What if the Netherlands Invaded Germany After World War 2?

[@possiblehistory]

As a completely unbiased person I think this plan sounds completely fair and smart, and not at all like a total disaster waiting to happen - likely to cripple the Netherlands significantly and set back European integration in those crucial early years of the post-war world! (Goede video, blij dat iemand deze alternate history eindelijk gemaakt heeft!)

[@cyancat8633]

Dutch alternative histroy man appeared when Will everything go Italy way?

[@ThePikminCaptain]

Dutchman

[@batlover64]

Least high Dutch person:

[@noeh7554]

Zou jij ook zo'n video kunnen maken?

[@CliffThePerson]

I think that what if everything went perfect for the Netherlands would be a great and totally not biased video.

[@ReaperCH90]

Netherlands: "Pay us back in land for the suffering you have brought upon us while we fight our colonies' independence movements."

[@rey_nemaattori]

I doubt the Dutch be able to commit on a two front war and win either. They'd either have to go for annexation or Indonesia. Maybe if they played their cards right they could've negotiated relinquishing the Indies in exchange for some of the industrial heartland with the Americans, as they vehemently opposed colonization, but needed the Rhineland industry to counter the soviet threat. Whether that's under a West-German or Dutch banner is pretty irrelevant, as both nations would fall under the American sphere.

[@keerf255]

Yeah, the Germans literally hold Dutch ancestral lands (Kleves region, Ostfriesland was gone already like Southwest Flanders). The Indonesian nationalists were massacring mulattos and spreading terror. My great aunt suffered in the jap camps, then the indo nationalists took over and were even more brutal. It was absolutely a policing action and it was absolutely justified. The issue was the Americans won the war, and so died European independence.

[@DeutschlandDenDeutschen1848]

- Brits dissolving Austria-Hungary while rulling one quarter of the Earth

[@C.B_Lover_W]

​@@DeutschlandDenDeutschen1848 same for every entente member ig

[@DeutschlandDenDeutschen1848]

@@C.B_Lover_W France around 9% and the SU around 15%. 3 Countries rulling half of the world.

[@nemrahofficial]

Netherlands: ‘Let’s go boyssssss’ Rest of world: ‘you can keep the pancake restaurant and that’s the end of it’ Netherlands; DEAL 👍

[@ouwebrood497]

Very beautiful spot though.

[@GullibleTarget]

The dutch will always try to get something out of anything. Kinda like:"well...we can just ask for it? I mean the allied forces have all this administrative control...Maybe if we really put on the waterworks they will feel sorry for us and-...They said no? Oh well, never be afraid to ask.

[@nemrahofficial]

@@ouwebrood497 absolutely ! I love it

[@thedemongodvlogs7671]

Actually around Aachen and the Niederrhein, where my grandparents came from, the dialects traditionally spoken (such as my Grandparents' Krieewelsch from Krefeld - or Kreewel in dialect/platt) are not Low Saxon, rather they are actually much closer to Limbourgish and Dutch. Low Saxon tends to be spoken further north. The confusion often comes from the fact that both dialect families can colloquially be called "platt", but in this instance, it's just a term meaning local dialect. As a tidbit, my grandparents could both mostly understand Dutch and often went on trips across the border (c. 1920s). I am told that the dialect spoken in Venlo for instance, was very close to theirs!!

[@Kholdaimon]

Low Saxon is very similar to eastern dialects of Dutch. We had a couple of students from the university of Oldenburg join us for an ecology course at the university of Groningen and the language of their parents (living in Ostfriesland) was really, really similar to the Groninger dialect of Dutch. The students could understand what we were saying in Dutch within a week and one of them called his dad and told him to talk to me, and it was like talking to a Groninger farmer. And I know the same is true just over the border of Twente, the Germans there speak a slightly different version of Twents. So Germans that spoke Low Saxon would have no difficulty at all to learn the local dialects of Dutch (since they would basically be speaking them already) and would learn normal Dutch extremely fast, like within a week or two of constant exposure...

[@rey_nemaattori]

There's not a singular Low-Saxon though, rather it's a continuum from Flemish Low-Frankish in Flanders across the Netherlands(Hollandish Low-Frankish) over the north of Germany all the way yo the Polish border (Westphalish, North Low-Saxon, Eastphalish to Markish & Pommerish). If anything, it just shows modern borders are just overlaid on top of a continuum of dialects, creating harder cutoffs as years progress. Some 2-300 years ago, someone from Flanders would be able to travel from the North Sea coast to Königsberg as still be able to somehwat understand the locals, although less and less as distance progresses.

[@ansibarius4633]

@@rey_nemaattori " 'n aap is hei!", old Buddenbrook said when commenting on his grandson in a novel by Thomas Mann, otherwise written in standard German. And although he spoke Low German of the old Saxon language area, this particular sentence is indistinguishable from standard Dutch. Such an odd phenomenon, given the fact that many of us tend to identify Germany and its language with the standard High German version that we learned at school by default. Behind those national borders there is/was much more internal diversity, and, from a Dutch perspective, recognizability, than we realized.

[@DeutschlandDenDeutschen1848]

@@Kholdaimon The Groningen dialect IS Low Saxon (Nedersaksisch). Standard Dutch is Low Franconian (Nederfrankisch).

[@thedemongodvlogs7671]

@Kholdaimon Yes it is! However, Niederrheinisch (Krefeld, Düsseldorf, Kleve etc.) is different. It's an extension of Limbourgish! It's also very similar to southern/south eastern Dutch.

