Historical review of Masters of the Air Episode 7

[@beauclark1301]

You guys add a level of enhancement to the show that is truly remarkable. Thank you.

[@xflyingtiger]

I personally liked episode 7. I find it much easier to rip apart airplane scenes. As for me, there was far more right with the scenes shot in England and in the prisoner of war camps than there was wrong. I did notice some of the historical discontinuity. That being said, exposing a less than historically savvy audience to the bombing campaigns of World War Two is the important thing. Thanks for the discussion though. I enjoyed the inaccuracies that you exposed. I always enjoy the banter. My dad flew B-29s from Guam to Japan and back. That wasn't fun either.

[@donschmitz3972]

I liked this episode too (for me the last episode was a bit of let down). As we keep meeting new characters and try to follow their entire story there is just less time for each one and more threads to follow. I grew up with music videos and Jason Bourne movies, so the multiple time lines and quick cuts didn't bother me. And did Crosby really have sex that often? I think I have to go back and watch it again to count ;). We can hope for a "Director's Cut" on DVD - probably 18 hours long! - to fill in all the obvious gaps.

[@chrisschmalhofer4348]

I work in building 280 at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. The building was used as a barracks for German POWs during WWII. There are entire walls preserved in this building that were beautifully painted by those POWs; and there are current efforts to save those painting for historical value (perhaps to move them to the NMUSAF, also on base); since the building itself is slated to be demolished and replaced.

[@lesmoore6443]

Fantastic. Certainly hope these paintings are preserved.

[@FieryWACO]

On the edge of my seat waiting for these podcasts. Keep it up, Seth, Bill, and Tommy.

[@tkraft63]

Speaking of lead-in theme music, your channel has the most appropriate and fitting for your content. I love hearing it every time.

[@JakCharlton]

Weather from Norfolk vs Berlin can be very very different ... the Gulf Stream makes for a mild temperate UK vs the rest of Europe

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

And .. the semi permanent winter high pressure centred over eastern Europe pushes frigid winds from the frozen east over southern/central Europe with much reduced warming cloud cover. That is why the Alpine/Mediterranean winter is so cold.

[@mariellouise1]

Bill’s right. The escape back to Britain was most likely shot and left out. I thought it was jarring, too.

[@GazzaLDN]

Would have been interesting to show how Allied Airmen got treated in Spain, whether good or Bad given the division in the country from the Civil War.

[@SamAlley-l9j]

Thank you Bill Seth and Tommy.

[@teamshaboobalu2887]

How this channel doesn't have a million subscribers is beyond me...

[@richardvernon317]

Met a former RAF SNCO Flight Engineer called Vic Stevens in 1980 who had been in Stalag Luft |III after his Halifax crash landed on a frozen Norwegian lake after being shot up during an attack on the Tirpitz in 1942. He was injured during the landing and couldn't walk, so he had to stay behind while the rest of his crew evaded to Sweden. The Halifax broke the ice and sank, only to be recovered in the late 1970's and it is now on display at the RAF Museum at Hendon. Vic went around doing talks about the mission, plus his time in the POW camp, with his photo album of a lot of photos taken in the camp. When I asked him how did he get the camera and the film, plus the kit to process the film, he said "Off the Germans!!!!"

[@carlfasbinder5746]

Recently attended 100h birthday party for Ssgt Art Kemp a 35 mission tail gunner. Held at Champaign Aviation Museum in Urbana, Ohio.

[@TheNightowl001]

Kind of an aside, here, but I've seen several discussions on KZbin about whether or not the B-17 was a better plane or not than the B-24. But I've always thought, ever since I became aware of what a B-17 was, that it was one of the most elegant airplanes, regardless of type, ever designed. I just fell in love with the lines of the bird. Later, by the time I was in Junior High School, I'd read about how tough she was.. How crews loved it because often she could be shot all to hell and still make it back home. And, of course, the P-51 was without question the Sexiest Single-seat single-engine US (sorry, but LOVE me some Spits!) fighter plane. Fanboy 'til death for both these iconic warbirds. Glad to see I'm not the only one, Tommy!

[@jscagn626]

Love these recaps, glad this brought me to your channel! The history geek in me has found a new treasure trove to work through.

[@josephgilorma6979]

Their normal podcasts on the PTO are even more outstanding

[@JimBatka]

Regarding the music with the opening credits for "Master's of the Air." It is growing on me. But I thought you would enjoy knowing that the music for the opening credits for your podcast already moves me. I don't know who made it for you but it is a great piece!

[@robbinsteel]

I had many conversations with an American who ended up an early volunteer in the RAF for the Battle of Britain. He always made a point of saying, “of course we were all scared as hell all the time” every time he talked to me of his experiences.

[@waynewolfe8817]

My mom, was a WAAC, Women's Auxiliary Army Corp, and stationed in DC at Walter Reed Hospital when Captain Ted Lawson came in from the Doolittle Raid, he had lost a leg in the crash on the China coast. Mom had, my sister now has, the autographed copy of 30 Seconds Over Tokyo that he had written, I think while recovering.

