The worst naval decision of WW2? - The Destruction of PQ17

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[@historigraph]

For unlimited access to the world’s top documentaries and non­fiction series go to go.thoughtleaders.io/166892020... and use the promo code 'historigraph' to get 30 days free access. Buy Historigraph Posters here! teespring.com/stores/historigraph Support the channel on Patreon: www.patreon.com/historigraph #ConvoyPQ17 #Historigraph #CuriosityStream ► Twitch: www.twitch.tv/addaway ► Twitter: twitter.com/historigraph ►Facebook: facebook.com/historigraph/ ►Instagram: instagram.com/historigraph ►Patreon: www.patreon.com/historigraph

[@michelangelobuonarroti4958]

Didn't you post this on your channel Addaway first?

[@alexpoole5552]

what happened to the discord? was pretty fun

[@JeanLucCaptain]

Ironically the Terpitz did nothing and still sunk an entire convoy 🤦‍♂️

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

5:47 do i see USS Washington in both the English and the American fleet???

[@JeanLucCaptain]

@@sjonnieplayfull5859 Washington was an English aristocratic family 😊

[@JamesTobiasStewart]

May I just pop in to sing the praises of HMS Ayrshire; a converted fishing trawler which was one of the only escort ships left after the scatter order. Despite being ordered to proceed to Russia alone, it's commanding officer, Naval Reservist Leo Gladwell decided that was stupid if he and the merchantmen were going to the same destination anyway and started working on a plan. He gathered up a small number of merchant ships and told them to follow him North to the pack ice, where he had them stop, paint the ships hulls white and put all the linen cloth they had out on deck so as to look like icebergs. After some time waiting (where at least one plane went over and apparently bought the subterfuge because it didn't fire), Gladwell led his little convoy towards Russia, picking up a few new ships along the way and successfully escorted his mini convoy into port intact. Amazingly (because no one thought to tell the escorts that Tirpitz wasn't in play even when it'd become obvious it wasn't) he even devised a tactic to try and fight Tirpitz (Gladwell was brave but he wasn't insane enough to think he could win, just hope to stall it while the merchant ships ran for it), which was to rig all the depth charges he had into a big bomb mounted to the prow and then if Tirpitz showed up; try to ram it and detonate the bomb. To me whether that would work is almost academic, just the fact that he was seriously having to consider how to fight a battleship with an armed trawler because of Pound's cock-up is just insane.

[@benwilson6145]

This is well covered in Jeremy Clarksons video.

[@kiel_3222]

@@benwilson6145 Got a link?

[@_..Justin-Case.._]

Surprised his ship could float with the weight of his balls.

[@whoohaaXL]

@@benwilson6145 Yeah man, if you can shoot a link that'd be awesome. I really wanted to see that docu. Love how Clarkson tells his stories.

[@flym0]

@Connor Thomas Just done a search and it appears to have pulled from the online BBC archive. As we all know, external links can't be pasted here either.

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

HMS Trinidad: Trust nobody, not even yourself.

[@m1garand903]

The 225677th Fragment of the Man-Emperor of Mankind WHY DO A ALWAYS SEE YOU ON HISTORY VIDEOS

[@kiefercuppett6749]

M1 Garand I just see him everywhere

[@erika002]

People are just starting to notice now that OP everywhere, I realized this months ago.

[@owo5869]

You again, seems like you do have a great sense of humor

[@fludblud]

@@m1garand903 Cos The Emperor has multiple fragments duh

[@philwoodfordjjj8928]

Always remember; as soon as a merchant seaman's ship was sunk, and he hit the water, he was "paid off" meaning that his pay stopped and the ship's owners had no more responsibility toward him. If the seaman should make it back the UK, there was little to look forward to other than abuse (as he had no uniform) and to ship out again, facing the same increasing risk. These facts are by and large overlooked.

[@Viking102938]

Jfc that's an awful long way to swim for a respawn

[@Revy8]

modern propagandists make wars about fights for FREEDOM, while in truth wars are waged by leaders who couldnt care less about how many men died as long as they stay in power

[@philwoodfordjjj8928]

@@Revy8 in the case of a merchant seaman, his dependants got nothing, and many were left destitute. They were forced back to sea to keep the country alive, but in so doing thousands paid the ultimate price.

[@bobroberts6155]

My Uncle Jim was a merchant sailor on North Atlantic convoys who survived having two ships torpedoed and sunk by U Boats. My mother, who was much younger the her brother, clearly remembered sitting in church while the hymn Eternal Father, Strong to Save was sung and seeing her mother weeping at the line ‘for those in peril on the sea’. The agony of those left at home should not be ignored when the horrors of war are you discussed.

[@grendelgrendelsson5493]

Sir Dudley Pound was already suffering from the brain tumour that would kill him in 1943 when these events took place. The effect of his illness at the time of ordering the convoy to scatter can never be known but it was probably having an effect on his judgement. My uncle served on convoy escort vessels from 1939 onward on North Atlantic, Mediterranean and Russian convoys. As a gunner aboard HMS Belfast, he took part in the Battle of the North Cape against the Scharnhorst and was also at D-Day. He survived numerous combats only to die of asbestos related illness caused by the asbestos dust falling from pipe lagging aboard ship and it is also possible that the flash-hoods that were worn in action were also impregnated with asbestos.

[@Wrayis2Pro4U]

While no one knew that he had the tumour until right before his death, there were many signs beforehand. CIGS Alan Brooke actually hated Pound for constantly falling asleep during important conferences and felt lots of remorse when he found out it was because of a brain tumour rather than laziness. I think Pound should have been dismissed or pressured to resign as it became clear that he was incapable of being First Sea Lord.

[@rob5944]

Same thing killed my father in law, he was in the 15th army. After the war he worked as an engineer for a dry cleaners, not taking effect till the 1980s!

[@rob5944]

I've read that before, very sad...I wonder if he should of been relived of his command.....Even if well, imagine the pressure trying to decide whats right. There judgements had to be made all the time, day in, day out.