[@Brabantian]

Predicting full dutchification after inevitable successful conquest in 2 months

[@LetsTakeWalk]

Netherlands: "G E K O L O N I S E..." USA: "NO" Netherlands: Maar.. USA: Still NO" Netherlands: "He, wat jammer."

[@Seyone030]

kinda funny how that makes america a united enemie of germany and the netherlands😂😂

[@GullibleTarget]

​@@Seyone030funnier is that the US and Germany are the Netherlands' best 'friends' on the world stage. Even moreso than the Brits!

[@saba1030]

​@@Seyone030 Even more funny = the Dutch and German armies are fully merged since 2023, this project started already in 1995 😁

[@Novusod]

The Bakker-Schut plan was tied to the Morgenthau plan. The Morgenthau plan called for dividing Germany up among the allied powers so the country of Germany would cease to exist after the war. FDR supported the Morgenthau plan while Truman did not. When FDR died the Morgenthau plan died with him and thus ended any serious possibility that the Bakker-Schut plan could be implemented.

[@a61374]

If the Dutch invades Germany, US would attack the Netherlands

[@TheDanEdwards]

Notice how self-determination was left off the menu.

[@Eltipoquevisteayer]

Self determination is one of these things to be praised, but never truly practiced.

[@RH-ro3sg]

Well, yeah, this was after a devastating world war with millions dead against a country that had aggressively invaded its neighbours. A country where the occupiers were still busy rooting out the nazis even after it was defeated. I don't think the victors (and/or the countries that suffered under German occupation) would have been in the mood to even remotely consider 'self-determination'.

[@EpreTroll]

Yes and why not expand south too. We need our southern brothers back and let's take the area around Calais while we're at it

[@arvidsfar1580]

How about Rijssel (Lille)?

[@tommay6590]

@@arvidsfar1580 Good idea, its aleardy the twin city of Keulen...

[@HS-su3cf]

With the higher population, you would have had the manpower to do this.

[@simonh6371]

@@arvidsfar1580 Also Duinkerken, Hazebrook, Kales and a lot more.

[@arvidsfar1580]

@@simonh6371 As we all know, it was a weird plan, right from its outset. However, when I travel to Rijssel,/Lille even the architecture looks like where I come from, in Germany. I'd like to stress how much we share, rather than anything else.

[@frenzalrhomb6919]

Hooray. Its "History With Hilbert" time!

[@harrym740]

They would probably all be riding bicycles without a helmet.

[@Hrafnskald]

It's interesting to see how a government that had only recently been liberated somehow thought it could launch a massive landgrab, over the the objections of the heavily armed Allies, with a very small military. Given how the great powers had already decided how to divide up occupation zones, and they heavily outnumbered what Dutch military forces existed in 1945, this would not have ended well for the Dutch.

[@simonh6371]

It would have had to be with consent of the main 4 allied powers. As it was there were Dutch units stationed in western Germany even until after reunification in 1990, in fact I'm not sure there aren't still any there or not.

[@Kartoffelsnacks]

​@@simonh6371 There is Dutch soldiers stationed in Germany and also German soldiers in the Netherlands. Both part of the same 1 German/Dutch Corps. Their headquarter is in Münster but they are also stationed in Eibergen and Garderen. The German navy heavily cooperates with the Dutch navy even integrating a German marine sea battalion into the Dutch marine forces and will in the future rely on Dutch sea transport capabilities. On the other hand all 3 Dutch army brigades (the entirety of the Dutch armies core fighting elements) are integrated into German divisions and are therefore under German command. (43. Mech.-Brigade - 1. Tank Division / 13. Light Brigade - 10. Tank Division / 11. Air Moblie Brigade - Rapid Forces Division) It is no exaggeration to say that the Netherlands and Germany are each other's closest military allies at the moment.

[@simonh6371]

@@Kartoffelsnacks Thanks for the informative response! I didn't know that.

[@nielsdaemen]

As a half Dutch half German, living in the border region, i'm glad the borders are where they are now!

[@MrPbhuh]

I've said it before, but yea, the bakkerschut-plan was dumb and idiotic. It should have only claimed Ostfriesland, or at least the island of borkum and control over to the ems river and over the ems estuary.

[@xXTheoLinuxXx]

For the sake of historical reasons Ostfriesland would be the most logical area. Ostfriesland and the province of Groningen are both 'Oostlauwersfries' and even today they speak almost the same dialect and share quite a bit of cultural habbits. During the 80 years war against Spain, Ostfriesland took thousands of refugues ( I believe that the population of Emden became 80% dutch) and even Ostfrisian soldiers were fighting with the Dutch against Spain. During the so called dutch disaster year (war with England, France) dutch ships were attacked by the English, so they were allowed to use another flag and their harbour was Emden ;) Before the German unification in 1871 a lot of churches in Ostfriesland were using Dutch as their language. But it worked the other way around too, royals from Ostfriesland were also royals in the province of Groningen, the Cirksena family from Greetsiel for example.

[@davidjames4915]

One other area that made some sense was the area around and including Kleve/Kleef/Cleves and Geldern since it had essentially been Dutch by language and culture without actually being in the Netherlands (though it had been under Dutch control in the past). One wonders if the Allies might have agreed to an East Friesland and Cleves/Geldern-only plan as it wouldn't have been outlandish and could be portrayed as a reasonable form of reparations.

[@toade1583]

@@xXTheoLinuxXx But East Frisia/Ostfriesland mainly speaks Low German(albeit a frisian influenced form of Low German which is also spoken in the Netherlands) and the only place that still speaks Frisian in the municipality of Saterland where 2000 people speak East Frisian.