[@jesscarver9882]

Sweet!! Been waiting all day!! Seth, Bill, Thanx for these!!

[@bigstevesnostalgiadragraci4240]

I've been waiting all day for this. As you guys stated, this episode, while very good, was not quite as good as the others. I really didn't need to know the details of Capt. Crosby's love life, for example. But, admittedly the other episodes set the bar pretty high. I did like the US CO refusing to reveal any captured Jewish airmen. Still, all in all, a good episode. Gonna hate to see this seies end.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

Boredom was sort of appropriate for all the Sagan scenes.

[@andrewmullins]

Col. Harding was sent back to the United States to get treatment for gallstones. He was also the QB of the West Point football team in the 20's.

[@jessicahawkes9637]

Yep, when they said he was gone i figured we had gotten to that part in the history of the BG. So i wasn't suprised when Col. Bennett was introduced into the show and how he was placed in charge temporarily. It will be interesting to see if the series will show the men who come after him with only 2 episodes left.

[@fireshack6485]

In Donald Miller's book, Harding's departure is depicted as a good thing because it gave the group time to train and rebuild after being depleted by the repeated missions. Harding had a reputation of never refusing a mission and the group suffered as a result.

[@ewathoughts8476]

You most certainly can build capacitors from scratch. Did it several times for repairing temporarily Navy receivers and transmitters during my time 1970 to 1976 as an ETR3-1.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

Without luxury consumer goods wrappings and dietary fat in a POW camp?

[@davidbrian2570]

Hey Gents, SC in for the viewing! Great job on Peleliu too, sobering but great!

[@seanquigley3605]

God almighty this episode reminded me alot of high school history books.....everything jammed in there and little snippets with only marginal context to what was going on. Nice catches on the flubs by Tommy....for some reason I didn't even question the fact it was sunny and warm in England while snowy and cold in Germany. Though you did miss the exit door at the tail of one 17 in the action scene after the Berlin mission being ON THE WRONG SIDE. 😅 it's just a brief second but I had to roll it back a couple of times to believe they made that big a goof. Hopefully if the crew had to really edit the series down to fit what Apple was willing to give them time wise then hopefully the team kept it and will put out a complete series on DVD or something after this one wraps up. Thanks for including the BnW footage of aircrew preparing at the end of this episode guys, notice the British parachute harness at least one is using?

[@mikeg9969]

March 7, 1944 Chick Harding was sent Stateside for gall stones. He had been suffering for weeks but simply refused to report to the medics

[@fishaddict2]

Dee Rees directed Episode 7; whereas most of the previous episodes were directed by Fukunaga. I wonder if that explains the difference in editing and story-telling.

[@ejt3708]

Thank you for the reference to Wingate (CBI Theater). We're not forgetting it right? You could do a whole episode on Ord Wingate. What a dude!

[@vaudevillian7]

That would be an amazing episode

[@vaudevillian7]

Although it might have felt cheap the weather was spot on, and England is that green in March. Maybe a few too many leaves on trees but as someone that lives in the UK I didn’t look at that and feel that it was jarring at all, it looks about right. Remember Europe has different weather patterns to the US (one reason the Norden was so ineffective) and Britain in particular is an island - we have the Gulf Stream so the winters are never as extreme as they are in Germany or Poland (where Stalag Luft III is). It can be raining in the front of the house and sunny at the back in England (not an exaggeration) so it doesn’t necessarily apply that because it’s raining or snowing in Poland it should be the same in England. There are palm trees in southwest England (honestly). I think this is one case where reality feels jarring and why filmmakers fall back on stereotypes so frequently (Thorpe Abbots is just under 1000 miles away from Stalag Luft III btw)

[@cliffjones8809]

James Clavell's 'King Rat', based on Changi POW camp in the Pacific, also has a story line about the secret radio of the prisoners. Great, great book.

[@georgea.567]

Movie's not bad either.

[@vaudevillian7]

Harry Crosby wrote how they always bought sailors a drink when they saw them on leave because the British rescue services did a great job rescuing allied airmen under fire - although most of the personnel were actually RAF in RAF boats, poor sods. Another positive in Crosby’s book that’s missed out and could make a great scene. Funnily enough he was much more positive about his experiences and the British in his book than in the series

[@drgondog]