[@goodshipkaraboudjan]

Aspestos is nasty stuff. My Dad was a RAAF pilot in the 70s/80s and the cockpits of the fast jets then (and the training jets he later instructed on) were aspestos lined to prevent the ejector seat igniting fuel. He's in his 60s now and just starting to suffer.

[@stastu6484]

@CHARLES-DEFEAT-GLOBAL HOMO-KALERGI-ISLAM-FOR EUROPA david irving is not an author nor a source. His books are terrible lies and he has even been in court for making up sources. Dont read him

[@colonial6452]

I met a survivor of PQ-17 in Antwerp, Belgium. He had been a 17-year old merchant sailor at the time and told me that he thought that it was a great adventure at the time and had no idea of what was happening to the other ships in the convoy once they had scattered.

[@kesfitzgerald1084]

Pound's decision may be explained in that he was ill with an undiagnossd brain tumour, which undoubtedly impacted him mentally and physically and of which he later died.

[@0MVR_0]

Was scouring the video with a constant replay to reconnect the logic. Good going with the information.

[@markwheeler202]

Yet another reason why he should have been relieved of his command.

[@milotura6828]

Huh

[@zekiboranucar5149]

@@markwheeler202 it was not know yet

[@andrewgraham6006]

@@markwheeler202 key word undiagnosed they did not know he had this

[@randomguy-tg7ok]

What makes PQ17 remarkable is that it's both an intelligence failure and a command failure amongst the Allies - both of which were (in both the mid- and late wars) very rare.

[@rob5944]

It does say Ultra was back up and running, just a poor decision, albeit an understandable one?

[@randomguy-tg7ok]

Maybe, though I'd argue that Ultra did not come back online early enough to influence the decision to scatter enough to change it.

[@nottoday3817]

Well, if you call 1942 mid-war. Perhaps they were rare.

[@donlove3741]

Market Garden, Battle of bulge , Hurtgen forest, Monte Cassino, Anzio...

[@nottoday3817]

@@donlove3741 Battle of the Bulge was actually a success for the Americans and the British. It was an initial push by the Germans which got halted wayy to early for them. It is to be expected that an offensive would procede that way, but in the end, none of the operational or strategic objectives had been reached.

[@theofficialsikris]

HMS Trinidad: "Fire Torpedoes!" Torpedo: *Uno Reverse Card*

[@darthmeta6445]

That takes true skill right there.

[@j.dunlop8295]

This cover's a Convoy of supply ships to Russia "lend lease program" which the British insisted they should command! The disaster, Admiral Pound's order had doomed PQ-17 to destruction. He ordered them to scatter, warships to run away! (Proud moment for the British Navy!) 11 ships made it, out of 34! (My uncle John survived that convoy, but later had a mental breakdown!) Adm. Pound, was dead year and half later, they said, "illness?" (Between 1939 and 1945, 9,521 merchant mariners lost their lives - a higher proportion than those killed than in any military branch, according to the National World War II Museum.)

[@DaveSCameron]

Our grandfather died on board HMS Celendine on these Arctic Convoys, aged just 31 he never met his new born son, our late father... #heroes!

[@user-lf6qm8yn1k]

Hello from hero-city of Murmansk and glory to your ancestor.

[@geraldjohnson9945]

all wars are bankers wars

[@didierdenice7456]

@@geraldjohnson9945 ...and most proeminent bankers in the World (except Asia) are juice !

[@Xingmey]

@ISLIPPEDONMYBEANS ! why?

[@Xingmey]

My grandfather was on a submarine in the arctic that time. Source. Trust me dude....

[@peters972]

Imagine being a sailor in the freezing arctic at night with imminent danger of being shot by submarine, battleship or torpedo plane, and with storms and the danger or running aground. Pretty stressful.

[@danishkfd]

Yeahhhhh the only issue thing was it was day like its 6 months day and 6 months in arctic

[@jakeflfirelegend5377]

Just shows how crucial it was cracking enigma if 1 day were it couldn’t be read it created such a panic

[@recklessroges]

It also shows how easy it is to become dependant on tools and to depend on a panic crippled instinct rather than logic. (Always write down your hypothesis on the chart *before* adding in additional external data.)

[@looinrims]

Imagine if the Germans didn’t use a piece of shit like the enigma machine, oof

[@ReisskIaue]

@@looinrims There were a few branches in Germany that used the enigma until the end of war with great success and without Ultra being able to decrypt it: Railway personell did not use a standard sheme of codes (while the Wehrmacht did... the British knew the first words of every message so they could break the code) and they massively used slang - so there was no starting point for Ultra.

[@heinrichmirgrautsvordir6613]

@@ReisskIaue People seem to think that Bletchley Park could just fully decrypt every message encrypted by Enigma. In truth Bletchley Park was just a tool, only as good as the people intercepting the messages and at the mercy of the people using enigma. If you were to put an alphabet at the start of every message, even the most modern encryption methodes would be hillariusly easy to crack and thats essentialy what the german high command did. They were so overconfident in the machine enigma that they forgot that even the best designed machine cant compensate for human error.

[@breamoreboy]

@@looinrims You mean like some of the German army enigma ciphers that were still unbroken at the end of WWII?

[@luxembourgishempire2826]

Good to see you back

[@sveinerlingbjerkestrand2458]

he never left

[@luxembourgishempire2826]

@@sveinerlingbjerkestrand2458 Hey Richard Nixon. I was referring to him making another video.

[@anglowarrior7970]

@@luxembourgishempire2826 hey bro

[@luxembourgishempire2826]

@@anglowarrior7970 Hey

[@anglowarrior7970]

@@luxembourgishempire2826 remember me

[@Richard-od7yd]

I spent 3 Winters in the North Atlantic chasing Ivan in the 70s and we all knew about PQ17 on the Bridge Watches . The U-BOATS and CONVOYS were never far from our minds even when sailing detached from our Task Force . I've personally done 5 transits of convoys in those waters .

