Hit Point Alternatives

[@jamesc.7216]

We always played with the idea that Hit Points were a character's ability to avoid critial damage and that below 0 health was the actual meat on the bones so to speak. So it was kind of a fatigue system like professional boxing or MMA. You can tank superficial hits but when your HP run out you get floored with the next hit. Gives a lot of player agency to describe how they want their character to take hits in RP heavy games and feels more realistic in crunchy games.

[@bgibeast]

Same! It's like how good are you at surviving combat, which increases with time and experience (player level). It's not like if you are a higher level and someone puts a dagger through your eye/brain you just have more hit points to absorb the traumatic damage. Instead its more like a pool of skill/luck points you get for avoiding lethal damage, how many times you can get the enemies' sword to bounce off thick armor before they get lucky and slash your neck.

[@AzraelThanatos]

If you want to make that more mechanical, look at the older Vitality and Wounds system. It was first used for the Star Wars D20 stuff (except SAGA edition), but they had conversion rules in the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana book (and is, I believe, SRD content from there still). The basic thing is that you have vitality that absorbs most attacks, and covers the energy and effects of things, but when those are gone or if you take a critical hit, that deals wounds that are actual damage. Vitality is pretty much what you'd be getting with the normal HP system, Wounds are equal to your Constitution score. Crits can either just do double damage or, essentially, do a double hit where one is to VP and one to WP. The system, at the time, also added a damage reduction mechanic for armor in addition to defense bonus' from it. Most people who use it with 5e also shift it so that you recover Con mod wounds when you spend a die to heal during a short rest.

[@Calebgoblin]

Right, same here. People get so lost in semantics, getting upset about how one game or another doesn't describe the resource of combat in the exact way they like. It's an abstraction! The DM has great freedom to describe it however the table sees fit! The game system does not need to hold their hand!

[@bgibeast]

@@AzraelThanatos I havent seen that particular system... but I have been thinking about implementing something besides hit points... mainly because I just feel like the words "hit points" isn't flavorful and feels too gamey... yeah even though its a game. I will take a look, thank you!

[@krinkrin5982]

@@AzraelThanatos I remember that system. I really liked it because it gave you more survivability at lower levels (basically doubling/tripling your pool), but made you be still vulnerable at higher levels due to critical hit potential.

[@mikaangeli5765]

3:49 Ability scores 5:40 Items damaged 7:34 Loss of time 10:02 The Mini-Game

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@empyreal_lord]

Banner Saga had a mechanic where your health is also your attack power, with armor as DR. So taking damage made it harder for your to inflict damage, and you could be tactical about sundering enemy armor or trying to brute force past it to deal health to stop them from doing the same to you. Also made resolving conflicts nonlethally very valuable since even a fight you win could cost you resources for the next fight, or the one after that.

[@Calebgoblin]

Bandits Keep vids are my evening comfort food

[@BanditsKeep]

Glad you like them!

[@jamesc.7216]

I have to agree. Also quite a bit of good discussion on this topic. I didn't think this was a topic that would have so many differing opinions.

[@user-Brian_Gregory]

Back when I started playing AD&D in the '80s, I wondered where the odd term "hit points" came from. I just recently learned that it originated with- of all things- naval wargames: it's the number of hits it takes to sink a particular ship!

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@michaelwest4325]

My notion in a B/X setting is to make CON (3d6) the HP and capped at a natural 18 to make low level characters (and NPCs) more robust yet still frighteningly vulnerable without extra mechanisms. Armor helps more, DEX gives a valued bonus, and keeps CON a worthy stat. A simple revision to simpler rules.

[@emarsk77]

I really love how Into the Odd does it: it's at the same time quick at play, very elegant, and decently realistic.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@CaseyWilkesmusic]

As a player, contextualizing HP is a nice touch. Instead of saying “hey, what’s your HP?” If you simply say “I’m bloodied” or “i go to dodge and I feel the several reshot bruised ribs complain.”

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@Torvik40]

11:13 "They can be wrestling contests, contests of will, and they can be duels..." Sounds like The Princess Bride.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed!

[@Patrick-nl4zp]

Daniel I don't watch all of your content but many of your videos are just so good. Like this one

[@Xplora213]

Fix it. Watch them all. His crap videos are top shelf. Let alone the good ones 🎉

[@LuizPaiva2077]

You're lucky! You have the opportunity to watch all of his content for the first time so

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@MemphiStig]

Knave 2e uses hp, but instead of death at 0 hp, you have a limited number of inventory slots, which you begin to remove items from and fill instead with wounds or injuries. And when you're out of inventory slots, you're dead. These slots are also filled by armor, so this affects your AC, meaning an increased likelihood of harm/death. It's more of an alternative to death saves and the like than hp, as well as standard AC, but it could certainly be adapted as desired.

[@BanditsKeep]

That seems like it would be fun narratively as well - injured so you can’t carry a heavy load

[@jnov3655]

Excellent topic. This is next-level gaming here. These options really make a game dynamic and open it up to some great fun.

[@underfire987]

Brilliant ideas all something for me to think on! Thanks again for your great videos always a way to cheer up my day

[@KyleMaxwell]

I like the idea of hit points as luck, at least until they run out. But the idea of reserving them for combat only, letting traps do other things that are more narrative or have other kinds of penalties, is very appealing, - particularly when I run really light rules set like Searchers of the Unknown.

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

Great video! My issue with hit points is, generally, that each "exchange" between the players and the world don't really make a big impact on the narrative and mechanics of a fight. The only hit point that matters is the last, as it were. Hit points are quick and intuitive, but that streamlined nature comes at a cost of evocation, in my opinion. I'm a big fan of wound/injury systems to add more meat to the exchange, personally! That's not as suitable for heroic fantasy, of course, but for grittier combat I prefer them. They aren't without their issues as well, of course! 🤠

[@matthewwinans3068]

Fancy meetin' you here, Sheriff Pete 🤠

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

@@matthewwinans3068 Haha, the sheriff roams far and wide, my friend!