Guys - you did a good job reviewing Masters. A couple of comments. On the March 6 Belin mission two 8th and two 9th AF Mustang groups were operational - 4th and 357th, ad 354th and 363rd FG. Second, the scene when the P-51s intercepted seemed to be ALL NMF P-51Ds. At that time on a VERY few NMF P-51B/Cs - they were all basically OD camo - and NOBODY went to the fight with external tanks attached, not to mention the question how many would have been shot down flying through a B-17 formation. The P51D wasn't actually operational until very late May 1944, in very few numbers. The P-47D NEVER had enough internal fuel until the arrival of the P-47D-25 w/370gal internal fuel. First arrival in May. They weren't in sufficient numbers to fly as a squadron until late June - at which time only the 56th, 78th, 353rd and 356th were still flying P-47s. The pied piper of bomber mafia and exhaulted P-47 range is Greg. When the Tuskeegee episode airs, remember that the 332nd didn't even get hand me down P-51B/C until late June 1944 and never near Berlin until March 1945... and very separated from 8th strikes. At the moment, Greg has agreed to debate me on the topic of P-47 range and bomber maffia conspiracy as root cause of 'holding back the P-47 pantheon of great long range escort'

[@sethparidon8654]

I would like to see the debate. Although, as we know, there isn't anything to debate.

[@billyshakespeare17]

@@sethparidon8654 That's one of the great things about the USA, open debate!

[@helzevec]

Having enough range to "make it to Berlin", at this stage, is complicated. Because the March '44 Berlin raids represented the first 8th AF Berlin raids, the Luftwaffe had yet to be pushed back to its late war stance (basically, back to Berlin). Therefore, the Luftwaffe was still employing its standard tactic of organizing around Dummer Lake (about 250 miles outside of Berlin), and then attacking once estimated allied fighter range was reached and then follow up on the return trip. As was typical, over the target dogfights were not common at the time. P47's were most certainly making it to Dummer Lake and other parts of Germany so as to be highly effective during the March '44 Berlin raids. Indeed, the 56th scored tremendous victories during these raids, including 11 on the 6th and 27 on the 8th. In fact, '44 was a banner year for the 56th, culminating in its record of 32 victories deep into Germany on a single mission on 12/23/44 - accounting for over 50% of enemy aircraft to fall that day. This episode, in classic style, depicts swarms of p-51's "saving the day", which simply wasn't the case. At the time of the raids, something like over six times as many p-47's were used relative to mustangs.

[@drgondog]

Explain what you mean?@@joedoakes-n3p

[@helzevec]

@@joedoakes-n3p Agreed. I re-watched Greg's argument and it doesn't have much to do with the P-47D-25 with the 370 gallon internal tank. Greg argues that p-47's in Aug/Sep 1943 (without the 370 gallon internal tank) were fully capable of carrying two 108 gallon external wing tanks, along with one belly tank, which, if employed, would have extended their range to at least 50 miles outside of Berlin (which is more than enough) or to Berlin itself (if you did the full 3 external tanks). Put another way, they could have fully escorted the bombers to Schweinfurt with this setup. He further argues that the AF was aware of this and was more than capable of rapidly deploying the tanks to the p 47s. But, it did not. Greg then points to a postwar AF analysis attempting to explain the 8th AF transition from the p-47 to the p-51. In it, Greg points out that they effectively stacked the deck against the p-47 by comparing later model p-51's with larger internal fuel tanks to early model p-47's with smaller internal fuel tanks, which had the effect of ignoring the later model p-47's with larger internal fuel tanks (which actually came out before the p-51 with larger internal fuel tanks). This resulted in a narrative that the AF had to go with p-51's because they didn't otherwise have a fighter with the range to go to Berlin. Of course, from there, you have to draw some conclusions about "why" this happened. Why the unfair analysis? Why weren't the tanks implemented in 1943? Greg concludes the bomber mafia is the culprit. There's no "smoking gun" per se, but there never will be. So, we have to draw our own conclusions. Given the broader context, the bomber mafia explanation seems the most plausible. I say all this as someone who thinks that ultimately, it was probably the right call for the 8th AF to transition to the p-51 for escort duty while the p-47 went to the 9th for CAS duty for issues other than range. But, the range narrative which has dominated the explanation for this transition is suspect.

[@gustaloni3107]

Enjoy every minute of these podcasts

[@misterbaker9728]

I been wanting to say thanks for awhile. I listen to the podcast. I am very impressed with the show. Love all the guests. Pelilu has been great. I’ve been tryin to spread the word about show on other history related you tube shows. I’m a 47 stoner cook outta Cleveland. Love the book recommendations big time also. I have noticed that a lot of these good books are either expensive or hard to get. My watch list on Amazon and thrift books is pretty bad. Anyways before I leave too long of a message I really just want to say thanks. History podcasts are few and far between. I miss Dan Carlins show. His pacific series is what got me hooked in the first place

[@moebeddah2288]

I've found a lot of their book recommendations on Ebay. Two outstanding reads are 'Pacific War Diary' by James Fahey, and 'Seranade to the Big Bird' by Bert Stiles.

[@cheesenoodles8316]

I knew a WWII RCAF captive of the Luftwaffen, he was very hungry...not starving. He talked allot about it. His son is a good friend of mine.