[@Snootyboss]

My Grandfather, George Gibbons was a TAG on Norfolk in PQ17. He was in the Walrus that had to ditch after the scatter order. The Palomares towed her to the Soviet Union. Whilst he told me many stories of his time in the Navy from a boy sailor in 1926 and his travels around the world, some of which were horrific (especially in China), he never discussed PQ17. My grandmother said he used to wake screaming for years after the war. I've spoken with a crew member on the Palomares and donated some of his photos to Yeovilton fleet Air Arm museum. I've still his log book from his time on swordfish and walrus and the entry that day just says "aircraft failed to return". It wasn't over when they got to Russia as they weren't trusted due to the Russians refusing to believe so many ships had been lost. It was an awful and needless loss of life. Certainly not the Royal Navy's best day. Should anyone make a video of the RN in the China station at Wei hei wei I have a lot of photo's still. Happy to provide copies of anything that I have as long as acknowledgement of the photographer is given. A great upload and very well done, thank you.

[@joelspringman7748]

Oh, my gosh, that's awful!!! I don't think the Merchant Marine has gotten even MINIMAL recognition for their contribution and sacrifices to the defeat of Hitler! I have only met one or two men who were in the Merchant Marine, and my sense of awe is as high as it is for men who served in the regular armed forces. Their service was VITAL to Allied victory over Hitler. These are unsung heroes! We owe them a debt of gratitude, to say the least!!!

[@Historylover-ho6lg]

What are you talking about? Dozens of books have been written about the merchant marine. 'Bitter Ocean' by David Fairbank White and 'Battle of the Atlantic' by Jonathan Dimbleby to name just two. In 1943, there was a movie called 'Action in the North Atlantic' which was made as a tribute to the merchant marine. It was a propaganda movie, sure, but it was still made to highlight the bravery of the sailors. They are hardly forgotten. Most people just aren't educated.

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello Joel ! Soviet (russian) people know about convoys. Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический'.(since 1972; about PQ-17). In the Murmansk and in the Arkhangelsk there are monuments to the northern convoys. Good luck.

[@liammoore3210]

My great grandfather was on the HMS Pozarica for PQ17 and thankfully survived the war as well as the convoy. He was mentioned in a book by Godfrey Winn, my great grandfather had Sunk 4 times before the PQ17 convoy had happened. So blessed to have photos of him on the convoy and his certificate/Arctic Star!

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello Liam ! Thanks for your great grandfather and other seamans convoys from ex-USSR ! Now I am live in the Arkhangelsk region. Look Soviet film ' Семнадцатый трансатлантический'.(since 1972; about PQ-17). Good luck ! 👋

[@tomsemmens6275]

The decision to abandon the merchant ships of PQ17 affected the RN destroyers deeply. lt-Cdr Roger P. Hill of HMS Ledbury: "...There were twenty-three ships sunk in that PQ17, one-hundred-ninety seamen killed, four-hundred or five-hundred aircraft were lost, about three-hundred tanks and a hundred thousand tons of war material. That's what resulted from that Admiralty signal. It was really terrible, even now I have never got over it, because for the Navy to leave the Merchant Navy like that was simply terrible...." Later, HMS Ledbury escorted the Pedestal convoy and Hill vowed he would never leave the merchant ships, regardless of any order. Hill witnessed the bombing of the SS Waimarama (coincidentially named after a small coastal village near where I grew up in NZ): "...You never saw anything like it. The flames were hundreds of feet in the air, black smoke, it was a terrible sight and she went down in about five minutes and, see all its petrol was in five gallon drums on the upper deck and of course they all went off and then the heat exploded all the rest of it and the whole sea was covered in flames, as far as you could see. It really was an inferno and I had said to the lads that as long as there was a merchant ship afloat, we were going to stay with it, we weren't going to have any PQ17 stuff on this convoy, and I reckoned, that by going into the flames, I was sort of redeeming myself for the terrible leaving of the merchant ships in PQ17. So we dived into the flames. It was an extraordinary experience for the whole sea was on fire. What struck me so much was the heat, it was terrific. I was leaning over the side looking for survivors and I was holding on to my beard because I was frightened it would catch on fire. So we went in and started picking up survivors and the boys were absolutely marvellous. They put a rope around themselves and over the side they went.. . .we finally joined up with the convoy and the coxswain, who was steering the ship was one deck below me, he had a porthole in front and he said "There's a man over there in the flames Sir". I said "Coxswain, all I can see are flames and smoke", I didn't want to go back again. He said "No I saw him move his arm Sir". "Alright we will go and get him", and this was John Jackson who was the Wireless Officer of the Waimarama, who was the only officer survivor of that ship. He couldn't swim and he was on a sort of large bit of wood, so I put the ship right alongside him and he came up the netting..." "...I WAS HOLDING ON TO MY BEARD BECAUSE I WAS FRIGHTENED IT WOULD CATCH ON FIRE..." and his crew were jumping into the sea to rescue men. Think about that for a second.

[@waratahdavid696]

The Ledbury story always brings a tear to my eyes. Guts and class.

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello ! Thanks Tom for your comment from ex-USSR ! Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический'.(since 1972; about PQ-17). Good luck !

[@hemanag1020]

Great yarn man, freakin amazing. From a fellow kiwi. (Timaru)

[@Almond19912]

I'm glad you've covered this, I knew of the tale from a Clarkson special but never fully understood sir Dudley Pound's dilemma, figuring it to be a completely unnecessary decision. Knowing the full context of the stretched British navy makes the decision more understandable, whilst still completely unacceptable, you should never abandon a convoy like that.

[@shathriel]

I think Pound was mortally ill with a brain tumour? I remember reading somewhere that his decisions started to become erratic and he resigned and died from his illness.

[@KuK137]

@Roughman Which was stupid because pretty much every single new british battleship was superior to it, 10 heavier guns to Tirpitz 8, and much better armor...

[@Historyfan476AD]

@@KuK137 yeah but Britain's top of the line battleships where not in the area.

[@MrBenaud]

Agreed. The additional context is really helpful. Clarkson's documentary was good, but I remember worrying about the very negative depiction of Pound. It seemed like there must be more to the story that Clarkson was omitting for dramatic effect, and this has confirmed my impression. Still clearly the wrong call by Pound, but more understandable.

