hmmm... common tropes in male vs female wish fulfillment

[@patroclusilliad233]

Watching this, I've noticing similarities with something I've personally theorized. The base idea goes back to that basic story archetype, of the knight slaying the dragon and rescuing the princess. That is the basic story on how to get a partner. It's basiclaly 'Guys if you want a girl you have to be able to slay a metaphorical dragon', 'girls if you want a good guy, you have to be worth slaying a dragon over'. What you've mentioned seems to be taking this concept and warping the underlying notion to the nth degree. Prince Charming, the knight and the Princess in this story, are both the same archetype from different persepctives, they are rewards for the main character's virtue/valor, who grants them the 'happily ever after'. Both are rewards before they are characters for the other, and it feels like every character in these stories are playing one of four roles, the Knight who conquers, the princess who is desired, the dragon who exists only as an obstacle and the companions assisting on the quest. I'm not saying people are doing it intentionally, but that seems to be what they're playing out, in more complicated forms, yet there is the same level of simplicity, even if an effort was made to disguise it. Characters exist as tried and true roles, more than actual characters, so of course there is not really any human connection to be actuall explored only a simulacrum for the sake of indulgence.

[@purpelfais2283]

Some common tropes in fantasy stories for men that you forgot to mention: humiliating defeat leading to the training arc. “You run away, I'll stop the enemy” Heroic death Death of the mentor leaving the hero helpless. “I was the chosen one all along” Saving children/women/animals

[@LightningNC]

22:32 -- I think that guys liking "dominant" or "forward" women (in fiction, and in real life) mostly comes from our wish for affirmation from women, and from our fear of rejection. As a guy, if a girl pursues you, then it completely sidesteps the issue of you having to pursue her yourself, which removes the risk getting rejected, humiliated, hurt, and even just sad. And if she pursues you really aggressively, or if she's really sexually forward with you, then it must mean that you're just so great that it's undeniable to her, and she simply _has to_ have you. If she can't help herself around you, it reflects highly on your own apparent attractiveness, and it also suggests extreme loyalty and lasting interest from her (which are other things that guys are really concerned with, and afraid of not having). While "pegging" is the funny meme explanation, guys actually being into that is absurdly rare.

[@spookyfirst9514]

The traumatic past = strong FMC trope can be a sign of lazy writing on the one hand, and a lack of understanding on what strengthens people on the other. Shad’s FMC had serious trauma in her past connected with Daylin, and while she’s a Knight, there wasn’t any real development happening with her character. She was constantly forced to deal with triggering situations, and her actions weren’t realistic whatsoever. Her character was a cringe fest. (And Daylin was the biggest cry baby I’ve ever read.) A strong female character has to have more going on than surviving traumatic events. Depth isn’t about endurance by itself, it’s about making the best of a bad situation, using what is at hand to build a better life, be a kinder human being, and forge ties with others. It doesn’t require ‘great cosmic powers’, but it does require a character capable of basic human decency despite the world insisting she be a towering b!tch. Rising above and not giving up matter, and I don’t think many new authors have been writing long enough to learn that. There’s an industry push to write ‘good enough’, and I wish more aspiring authors side stepped that bullsh!t to create quality work. Indy authors, especially in YA and Romance copy one another in using the ‘trauma=strength' trope. Toss in the mean girls and you have a basic YA FMC: An emotionally shallow, aggressive, hormone addled teen ager. I’ve gotten so tired of this one that unless it’s been written very well I DNF .

[@maramagnus2587]

In truth, trauma creates a hard, brittle exterior that hurts your connections to other people and the world, and takes dealing with that trauma to begin to form better relationships, to think better of yourself and others. The problem is that our media landscape uses trauma as a shorthand for "character growth", and that rings hollow to anyone who's dealt with trauma. To deal with trauma you have to process it, you have to understand it, and you have to let go of what hurt you to grow and change and heal. I'm the type of person who loves a rollicking good adventure and I also enjoy stories with characters undergoing hardship and traumatic events, but the trauma has to be dealt with in a realistic way, the characters have to be undergoing hardship for a reason. A lot of authors who don't give their characters interior lives don't understand the need to process trauma. If you write a story like Shadow of the Conqueror those characters need to have internal lives and deal with their trauma but instead Shad writes them as cardboard cutouts draped in tropes.