[@mariellouise1]

I listened to an interview with the real Rosie Rosenthal. He did buzz the tower like that more than once. He found out there was a general in that tower who had hit the deck. He was really worried that he’d be in trouble. Find that interview it’s great!

[@alanansara2190]

I think you guys nailed it. They’re starting to suffer from mission creep. Too many characters with different, albeit related, stories in too compressed a time. Which has me worried as it looks like they’re about to add 2 more stories in part 8. The Redtails and women (guessing OAE) bravely being inserted into occupied Europe to connect with the resistance and help prepare for Overlord are historically accurate stories and well worth telling. But the more of that you do in a mini-series format means the more fragmented and less focused each episode becomes. Hopefully this works out great and they can pull it off. But an episode of Rosy and the surviving 100th, Buck & Bucky in the POW camp, the Redtails and the intrepid Sub-Altern in occupied Europe seems like a lot to do

[@slimeydon]

My father said that when his ship came back after Okinawa and he got to go home for a bit that some of the porters on the trains were Italian POWs and they all said that they liked it here more than Italy and were really friendly

[@richardmardis2492]

Fun fact: The ranking officer on the British side of the prison camp (not seen in the show) walked with a limp- a wound he received flying during WW1… Shot down by Richthofen.

[@ronehall]

Bill, As soon as I heard the discussion of the POWs stealing the prison gate, I thought of you and whether you ever had your door stolen as XO. I was on the “other” crew during your XO tour. Sure enough, you brought the subject up! XO doors being stolen is a submarine tradition for sure. I want to hear about your part on Crimson Tide. The Alabama was my first boat and Captain Wright was my first CO, he along with Captain Beard played a part in that movie as well.

[@waynewolfe8817]

I also had a cousin in the German army, his first daughter was born in a displaced persons camp. They came to Akron Ohio where he had three more kids, and worked for 40 years at Ohio Edison, and they were welcomed with open arms.

[@c7042]

The Tuskegee airmen were definitely not DEI hires and I want to know their stories as much as possible. Nothing was given to those guys and I think they comported themselves admirably.

[@moebeddah2288]

There may be a need for a definitive narration of the Red Tails, but I don't think it needs to infringe on the series about the 8th AF an the 100th BG in particular.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

Were they not based in Southern Europe? A bit of a jump.

[@richardvernon317]

@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 15th AAF needs some love!!

[@timschoenberger242]

@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn393515th Air Force out of Foggia, Italy. They would never have escorted 8th AF.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

@@moebeddah2288 The 8th AF associated fighter pilots deserved to have their story told. How they ever found their way home with bad visibility and no navigation aids is amazing, I suppose England was one big airfield and anywhere would do on a bad day. Chuck Yeager wrote that they all looked like raccoons from sun tan around their goggles or sunglasses flying above the solid cloud cover.

[@richardvernon317]

Pretty much every thing that was happening in Poland and the Eastern Front to the Jews was made public by the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs , Anthony Eden in a speech in the House of Commons in December 1942.

[@Les537]

Thanks, boys.

[@oumajgad6805]

US government (and other allies) knew about Auschwitz for sure. "Raport W" was a document written by few people who escaped from Auschwitz in 1943 descripting what was going on there. One of them (and main author of said report) was Witold Pilecki and God, I hope You will make an episode about him one day (assuming that Your plans of covering ETO will come to fruition) because it's one of the most amazing and saddest stories of WW2 perfectly encapsulating what Poland went through during and after the war.

[@richardvernon317]

@oumajgad6805 The British foreign secretary, Anthony Eden told the British Parliament in December 1942 that wholesale murder of Jews in Poland and Eastern Europe were happening on an Industrial Scale.

[@pjg43]

The P-38 with drop tanks did have the range however the Allison Engines were too temperamental to be used effectively.

[@grahamtravers4522]

Right. Bring on the merlins ...

[@OPFlyFisher304]

​@@grahamtravers4522 Gezzzz. Fundamental misunderstanding of how aircraft are made and aircraft engines. Not a single Rolls Merlin seen combat in a P-51. All were American improved Packard motors. Greg's Planes and Autos has a great video as to why Packard motors on the P-38 would not have been easy or really help the issues. P-40 operated with Packard motors in late 42' early 43' with no real performance gain.

[@drgondog]

Note - Re: First Berlin mission March 3rd, 1944. Historically the 363rd FG (9th AF P-51B) not only reached Orienburg but shot down several Me 410s at Grabow NE of Berlin and continued escort past and around Berlin. James Howard (MO 354FG) was on loand to 363rd and led that mission. The 8th AF 55th FG P-38s also reached Berlin.

[@OPFlyFisher304]

the P-51 savior myth is a strong myth that is hard to bust.

[@daleheun7222]

I wish they would cover fighter squadrons for the P47,Jug,and the P51 Mustang. Throw in P38 and Mosi's

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

Mossies hit the Luftwaffe fighters at night and P-38s were sent elsewhere, somewhere warmer.