[@gimmethegepgun]

@Roughman Tirpitz was a fast battleship, not a pocket battleship. The 3 pocket battleships were Deutchland (later Lützow), Admiral Scheer, and Admiral Graf Spee.

[@shathriel]

These convoys were amazingly dangerous, with threats from the air, surface and from beneath the waves and then you had the elements, the spray would freeze the decks and cause weapon malfunctions with severe storms thrown in. The cruisers Trinidad and Edinburgh were both lost at a time when they were sorely needed, Edinburgh took a fair bit of damage and went down with a lot of gold on board. Still, one of the most decisive convoy battles of the war took place along these routes, JW51b leading to the Battle of the Barents sea, later to be followed by the JW55b and the Battle of the North Cape.

[@andro7862]

A model of Edinburgh is kept in the St Petersburg naval museum as a tribute to their efforts to keep the USSR fighting.

[@kmstirpitz4285]

*Tirpitz aka me:* "I've become so scary that I can psychologically sink convoys without even sinking them myself! 🙂🙂" *British:* 😡😡😡

[@adrianbooth438]

That is precisely the concept of a "fleet in being"

[@bkjeong4302]

Which really shows how dumb BOTH sides of WWII were about the effectiveness of their and enemy battleships....

[@scottyfox6376]

@@bkjeong4302 I'm not sure why "they were so dumb tbh". I know that I'd rather be somewhere else as a merchant marine if the Tirpitz showed up for a drive by on my convoy. 15 ins shells seems rather intimidating to deal with in a freezing hostile northern sea route.

[@lairdcummings9092]

The German battleships loomed excessively large in British Admiralty's mind. They became great huge Boogeymen that terrified the Sea Lords entirely out of proportion to their numbers or capabilities. I often wonder at the mindset of the Sea Lords, that the paper tigers of the German High Fleet so made them wet their trousers.

[@Historyfan476AD]

@@lairdcummings9092 it is the fact such ships like this getting into a merchant convoy is a nightmare scenario for the allies. I mean king George class ships could kill tirpitz if given the chance, but the problem is that well to many convoys to protect with capital ships of the calibre needed to kill a enemy battleship. the Germans only have to sail into the right convoy.

[@lovelessissimo]

Long term, I think attacking Pearl Harbor was probably the worst naval decision of ww2.

[@gerrynightingale9045]

*That was a political decision more than any 'Military' miscalculation* *Yamamoto had warned the War Ministry "Based on available stockpiles, especially of oil, we can maintain an offensive position for no more than six-months...anything longer and we will be fighting a war of attrition as losses cannot be replaced readily"* *The key error, militarily, was in failing to invade the Hawaiian Islands after the destruction of the American warship fleet, but it was felt to be 'too provocative' of the American people and that any 'Armistice' would then fall on deaf-ears* ____________ *The entire point of Japan's 'attack & occupy' strategy was a means of 'preserving Japan's survival as a modern Nation rather than a 'beggar State dependent on the Western Powers'*

[@jessISaRicePrincess]

​@@gerrynightingale9045it only delayed the inevitable imperial japan had slim chance of winning the war especially with the sucker punch move they did in pearl harbor

[@thomaskositzki9424]

Just 153 mariners died? Wow, they were lucky, considering they lost 23 ships with an average crew of 50-70 men in artic waters. It might be warmer in summer but still far from what humans can survive for any period of time. Great short-documentary, BTW! :D

[@alphaxalex1634]

4:05 *insert Titanic meme here*

[@2Links]

I believe this illustrates the importance of Ultra for the Allies

[@looinrims]

More like it illustrates how this entire war…wasn’t a fair fight, in the words of Karl Donitz: “The enemy knows all of our secrets, and we know none of his.” The British remain pathetic

[@looinrims]

@JZ's Best Friend also that makes 0 fucking sense Recon isn’t ‘secrets’, so whoever alleges that either needs some context or a lot of proof Especially when it’s in 1943, the year the uboats got oof’d hard, because….they knew their secrets yes thank you good job

[@KP3droflxp]

@@looinrims Dude, war is never fair. The whole point of a war is to win by any means necessary, otherwise you wouldn't be at war.

[@looinrims]

@@KP3droflxp someone didn’t read everything, read first then comment

[@ld8341]

@@looinrims "The British remain pathetic". That's a tad rich given the US habit of losing wars despite massive imbalances of resource in their favour. They even managed to thoroughly stuff up their part in the u-boat war through willful ignorance of modern tactics and intelligence. But let's not knock good ol' Uncle Sam, because that would be pathetic.

[@Darkestestmatter]

Nobody: Nothing at all. HMS Trinidad: I'mma gonna do what's called a pro gamer move. ... HMS Trinidad: * Torpedoes itself* ... HMS Trinidad: *surprised Pikachu face*

[@swoo6979]

US Submariners: First time?

[@davidvasquez08]

*Laughs in Mark 14 Torpedo*

[@Darkestestmatter]

Your tears taste delicious

[@philiphumphrey1548]

Excellent documentary. One slight point, according to commander Broome's book "Convoy is to Scatter", he wasn't ordered to join the cruiser force, he wasn't given any orders at all other than scatter the convoy. But seeing the cruiser force withdrawing westward and assuming they were going to fight the Tirpitz just over the horizon, he asked Hamilton permission to join his squadron, as his destroyers had torpedoes and would have been at least a distraction for the Tirpitz. Hamilton approved the request.

[@artful1967]

one of my favourite comments was from the captain of the Destroyer HMS Kepple who upon recieving a signal from a RN Submarine saying " If we encounter the Tirpitz it is my intension to remain on the surface" replied " that is my intension also"

[@tinnakornwantae6763]

HMS Trinidad: *launch torpedo* Torpedo: *turn back to HMS Trinidad* HMS Trinidad: YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE *scream in British Engineering*

[@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire]

.......Oh bugger.......

[@seanbruce8294]

Looks like they received American torpedos.