[@homoe7976]

Speaking as an Emsländer, that would not have made sense by 1945. Maybe a 100 years earlier. People here were not the most nationalistic, but there certainly would not have been any acceptance for such a border shift.

[@xXTheoLinuxXx]

@@toade1583 I know. I'm from the province of Groningen and we speak almost the same dialect. People from Amsterdam or Munich wouldn't understand that much from it :)

[@wouter.de.ruiter]

Well, to be honest: a lot of Ost-Frisians I know, wouldn't have minded at all being Dutch. In fact they would have preferred it. They feel closer to the Dutch than to the Bayern.

[@Andre-c6z]

you say Bayern like it wasnt the other side of the country or as if it rules Germany.

[@Nishisaki405]

lol half of germany feels closer to alaska than to the bayern, what a stupid comparison.

[@VolkerGoller]

THAT is an easy one. I am in het Niederlande in 15min max from my home - by bike. Who cares about Bayern 😮

[@usakousa]

Very interesting. Love the football analysis at the end :-)

[@karpi470]

Dude, if you wanna annex us, just say so. I'm sick of subpar public transport and a lack of bicycle paths.

[@simonh6371]

Yeah but right now you can carry up to 25g of weed with you in Germany, in NL it's maximum 5g.

[@ouwebrood497]

At least you have a lot of sex workers. So you can do it.

[@whoareyouyouareclearlylost323]

​@simonh6371 What a tragedy! Where am I gonna carry my other 20gram of weed now?

[@wouter.de.ruiter]

@@simonh6371 Lol! When you're Dutch you'll learn to ignore rules you don't like and you'll simply carry as much as you want. Nobody cares.

[@remyvermunt8623]

Overigens is de schrijfwijze Mönchengladbach

[@ivarbrouwer197]

I could have seen Ost-Friesland as Dutch territory, as it would combine Friesland, Groningen and Ost Friesland as a combined region with a similar dialect all around, with some form of autonomy, dominated by similar flat countryside and islands.

[@JosBlomsma]

Cultureel gezien zou het wel aardig kloppen, volgens mij. Maar dan wil ik Hamburg er ook wel bij. Qua taal blijft Fryslân met z'n Frysk natuurlijk wel een vreemde (bijzondere) eend in de bijt, het is namelijk geen Nedersaksisch.

[@ivarbrouwer197]

@ houdt Ost-Friesland niet op bij de Weser? Anders trek je Nedersaksen en Nord-Friesland er ook nog bij… (te ambitieus?, maar qua taalgebied wellicht verdedigbaar, in een alternatieve historie had het een land op zich kunnen zijn…)

[@xXTheoLinuxXx]

@@JosBlomsma Groningers en Ostfriesen zijn beide 'Oostlauwersfries' en delen in sommige gevallen ook nog wat aan geschiedenis. In het wapen van Delfzijl stond tot 2021 nog een gedeelte die verwees naar de familie Cirksena bijvoorbeeld.

[@DeutschlandDenDeutschen1848]

@@JosBlomsma Saterland Frisians also have their East Frisian language.

[@JosBlomsma]

@@xXTheoLinuxXx Die overeenkomsten in cultuur en geschiedenis zijn evident, ik heb het alleen over de taal. Als Fries wil ik daar toch even een duidelijke grens aangeven ;) Trouwens: het Nedersaksisch hoeft zich niet te schamen. Volgens een bescheiden schatting zijn er 10 keer zoveel sprekers van een Nedersaksisch dialect dan van een variant van het Frysk.

[@CakeboyRiP]

Now this is the type of videos i like to see from you. Thank you so much Hilbert

[@md_studios9819]

small correction: the total amount of Dutch in the world is 33,000,000, only about 15 million are in the diaspora

[@JaccovanSchaik]

14:10 Not that we're bitter or anything...

[@toprob20]

Never forget, never forgive!

[@dutchman7623]

Bad idea, good that it didn't happen. Sadly millions had to leave the Netherlands because of the destruction and the flooding the Germans and our allies caused.

[@celloswiss]

🤦

[@SurfinScientist]

The problem with shifting borders is that they become a source of future conflicts, and even war. So, as a Dutchman I am happy that this plan did not go through. Anyway, in the EU borders have become less important nowadays.

[@wesley8055]

Let me guess: I wouldn't be Dutch We take over Germany, we're all just broski's now

[@Jack-mm4cb]

2:20 gonna use this in my EU4 Netherlands game

[@Jurian81]

Man, I never knew we had so much questionable reasoning and ethics shortly after WW2. I wish I could ask my grandfather what he thought of the situation back then.

[@schubi42]

goes to show that Germany wasn't entirely out of line in Europe, with their expansion / Lebensraum kinks.

[@systemerror7857]

Even the antisemitism was entirely "en vogue". The winner nations love to act like they had no part in it, but many of them also greatly marginalised and discriminated against jewish people before the war. One of the few countries in Europe that wasn't overly antisemitic were the polish, they treated the jews well since the times of Casimir III. England and France especially were incredibly antisemitic and xenophobic, both those countries had human zoos and treated their colonies horribly over hundreds of years. The Nazis being even worse cunts was literally a dream come true for both empires, because people have forgotten just how many crimes against humanity the french and english committed. And while Germany is still paying reparations to countries like Namibia and is actively working through it's history and wrongdoings, the english and french continue to be proud of their colonial heritage, while paying none of the countries they exploited over decades/centuries even a cent...