[@matthewwinans3068]

@@TalesFromElsewhereGames Watch out for the "long arm of the law".....

[@mkklassicmk3895]

I just recommended your channel to someone else in this comment section who was looking for something better than an HP system.

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

@@mkklassicmk3895 Haha appreciate it! My deputies out here doin' work 🤠

[@breakerpressgames]

I love writing monsters and traps that attack ability scores, saving throws, and time. I also use subdual damage a lot. I only just started attacking items/equipment. There are so many dials you can turn. I'm in the DCC writing space, so modifying the dice chain is obviously a big one too.

[@projab]

I've been tinkering with a system where all stats work kinda like hit protection in Into the Odd. When you do something that requires effort, you roll a die depending on the circumstances, and subtract the result from the relevant stat. Your stats come back with a short rest, risking a roll of the event die. If a stat is reduced under zero, you take the rest as exhaustion, which is cleared after a day's sleep. Stats are also used when attacking and defending, and if a stat is reduced to zero while defending, the rest causes a wound.

[@Arnsteel634]

Numenera?

[@projab]

@@Arnsteel634 i've heard about numenera but don't know how it works

[@astrolama-p3o]

The Broken Empires (currently, on Kickstarter) introduces very interesting alternative. There is no hit points but wounds to specific hit location. Getting a wound of some value means that you immediately roll with wound die and if the result is equal or below the wound value, the hit location becomes incapacitated. If you have to many wound points in any location you start to roll death die. Also wounds can become infected if not properly taken care of.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting

[@b0therme]

I agree with Tracy Hickman and Dan Masters, cap your hit point totals at 3rd or 5th level whichever works for your play style. Yes, of course you'll have to cap monsters at 30 - 75hp. Add minions with 1hp each so your Characters mow through them like Legolis and Gimli at Helms Deep! Cinematic Style!!

[@BanditsKeep]

That can certainly be fun!

[@crowgoblin]

Or an easier way is to not include the CON bonus per level, HP will then be approximately 1/3 lower.

[@b0therme]

@@crowgoblin You can do literally anything you want. If it seems easier to you, do it. I think you're eliminating CON as a stat; a more fundamental restructuring of the game then I want to do. By 14th level you'll still Characters around 80 Hit Points. I want to keep it to six stats, d20 roll high, my main point is this is YOUR game, at your table! Do with it what you want. You owe nothing to TSR, WATC, Hasbro, Daniel or me!😁

[@MWodenberg]

I play 3.5ish, when players receive a critical hit, I let them choose whether to take the critical damage or sunder their weapon/shield/armor. When they are low on hit points, it gives them an option. I find they have a hard time letting go their possessions even at the risk of their life.

[@keithkannenberg7414]

Hit points are an abstraction. A very useful abstraction since most of the time we're looking to play a RPG, not a highly detailed combat simulation. It's not surprising that this abstraction can break down in some situations. My favorite example is a high level fighter jumping off a 500' cliff knowing that he has enough hit points to survive 20d6 damage. That's ridiculous; maybe a GM can save the situation with a bunch of narrative description (e.g. the fighter doesn't swan dive off the cliff but is really trying to grab roots and ledges and manages to slow his fall enough to not splatter on the ground) but it strains credulity. All of that is to say that I love the idea of using other systems in addition to HP. Use HP in combat where the abstraction was designed to work and do other things for other situations that are more interesting and (hopefully) fun.

[@mkklassicmk3895]

HP are not a good way of doing that. You don't need a highly detailed combat simulation to use something that's better than Hit Points. I stopped using HP many years ago and it was the best thing I have ever done for my game.

[@ruskerdax5547]

@@mkklassicmk3895 What do you use instead?

[@mkklassicmk3895]

@@ruskerdax5547 I use a system that figures out if you hit or miss and how bad the wound is in a single roll. It doesn't even require any charts or hit location mechanics.

[@keithkannenberg7414]

@@mkklassicmk3895 I think using HP is a good way of doing abstract combat quickly. But that doesn't mean that there aren't better ways. What you're doing might be a lot better - don't know.

[@mkklassicmk3895]

@@keithkannenberg7414 So far I have converted every D&D player I have ever played it with.

[@AnotherDuck]

I like the idea of some kind of temporary stat damage for traps. They often don't do much other than waste some resources to heal back, which usually doesn't matter much. Whether it's an ability score, speed, max HP, equipment dsmage, or something else doesn't matter too much, but it at least changes the situation slightly until it can be fixed.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@sharpmountaingames9303]

This really gave me food for thought. I especially liked the idea of losing items. Good stuff that I'm definitely going to use. Take care.

[@BanditsKeep]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jacknerdlord3244]

Awesome vid Daniel, thank uou

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@seanfsmith]

one of my favourite foes in **Troika!** is the PISCEAN (body of a fish, legs of a man) who spends all its turns eating the rations of anyone who's knocked out in the combat

[@KryyssTV]

While not a TTRPG, the game Fear & Hunger implemented a hit location system where the torso and head were the only areas to effect HP while limbs would result in a miss but could result in dismemberment or status effects which influenced HP. Under these conditions you could have characters suffer penalties such as losing both legs thereby needing to drag themselves around using their remaining arm(s) or they could lose arms meaning they couldn't wield certain items. Loss of all four limbs didn't kill the character but they'd go into shock and get removed from the party but you could get them back by restoring or replacing a limb. It was a very brutal and binary system as dismemberment occured from specific attacks and could only be avoided by wearing armour covering the limbs however it could be adapted to be more robust. For example, F&H used a damage threshold approach whereby the defense stat was subtracted from incoming damage so a zero damage result could occur. This could be extended for hit locations by rolling a die to determine where it landed (ie. a d20 with1-10 for body hits and 11-19 for different limvs at 2pt intervals and 20 is the head) and then the value after defense is deducted determines a bruise, cut, fracture or dismemberment. Essentially all "damage" is a status effect with dismemberment of the torso or head being instantly fatal if those body parts are vital to the character's race. This creates both an intuitive and diverse system whereby you may have to make some very hard or tactical choices. In combat you may choose to literally disarm an enemy who has a legendary sword to gain the advantage or purposely choose to cut off a poisoned leg that was bitten by a snake before the toxins reach the torso.