[@davidvasquez08]

Sean Bruce lol The infamous Mk 14 torpedo

[@wilsthelimit]

Tinnakorn Wantae US Navy: Been there before buddy

[@NovaKrysalis]

Once launched, and sometimes even if not, Mr. Torpedo is not your friend. He's more like the emotionally unstable "friend" that will shank you in the night, given half a chance. There's a good reason most IJN cruisers simply dumped their Long Lances before going into a surface engagement.

[@xeraphyx7903]

I think the biggest surprise to me was HMS Trinidad accidentally torpedoing herself in an engagement, like I get how the science works, but the idea of a ship torpedoing themselves is still kinda funny. 3:16

[@zigfisher6592]

It was the first successful test of a HOMING torpedo.

[@thejudge-kv2jk]

My granddad was a merchant seamen, did the Atlantic convoys and was sunk - but amazingly survived. Sadly I never got to meet him though as he died before I was born :(

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello ! Thanks for your grandfather and other seamans convoys from ex-USSR ! Now I am live in the Arkhangelsk region. Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический'.( since 1972; about PQ-17). Good luck ! 👋

[@clamum]

Watching that new movie Greyhound has given me even more respect for the people who took part in these convoys. I realize that's a fictional movie but still. Ba-ba-ba-balls-ba-balls-balls of steel

[@doomguy.23frommars60]

Not fictional because everything in it historically accurate so can say "historically inspired story" it just shows the everyday life of a convoy and artic convoys were worse

[@sztypettto]

Shouldn't have gone to war with Germany. Would have saved plenty of lives and heartache.

[@justinebautista1383]

@@sztypettto its not like they had a choice

[@sztypettto]

@@justinebautista1383 - they did. Foreign Minister Ribbentrop and several others gave Britain a choice to the point that they could keep their Empire intact. Churchill and several others were arrogant. This arrogance wasn't only witnessed in their struggle against the Germans, but also in dealings with the US. In the eyes of Churchill, submitting to the US was a lesser evil. On the other hand the Soviets had no choice.

[@justinebautista1383]

@@sztypettto Germany would have still pushed through attacking Britain anyway whatever happens so yes his choices was minimal and understandable

[@northerncaptain855]

My grandfather and uncle were both Merchant Mariners forced to abandon ship in the War of the Atlantic. After a long career I’m about to retire from the same line of work.

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello ! Thanks for your grandfather and uncle from ex-USSR ! Now I am live in the Arkhangelsk region . Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический'.(since 1972; about PQ-17). In the Arkhangelsk and in the Murmansk there are monuments to the northern convoys. Good luck ! 👋

[@davidostashkov7752]

The sunk soviet destroyer mentioned at 2:55 was actually a barely armed steamship carrying wood, its name was ijora, not iLjora. It was built in 1921 in Britain and bought and renamed by the USSR in 1934. Originally it was called Windermere. Edit: It was actually sunk on the 7th of March, not on the 3rd.

[@thundershirt1]

There you go: renaming ships is dreadful bad luck. Do you know any women who would put up with it?

[@Geckobane]

I watch documentaries for two main reasons: to learn new things and to help organize my mind into a peaceful state to help me fall asleep. This one satisfies both of those competing criteria. Well done.

[@aconnagan3680]

I'm the same way

[@KiraNear777]

Me too, sleeping has been hard for me lately. So I watch docs every day to help. Works everytime. I also learn a lot. Win-Win situation.

[@jamesbugbee6812]

I'm not sleepy when infuriated.

[@baldbread3693]

Why go to curiosity stream, we got high quality documentries right here

[@recklessroges]

There's a lot more and it supports this excellent channel.

[@EricDKaufman]

Curiosity Stream probably supports its content creations with fair pay and an algorithm free work place

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

Curiosity stream has no commercials, and directly supports content creators. They also coöperate with Nebula, wich was started by several creators themselves if i am correct. Also, you can name the German airforce by its correct name without having your post removed for example.

[@baldbread3693]

@@sjonnieplayfull5859 ik, jus trying to be nice

[@sjonnieplayfull5859]

@@baldbread3693 right, got it now. Sorry fam. Here, take my like

[@user-vo8ss2bm3p]

At the beginning (7:00) it was told how many tanks, trucks and aircraft were on the convoy, but at the end it was never told, how many made it (or have been sunk) for comparison. Slightly illogical and frustrating.

[@Eric_Gonzo]

Your breakdowns are the best. Always excited when a new video of yours pops up.

[@h1017412]

I've long thought that the men of the Merchant Navy are the true unsung heroes of any war.

[@historigraph]

definitely

[@acmrctrains7157]

@@historigraph sister in law her dad was one of them and survived the war sailed to russia the med and a few more places wish i had seen the=is a couple of years ago when he was still alive

[@imgvillasrc1608]

I'd say all of them are, be it grunts or pogs. Everyone's got a role to fulfill, the one that lags behind is gonna trouble the rest of the force. Just like the human body, it cannot function properly if one organ fails to do its job.

[@theodisius1]

What an excellent video - you presented so much detail but so clearly and without me losing the big picture. I'd heard about the Arctic convoys but did not know any particulars, so I learnt a lot. The script, verbal delivery and graphics were all models of clarity. Thank you! Subscribed!

[@erickam6733]

Fun fact one escort ship saved 3 other ships when they became stuck in ice by bringing a cargo of tanks on deck of one of the ships, painting them the same colors as the deck and the ice around them as camouflage and used the tanks to dissuade German attackers.

[@andro7862]

Yeah they actually went north on purpose. It's also worth noting that they were led by a pleasure boat captain with 0 military experience. And they made it to Arhangelsk.

[@battlefield_hackers_exposed]

Is there some more information on that account? Are the people involved known by name? Would like to read more about that. Edit: I found one source stating, that they camouflaged the ships themselves among the ice, not tanks. No other information on the tank-part: "During the height of the attacks on July 5, the armed trawler Ayrshire made a desperate move. Serving as escort for Silver Sword, Ironclad and Troubadour, she led them in a mad dash directly into the ice barrier. Once anchored, the ships’ crews hurriedly painted their superstructures white to camouflage the vessels. Then, moving slowly along the ice edge and skirting the eastern extremes of the Barents Sea, the four ships eventually made for port." www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-convoy-pq-17.htm

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

There are some flaws in what you write a) HMS Ayrshire was not a merchant but an ASW trawler. b) They made some deck cargo tanks ready for morale purpose, but they NEVER fired a shot. c) This ad-hoc defence was meant against surfaced U-boats, not against aircraft. Tell me how you would aim a tank gun at an aircraft ? e) They were never detected, otherwise they would have been sunk by Ju-88 dive bombers.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

@@andro7862 The commanding officer (Royal Navy reserve) on HMS Ayrshire indeed had no fighting experience. What strikes me most is that he navigated by an old school atlas since for some reason they had no proper sea map aboard.