[@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar]

@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935there were plenty of 38’s in Europe.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Look it up, they were almost all gone from Northern Europe at the end. They didn’t work well in the cold, engine controls _and_ pilots froze up. See WW2 Bombers site time 8:38 here, kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYizknxtrrWbmdUsi=Pgps1fWBkshejIY4 The P-38s were all withdrawn by autumn 1944.

[@sergeantstandpipe4887]

In 1980 I was in the British Army in Germany. We had our first snow in late October in Fallingbostel and it snowed most weeks. In late November we flew back to the UK to no snow whatsoever. Now bear in mind Sagan (Zagan) is in Poland that’s a long way from the UK and even further from the Gulf Stream. Yes we have cold winters here but nothing like Poland!

[@gravitypronepart2201]

I love you guys, but on occasion People just disagree. I loved this episode. And I think the writers are doing an impressive job of putting in the highlights of the whole period. And did I miss something, I felt the episode was historically accurate.

[@gordonmcinnes8328]

The U.K. benefits from the gulf-stream and also central europe has areas with no bodies of water close to raise the temperature, so it is, on average warmer in Spring/Winter.

[@CutGlassMan-CTI]

Both the 38 and 51 flew over Berlin in march 44. Twin engine usually and here did have longer range.

[@vaudevillian7]

I think the problem is there’s not enough of a story is you just focus on the bomber crews of one bomber group so they’ve crammed too much other stuff in. I think if you covered the fighters as well, and maybe even a bit more RAF Bomber Command you can properly compare, contrast and show tactical development as well as the human stories while still focusing on the air war. I’m shocked that they basically breezed over Big Week

[@VetNavy]

Guys I disagree with you on attention to the program. How many time can you show B-17’s falling out the sky. Yes the sex scenes were a little much but Band and Pacific had there’s to. I actually like this episode and I’m looking forward to Tuskegee episode. Y’all have done a fine job covering this and the regular Pacific War stuff. CPO USN(Ret.)

[@AJ-hm5ck]

HI guys. Great job reviewing the episodes. One thing that bugs me. Donald Miller portrays 8th AF leadership as officially using the bombers as "bait" to draw the Luftwaffe up to fight. In all my reading and studying over the last 40 years, I never heard this view point as it related to 8th AF Command. It's true that the bomber crews might have felt this way, but it was never a strategy of leadership. In fact the strategy Doolittle enacted was to "free the fighters" to chase down the Luftwaffe. Their mission had changed from sticking with the bombers to hunting the German fighters. They were allowed to follow the German fighters down to the deck and catch them landing, refueling and taking off. It was a strategy that worked. The bombers and their crews were never bait, their job was strategic daylight bombing and that's why they were attacked by the Luftwaffe. Keep up the good work!

[@MingBlues]

Long ago man airman downed in Germany didn’t talk much did talk about killing rats with rocks for food. Your whole series is irreplaceable for people who understand history matters. Thank you.

[@lesmoore6443]

One technical sort of question. A quick look puts Luftstalag III about 120 miles from Berlin. Would the bombing of Berlin have been audible at that distance? Seems unlikely, though atmospheric conditions sometimes result in propagation of sound over large distances.

[@StylinandProfilinBBsandBBQ]

Great review guys!

[@fettfan91]

I also would have liked to see how those pilots made it back to England. However, I appreciated the small bit of narration that explained because they had traveled through enemy lines they could no longer fly and were sent home for good. Small but interesting detail.

[@rfreitas1949]

Seth the Cooler King was definitely ASH a Texan that gave up his citizenship to fly for Canada, he was not a great escape participant but he was an escape specialist and spent a lot of time in the Cooler.

[@petefinnegan3873]

goering quote when he saw mustangs......the war is lost.

[@moebeddah2288]

During early July of 1944, my Uncle Joe was taken prisoner by the Wermacht during the battle of St Lo. After a harrowing train ride across France and Germany, he ended up at Stalag III C in Altdrewitz, Germany. I recently came across a copy of a US teletype which states, " Stalag 3 C - A guard at Stalag 3C on 25 Nov 44, set a dog on PW Joseph ******* who was caught trading cigarettes for food. (6-45) 1". In late January 1945, my Uncle Joe was liberated by Cpt Aleksandra Samusenko of the Soviet First Guards Tank Army, and Joe Beyrle of the 101st. The liberation did not happen without unfortunate bloodshed, as the Soviets had the Germans on the run through the woods, and fired upon anything that moved, including over anxious Allied prisoners. My uncle didn't talk much of his experiences, and I was too young to ask pointed questions. He did have however, a head full of bristly premature grey hair. I would ask him why his hair was so grey, and he would briskly rub his scalp and say, "German 88's".

[@timschoenberger242]

Regarding awards, the official USAAF history does say that awards were granted quite liberally. My father, a member of a Fifth Air Force service squadron in New Guinea and the Philippines, received a Bronze Star (without Oak Leaf, which became an under combat indicator) for his efforts in keeping planes flying. His unit did suffer from bombing raids until Jan 45.