[@spookyfirst9514]

@@maramagnus2587 an author can’t write what they don’t either experience, research, or know someone who’s experienced it firsthand. TA White is a favorite Indy author who has a series called ‘The Broken Lands’. In it is a character who’s vocation is a ‘Horse Mistress’. She can ‘horse whisper’ and actually understand horses and other animals. She cares for herds of horses for a nomadic tribe. The author knew nothing about horses or their behavior before she wrote this character. I was impressed, because I had relatives who rode horses and raised them. I couldn’t tell she did it all through research. Shad wasn’t interested in his FMC . He had a huge epic vision that he just didn’t have the chops to pull off. It should have been a graphic novel from the start. Those rely on visuals more than interior development. I agree with you. When I read about a character going through traumatic events, if it isn’t being dealt with well within the story world it breaks the immersion.

[@tropetrinitytrilogy8533]

I've read more books by women, so I see female wish fulfillment more often, and this is really accurate. I especially hate the mean girl rival. Lore Olympus does a lot of these female wish fufillments, except the guy is in the abusive relationship with the mean girl, and they cheat on her. It's interesting seeing how these wish fulfilments parallel so much with different reasons. I think in male wish fulfillment the guy being forgiven for everything is because he was right to do it or is so good now so he's the redeemed hero; whereas, in female wish fulfilments the reason he was bad is to contrast how she is so pure and amazing that her love changes him and how he is bad, but she is so special that either he could never hurt her or that she changes him. Also, it also goes along with how a good guy will love her, but still strive to be good while a.bad guy will destroy the world to save her so she is is main priority and comes before everything. The bad man being forgiving in the male fantasy is because he's special, while in the female fantasy, it's because she's special.

[@Drago5899]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa SHADow of the Conqueror is NOT male wish fulfillment. It's some weird Mormon fan fiction used to justify the "bad thoughts" shad has in his head all the time.

[@marocat4749]

Yes its bad mormon whatever you want to call it :P And there are mormon tropes that apeare fairly often, maybe talking to divine beings and chosen somehow is, or other, mormons are so big in the industry that, there are probably noteworthy, so it should be called bad mormon what the hell

[@Zeni-th.]

As a male, I can confirm

[@DL-idk]

Glad to know that it’s not a male wish fulfillment to commit g*cide, r*pes, becomes a vastly hated dictator and manages to get away with it. 😅

[@XanderR1985]

I think tropes can help convey information and ideas quickly, but with modern literature, it should be on the author to find more creative ways to incorporate them into the story, even if they don't want to outright subvert said tropes. Also, loved the video!

[@XanderR1985]

I should also add that the inclusion of tropes also has the potential to make us question our own implicit biases in a way that could lead to healthy conversations. Not necessarily to push or change a narrative, but rather gives us pause to question why narratives exist and what they mean in the context of the society we live in. They give us a chance to see both the commonalities and the differences that make our existence beautifully fascinating.

[@talexratcliffe]

I see my book in the thumbnail. I'm scared.

[@talexratcliffe]

I watched the video. I'm less scared now.

[@spookyfirst9514]

@@talexratcliffe 🌹

[@KirkpattieCake]

Just wait until Thursday, then we will see lol.

[@talexratcliffe]

@@KirkpattieCake lol, just when I started to feel safe.