[@erickam6733]

@@ottovonbismarck2443 This is true from the Wikipedia page, I remember reading or hearing somewhere that they used the tanks to dissuade any attackers, thanks for the clarification! its still an awesome story of ingenuity in the face of extreme danger!

[@alexbeedle3074]

>torpedo's itself

[@Psytinker]

It hurt itself in its confusion!

[@jfan4reva]

Not the only ship to do that. There were some U.S. submarines that suffered that same fate. Possibly due to bad American torpedoes using a design that had never been properly tested before the war, but that's an entire story by itself.

[@zintosion]

Love your content, always love naval history and naval battle. I hope you keep making more.

[@pot8552]

this video was a huge help on my school project about Tirpitz. great work 👍

[@Nintendonicke]

HMS Trinidad: I roll for a torpedo attack. *rolls 1* DM: Ok, you hit yourself HMS Trinidad: What?

[@alphaxalex1634]

Nobody: Arctic convoys when they hear ‘Titpitz is out of port’ : *lets split up gang!*

[@luxembourgishempire2826]

Nobody: You: *Let's continue this boring unoriginal meme.*

[@alphaxalex1634]

Luxembourgish Empire sorry boomer

[@theofficialsikris]

@@luxembourgishempire2826 Nobody: Luxembourg: "Let's be an asshole while the entirety of our nation has less than a million people, and is also between two countries that are famous for going to war with each other."

[@theblackprince1346]

My grandad was on the Arctic convoys, thank you for uploading.

[@s208richard8]

So was mine, Merchant Navy. I still have his log books, and his gunnery certificate, with pencilled-in notes of the lead distances when shooting at the different planes, e.g. FW200 Condor, Ju87 Stuka. Then went on to do the Asian run to India and the East. 'Voyages' listed in his log as OHMS - On His Majesty's Service! Survived the war, final rank as a Captain. One of my favourite books was HMS Ulysses by Alistair MacLean, roughly based on the Dido-class cruisers, a fictional account on one of these convoys.

[@theblackprince1346]

@@s208richard8 wow thanks for sharing. My grandad was in the royal navy, don't know the ships he was on but I do know he was a wireless operator.

[@HiddenPrior]

I love this channel, so glad to see you making videos again.

[@historigraph]

Something that amuses me is that I get comments like this after every upload but... I didn't go anywhere. This is just my normal upload frequency

[@bassbatterer]

My great grandfather was in the merchant navy during the war and his ship was sunk. He was stranded in the sea for hours before rescue. This video makes me wonder which convoy, when and how his ship was sunk.

[@pyrrhusinvictus6186]

*July 4th* Americans: "Happy Treason Day!!!" British: "Bro....really?"

[@darthmalyn3231]

It's not treason if you win.

[@sztypettto]

Well technically the Americans made the British agree to crippling agreements as a precondition to entering the war on the allied side. Part of the reason was that the British Empire had a habit of being an international asshole for the past couple hundred years. By the Second World War, with its tail between it's legs, the US wanted to really be the asshole to the asshole. But much of the propaganda and guidelines recommended Americans to get along with the British without giving the Germans reason to exploit any ounce of animosity.

[@RandomboiSam]

Last time I was this early, I...... Help I can't think of a good joke

[@AlteryxGaming]

H.M.S. Trinidad

[@Almond19912]

Last time I was this early pq17 still had an escort

[@markkim7348]

Last time I was this early tirpitz still had her sister ship

[@Almond19912]

@@markkim7348 last time I was this early tirpitz had a dock on the Atlantic coast

[@hellothere5843]

@@Almond19912 last time I was this early Graf Spee was still operational

[@micahistory]

you're the only naval history channel that i actually like

[@donduke5242]

My father toke part in that .. His ship was sunk and he was later rescued . He was one of the lucky ones. spent 3 mouths in Russia before he was sent by train from Moscow down to India to sail around Africa .

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello ! Thanks for your father and other seamans from ex-USSR ! Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический' (since 1972; about PQ-17). We remember for heroes convoys. In the Murmansk and in the Arkhangelsk there are monuments to the northern convoys. Good luck ! 👋

[@zee7056]

Love your content, keep it coming!

[@dioshin6530]

Your narration makes the story 100x more immersive.

[@hastalavictoriasiempre2730]

it is always the live word that will win not fancy graphics, sure they help but if man is poor in narrative it is fruitless

[@michaeldecler7051]

Love love your video's! Keep up the awesome work!

[@buonafortuna8928]

Thank you. Chilling stuff. Just subbed

[@theunforgiven9641]

My Great Grandfather was aboard the HMS Maryalin part of the convoy that scattered. He was a communication specialist and had to get out of his cabin to shoot down two Stukas that we're strafing by with a AA gun mounted at the Bow. Didn't receive a medal from the British government and only 10 years ago received a medal from Russia for his actions.

[@rosiehawtrey]

Then either he or you need to apply from an Arctic Star from the UK government.

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello ! Thanks for your great grandfather and other seamans convoys from ex-USSR ! Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический'(since 1972; about PQ-17). We remember for heroes convoys. In the Murmansk and in the Arkhangelsk there are monuments to the northern convoys. Good luck ! 👋

[@ilikelampshades6]

This is a perfect example of how stragically Important the Tirpitz was. One of the most successful battleships in history without ever firing a shot!

[@looinrims]

Eh would’ve been better if 20-40 Uboats or whatever it’s equivalent in Uboat would be were made instead

[@ilikelampshades6]

@@looinrims No it wouldn't because the escorts could deal with uboats easily so nothing would change other than more casualties on both sides.

