]

We need more of this. I love it

[@Nperez1986]

I remember having a Finnish soldier work for me over a decade ago, he thought me about the Winter War and Continuation Wars, great stuff

[@markchiu576]

I’m an engineer, but I find myself more interested by the history Ian presents than the mechanics. I love Ian’s normal format but this was an amazing live comparison of world events. Keep it up Ian.

[@josephcoffey7013]

The fact that Mannerheim was able to keep things together long enough for the settlement really speaks to him being a military leader whose skill is very underappreciated and undersung outside of Finland, honestly.

[@jesscobb2279]

Fantastic comparison! Thanks Ian.

[@kevinchristensen534]

Thank you for the comparison!

[@ChiTownGuerrilla]

Thanks for taking the time to be such a great teacher Ian. Videos like this should be showed in history classes. 😁

[@paulhenry8174]

Just seeing this 1st week in December. Things have changed drastically since this was made. Very interested to see what happens this winter.

[@reliantncc1864]

Probably not much (I'm seeing this at the same time as you). If there are any big changes in the status of the war, they're not likely to take place in the winter. Putin is hoping to stall until the West gets tired of supporting Ukraine, and it may well work. The West is not known for being patient. To make matters worse, Ukraine still has corruption issues, and those will be more likely to be exposed the longer this lasts. That will reduce popular support for them. To be clear, I do support Ukraine, I'm just being realistic about the challenges that are ahead.

[@waltonsimons9082]

@Apsoy Pike wow, lvo lvic is a flipping genius. well not really, you're just uninformed.

[@waltonsimons9082]

@Apsoy Pike Well you lost the 'debate' as soon as you said: 'Yes, but Russia isn't the one who needs to make offensives.' Research, then state opinions.

[@waltonsimons9082]

@Apsoy Pike "Yes, but Russia isn't the one who needs to make offensives.'' "Point being if bakmud falls it makes no strategic difference." "Whereas the front in Kherson is critical for the supply of Crimea." These three quotes alone show how little you know about the subject, oh well...

[@Kingcoolbat]

@Apsoy Pike Well seeing as that guy joined 5 years ago... that's a gonna be a no for me chief. Two people now three all agree, you are an idiot.

[@Morphomerle]

Excellent video, thanks for sharing

[@tuomaskoivurinne1653]

Thanks, Ian! Great input!

[@parrotraiser6541]

Thanks for a profound historical comparison and analysis, Ian. It's interesting how little the Russians appear to have learned from history. Possibly an unfortunate side-effect of re-writing it as fiction? That tactic of picking on small sections of a larger force is what Musashi called "injuring the corners".

[@ChemistyStudent]

Defeat in detail is the western name for the tactic.

[@Car_Mo]

It's more than a little ironic, since the inability by foreign invaders attacking Russia to learn by previous attackers have served them (Russia) so well. 100 years before Napoleon failed (and 100+ years after that when Hitler tried and failed), the Swedish king Karl XII failed in a similar manor to invade Russia. It really tells the story of what kind of leaders are, who put themselves in those situations. It's the kind of narcissistic rhetoric of "I shall succeed where others have failed", which ironically fits scary well on not only on Russian troglodyte, cavemen mentality in general but Putin in particular.

[@Ghatbkk]

Worth watching - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oXecfKWbqb2kgNk

[@ArteriusSaren]

@@Car_Mo Napoleon didn't failed. He succeed. If it's not for Alexander I hatred towards Napoleon personally we would have an alliance to oppose British Empire and history would take a big turn. But....

[@tsorevitch2409]

@@ArteriusSaren true, Napoleon did succseed In loosing his army and Empire

[@keithplymale2374]

Every body thinks the war is going to be a short, victorious war and be home by Christmas. Everybody thinks they have all the cards. The two things in both cases the Soviets/Russians forgot is war has it's own calculus and the enemy gets a vote too.

[@Njazmo]

Nope. Putin thinks it'll be short. The guys that are going to Ukraine, thinks it's a "rehearsal", and then they are getting bullets back and actually die. Russians lie to own people, and few of them actually knows, that there's a war, that they won't win. Here in Finland there was a joke, if you wanted to go visit Russia "This is your captain speaking, we're landing to Russia, please set your clocks to 30 years behind, thank you". Putin is setting the clocks 100 years behind.