[@rey_nemaattori]

3:46 This Netherlands is sooo thiccc, love this map!

[@fekssnek367]

You missed the bit that Limburg expanded in the map at 4:30

[@justinpachi3707]

We'd basically have seen something like the Irish Troubles in Germany and probably a lot of support for ultra-nationalisism within Germany.

[@dabbasw31]

If the German had allowed to stay, modern-day Netherlands would have a very large German minority which would demand minority protection laws, similar to the German-speaking population in South Tyrol. The eastern Netherlands would still be German-speaking to this day. The Netherlands would have transformed into a multi-lingual state like Belgium or Switzerland.

[@simonh6371]

That wouldn't have happened though. There were no Germanies from 1945-49 and even after the 2 Republics + the Saar Protectorate were created in 1949, they were still under military occupation until 1955, and none had their own armed forces. Berlin was still technically under allied occupation until 1991. And even long after reunification and the 2+4 Vertrag (1991), western Germany was still full of British, US, French, Belgian Dutch and Danish units stationed there. The Soviet then Russian forces didn't fully leave the former GDR until 1994.

[@systemerror7857]

​@@simonh6371 Sorry but did the presence of british troops in Ireland prevent the Troubles? No. Partisan fighters don't engage in open firefights, of course it would've happened, regardless of troop presence.

[@simonh6371]

@@systemerror7857 Honestly the 2 are chalk and cheese. The IRA and other paramilitary groups had arms supplied from overseas, that's a bit controversial and I'm not going to go into all details but for example Gadaffi admitted supplying them, hence they had access to AKs and RPGs. They also had access to Armalites which were an icon of PIRA. Who would have supplied arms to the Germans? They were disarmed and much of their infrastructure was destroyed, and certainly in no condition to establish serious guerilla / partisan units, at least not until the late 50s. Although by the late 60s/early 70s there were RAF (Rote Armee Faction) armed terrorist groups. But certainly for the first 10 years after the end of WW2 we can say that their spirit was broken as a nation and they were in no condition to offer serious resistance, beyond a handful of ver small groups which are documented as having operated in the immediate aftermath of WW2. The IRA on the other hand became stronger (long before the Troubles) after having effectively won partial independence from the largest and most powerful Empire on earth at that time, so obviously were far from demoralised.

[@systemerror7857]

@@simonh6371 The spanish would've supplied arms, there were fascist regimes/military juntas in south america that would've sold weapons to them too. Germany had been militaristic for most of it's history and WW2 literally started because the germans were disarmed and humiliated and didn't take it too well. You seriously expect that they would've just given in? Don't matter that they lost the war, they started that war for the same reason you say they couldn't have fought back. Keep believing what you want, but you're wrong.

[@NickAndriadze]

You didn't touch upon how would the invasion go, because I REALLY doubt Netherlands would just be allowed to _yoink_ what was then Allied-occupied territory like that.

[@JHenryEden]

Let me spoil the video: What if the Netherlands invaded Germany? They'd fail.

[@simonh6371]

Well no not in that period. All of Germany or what was left of it after losing about 1/4 of it's territory for good to Poland & the USSR, was under military occupation between the 4 main allies (USA, UK, France, USSR) until 1955 and none of the 3 Germanies (I'll come back to that) had their own military. The remaining 3/4 of Germany was split into the GDR, BRD and also the lesser known Saar Protectorate, which was incorporated into the BRD in 1957. It's actually neither here nor there because even after reunification the former BRD was still split into different military zones and Corps Areas, principally US, British and French, but there were also Dutch and Belgian troops stationed there and I think Danish too. The British presence there has declined considerably, now I read in Defence Journal it's around 1,000, back in the Cold War it was 55,000. I was stationed in Herford, NRW 1991-3 in the British Army. We did joint comms exercises with the Bundeswehr, Belgian and Dutch armies too, and I remember a platoon of Dutch soldiers staying on our camp for a week for training. I would be interested to hear from any Dutch people reading this - maybe ex-military - whether there are still Dutch bases in Germany. The Red Army didn't leave the former GDR until 1994. In summer 1991 myself and a mate drove over to Magdeburg to have a look, the border was open but technically we should have requested leave despite not being on duty, as we were leaving the (British) Corps Area. The place was still swarming with Sovs but they looked to be at a loose end by then, remember seeing some in the city centre in dress uniform, sat on benches swigging vodka (or maybe Schnapps) with those big wide caps perched on the back of their heads.

[@Scar_tisseu-86]

@simonh6371 I'm not militairy, but I do know our tank battalions are currently in germany mixed in two german tank battalions. Since we sold our last 18 tanks to Ukraine. We did order 52 new ones, but don't have them yet.

[@JHenryEden]

@@Scar_tisseu-86 they are in germany to be taught by a german how to piss forward and how to operate superior weaponry.

Netherlands: They took our bicycles so we take their land. US, France, Brittan: NO. We need a buffer state. Netherlands: ok. Then this piece of land. US, France, Brittan: We said NO! Netherlands: ok then what about this piece of land? US, France, Brittan: STOP ASKING FOR LAND! WE ALREADY SAID NO! Netherlands: Darn it! Then I'll take this 70 square km! Germany: I want my land back. Here's some money. Netherlands: ok, Agreed! 😂

[@ouwebrood497]

Yeah, the Netherlands can be really bad when someone gives them some money. Bye bye New Amsterdam.