[@Wilhuf1]

Star Wars Edge of the Empire RPG uses strain. It’s a resource characters can use to push themselves to take extra actions, but if they run out of strain they go unconscious. Opponents can also attack character strain pools

[@darcyw156]

Love you vids Daniel! Optional damage is not used often enough. I think we rely on hp as a catch all for punishing the PCs. I agree we should look at other areas of the character sheet to affect in various situations.

[@BanditsKeep]

Very true!

[@grantdixson1442]

I think half the things mentioned still involved rest before a "big fight" ie exhaustion and sickness and the other half still sounded like it would hamstring you in a big fight as bad or worse than having taken hit point damage ie attribute and equipment damage.

[@BanditsKeep]

Perhaps, but they have different means to be overcome. Also you can suffer from multiple and not reach zero hp/be dead.

[@tagg1080]

Have you had a chance to check out dragons beyond yet? Its an od&d playtest that was recently uncovered and cleaned up to be playable. It has a fascinating spin on the 2d6 weapon/armor chart that also uses hit points. I have been using a variation of it for a while now. Very fun.

[@BanditsKeep]

I watched a few of the making of videos and read the original document they are working from. Interesting stuff.

[@LuizPaiva2077]

The more I come across this topic, the more I realize people forget that RPGs ARE games. And when they’re faced with this reality, like when they come across hit points, attribute points or whatever pois, they get frustrated and start pointing out the inconsistencies between the mechanics of the game and what would be "realistic" inside the fiction. I think the solution might be right there in the name: RPG - It’s a game, and you role-play as you want, translating the mechanics into the fiction you’ve created After all, we’re not playing RPorG, right? Thanks again for the great content, Daniel!

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@Dinofaustivoro]

Im trying a homebrew without HP, so damage goes to ability scores. I find that having HP and CON is double dipping, tipple if you count STR. Ability scores dont scale with leves, and start at the equivalent of 3d6 which is the sweat spot for me

[@onetruetroy]

Terrific video. Realism, abstraction, conversion, metaphor, analogy, complication, simplicity…there are many game systems that capture certain aspects ideally but sacrifice other gaming experiences on a temporarily ir continually. That was intentionally open-ended because I don’t know of any game that does everything perfectly. I like roleplay and have enjoyed sessions where our gaming group spent real hours exploring a city and surrounding wild areas without rolling a single die. Then we switched to combat because of an encounter, but did we have to switch? Are hit points now the measure of this part of the game? - I love dice and how companies create all of the wonderful types, colors and styles. I buy them and seldom use them. I want to but most roleplay systems employ the same mechanic: roll dice, reduce a current total or change a status. Then that must be translated in a way that has the intended effect. Is there a system that uses dice directly without having to maintain a separate tally?

[@Merializer]

Helpful. Thanks.

[@andrewmueller23]

The system I really liked was Rimworld. It had specific body parts and the effects of damage related to what happened to those parts. Much more detailed and interesting than a simple 13 hp overall.

[@nin0f]

0:51 Ok, I'm certainly biased about it, because I'm making a system with “deadly spellcasting”, but I disagree: there's nothing inherently wrong in using HP this way, as long as you account for it in design. Personally, I don't use it as damage, and HP's in my game called Stamina Points, to point out that they are not specifically about taking hits. in my system it allows for more player choice during player creation as well as in the play. I think, the key here, is to make “damage” relatively small and give a player a lot of control over it (i.e. not make it random). That being said, I also use other resources, such as Hit Dice, Exhaustion, Traumas, ability drain and so on. All of them serve a specific purpose, tho

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, not my thing but certainly a popular option.

[@yourseatatthetable]

While I have long used HP's just like most gamers sitting at the table, I took a different approach for my would-be game. As I got older and played more systems the more I have become convinced the D&D model is flawed. For my game, I figured that people are soft, meaning, it really doesn't take much to off one of us but it also is clear that a whole lot of 'other things' helps protect, stop, or mitigate damage before getting to that soft stuff. I settled on assigning a fixed amount of Body Points based upon a genome's size. Human's, for example, are Medium, so they have 3.0 (30) BP. Then we use armor, cybernetics, bio-organics, shields, etc., to Protect via Damage Reduction and/or wet-wear (cybernetics/bio-organs) to repair or preserve to the best of their technological limits.

[@SusCalvin]

In a lot of games you do not level up hp. A Call of Cthulhu investigator or other BRP bloke does not gain more. A Cyberpunk 2020 character is still the same Body stat under their fancier armour.

[@KagraSin]

Frontiers of Eberron: Quickstone has a really great Arcane Duel mechanic in it that I haven't gotten to use yet, but looks amazing. It's called Wands at High Noon, adds that very Western pistol duel vibe to wandslinging. You choose different Stakes for the duel, figure out a Style out of six different ones that are kind of rock paper scissors in feel, then a Stare that is another similar choice based around bluffing or spotting a bluff. If one or both of the people in the duel choose Death as the Stakes, then if they win the other person is dead, no Hit Points calculated.