[@fellspoint9364]

f@x

[@imgvillasrc1608]

Ironically, so many times in Russian military history *did* the Russians actually *have* all the cards. The Seven Year's War, Russo-Japanese War, Winter War, Continuation War, Polish-Soviet War, etc. the Russians did have the capacity to easily and quickly finish these wars but always squandered their opportunities. Russo-Japanese War being the greatest of these.

[@andermolk2428]

@@imgvillasrc1608 they continue do it right now! Jesus, this guys never learn to own leasons - soooo stupid🤦‍♂

[@williampeterson333]

I really liked this, Thanks Ian

[@ItsAweeb]

Bravo, you have amazing understanding about what went down!

[@arnocopley4928]

Thank you for putting together a succinct comparison and contrast of these two conflicts. I too noticed many similarities between the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Winter War, from the political perspective to the tactical perspective. This is a bit personal for me since my grandfather fought on the Karalian Isthmus, several family members fled Viipuri as refugees, including a grand aunt and her 2 young children.

[@willmannn]

Seeing all the professional contrarians, alt-righters, tankies, and russians get mad in the comments brings me great pleasure

[@tritonum]

Great video Ian, super interesting stuff.

[@jakkejakaali849]

As a fin and a long time follower I salute you for this. Can't wait to check this out!

[@washingtonradio]

One key difference between Finland and Ukraine is Ukraine has land borders with friendly European/NATO countries while Finland was pretty much isolated from anyone who could have provided aid other than Germany. Getting aid to Ukraine is relatively ease and quick and difficult to interdict by the Russians without attacking NATO.

[@plushie946]

Even Germany remained relatively neutral during the Winter War, in order to keep the Soviets happy (they had significant cooperation and signed agreements at the time). It was primarily the Continuation War where German aid started to really come through.

[@emberfist8347]

Sweden was there to provide aid and they did. They used to be one nation after all.

[@-R-o-k]

@@plushie946 During Winter War Germany stopped arms deliveries from other countries to Finland.

[@igorsova]

It wasn’t Russians in 39, it was Soviets.

[@franknstein546]

It wasn't Germany, it was the Third Reich.

[@demonprinces17]

Same thing

[@baneofbanes]

Who were mostly Russians.

[@igorsova]

@@baneofbanes False. Majority were not Russians but Ukrainians + Belarussians + Kazakhs + Tatars + Chechens + Buyrats + ...+ even Karelians from occupied part of Finland. Please learn facts before making statements.

[@igorsova]

@@demonprinces17 Nope. Chechens were not Russians but Soviets. Russians were not Chechens bur Soviets. Soviets were Russians and Chechens and Tatars and Udmurts and Buyrats and Latvians and Estonians and Lithuanians and Ukrainians and ... many more.

[@DavidPowell-qt4yq]

An excellent analysis, accurate ,clear, many thanks.

[@Jazzy.girl.Sarah2023]

Really excellent.thanks for this!!

[@BHam336]

Ian McCollum: deep thinker, meme maker & gunslingin’ extraordinaire

[@bolasblancas420]

Aka “gun Jesus”.

[@aymonfoxc1442]

A straight forward, honest assessment and comparison from a guy who doesn't specialise in military history content but he does a better job than most. Thanks Ian 👍

[@GerhardHubner]

Very interesting analysis. As a side note, I finally understand why you've been reviewing exotic Finnish weapons all the time!

[@GregNuzhnyi]

Thank you, Interesting as always.

[@WOTArtyNoobs]

I remember stories about Finnish soldiers capturing half an entire Russian tank regiment - then going back the next night to steal the other half - the Russian commanding officer was executed. It appears that there is no difference between the Finnish soldiers and the Ukrainian farmers - have tractor, will steal enemy tank!

[@aalhard]

Thanks for doing this, Ian. Much appreciated, and extremely interesting 🤔

[@kenhelmers2603]

Very interesting indeed, thanks Ian!

[@pekkarissanen4926]

Many thanks Ian!👍100% bulletproof lesson!