[@grzegorzwielgus6092]

​@talexratcliffe Those comments were a short thriller in itself ❤

[@keslieorear5906]

Interesting. I think you summed up the reasoning pretty accurately. I feel like the girls in competition thing is a little outdated though since any female wish fulfillment story that uses the mean girl trope is usually completely ripped to shreds; especially in romance. Granted I haven’t read a lot of Romantasy, female sci fi, etc, so I could be wrong.

[@tropetrinitytrilogy8533]

I've seen it still. I think it's disguised better now by making most of the girls good, but exist purely to support the main character.

[@SuMontienne]

i love your wall

[@ryuwaizu9087]

The difference in how power is obtained has been really interesting for me to think about, lack of growth mindset seems to be a pretty common problem for women. To clarify this, talking to men about doing things normally tends towards 'I dont know how to build a house' and women tend towards 'I couldnt build a house (and would never be able to)'. Although I'm normally talking about STEM subjects, so that could play in. I can't imagine why really. I'd be interested if anyone has any ideas.

[@Babblecat3000]

Men are supposed to go out into the world and do things, and women are supposed to stay home and look after it. Maybe that's why men default to outgoing confidence, and women default to acceptance of limitations.

[@ryuwaizu9087]

@@Babblecat3000 If your description on women's purpose wasn't shown to give everyone depression I might agree with you! As it stands, I'm willing to accept women should be the primary caregivers of children although everything I've read in terms of stats has shown men actually do a better job. I dont have enough information on the methodology or cultural variables to draw definite conclusions broadly about gender from those stats though. I obviously entertain theories but seeing as I'm not an expert, and I haven't put any significant time into research I'll refrain from spreading those online. Being outgoing and confident is very helpful in raising kids, same with a willingness to try new things especially ones you're bad at. It encourages growth mindset and discourages perfectionism in both short and long term development. This actually has led to a theory that parents are less likely to do things that make them struggle in front of female children, guys will go camping and struggle with tents and nature plus other cultural activities and women focus more on things they already do well creating a self replicating spiral. Obviously there are exceptions, to many people not to have them.

[@marocat4749]

Not sure if the oh powerless or weak but becoming op is a gender thing because its pretty common in like isekai?! And othe rmedia. It could be just wanting the feeling powerless toward really being powerful growth all alog thing?! Oh yes there are often assertive woman that sometimes is a straight up domme coded character in media. At least often enough its common. Maybe its a kink thing but also, yeah people love often a badass sometimes villainess that gives them attention?! Dunno how often but common enough. But dunno if its a kink think or not. Is the i can fix him/her also and bad boys, that to be fair can be a great trope, and fulfill as boths empowerment while being flawed and explored. And bad boy/girl are a good example how tropes depend if you are lazy with them otr use them as bassis fore a character thats at least having different dimensions or traits that make them feel less one note while working.

[@ArvelDreth]

I feel like "character forgiven for everything" is wish fulfillment that I see for both men and women tbh, you see plenty of fiction written by women for women with female protagonists where women or at least the female protagonist is let off the hook for everything all the time.

[@Joemamainurwalls]

Now I kind of want to write a story where the protagonist is like "Heh... I'm different..." but he's just an arrogant jackass who messes up constantly.

[@mittag983]

I have a MC like that, but she's female.

[@Joemamainurwalls]

Finally, female incel representation 🙏🙏🙏

[@AllisonMiller30]

My fantasy wish fulfillment is making a Veronica a hot model that still gets work in her forties. It’s not like I have that.

[@SlipMaker]

22:40 it’s true we all want the pseudo-peg

[@leehunts4327]

How do you submit something to be looked at?

[@KirkpattieCake]

If you just want the first chapter shared for my feature program, there's a linktree in the description and you submit Chapter 1 and cover to the "Fresh Meat Feature." If you want me to discuss a book in full like I do on this channel, there's a link on the discord for where to submit.