[@davidpk6254]

I have read the data you posted in "Development of the long-range escort fighter" and now i am very confused. It looks like they take source data from aircraft of varrying months. On page 51/52, they describe Lockheed guaranteed a cruising range of 2,000 miles when fitted with (dual, im assuming) 150 gal tanks and states Republic using similar tanks promised about 1,600 miles. The authors never go back to discuss that statement, if tank development was lagging and they couldnt provide enough. I do see they mention P-47s not being sent without the 200 gal belly tank. Also, that P-47Cs were brought over. Curious though, they do discuss the 200 gal belly formed tank that wasn't sent with tbe aircraft to Europe. The article states that those tank would have brought the P-47s 200 miles beyond the coast. The article later states that Eaker did request for tanks for the P-47, specifics lacking on which. Also, page 158, towards the bottom, they compare a P-47 on internal fuel (unknown model) to a P-38J-5 (~Aug '43) with a droppable 165 gal tank and a P-51-1 (?) with an additional 85 gal internal. I wish the orginal authors could have provided specific models as the P-47 did receive an additional internal as well. Being a pilot myself, and Bill should understand, that aircraft have specified fuel burns for each taxi/take off/climb/cruise. As pilots understood their aircraft better, the ranges increased beyond the manufacturer's stats. Conspiracies aside, and this isnt the podcast for the discussion, but a comparison of the P-51 and the P-47 on a month to month, model basis would put this drop tank question to bed. It would be curious to discuss drop tank availability during these times as well. Thank you for all your efforts!

[@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar]

Thank you

[@lesmoore6443]

Didn't dislike the episode as much as our great hosts, though I concur with the criticism about it being too busy and disjointed. Also agree that the escape/evasion story of Quinn and the other airman should have been given some time. Would not have taken much time to get them thru France, then Spain and on to Gibraltar. Also noticed the continuity edit error with the winter conditions at Luftstalag III and back at Thorp-Abbot - sort of surprised, in a production this skillfully done and taking years to complete. On German POWs in the US, many great stories, generally conforming to the comments in this review episode. A good place to start right on KZbin is the documentary about the camp at Concordia, Kansas, where several prisoners returned and married local girls after the war, and many became like family members to farm families where they worked.

[@coryheckler2354]

My friends, I find your comments are spot on. I feel the same. They need to follow Band o Brothers format. That will keep the attention on the audience. Thanks guys.

[@johnye4433]

I honestly felt that the return of shutdown aircrews was a cleaver presentation because the most deadly parts were already explained, there was no need to special op details of extraction but their end story was about a special self preservation

[@simpleliving1132]

Thanks Guys. : )

[@billyshakespeare17]

Did Hap Arnold issue an order that drop tanks were not to be used early in the war? Or was he only referring to ferry tanks? Did Kenny's P38 and P47s have drop tanks in 1943 in the Pacific?

[@gordonbickel7182]

Over the years I have heard of POW TALKING about the German had a lot of information on individuals that was captured.

[@richardvernon317]

The pick up of RAF and USAAF evading airmen from Brittney in the first half of 1944 was done exclusively by Royal Navy Motor Gun Boats (MGB's).

[@bw5542]

Near the beginning, Bill mentioned that he would tell sometime about the relationship between Hogan’s Hero’s and the Godfather. Not knowing myself, I checked ChatGPT 3.5 and Gemini. Both AI’s say there is no direct relationship, and Gemini identifies an indirect relationship through Albert S Ruddy, was involved with both. Gemini and IMDB have slightly different information, but this person could be what Bill was referring to.

[@mustavogaia2655]

One aspect that is making the series difficult to follow is that the main characters are passive - things happen to them. Maybe it is a contigence from bomber operations, but the series show that characters actively solving problems - like Winters was shown in BoB. Not only on action terms - we have only seen Crosby been a good navigator for 30 seconds. I am not sure about Bucky's (Turner) point on the show is. Buck (Butler) had some moments of greatness while piloting. Rosie's "dogfight" was good and I expected that other characters were shown like that. Biddick's segments seem to be the most memorable part od the series. Apparently the characters represent real people, but the series is not doing them a good service.

[@jasonross1967]

Seth, you mentioned books on the evasion of downed airman. Can you suggest some? Most I've come across do just as the episode, talk about initial moments on the ground then that's it.

[@rfreitas1949]

Little Deiter must Fly is a Vietnam version of

[@alangreer1142]

I agree, this was my least favorite episode. I too wished they had explored the journey of the two rescued airmen a little more. Once the Mustangs were allowed to go on the offensive that really spelled the end for the Luftwaffe. Enjoy your commentary. You guys really pick up on the smaller details that I overlook. I know this will stop soon, but really enjoy listening to you guys twice a week!