[@caseclosed9342]

10:17 Fun fact: One of those Dutch immigrants to Canada that made the move after WW2 was a female immigrant who would later marry a Canadian man and became the mother of a prominent Canadian KZbinr - the KZbinr being JJ McCollough.

[@henriklarssonstanaccount5599]

13 seconds from upload on a history with hilbert video my phone nearly fell from my hands I clicked so fast

[@Tiktik_Xanim]

It would’ve honestly been better if the Dutch government at the time pursued for Dutchification instead of mass expulsion, the Allie’s would’ve probably be more favorable and now the country would be stronger

[@666Maeglin]

Insane? It would have been marvelous..

[@Hive__]

As a F1 fan: The National Anthem at the end was uncalled for!

[@LuvBorderCollies]

My first reaction..... that's pretty ballsy of the Dutch. They must have felt very strong after the war.

[@NonSequitur404]

Super interesting and well researched video on such a wild plan!

[@KebabischeDemokratischeUnion]

BTW the ``Ruhrgebiet``is 70-120m under the ocean’s surface

[@Red_Duc]

I would be interested in the language spoken in the new territories. Maybe as a compromise with the local population a compromise would be reached that the emphasis would be put on making Low German the dominant language over there, as it hasn't dissapeared to the extent it did today. Maybe it would create an interesting dynamic where around half the country would speak Low German and the other half Dutch and then some Frisian and Saterfrisian. Maybe the Netherlands would be some kind of Federation with the Dutch area, the Low German area and the Frisian area having some sort of self rule. And then the areas could have provinces similar in Size to the modern provinces.

[@MyILoveMinecraft]

I'd actually love that. I love low German, but I feel like I'm the only one my age still speaking it

[@xaverlustig3581]

German and Dutch form a dialect continuum, dialects in close border areas are very similar with nearby dialects on the other side. What dialect is thought of as Dutch or German is purely due to political affiliation. So, the dialects in the new territories, that in our time are classified as German (such as Low German, Kleverlandisch) would be reclassified as Dutch. No need for multilinguism, except maybe for Frisian

[@xXTheoLinuxXx]

@@xaverlustig3581 Ostfries is similar to Gronings, not a big suprise because they share some history :)

[@DeutschlandDenDeutschen1848]

The Netherlands already have Low Saxon dialects. Gronings is Low Saxon. So the new territories would just speak Gronings with a bit more Gronings. Alternatively you can summon King Radbod a revive Frisia Magna.

[@xaverlustig3581]

@@xXTheoLinuxXx Yeah but Frisian is not a form of Low Saxon but a separate language. It's still spoken in parts of the Netherlands but close to extinction in Germany. Some small villages in the Saterland only. The language called "Ostfriesisch" today is not a version of Frisian, but a version of Low Saxon / Plattdeutsch. They would have to make a special case for the actual Frisian language.

[@joost444]

Didn't the allies (the english if i remember correctly) have a plan to deindustrialise germany that would have lead to widespread starvation. The soviets didn't treat eastern europe that differently with shuffeling borders and peoples around. In the context of that time, the plan wasn't all that crazy

[@DavidWildgoose]

No, that was an American plan. (Morganthau Plan). Fortunately, it wasn’t carried out.

[@FoundingFathersUSA]

Fascinating.

[@umgssda]

Do I read the map at 4:34 right? Even with this enlargement of the province of Gelderland it would not have included the city of Geldern? You have to admire this level of dedication to a principle.:)

[@mayson1510]

As someone from Geldern, i also checked if it was in gelderland, and was upset that it wasn’t. Even tho Geldern isn’t marked on the map it would be close to the nederrhijn gelderland border on the nederrhijn side.

[@Vonihidilix]

Go ahead, it's never too late! Netherlands simply deserves those lands!

[@nacelnikprosiak1260]

Hey could you maybe make a video on what if after ww2 Polish-Czechoslovak border conflicts escalated into full on war between those nations, for a small context Czechoslovaks laid claims to many towns in souther Silesia that USSR wanted to give to Poland, in June 1945 they invaded Poland by marching their army near Kłodzko area and hung Czechoslovak flags over townhalls while Polish troops started mobilizing on Odra river, some soviet occupation garnison troops helped Czechoslovak and didn't allow Polish administration workers to enter those areas

[@rauwetter]

There is a small mistake, Stemmert is the name of the new Stadt Steinfurt, which wasn't there at 45. The Low German name for Burgsteinfurt is Stenvorde. And Streenvoorde is still in use, for example in train announcements, but is used now for Stadt Steinfurt.

[@jeanpierreviergever1417]

Many German cities had Dutch names since the old days, in any event since the 1500’s since low Germany was under Dutch influence and low German was closer to the Dutch language as it was back then. Only after Prussia took over the Rhineland education in standard German started.

[@ouwebrood497]

Actually, Prussians conquered area from the Netherlands and it was not given back after WW2. But never mind, we're a protectorate from the US anyway.

[@therealgerold]

Actually the part between Kleve, Geldern and Xanten always used to be a bilingual zone throughout the centuries until hitler started to import more Germans from different parts of Germany and kick Dutch speakers back across the border to Holland. The region between Kleve, Geldern, and Xanten indeed has a rich bilingual history, deeply influenced by its position along the Dutch-German border. This area was historically part of the Lower Rhine and shared close linguistic and cultural ties with the Netherlands, where Dutch and German dialects blended. For centuries, both Dutch and German dialects were commonly spoken here, and local communities often used a blend of both languages in daily life, giving the region a unique cultural character. During the Third Reich, Hitler's regime sought to create a more uniform German identity, which led to the suppression of regional dialects and languages. The Nazi government promoted the use of standard German across various regions, which included discouraging Dutch-speaking communities and encouraging migration from other parts of Germany to create a more “Germanized” population. This policy, unfortunately, disrupted the long-standing bilingual traditions of areas like Kleve and Xanten and led to many Dutch speakers moving across the border. However, traces of this bilingual past remain in cultural traditions, local dialects, and even certain regional expressions today.