[@looinrims]

35627819028353729-4984653 no, there’d be no escorts As Donitz opined after the war “had I 300 uboats in 1939 I would’ve destroyed the Royal Navy” but they made some pocket battleships that got destroyed near instantly

[@ilikelampshades6]

@@looinrims Thr Royal Navy destroyed nearly every U-boat ever made. Without threats such as the German Surface Fleet the Royal Navy would have more resources to anti submarine warfare. In no circumstance could the German Navy ever defeat the Royal Navy. Germany could not match British manufacturing, bases, size.

[@ilikelampshades6]

@@looinrims Besides the hypothetical scenario was that 20-40 Uboats would have been better but in reality it would not have impacted on British strategy as much as a battleship.

[@micahistory]

it's always a great day when you upload

[@micahistory]

i always learn so much new watching these videos

[@randomlyentertaining8287]

So basically the Allies went "Well Tirpitz might blow up half the convoy. So let's ensure 2/3 of it gets blown up trying to prevent that."

[@TTTT-oc4eb]

The value of the cargo on PQ17 (without the ships) was 700,000,000 dollars - 10 times the cost price of Tirpitz.

[@ramal5708]

Tirpitz doesn't even have to show up to cause havoc in the convoy, I wish I could be like Tirpitz.

[@Murrel.]

The music gets me every time

[@mykofreder1682]

Lack of British aircraft carriers is clear, they could have stationed a carrier group maybe 100 miles north west of the convoy, out of range of Norway air strips. Then flow search and cap during the day, they would have shot down many of the long-range attack planes and found and attacked any battleships that got into range of their air groups.

[@Lixn1337]

Alten is the old name of Alta, and therefore it should be called The Altafjord. Great video as always:)

[@kalanmccowan2153]

Always look forward to your vids

[@meowmiator4875]

The legend is back

[@alphaxalex1634]

After watching this I now believe that HMS Trinadas fire control crew is lead by Gunners mate Phillip asshole from spaceballs.

[@contactohn7982]

Last night I saw the movie Greyhound, with Tom Hanks. It is about a convoy escort against U boats. It is very detailed and intense. It had me sweating...

[@fredhoupt4078]

Well done. Such a grim part of the War of the Atlantic.

[@KingGeorgeV1914]

you should cover The Battle At The Falkland Islands WW1, and The Battle of Midway. I think that would be amazing. I Love these vids great job!

[@johnpatz8395]

Is there a breakdown anywhere, showing just how amount of various resources that were lost on ships sunk in the various theaters of war during WW2? I’m not talking about ship loses, as I’ve seen those stats in numerous places, but instead on the cargo lost on those ships, for example X numbers of tanks, Y combat aircraft, Z tons of ammunition, X1 tons of food stuffs and Y1 tons of raw or partially refined materials such as ore, steel, etc…? I ask this as it’s always surprising how many supplies various convoys, which end up being obliterated, we’re carrying, and I’m curious to see a comparisons of say, the number of tanks lost in ground combat vs those that went down on cargo ships as they were being transported to and from various ports. Another thing that always amazes me upon reading, watching videos of, various battles and events, such as this convoy, the the string of almost comedic errors, and unlucky coincidence, on either or both sides, for example in this case so many German vessels running a ground, being unable to decode German naval codes during the crucial 24 hours, and the British cruiser group’s confidence, despite the convoy already having suffered considerable losses, from a few relatively small attacks. I mean I would expect such high losses, from two small waves of aircraft, in a location and at a period of time that allowed air attacks to take pace 24 hours a day, would have been seen as ominous, but instead they were viewed exactly the opposite. I mean sure, they shot-down a few aircraft, but for each aircraft shot down they were losing a cargo ship fully loaded fully loaded with war materials, which is in no way a reasonable exchange.

[@grandengineernathan]

Tirpitz: exists British admiral: starts panicking in tea and biscuits

[@GuardianofKH]

More like Tirpitz: Taking the day off with tea and biscuits British admiral: Existential crisis. It's the Teaparty all over again. RUN!

[@Cerberus0076]

One can only imagine that "wtf"Moment,the crew of TRINIDAD had, realized they just torpedoed themselves. Very tragic case of "friendly fire"

[@beigethursday1352]

Brilliant video 👍🏻

[@netrolancer1061]

What a total devastation of convoy PQ17.

[@Lazbotable]

Jeremy Clarkson did a documentary about this convoy almost a decade ago, it features first hand accounts from people who were there at the time.

[@sergiyivanov4619]

Hello from ex-USSR ! Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический' (since 1972; about PQ-17). In the Murmansk and in the Arkhangelsk there are monuments to the northern convoys.

[@ApprenticeGM]

What an awful failure of senior Admiralty command in London. So much devastation that could have been avoided. So easy for u-boats to pick off slow merchant ships without escorts, they could close to close range and ensure every torpedo counted, and no retribution . . .

[@lairdcummings9092]

Good, detailed analysis.

[@beachboy0505]

Be fair, how many theatres of War do you want the Royal Navy to control? North Sea, Channel, Mediterranean, North Atlantic, South Atlantic, Indian Ocean, and the Arctic Sea as well If the Russians were so clever and brave, why didn't the Russian navy come halfway and fetch the supply ships?

[@rextucker3184]

A merchant ship having successfully ran the gauntlet was entering the Russian harbor when a Scottish sailor on one of the ships sounded a cheer to the men on the docks. But all the dockmen were silent. There was no reply. The Scotsman then shouted a curse at them for the total lack of caring for men who had risked their lives to bring aid to Russia. What he did not know was these men had been taken from their homes by force and made to work for the Russians on these docks and under terrible conditions. They were conscripted. They hated Russia most of all.

[@tutupre]

Hi love ur vids keep up the good work

[@indianhacker9062]

Please do another siege video. I loved the Hungarian one.

[@Dcook85]

"We might encounter an enemy ship, ALL ESCORTS ABANDON THE CONVOY!"

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

Actually, 'All escorts with torpedoes join the cruiser squadron in order to engage a powerful German battle squadron.'