[@raybrigance2946]

There were probably more P51’s than P47’s because of the costs $50,000 compared to $80,000

[@jaymacpherson8167]

There is documentation from the war showing the P-47 range as inadequate to provide escort into Germany. This document did not take into account the use of belly tanks to extend range, though I don’t recall how far. Greg’s Airplanes does a good job of addressing this misunderstanding.

[@thegreatdominion949]

It's internal fuel capacity that determines how far an aircraft can operate from its base, not how much it can carry in external tankage. We also have to consider the fact that even though the P-47 was a larger aircraft with more internal tankage than the P-51, the 2000 hp radial engine of the P-47 burned fuel at up to twice the rate of the much more efficient in-line Merlin engine of the Mustang.

[@jaymacpherson8167]

@@thegreatdominion949 are you saying the P 51 flew to Berlin and back without an external fuel tank?

[@richardvernon317]

@@jaymacpherson8167 As soon as the fighter drops its tanks to do combat, internal fuel is all it has.

[@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar]

There is no misunderstanding. The Jug DID NOT HAVE THE RANGE. Otherwise it would have been used in that regard. www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/documents/Studies/101-150/AFD-090529-044.pdf

[@jaymacpherson8167]

@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Guys, no need to shout (all caps).

[@HobokenEscapee]

Related, sorta: I see the scenes where the gunners frantically fire at attacking fighters. How often to they hit their own plane? Or other friendlies. Once the CAF and their Helldiver were in town for an airshow. I asked the pilot how the rear gunner keeps from shooting the tail off his own plane. He replied in what sounded to me like a NOLA drawl, “I imagine they wanted to stay alive.” Sarcasm? Dunno.

[@tinalouisestagg]

@HobokenEscapee you couldn’t hit your own plane, the guns were either limited in their range of movement or had devices fitted, such in the case of the tail gunner, that stopped the guns from firing when pointed at the tail. There was training to avoid accidentally firing on other bombers, and although friendly fire was a problem, I saw a table where it accounted for a small percentage overall, about 3% from memory. Disclosure: my memory is shot, it only has room for useless facts about NASA crewed missions from 1961-1975.

[@bertcopeland]

I heard a commentary by Rosie where he said that sometimes crew who bailed out were gunned down and ALSO we did it - not all the time though.

[@democracy_GER]

Great Vidcast. Love it. Two things guys: Berlin and Sagan (Stalag 3) are 200km apart. Hearing the bombing, really? Sometimes here in Cologne were i live it is a wonderful warm spring and my aunt in Berlin has snow. Thorpe Abbots an Sagan are 1400 km apart. Wheather can be different.

[@jordan6049]

March in South-East England is honestly pretty lovely and would definitely not have snow

[@grahamtravers4522]

Generally, yes. I recall snow in June on one occasion, though.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

They weren't in S.E. England, they were south of the Humber and I saw heavy snow around there in March in the 1970s. It will be a bit warmer these days.

[@Ulyssestnt]

This episode was a little rough,Maybe this is where the reshoots came in. I have noticed the show seems to go out of its way to get down on the british,which is kinda strange they dont balance it out ever. Been a strong season up to now though.

[@williamwallin8035]

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one that thought this one missed the mark,

[@kimmoj2570]

06:30 RCA had ordered two 200 kW radio transmitters, when such power level was decided to be illegal in USA. Brits bought both transmitters in 1941, slacked them together and had one 600 kW transmitter for BBC news for whole Europe. That was 5 times more powerfull than second/third biggest stations in world.

[@kimmoj2570]

BBC could almost be heard by your tooth fillings in mainland Europe, so powerfull that radio transmitter was.

[@pjg43]

Capt? there’s never NEVER a thing called unnecessary sex.

[@MrTScolaro]

The "not accurate with respect to calendar" depictions of background scenery is something that has occurred from the October raids.

[@karlryan3781]

I was a little disappointed that the March 6 raid was spoken of in passing and not shown. I understand why they did it, none of the principle characters were in the raid. But its the big one. The most casualties are sustained here. This is the mission my great uncle died on so to me it was very personal.

[@jesscarver9882]

Seth! The claim is IF they had bothered, there COULD HAVE BEEN a fighter escort.

[@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar]

I’m sorry but that simply is not true. www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/documents/Studies/101-150/AFD-090529-044.pdf

[@christophermancini7380]

I totally agree and have the same concerns that the show might be trying to do too much with the time available. I believe the new subplot with Crosby's romantic interest is totally superfluous in particular.

[@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935]

@@christophermancini7380 The fuel burn from marginally extended range drop-tanked ultra heavy P-47s would be another burden on the war in the Atlantic, 1943 was bloody and there no excess from earlier years either.

[@drgondog]

Nope. To provide P-47D target escort w/305 gal tanks to even Schweinfurt would have meant 100% loss due to fuel starvation in France. The P-47D only ranged as far as Celle wth 2x150gal externals in MAY, 1944.