[@inarticulatevoid]

Fallen RPG from Perplexing Ruins has an interesting alternative. Your character is given a rank, corresponding to a die, new characters start at 6. It is a 2d6 system with total and partial success and failure. So whenever you hit for total success, your rank decreases to the rank lower that is if a rank 6 creature is hit, it goes down to 4. Once Rank 4 is also exhausted, the creature can make a save to stay alive or die. If the creature is hit for partial success, then it suffers harm equal to the weapon's harm points to its rank. Rank 6 has 6 pips of harm. Once those 6 pips are gone, the rank goes down to 4. Harm is fixed for weapons and creatures so it eliminates dice rolling for damage to make the combat quicker.

[@matthewwinans3068]

Another great video, Mr Bandit.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@PetalsandGems]

This is both why I never got into The Fantasy Trip when my uncle put me onto it, AND a guide for how to run it if ever I tried it.

[@BanditsKeep]

I still need to give that a shot

[@CaptCook999]

We always understood how Hit Points worked. How you didn't get hit with 12 arrows and look like a pincushion. We did however mostly play with "Critical Hits and Fumbles". So a critical hit could cause some actual damage such as an arm being at half strength and dexterity. A leg hit could cause slowed movement. Or it might be something like causing your weapon or sheild to save versus Crushing Blow or break. But it was always that "final blow" that put you down to 0 hit points.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@Grumpypapa-DM7]

Some really good points that I will use on my next campaign...saving HP...use substitutes.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, let me know how it works out

[@CaptCook999]

I've heard many DM's and players talk about there being too many magic items in a campaign. But items break and any time a player fails a saving throw versus something like lightning, fireball, dragon breath, or even just falling or being crushed. All exposed/affected items need to make a saving throw. I cannot tell you how many items, magical and otherwise, that our parties have lost this way. In fact once we had 3 characters fail their save versus Black Dragon Breath. Every exposed item had to save. And if your cloak failed its save then everything under it had to make a saving throw. If your pouch failed then everything in it fell to the ground and had to make a save or even 2 saves for that scroll case and the scroll inside, that potion bottle might not be affected by the acid breath but glass breaks when it falls... We rolled saving throws for at least a half hour!

[@BanditsKeep]

In OD&D items only need to save if the person fails the save.

[@CaptCook999]

@@BanditsKeep not so true. Items might need to save versus crushing or normal blow for several reasons. A fall on a hard surface, a giants boulder throw, catapult or other things. Acid traps or someone just putting acid on something. There are numerous things that could cause an item to make a saving throw.

[@chasbrady2544]

We do broken/sprained limbs like this. On a card is a broken leg half speed, minus to skills involving that leg. Then say it takes 200hp to heal that wound and only possible to heal that with surplus hp after fully healed or possibly pouring a potion on the leg.

[@BanditsKeep]

I like the surplus HP idea

[@ansfelt8154]

Hi Daniel. In french (I am french) hitpoint is translated as « point de vie » which means « life points » or « health points ». I think it gives another perspective on what we can make with this stat in rpg. HPs in the francophone scene of non-d&d ttrpg have a tendency to abandon the hp altogether, perhaps because hp to us as « pv » really limits our use of it. Thanks for the video !

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s very interesting!

[@josephshriner2850]

I started playing ttrpgs with the red box from the 80's. I do prefer multi layered takes on general health. Things like WFRP for fantasy, and CoC for horror come to mind. Injury systems can be a lot of fun, where getting hit can have serious narrative and play mechanic consequences. To your point, they tend to be a bit more complicated. Older gamers might find them to be encroaching on the "play" aspect of combat, and younger gamers might think of them as daunting to learn.

[@BanjoSick]

What about wounds? In Rolemaster you just get specific wounds, described in prose and a consequence like a minus on all actions or instant death or death in x rounds. Rolemaster has hit points, but they are more like exaustion/endurance points.

[@Wiseblood2012]

Hit point alternatives I like. MORE hit points. And FEWER hit points.

[@BanditsKeep]

👀

[@onetruetroy]

@@BanditsKeep😂

[@izeckx]

I like the idea of armor damage. I'm thinking your armor takes damage every time you take a hit, and eventually will break, unless you repair it. A critical hit is actual physical (HP) damage. At 0 HP you collapse and are out of combat until the battle ends or another player helps you up. However, your character now has a wound that affects their performance in some way and requires a doctor and/or time.

[@BanditsKeep]

Sounds cool

[@atomicnectar]

Definitely let us know how that campaign goes with damage to items. It’s a idea I thought about but don’t want to give things to the PCs just to break there toys

[@jamesrizza2640]

I like the pathfinder 1e rpg rules varient Armor as DR. Basically armor has a hp value and a DR [damage reduction value]. For example, leather armor has 10 hp's and a DR-2 vs bludgeoning so if a creature or npc strikes with a mace [they have to hit as usual], and normally does 5, the DR would reduce the damage to 3 points If a player had another set of armor that had DR-2/- Then it wouldn't matter the type of weapon used to strike the armor would take two points off. On a critical hit, the armor would instead take all the damage as well as the DR. This could result in the armor becoming useless.

[@Xplora213]

I’m prepping an ICRPG/crown and skull/runehammer meets ad&d 2e campaign and toying with fixed HP for classes. If you assume that soldier is the only useful profession for the character with 9s for all stats if they do not have access to magic training, it really begs the question HOW a did you get twice as many HP as the magic user at the age of 17. It genuinely doesn’t make sense, unless HP is battle fatigue and nothing else. Bumps and bruises. Experience in shaking off off the shell shock. Everyone is one dagger away from death in reality. Great content as always.

[@sefatsilverlake3816]

I'm looking for alternatives actually. Like this video says its cool to have them during combat but they hinder narrative moments outside of it. Like, they can get meta when a player is like "I can jump 200ft it will not kill me" or someone being taken as a host and pointed in the head with a gun and the players are like "Its ok he has 20hp, that bullet will not kill him".