[@nont18411]

Shadow of the Conqueror is the PEAK male wish-fulfillment

[@kittykat896]

God this is so on point and why I hate all writing that puts wish fulfillment at its core reason of existence. The reason for the similarities with these tropes between male and female wish fulfillment is based on this society's gendered stereotyped idea of what roles (status) we play based upon ones sex. For example, mens wish fulfillment is owning a woman as his personal private property and object. And female wish fulfillment is to also see themselves as an object? To romanticize and stay with an abuser? To see all other women as rivals? So basically the message is women, to have a fulfilling life is to search for it in the validation from others while mens fulfillment is to feel validated in their own actions and autonomy...🤨 Sorry but its gross. These messages just reaffirm sexiest stereotyped narratives within the general culture at large, which unfortunately helps shape how we view who we are and our place within it. Not exactly a positive in my view, when it establishes an ideological hierarchical status of gender roles in people's minds. It's annoying when these stereotypes are played into.

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

Seems more you have an issue with your own misplaced understanding of people than fictional tropes.

[@kittykat896]

@danieljliverslxxxix1164 how so? Explain

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

@@kittykat896 Confusing fiction for reality. Everything you said was bullshit.

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

@ Railing against constructions of your own making. Just because you hate yourself doesn't mean everyone should hate themselves.

[@kittykat896]

@danieljliverslxxxix1164 what are you even talking about? This is not rocket science and in fact it's fairly obvious when you look at the context. For example, how is writing a "dark romantasy" not romantacizing/fetishizing abuse to the detriment of the women reading it when it's done as 'wish fulfillment' ie to self insert oneself as the character getting all hot and bothered when getting abused? And lets not pretend these books are any literary psychological deep dive in exploring the human psyche. Wish fulfillment is purely just a form of escapism and not meant to make you think. Are you inferring that culture has no impact whatsoever in human behaviour despite the wealth of evidence that contradicts that it does? That there's no such evidence to the validity in the application of propaganda, advertising, marketing, the entire billion dollar PR industry and that human behaviourism is just a widespread psychology con? Cause suggesting that engaging in fiction and its narratives has completely no bearing on people's perception and beliefs, is suggesting just that....which is ridiculous Also why you are you so emotional enough over my comment that you felt it necessary to try and insult me personally? That says a lot more about your inner insecurities than my opinion which was generalized and impersonal.

[@DL-idk]

I think our ideas haven’t changed too much from the old time even though the modern society has already become very different from when those tropes were created. I could read a sci fi set 1000 years from now, and in the story the parents of every single kid would still fit perfectly into the gender role dynamic like it was set in the 60s. But in reality, family dynamics are already 10 times more diverse and complicated. It’s like we are still writing from ideas, but not observed reality or our own imagination.

[@Zeni-th.]

Shadow of the conqueror is NOT male wish fulfillment, its some weird shit that came out of shads mind Edit: nice vid thi, subbed

[@StudioThirtyEight]

Also: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZKWfquHhKmAfKc

[@kimilynP]

it's fascinating how all of these tropes are so centered in hetero-patriarchy and I wonder if these are actually what people want or if they are just what people think they're supposed to want because it's the cultural expectation

[@Babblecat3000]

Good video, as with so many of your videos. Men and women both want one thing - power. Men want it over other men, and by extension women. Women want it over men, and by extension women and God and the entire universe itself 😂

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

Fiction is not a canvas to project would-be psychological theories on. That is the problem with modern leftists and weirdo deconstruction movements.

[@3XHS]

Bitch people have been doing that since before psychology existed

[@chaosvii]

“Plz don’t engage with art the way I say is wrong” is a wild take. Are there any other methodologies that ought to be forbidden for our own good?!

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

@@chaosvii You're not engaging with art. You're promoting political ideologies.

[@chaosvii]

@@danieljliverslxxxix1164 politics is forbidden. Got it, thx for that, also thanks for the subtext of no room for discussion or consideration. Very scientific.

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

@@chaosvii You're welcome for giving you the education public schooling obliviously failed to.