[@adifreitag8579]

Die niederländische Sprache basiert auf einem deutschen Dialekt. Mit der Abtrennung der Niederlande vom Reich nach dem Dreißigjährigen Krieg (1618-48) hat sich der in den Niederlanden gesprochene Dialekt verselbständigt. Aber die sprachliche Verwandtschaft ist bis heute zu erkennen. Obwohl ich kein Niederländisch spreche, kann ich mit notfalls mit Konzentration und Fantasie mit einem Niederländer oder Flamen verständigen. Auch die heutige Grenzziehung war nicht immer so. So umfasstem die deutschen Herzogtümer Kleve, Geldern und Jülich sowohl Gebiete, die heute zu Deutschland wie zu den Niederlanden gehören. Ich habe einmal gehört, das nach den Napoleonischen Kriegen die Grenze einen Kanonenschuss östlich der Maas gezogen wurde. Ob das Wahrheit oder Scherz ist, kann ich nicht beurteilen. Auf jeden Fall ist die ethnische und kulturelle Verbundenheit über die heutige Grenze hinaus eine Realität. The Dutch language is based on a German dialect. When the Netherlands separated from the Empire after the Thirty Years' War (1618-48), the dialect spoken in the Netherlands became independent. But the linguistic relationship can still be seen today. Although I don't speak Dutch, I can, if necessary, communicate with a Dutchman or a Flemish person with concentration and imagination. The current borders were not always drawn like this either. The German duchies of Cleves, Gelderland and Jülich included areas that today belong to Germany as well as to the Netherlands. I once heard that after the Napoleonic Wars the border was drawn one cannon shot east of the Maas. I cannot judge whether that is true or a joke. In any case, ethnic and cultural ties beyond the current border are a reality.

[@THEREALMELEONEYT]

3:12 why is the first g exististing in Mönchengladbach?

[@Dr0346]

MÖNCHENGLADBACH MY CITY WAS MENTIONED IN A VIDEO!!!

[@JeremyIrwin-c8f]

Without the support of the US and the UK, any Dutch plans were a no-go.

[@revinhatol]

Oldenburg in the Netherlands? Count ne im!

[@alansmithee8831]

Hello Hilbert. So this was all denied to the Dutch as a cunning plan to stop them winning the World Cup? Sounds like a load of Baldrick's ideas to me and I watched them lose all the finals they played live on TV. You will tell me Archie Gemill would not have scored his famous goal in the group stage game next.

[@LCTesla]

why would we want all that land with **shudder** _germans_ on it...

[@hiscuriousforyou]

I think a cool video would be looking at an alternate history where following the succession of Belgium and Luxembourg, the Frisian movement expands seeing the Netherlands as we know it fall apart and a new Frisian state take its place spanning from Friesland to Denmark along the coast

[@hansvandermeulen5515]

Weren't we busy laying down the law in the Dutch Indies?

[@robertham2703]

They stole our bicycles so there was nothing left to invade with

[@theChaosKe]

Looking at the potential dutch province of "saksen" - as if having sachsen, sachsen-anhalt and niedersachsen wasnt already complicated enough lol They could have at least had the decency to give it a more precise name (i vote for neder-neder-saksen)

[@azurudesuu]

If this happens, my fellow Indonesians will still be speaking Dutch now.

[@GAZAMAN93X]

That's crazy y'all had sellouts fighting for the Dutch

[@ingwiafraujaz3126]

​@@GAZAMAN93XNot sellouts. Just parts that were grateful for all the good the Dutch did there. It's modern woke propaganda that colonies were worse off for European control.

[@GAZAMAN93X]

@ingwiafraujaz3126 what tf is you talking about? And stop using the term woke because I promise that you don't know what you're talking about. What they were grateful for was the privileges the Dutch gave them meanwhile the rest of their fellow men was suffering. It's a tale as old as time. Divide and conquer. Give special privileges to a minority so they're more likely to help you when w slave uprising pops up.

[@Stroopwafe1]

@@GAZAMAN93X The only 'good' thing we Dutch did was unite Indonesia with their hatred for us lmao, if we didn't go there, they'd probably still be a bunch of smaller kingdoms/sultanates

[@GAZAMAN93X]