[@TheArcturusProject]

Great points. Things that kill you still kill you. You could rule these things as guaranteed special Crits or something

[@sefatsilverlake3816]

@@TheArcturusProject Yeah, I've been thinking of ruling HP as mouseguard's Hit protection, but the "real" hp is something like "vitality" and its like 3 strikes you are done. Maybe these narrative guaranteed hits ignore hp and attack vitality directly

[@pandoraeeris7860]

Every wound is a condition. Some are impairments, and some are lethal, or can progress to become lethal. The biggest issue with hp is that it reduces the drama and thrill of combat to a resource bar, and every single hit is a "glancing blow" until the one that actually kills you. It actually functions more like a stamina/endurance bar, so much so that some games, such as Pillars of Eternity, separated hp into two bars, one that regenerated very quickly between combats, and one that was more longterm and harder to heal. But that solution only kicked the can down the road. If you want combat to be suspenseful at all, then getting wounded has to mean something. It has to be dangerous. Every wound has to be a condition of some sort, one that will need attention before it leads to something worse. This creates more overhead management, which is why we use hp systems to begin with. Find a way to simplify and reduce the cognitive load of managing a system where every wound is a condition, and you've got a winner.

[@AfterglowGlacier]

WEG's D6 System rules for Wound Levels are a nice alternative to Hit Points. if you fail to resist the damage roll you suffer a -1D impairment etc. up to begin incapacitated or killed.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@Xplora213]

I’m going to use a lot more stat reduction traps next game. Especially dexterity, intelligence and wisdom; I want to use more roll to solve puzzles and hurting the players with temp issues feels like a winner.

[@mikeb.1705]

I remember in Ye Olde Days where our items also had to make a saving throw if the PC missed their save vs things like fireball or dragon breath. I lost a huge number of magic items in those early days to random poorly placed fireballs cast by the party mage >.

[@TheReverendBread]

Honor + Intrigue, a swashbuckling ttrpg, has a really neat system where when you’re hit you can choose to lose ground in the fight instead of taking damage and after a certain amount of this you lose the fight non-lethally Works against NPCs as well. It was built for genre emulation, but I always thought it was a neat mechanic

[@BanditsKeep]

I like that!

[@israelmorales4249]

in d&d 3.5 and Pathfinder, poisons (diseses and drugs) were used like that, you lose some of your constitution or your dexterity Great video thx!

[@barne1851]

I’ve personally always been a fan of the Warhammer dark heresy system. Once you reach 0 hp you start getting automatically critted, and the crit tables are wonderfully flavored by not only hit location but also damage type. Not all crits downs or kills a player, but you can’t receive a lower effect than you already got so the effects keep getting worse and worse. It feels more narratively important when your character goes down because a rib is broken, or their kneecap is shot (or their brain gets supercooked by a laser and the character is set aflame and runs headless d10 meters in a random scatter direction, possibly lighting others in their path aflame as well, max damage energy crit to the head for anyone curious). The real main benefit of this I think is that hp damage is not just some weird pool that is only relevant in combat, but instead things broken or injuries sustained also has lingering effects outside combat, which helps a lot in making combat feel less disconnected from other play. How many times have a party member not just popped up at one hp after combat and continued jumping and climbing like usual? I would also like to prop up the system used by blades in the dark, which has no hp, but rather a “stress” meter which can be used to resist or lessen any bad outcome. Combat failures in that game instead lead to gear being lost, or an injury that causes penalties to relevant checks. Also love the channel Daniel, just found it and have been binging it recently. Keep it up!

[@SusCalvin]

This goes back to the very first WFRP rules decades ago. The first DH pulled a lot from WFRP 2nd ed. People do not have a lot of Wounds either. A starting PC could have six. An advanced character could have close to a dozen plus better armour. Another quirk is Fate Points. FP were used as extra lives. Spend one to miraculously avoid certain death. Corruption and mutation points were used as well, as were permanent disfigurement.

[@SusCalvin]

We did not figure out stress. We kept accumulating very little stress, never enough that we couldn't binge it off. I had a character take a break once and played a secondary PC.

[@barne1851]

@@SusCalvin Interesting point about the stress. I suppose since all PbtA games are leaning so heavily on the gm to give rulings and tweak the game that your mileage could vary. My players would always get almost maxed out on a heist and split between whether they could risk another resist, or whether that would push them over the edge. Indulging your vice and clearing stress became near mandatory, and sometimes they would have to risk doing it twice. Sure, the player characters were very hard to actually kill, but they would return beaten to a pulp after even the simplest heist. In the games i've gm:ed and played they were almost constantly injured, broke and stressed out.

[@SusCalvin]

@@barne1851 One of my mates thought it was a pay points to succeed system, and as old school bums who like minimizing risks through our own planning we had a hard time wrapping our heads around it. We kept planning and preparing even if we were not supposed to. I liked the early domain game. I think the domain game has to begin at level 1-3 with your own retainers, street gang, starship etc. A street gang is a nice starting resource. And its a group investment project.

[@roberthaynes5160]

I hit on the idea that if you're playing with a death & injury table at 0 HP, critical hits (however determined) could trigger an automatic roll on the wound table regardless of HP lost.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@CaseyWilkesmusic]

I Played on a Game Where thé bad guys attacked our strength score. Holy cow it was eye opening to see our tank die from dropping to 0 str!

[@BanditsKeep]

I bet!