[@jesscarver9882]

@@drgondog Have you even watched Greg's videos?

[@billyhouse1943]

Thank you…

[@DavidChapman-u7c]

Although not my favorite, i liked it better than part 3.

[@OPFlyFisher304]

The 56 had the most kills of ALL 8th AF. "Better airplane is subjective". What that can be confirmed is the P-51 was cheaper, easier to fly, and used less fuel. The P-47 was needed for a more dangerous role, tactical 9th AF. It is not argued that the P-47 was much more rugged. The TOP ten P-47 Aces in the ETO ALL survived the war. Belly landings alone killed many p-51 pilots. "Better airplane" is subjective. it is a shame the P-51 was operated in Korea, P-47 would have saved more airmen, once jets are operational both are obsolete.

[@parrot849]

I agree with you all that this was the worst episode of the series. What sticks out in my mind was the few scenes in which Bucky is depicted as acting like he’s just stepped into bizarro world with that childish ranting that culminate in a physical altercation with his best friend next to the rope-powered tree-stump pulling contraption in the Stalag’s main compound. And throughout the episode it’s…, “hey Buck, we really need to try to escape no matter what!” (A week later) “Wait Buck…, no, we should not try to escape, we’re better off here!” (3 days later) “Nahh…, ive changed my obviously brain-damaged mind again Buck, let’s indeed try to escape, I can’t take it here, I guess cause my character in this series is so F’n special and important, so to hell with any of the other POW’s and how it would affect their existence here with these psycho-SS “tools” and the repercussions against them if I unilaterally choose to fly the coop.” After seeing this episode, If I were a captured POW Tuskegee Airman and was plotting to escape; given Bucky’s present mental state in this episode, I would stay as far away from him as possible…. He’s loony toons…. A big P.S., I’ve mistakenly mixed some of my opinions based on scenes from both episodes 7 and 8 and formed into the above thoughts I just set forth, but no matter, the points I try to make are still valid, even so….

[@alexkarman4679]

There are great examples and build instructions online of WW II foxhole radios and pinhole cameras

[@Steve-dg3md]

Guys.. reading the Journals of Lewis and Clark...... they said dog makes a mighty fine meal. 😂😂

[@JimBatka]

I saw a scene with a flight of "Forts" flying in formation near the end of the episode 7. The scene showed the 4 propellers of every bomber spinning in the same direction. This isn't correct. The "Forts" had 2 engines turning in one direction (IIRC, the port propellers spun clockwise and starboard propellers counter-clockwise) to counter-act the gyroscopic effect of the engines on aircraft maneuvers. I know this is a nit but it's also something easy that the FX guys could fix.

[@JimBatka]

^^withdrawn. B-17 did NOT use counter-rotating props (unlike the P-38).

[@johnmoore9404]

I love the conversation about a great series but how about starting your own - WWII Europe Front series

[@kevinoviatt3958]

It went to multi storyline formula. The ruin of modern television. Show how they prosecute the war in last episodes please !

[@MrTScolaro]

Wouldn't they get information on the state of the war from new POWs?

[@conniecooley5542]

You guys have so much knowledge on military history and I appreciate your opinions on those subjects. However, I do t believe you should be critiquing the actual filmmaking. Obviously, none of you are “Spielgbergs.”

[@abrahamdunn]

What’s the conspiracy you mention (as being false) regarding the P-51s and 47s?

[@terryemery7839]

It would have been nice if they spent more time on the concept of the bombers used as “bait.” The 1.Strategic, 2. Operational, and 3. Tactical missions of the 8th Air Force has changed. Doolittle was brought in especially for this purpose. Eaker and Harris bombing campaign has been ineffective, costly, and misdirected. For the so-called strategic daylight bombing is most effective when you have air supremacy or at least superiority. Air Marshall Tedder via Eisenhower told these guys to get their shit together for the d-day invasion. Eisenhower guaranteed to invasion forces, that any planes over the beaches would be friendly. Fighters are supposed to umm, well fight. Move ahead, clear the skies, create local superiority at the least. The first two missions to Berlin were costly, but the third run was effective. The reasons, defending pilots were either dead, exhausted, or planes were shot up.

[@kevinoviatt3958]

Thanks!

[@JimBatka]

Gentlemen, the P-38 had a longer range than the P-51 and served as escort for the bombers before the introduction of the P-51. However, it was considered as inadequate because it couldn't fight at the speeds the Me-109 and Fw-190 fought. To be clear the P-38 could fly at those speeds, just not fight.

[@davidlavigne207]

I felt I was in a time warp watching this film with nothing to really connect the timeline from 1943 to 1944. There were some major continuity issues with this episode. I appreciated the fine acting and portrayals by the cast, but the writing, direction and plot was disappointing to say the least. The film sequences of the Berlin mission seemed somewhat Star Wars like to me as well. I shall not give up it though. I hope that the end product will redeem itself.