@@Stroopwafe1 we can't say for sure as the timeline would be different. Probably fall under different European control unfortunately most likely by the French & British. If for some reason they left it alone like Thailand (in our timeline Britain and France left Thailand alone as a buffer space to separate French Indochina & British India making them the only nation in that region not colonized.) in our timeline Thailand tried their best to industrialize to prevent further British and French encroachment. They weren't as successful as Japan tho who fresh out of isolation managed to rapidly industrialize & develop to be a power strong enough to be a threat to the European powers. Let's say Britain and France had a similar deal where they laid a hands off approach to what we call Indonesia. In an alt timeline we could see where Japan, Thailand & the Indonesian Islands become the Asian tigers of that region. Possibly forming some kind of early Pan-Asian Alliance to aid each other develop & eventually defend each other as they grow more powerful to resist European colonialism in the region. Since Java is the most populated & economically strongest out of all the islands it'll be them who most likely unify the the islands of Indonesia. Or it could be Sumatra that's next to Malaysia and not far from Thailand. I can see cities in Sumatra becoming important trade cities between Sumatra & Indonesia as a whole as they do trade with Thailand that's not that far off. The bigger issue will be getting to Japan which is much further away. At the very least Thailand & Indonesia in this timeline will have very strong ties whether Indonesia is dominated by Sumatra or Java. That's up to your interpretation. Since the Indonesian Islands aren't ruled by a European colonial power Japan wouldn't have a reason to invade the region during WW2 if we're assuming history plays out mostly the same. If we assume that Thailand & the Indonesian Islands have industrialized to be somewhat on par with Japan of our timeline I can see the French -Indochina war kick off much earlier in this time as the Japanese, Indonesia & Thailand preach Anti colonialism & Pan-Asianism ideas throughout East & South East Asia. We could also see a possibility the 3 countries covertly support these uprisings throughout the continent. Funding & supplying weapons & equipment to the Vietnamese who rose up much earlier in this timeline to kick the French out of Indochina. & Since this is done in the name of Pan-Asianism & Anti Colonialism the US probably wouldn't get involved. This is way before the cold war & the whole Communism red scare movement. At best they'd probably get sanctioned by the US & mostly be left alone unless one of them deliberately declares war on & attack the US like what Japan did in Pearl Harbor in our current timeline. Oh God. I need someone to do an alt history video on if Indonesia was never colonized & they industrialized alongside Thailand & Japan.

[@Jay-Sage]

The Netherlands doesn't Annax, we expand and conquer the sea! 😊

[@jonsouth1545]

Considering how much of Germany was ceded to Poland in 1945 as an apology the Dutch request was perfectly reasonable

[@YeetusCleetus]

0:06 no way they have fake taxi there 🙏

[@schlaumayer3754]

Hey! I'm a bit late, but Kleef *is* actually the established dutch name for Kleve. They didn't invent it or take ik from the regional dialect ("kleefs Platt")

[@Counteris16]

You didn't mention anything about the Frisians that a lot of that territory were their historical homeland just a century prior, how Saterland Frisian would probably have been encouraged. I am very disappointed.

[@historywithhilbert]

Fair point. I did make a channel all about Frisians though... kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJOlq4mgmsSjf8k

[@DorchesterMom]

Read that title as “Neanderthals.” That would have been 2000% cooler.

[@ingwiafraujaz3126]

Well, the Dutch and Germans do have a high percentage of Neanderthal DNA so you're not wrong

[@onnofeldmann4282]

I have friends in Emlichheim, and there they say "Emmelkamp" with a short -a-.

[@cyberspacekosmonaut]

Hey it's never too late

[@ouwebrood497]

Sometimes when you ask for something it's reasonable to start with a high bid and then you meet somewhere in the middle ending up with a good deal. But when your bid is unreasonable high, you're not considered serious and end up with nothing. I think it would be very reasonable if the Netherlands had at least got something after the losses. Almost all neighbouring countries got something. The area around Emmerich - Kleve - Goch would have provided a better geographical shape with quite some area but not too much inhabitants. But France, UK, US and SU didn't care. They dropped more bombs in the Netherlands than the Germans anyway. So like most small European countries it was just considered collateral damage and the four big countries went away with all the trophies.

[@Michel-r6m]

I regurlarly drove through Selfkant. The road was Dutch and left and right was German.

[@mx58n]

i wonder if the allies would've allowed part if not all of it had the dutch just dropped the deportation plan

[@jonathanvandenbos5643]

you know your right 14 dutch players would win to 8 germans in football

[@generalmarkmilleyisbenedic8895]

Im not joking at the beginning of the video, with the map showing, the music, and terms like “war reperations” i had a slip of sanity and thought i was playing EU4

[@dennisvisser3910]

would east frisia and german limburg not be viable?

[@ShadowPhoenixMaximus]

Loved living in Munster when it was a military city, lots of cool architecture and history surrounding it

[@jeremymeesters4658]

This is alt-history with hilbert now.

[@basil_gamin]

Laat Duitsland we moeten België terug nemen

[@AWaBfantasy]

Op naar België mannen! Hup hup! Het is tijd voor de tweede veldtocht, en deze zal geen tien dagen duren!

[@johnmoser1162]

Yea with some pussies in the Dutch army ? ... 🙂 [edit: failed in South Africa, failed in WW2, failed in Indonesia ... see a pattern ?]

[@stoffel880]

lol we zien ier, kom maar op!

[@johnmoser1162]

@@stoffel880 Well - I am not Belgian. But I would say, Flanders vs Hollanders ... the Flanders will kick your azzes. Btw are you Dutch ? [PS: Hilbert ... you are so lame, why censoring facts ?]

[@stoffel880]

@@johnmoser1162 i am flemish and very proud of it, we have been sold by the dutch to the french some would call that treason disclaimer 'i dont hate hollanders' au contraire the response is in west flemish, its a song it means: here we are, come get us!

[@eddys.3524]

I doubt the Netherlands in those days would have the administrative organisation and power to implement the Bakker-Schut plan.. I guess it would have failed immediately or collapsed soon after. The deportation and relocation ( of Dutch people) into the occupied German territories would have been a disaster, both in Germany and in the Netherlands. It also would have prevented the European Economic Community from forming due to Dutch -German tensions.