[@rynowatcher]

Hit points are kind of an odd relic that no one really questions. They were taken from the gaming Iron Clad where armored battle ships fired on each other to simulate a historical battle where two naval ships could not carry big enough guns to sink the other and the battle ended in a stalemate. Hit points are good for structural damage of this kind as most high hp fights feel like you are just chopping a tree down without much possibility of unexpected results: hp is in a certain range so you can guess the fight will take x rounds. From a game design standpoint, it is pretty good with all things being equal. I do not think it is well suited to a fantasy adventure game, though. It has always stood out to me as ill fitting for a dude to have 78 hp and able to fall 60 feet, and run towards the enemy to attack this round. There seem to be better alternative.... I like giving armor hp, so it tanks for you but has a finite life so you encourage more armor scavenging and spending money in town on something that makes sense. You can also introduce a crafting system so after the fight you can get werewolf hide armor or something like that to scratch that Witcher itch. One hit per item like C&S or Viking death squad seems too extreme on the other end; my sheild crumbles to dust if it gets hit by one arrow? Too simple to be practical. I think so many wound systems exist because of the hp bloat issue. You took a max damage on a lightning bolt; that should have a different response than, "meh, let me go take a nap when I get time." Other systems exist; meat points are a popular osr one, wound boxes like vampire where the damage determines how fast you heal, wounds like Savage Worlds, Aspects like FATE, a Clock like pbta games... whatever you choose is relative to the kind of game you are trying to play.

[@Ptaku93]

Into the Odd and Mausritter mentioned, let's goooo

[@BanditsKeep]

🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@atomicnectar]

I love hot points actually the only annoying part is tracking them between my three gobos the shaman and the PCs it’s like I’m playing an accounting simulator 💀 😵‍💫

[@Joshuazx]

I have been gaming since I was a baby. I love Hit Points in moderate amounts. It's too easy to track. I don't think I will ever give it up. I don't think I need to simulate injuries with another mechanic. I say that, but no speech mechanics was extreme to me when I first heard the idea, now I hate speech mechanics.

[@mkklassicmk3895]

There are other simple ways to use a system of injuries that is just as easy as HP. I use something pretty easy and much more intuitive than HP.

[@Joshuazx]

@@mkklassicmk3895 such as?

[@LordRodri]

Hit Points as literal "body chunks" (so no hit point inflation) plus Fatigue Points as stamina.

[@BanditsKeep]

That could work for sure

[@09lonedrone]

I've been enjoying the idea of armor pieces being destroyed.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@SusCalvin]

One of my mates tried wear for armour. Armour became ablative hp. Bigger armour has more uses and each use absorbs more damage. Maintaining armour became a cost. A mail suit had to be cared for.

[@samchafin4623]

Hit points are intuitive and nearly self-explanatory, and so work really well as long as the numbers don't get too high. Once a PC can take more than about 5 hits worth of attacks, I think they start to get cumbersome. That said, always infavor of attacking those other things on the sheet - abilities, stats, equipment. Foes or obstacles that do this immediately stand out, representing a new kind of threat. I also think it can be better than counting a powerful monster as a big bag of hit points to make PCs do the same thing - they have to achieve 3 unusually powerful hits against the creature - magical weapons made for slaying that thing, dropping boulders onto it, push it off a cliff, etc. Invite them to think outside the box of a drawn out slog of "doing damage."

[@MrMuddyWheels]

New 5e exhaustion is -2 on checks and -10 speed per level of exhaustion and at 6 levels you die

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s nice and simple.

[@BlackJar72]

I'd rather just keep it simple and use hit points for anything that involves actual damage to characters, in or out of combat. Now, if I want to have something involving exhaustion, I'd rather either create a separate pool of stamina points or have special status for it.

[@BanditsKeep]

I can understand that

[@nanomario]

Broken Compass uses Luck, similar to uncharted. Each attack reduces your luck, which is your innate ability to avoid death. At 0 luck you are still alive and able to act, but if you get hit by somethig that would kill you, you die.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@aforest2802]

One point penalties in OD&D are satisfying if the game is one is which exhaustion actually affects the character, as in a non-heroic game. Hero level characters are not subject to exhaustion, something also observed in Swords & Spells. Exhaustion dovetails with the elegance of the hit point concept as long characters scale with mortal danger like weapon damage. So much of the alternatives to hit points in the OSR consider how weapons and traps and hit points reflect Gygaxian naturalism. Unfortunately so much of D&D has erred on the heroic/epic obscuring the grittiness of the original game.

[@earlgrayman982]

I like how wargames handle hit points often with abstracted effects like stunned, bloodied, out of the fight, etc. It all works. Even the crunchy hit point addition and subtraction, depending on what type of game you want to play. D&D is no longer the only game in town. You can do it, however you please.

[@mkklassicmk3895]

If you can do it however you please then why on earth would you choose to use a Hit Point system?

[@earlgrayman982]

@@mkklassicmk3895 because its easy to understand and track. Its why many video games use the same system. Even a little kid can figure out their character is injured and how close their character is to death, which was for the olde school at 0 hit points.

[@TheMrFarquad]

Hit-Points are an abstraction that I believe works well, but D&D has a habit of muddying their meaning. If they're a representation of how healthy/hurt a character is then it makes little sense in combat that you can fight at full proficiency until the moment you're knocked unconscious, or that you get linearly more healthy as you level up. On the other hand if they're just "luck" or hit-protection then there are a number of mechanics that don't make much sense like fall/environmental damage, or healing (would health potions just be fantasy Red Bull in this scenario? Is "cure wounds just a nice pep talk about your gods wanting you to keep going?) Maybe it's not worth looking at it too closely and just accepting the abstraction as it is. I think my ideal game would start with HP equivalent to D&D around 3rd level and then only increase by a point or two per level at most, but that's because I prefer to keep combat short and things like dragons really dangerous.

[@mkklassicmk3895]

HP works but I would not say it "works well." Unless you are used to HP as a system then they are not very intuitive and frankly disappointing.

[@al2642]

You should really check my health system in Dry World

[@BanditsKeep]

Is that a game?