[@j.chiari4222]

Yaaay, you're back

[@loveofmangos001]

Great video. New to the channel. Wasn't the German Battleship Scharnhorst lured out and sunk by an Artic Convey later in the war?

[@sander6438]

Scharnhorst was sunk at battle if northcape on 26 december 1943

[@grendelgrendelsson5493]

My Uncle Jack was a gunner aboard HMS Belfast in the Battle of the North Cape where Scharnhorst was sunk.

[@sergiyivanov4619]

@@grendelgrendelsson5493 Your uncle Jack heroic seamans ! Thanks for him from ex-USSR ! We remember for heroes convoys . Look Soviet film 'Семнадцатый трансатлантический'(since 1972; about PQ-17). In the Murmansk and in the Arkhangelsk there are monuments to the northern convoys. Good luck! 👋

[@creanero]

It does seem like Tovey could almost have made the inverse decision. "Tirpitz is out, we have Washington and Duke of York there, lets end the threat of the 'Fleet-in-being' by using the convoy as bait."

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

The decision to scatter the convoy had nothing to do with Tovey, or Hamilton or Broome for that matter. It came direct from the Admiralty, and was based, as far as anyone on the spot knew, on up-to-date intelligence.

[@mikearmstrong8483]

@@dovetonsturdee7033 You are correct as to the source of the order, but his point was still valid. The admiralty or Pound could have decided to let Tirpitz try to attack the convoy, to get rid of it. 19 big guns against 8 (size difference not being that significant) would have made short work of it, and it is surprising to me that the opportunity didn't seem to occur to those at the highest level.

[@Ah01]

Uss Washington alone would have blown Tirpitz out of water, outgunning it by a long mile: all the more with hms Duke of York, which was at that time much more lethal with it`s gunnery than the sister POW against Bismarck.

[@creanero]

@@Ah01 maybe, but why fight anything like a fair fight when an unfair fight in your favour is an option.

[@Ah01]

@@creanero Would have been pretty much unfair with both Washington and Duke of York, and could have been useful to get rid of a nuisance, fleet (more like a ship) in being that tied allied escort resources. And, scattering the convoy surely wasn’t Royal Navy’s finest hour.

[@richardcleveland8549]

Another superb documentary! I recall mention of PQ17 in the film about Alan Turing, although (if I remember correctly), there was some altering of facts to fit the movie. None of that here, though! Good work! "Steady, buys, steady!"

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

I think that was SC122, HX229, & HX229A.

[@richardcleveland8549]

@@dovetonsturdee7033 Many thanks.

[@frenstcht]

"Tovey, this is your chance to sink the Turpitz, so you better run away like your hair is on fire."

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

Tovey's distant covering force was nowhere near close enough to intercept the Tirpitz force.

[@frenstcht]

@@dovetonsturdee7033 Thanks!

[@benwilson6145]

The reason that the Nazi's knew about PQ 17 was the Finns had broken the Russian Code. They gave the information to the Nazi's.

[@finntastique3891]

Yep, our signals intelligence staff really knew their job.

[@kriley9386]

The Finns were at war with the Russians, not the Germans. If the war materiel got thru to Arkhangelsk, then it might have been used against them. The Finns were caught in a bad spot for all of WW2.

[@EenNoorderling]

Your stuff is great, I’d love to see a video on the Falklands war

[@historigraph]

possible in future

[@christianhaupt2637]

I second this!

[@medievalknyght313]

Finally some good videos.

[@jakenahmmacher-baum3413]

Loved the video! but at 5:49 you describe the PQ16 merchant fleet as being a group of 35 merchant ships, while the graphics says 36. not sure if I'm the first one to point this out.

[@rtsgod]

what were the anti-aircraft ships? there were only 2 so that means they were very specialized. Was it like an outfitted destroyer with the main canons removed and replaced with flak cannons along with some bolted on machine gun platforms?

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

In the case of PQ17 Palomares & Pozarica were fast fruit carriers, owned by the MacAndrews Line, and used between Britain & Spain. Both ships were fast (for merchantmen), at 13.5 knots, displaced just under 2000 tons, and were quite manoeuvrable. In 1941, they were two (of nine) similar vessels selected by the Admiralty for conversion into AA Ships. These two were fitted with 4 x twin 4 inch guns, and 2 x 4 barrelled pom poms, which gave them more or less the same AA capabilities as a modern Town or Colony class kight cruiser. Later in the war, they were further converted into fighter direction ships

[@benwilson6145]

The next convoy PQ18 is an interesting story.

[@ethan5719]

Missed these

[@antonyduhamel1166]

For all that Tirpitz didn't have much of a glorious service history, it's a testament to just how powerful she truly was that even the threat of her leaving port caused something like PQ17 to happen. Tirpitz and Bismarck weren't feared because of how mighty they were compared to British battleships, they were feared because they were as mighty as they were while also being FAST, making them incredibly dangerous if they ever intercepted a merchant convoy. It's honestly a goddamned miracle that neither ship ever did. Even the losses of PQ17 would have been comparatively minor in comparison to one of those behemoths springing an ambush on an unprepared convoy.

[@bkjeong4302]

Not really. Using battleships as merchant raiders (even those fast enough to make a getaway before enemy units could respond) is a strategically stupid idea. Battleships are a very expensive investment, so they’re not something you build to do supporting roles (especially because other options already exist for those roles). They’re something you build as the main killing power and force projection to be used against enemy battleships. The Bismarcks were actually intended to counter the French Richelieu-class (and somehow ended up being inferior designs despite being 5,000 tons larger-similar speed and firepower but much worse armour protection). But France fell before either the German or French vessels were even completed (and of course, by WWII battleships were obsolete anyways), and the Kriegsmarine repurposed their two biggest naval assets to raiding purposes.

[@indianhacker9062]

7:26 He says 4 cruisers and 4 destroyers yet the pictures says 3 destroyers and 4 cruisers

[@Jackilichous]

Literally unwatchable

[@Geckobane]

LOL c'mon now

[@lefrenchaudir188]

4th one is m class