[@pettahify]

The re-naming scheme is just how Israel renamed the Palestinian villages they took over. "Just remake the Arab name to make it sound more Hebrew". Not really hard, since both are Semitic languages.

[@LekkerRekkenYT]

A modest request, a modest man

[@somebloke8405]

It’s a shame that this tiny blob on the continent called the Netherlands wasn’t able to annex all that sweet, juicy German territories. Let alone the entirety of Belgium and Luxembourg. And the cherry on the top, the Eiffel regions and the northern territories of France. If all of that belonged to the Netherlands, then it would’ve been the richest, most powerful country in Europe, and probably the whole world

[@pietervanderzwaan4295]

And created the real francia.

[@smal750]

cringing beyond comprehension

[@ouwebrood497]

It would be awesome to have Duinkerken, still dutch speakers there. But Calais, I rather leave that to France.

[@smal750]

@ouwebrood497 Lol speaking a langage has nothing to do with belonging to a country get out salty dutch

[@croozerdog]

my grandpa told stories on how the soldiers were protecting our border on bicycles up to the point where they got the message of our surrender, completely missing the message that the invasion had even begun. I now imagine those 12 soldiers going into germany on those cycles either way, good thing we didn't, in this timeline I couldn't cycle over the border to get cheap cigarettes

[@AyubuKK]

Sounds like this is Hilbert’s dream.

[@soanyway6746]

So what did we Dutchmen get from this? Victory in the World Cup. Was it worth it? *YES IT WAS*

[@Chrizz06041980]

At 2:06 Mönchengladbach, which name until 1963 was Münchengladbach is written wrong with another "g". And at 3:33 you say, that Tüddern came back to Germany in 1960, but it was in 1963, when several annexed municipalities were given to the FRG 🇩🇪.

[@AndrewPalmerMTL]

I am amused by ending up assessing the impact of such a significant geopolitical alternate timeline as being the result of the 1974 World Cup changing. :)

[@otto1449]

I always wondered about that.

[@Scar_tisseu-86]

In all fairness, if you look at the old provinces borders before the treaty of utrecht. You already can see, that alot of land was lost. For example my own province of gelderland. (Known as gelre till the 1500s) it existed out of 5 quarters (kwartier zutphen, quater of nijmegen nowadays known as betuwe, qaurter of arnhem nowadays known as veluwe, and the opper quarter roermond) the opper qaurter of roermond is lost half is now in the province of limburg and the other half is in germany now. Just like half of limburg is in belgium, annd a small part is also in germany. So it would have made sence, to claim it back. And then you have to consider, that the netherlands is a big country under the small countries, and a small country under the big countries, and yet we can lead the small countries, and compete with the big countries. But most of the time the netherlands isnt considered a powerfull nation.but secretly are a very powerfull countrie.

[@ouwebrood497]

Yes, I think it would have been reasonable to claim a chunk of former Gelre. If I'm not mistaken the province is named after the now German city Geldern.

[@Scar_tisseu-86]

@ouwebrood497 it is actually based up on a saga. Of 2 brothers and a dragon. As the Gerard of flames drove his sword into weakend armored spot on the dragons chest. The dragon screamed in its dying breath. GELRE!!! GELRE!!!. and an emperor, was so impressed that he granted the title of count to the brothers, and Gerard 1 of flamens build oa tower on the same spot he slain the dragon and named it geldern. Now, how cool of an origin story is that?

[@zebra1327]

Just so you know, it's Mönchengladbach

[@MacAnters]

🎉 aren't you Glad the Mönchen are Bach?

[@Sander_van_de_Reep]

Netherlands should have only taken kleef and East Frisia and other parts of the Netherlands that used to have a link to the Dutch nation

[@vivianbeckford3084]

Kleve? As in Anne of Cleves? So England would retroactively get a Dutch monarch 150 years earlier?

[@dylanojonker3098]

No idea what would've happened, but what if we made it happen nowadays?

[@DeHub94]

With the Dutch army having been integrated into the German one that doesn't seem like a good idea tbh.

[@Fievelavie]

Dutch are swampgermans

[@TheElderize]

crazy how in 1974 even footballers used to be European instead of African like they all are now

[@danielbishop1863]

European leftists today: Where TF do Trump and Netanyahu get the idea that they can just force 2 million people to leave Gaza? Well, *this* is where.

[@arvidsfar1580]

Aachen in the local dialect is 'Oche' [ˈɔːxə], which is also what people from neighbouring Vaals/NL call it.

[@pietervanderzwaan4295]

A better title: What if the Netherlands enforced the 'bakker-schutplan'.

[@redmen55]

0:05 fake taxi

[@ConsciousAtoms]

I feel ashamed as a Dutchman that some of my fellow countrymen thought the Bakker Schut plan would be a good idea. It is really insane. I could fully envision the British (who occupied this part of Germany after the war) actually intervening with their armed forces if we had tried this.

[@constantinethecataphract5949]

Why? Sounds based to me. Ashamed of what? Of taking more territory for your people?

[@toade1583]

@@constantinethecataphract5949 Of expelling 13 million people from their homes just for some dirt, yes.

[@ingwiafraujaz3126]

​@@toade1583Nah, in practice only the actual nazis would have been deported. West Germans are more like the Dutch than the High Germans anyway so it would make sense to unite them. The Low Saxons in West Germany and East Netherlands are the same people. The national border arbitrarily divides them.

[@constantinethecataphract5949]

@@toade1583 "Just some dirt"

[@xyzxyzxyzxyz]

Dutch diaspora is 15.6m, diaspora + current citizens would be 33mil.