[@al2642]

@@BanditsKeep check your old emails ;)

[@diogenesstudent5585]

1 hp is enough damage to break a rib or give a concussion is my interpretation.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting

[@ilejovcevski79]

As a strong proponent of the early simulationist approaches to wargames and their role playing conversions, i just can't get into the hit points mechanics in a serious and believable manner. Before i try and elaborate, let me first illustrate and example. I'll take the modern 5E approach due to simplicity and familiarity: A 4th level dwarf fighter with 20 constitution, has rolled really well on his hit points during leveling and has 48 HP. He is fighting a clone of himself and gets hit with a critical from 1d12 two handed axe. The enemy rolls real well and does 24+4 damage. This is a critical hit. I don't know how people read critical hits, but i would imagine a hit in the head, neck, or some other vital spot, that either hasn't been defended well, the attack bypassed the defense, or something of the likes of that. No on my character sheet, i see a dwarf with 20 HP, essentially still well into fighting ability, i mean he's almost at half HP. Injured, yes, but not incapacitated or hindered in any way. However, in my head, i see a dwarf with a two-handed axe sticking from his head. Now, i know this is a fantasy some players wish to explore when playing role playing games, but for me, it's a..... i'll use that term i actually hate seeing used..... "immersion" breaker. And it gets worse and worse as characters go up in levels, or roll better for HP. Imagine that same dwarf, with max rolls for HP, he'd have 60HP. Now he isn't half bloodied...... and he took a hit in the head? I mean, if the helm deflected it or if it was a glancing blow, then it isn't a critical anymore, right? How do we fix it? Well, we can for one take the initial approach, and just prevent HP escalation. If you keep the HP low, and say the character has 3HP, and that translates to he needs to take 3 hits and that round to go down..... that might work. The game will be deadly. Hardy characters will be much stronger then squishy ones. But the game becomes essentially a dice roller, and a lot of satisfaction that comes from dramatic slugging matches will be gone. In short, it might not be fun. Not for many if not most plauers. Another approach would be the decouple character health from how far they are from being knocked out of combat. A perfect computer game that did this (IMO) with great results with Pillars of Eternity. Just to be clear, you can't take this system and translate it to pen and paper verbatim, as it would be too slow, and cumbersome to play. But some kind of variation in the same spirit might work. What would be the repercussions? I'll just use homebrew nomenclature here, but i'll try to explain each term first. Let's call what we now call HP defense points, or DP. DP means how much you can stay in the fight. The more DP, the more you can last in open combat. Martial classes get more DP as they level up, representing their increased martial prowess. If your DP goes down to zero, you take a hit. If the battle is over and there are no immediate threats, your DP goes back to max available (max DP available may change based on other factors). Essentially you rest. Now, what happens when you do take a hit. Well first, we take armor into account. If your character wears some armor, that that armor can absorb some of the damage that you would have taken. If not, you take all of it. What happens when you take damage? Your health goes down. Your health is a separate resource from you DP. Let's call health HP. Your HP state influences your max DP. An injured character can stay in a fight for shorter time and fight less efficiently after all. The conversion of HP to DP can be left to the designer of the system or the game master. You may say, OK, but what's the point then, you just make the system more cumbersome and you didn't bring much new? Well not quite.... Unlike DP, that regenerates after each battle with just short rests, HP does not. HP requires medical attention and longer recuperation. In other words, a layer of management that like exhaustions you mentions, can affect long campaigns and dungeon crawls significantly. Can the party afford to fight and half capacity or should they retreat to recuperate? Aside from strategical choices, there's also tactical ones. There can be attacks that bypass DP completely. Like sneak attacks, and possibly even critical attacks to some extent. Now you can have high risk high reward type of combatants, that are not much use in open combat, but if they can land those sneak attacks, they can cripple those pesky "tanks" that just don't want to go down. And finally, you have increased possibilities for character creation. Just because you play a magic user, it doesn't mean you need to be frail or anemic person. You can be hardy and healthy. With lots of health. Meaning, you can take some hits, or resist poison or other status effects, but still not much use in open combat, as your DP would be so low, that practically every hit you take, takes away from your health. Add injuries to the system, possibly as a result of not treating HP damage over a period of time, allowing HP do drop below certain level, or even possibly as parts of special attacks that do manage to land and bypass armor...... and you can have very varied approaches to both playing and building characters, without having it all depend purely on the luck of roll dice! Apologies for the block of text, but you have managed to prick an old wound in this aging DnD warrior.... And i thank you for it!

[@Xplora213]

Mr Jovceksi, you raise an important issue. HP is a game design issue, not a simulation. Critical hit? So what? Unless you are knocked prone or denying the armour, you are not really getting a realistic hit here. Bashing your head is good enough. No blood but damn it hurt. 😂

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@Xplora213 game design it is, but it was never intended to represent health of individuals. Not even armies. When hit points were first invented, they were used to count 'hits' a unit could take before routing. But even when routed, the unit wasn't destroyed. It could still rally, depending different circumstances and game rules. When early DnD was invented, they took the concept from the wargames, in this case Chainmail, but it never really translated to well. Chainmail was system for depicting massive battles, not individual combat. A lot of mechanics (in example the hit tables - which is where the to-hit modifiers for different armors VS weapons come from) were dropped in later editions. HP however weren't. And they IMO, make even less sense then the hit tables did. As for the other argument, is really a suspension of disbelief thingy. How much are you willing accept without breaking your illusion of make belief. And, as mentioned, i am an old guard simulationist. I need my game rules to make sense from a sufficiently rational point of view, and people running around with half their blood spilled, but still fighting without impediments ain't it. Heck, not that i've been into too many fights (luckily) in my life, but i've taken and unfortunate hit in groin on occasion, and even that can't be just ignored as casually as an axe in the head can be in most games 😆

[@Xplora213]

The freakin joust system WAS MY GAME last game. So good.

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@Xplora213 wish i could play it at some point, i've never had the chance!

[@krispalermo8133]

@@ilejovcevski79 hit points = dexterity stamina to avoid or roll with a solid contact hit. Then you have your constitution score. Otherwise just have a trash can lid and plastic baseball bat fight. Or color tape broom sticks having mock lightsaber fights. As for foam weapon larp fighting a kick to the shield can jar jam your shoulder and leave you in pain for a few days if you don't sleep on it wrong. Now as for real armor with blunt blades you are still dealing with concussions, neck whip lash, and anyone that played tackle football growing up, you can get the wind knock out of your lungs and suffer a brain concussion without your head even hitting the ground. When it comes to armor fighting and rolls to hit, we make a bunch of counter strength vs dexterity rolls for keeping balance and maintaining fighting position. If the weapon thrust didn't make it through the armor or knock the wind out of you, you still have a good chance of being pushed off balance and falling down. Honestly after my 48years of life, most people are cowards and small hurt ego run their mouths. Then you have people that like to box/ knife fight with magic markers or foam daggers, all the people I know that like to .. play .. fight or been in bar fights. They all have bad joints and knees from foot slipping and hitting the ground hard. Pull your arm back and elbow the bar or table with your whole arm going numb. Yeah, I am a real .. tough .. guy, I was picking up lunch from the local bar & grill in my thirties, and two young twenty something friends come out of the rest room having a wet paper towel ball fight. Both of them bounce into me with the three of us hitting the wall. They laugh it off and said they were sorry, no harm no foul. My back pop in a couple of places, then rest of my day was just lovely. Then a truck tire side wall rupture while I was putting air in it leaving my ears ringing for the rest of the day. I have years of horse play on how to injure yourself.

[@DeGreyChristensen]

I have three “hit point” systems in my game. The first is “Energy”. Energy can be spent to cast spells for spell casters or to nudge rolls in a favorable direction. When a character gets hit with a non-lethal attack, they lose energy. If energy ever drops to 0, the character is exhausted and goes into shock. While in shock, a will check is required to take any action. Endurance checks are made periodically and if failed, the character collapses. Energy can be regained by eating or resting 1d6 for each. And it is all regained after a night’s sleep. The second is strain. Strain is physical (though sometimes mental) exhaustion. Players gain points of strain if they don’t eat, get a moderate injury, or over-exert themselves and fail an endurance check. Each point of strain is added to the character’s inventory like an item. If the character is ever carrying too much, all checks are made more difficult. If a character’s strain ever exceeds their maximum energy, they collapse. A point of strain may also be gained in order to gain energy. One point of Strain is only removed through a full night’s sleep (provided the character isn’t starving or overly thirsty). The last is injuries. The character sheet has a silhouette of a character on it. When a hit is taken, a damage roll is made against an armor roll. Each body part (head, torso, each arm, and each leg) has separate armor, so attacks specify where they are being aimed at. Better armor has more dice for defense. If the damage roll exceeds the armor roll, then an injury is taken. The difference between damage an armor rolls determines how bad the injury is. 1-2 A minor injury has no effect, but if playing with diseases, can become infected. 3-6 a moderate injury adds a point of strain to the character. 7-11 a severe injury immobilizes a limb (if a limb is hit) and makes all checks more difficult. Also, the character makes regular checks against going into shock and potentially collapsing. 12+ a critical injury destroys the body part that is hit. If this is a limb it is mangled or amputated. If it is the head or torso, a check is made, if failed, death occurs. Shock occurs automatically with the potential to collapse later. If survived, a critical injury results in permanent damage to the character. The could be a stat penalty or a missing limb. If an injured body part is hit more than once it gets worse by at least one degree. If a character collapses, it is unknown if they are dead or alive. When the body is checked by an ally (or 1d6 10 minute turns pass), an endurance check is made by the collapsed character. If failed, they have died. If succeeded, they have just passed out. Writing this out, it seems pretty complex. And it is more complex than simple subtraction, but in practice it runs quite smoothly and it can go much faster than calculating hit points for those who are slow with math. You just decide if the damage is bad enough to hit one of the injury thresholds, if so, you make a mark on the character sheet or NPC sheet (with a bunch of blank silhouettes) and keep penalties in mind based on the marks that are present. Minor injury is a dot, moderate is a slash, severe is an X, and critical is a circled X. Energy is most often used as a resource by the players and only comes into combat if it is non-lethal. Strain is only a concern if a character is carrying too much stuff and they start running out of inventory space.

[@BanjoSick]

Tmr, man!

[@steambub]

HP is simply the PC's measure of risk.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@EJDubbz]

The way Fate handles stress and consequences makes hit points ruined for me. It's so much better.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

Play Warhammer Fantasy?

[@BanditsKeep]

I have not - though I have the game.

[@pzalterias5154]

A con to exhaustion mechanics : the players forget its convoluted rules in the heat of the game, or the game becames unplayable because pcs have too many penalties and it leads to a death spiral. I came back to hit points penalties for this kind of stuff. You make your players use their ressources to heal, make them easier to kill, but don't alter their capacity to fight and resolve problems.

[@mikegiamalva321]

Death spirals can be fun.

[@DabroodThompson]

The problem with 2014's exhaustion system was that, depending on what class you were playing, the first level of exhaustion was either damning or completely negligible. A rogue hates having disadvantage on ability checks but a fighter or barbarian is barely inconvenienced. The -2 to all rolls and -5 to speed per level of exhaustion in the 2024 rules is more elegant and effective.

[@BanditsKeep]

I didn’t find that to be the case, I created challenges that all classes needed their skills. The new system sounds good though

[@patricknilsson4360]

Hârnmaster

[@QeepingItReal]

anybody in the chat play top secret, s.i.?

[@BanditsKeep]

Perhaps.

[@QeepingItReal]

@@BanditsKeep thanks for getting back to me. i really like the way they handled damage and hit location.