HMS Curacoa and Queen Mary

[@jasonbates2687]

A lot of You Tube channels are copycats but you generally do stories that no one else does and I really like that.

[@The-Clockwork-Eye]

Hmmm. Not entirely correct. I watched this story on Oceanliner Designs channel a week or so ago...although that video is all about the Queen Mary, whereas this is angled toward the sunken cruiser. 👀🤔🥁

[@irritated888]

Drachinifel does a ton of warship related historical content the pre-dreadnaught to ww2 era. If you like this video you'll love his channel

[@snapdragon6601]

You're right. I get tired of hearing the same stories over and over. Talk about whipping a dead horse...🐴

[@snapdragon6601]

​@@The-Clockwork-EyeThat is a good channel too. 👍

[@jasondiaz8431]

Looking at you Skynea history

[@MrEsszed]

This sad case is a prime example of two things. Assumption is the mother of all cockups, and Clear communication is essential to any successful operation.

[@darrenbrashaw8409]

Her sister ship HMS Caroline ( the last surviving ship from the battle of Jutland) is a museum ship in Belfast, well worth a look if you are ever there.

[@edwardhuggins84]

And she was on decommissioned on 31 March 2011

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

Wrong Queen Mary. This is about the Ocean Liner built in the 30s, turned troop transport in the War, not the Battleship from Jutland. RMS not HMS. Her sister was the first Queen Elizabeth.

[@darrenbrashaw8409]

@@Ugly_German_Truths I was thinking about the sister of Curacao hence the HMS designation and not RMS!!!! I may be from Belfast but I still know the difference between a warship and an ocean liner!!!!!

[@petersmith4423]

My father was aboard Queen Mary when this happened. He was an RAF sergeant on the troopship's permanent military staff. At the time of the collision, he was eating a meal. He felt a slight shudder, and the liquids on the table shook. Despite being on the ship's staff, he was kept in the dark about the accident until after the war. After her next Westbound voyage, she went into drydock to repair her bow. Even then the reason was kept secret.

[@kurgisempyrion6125]

My father's cousin was on the Curacoa - he sadly was one of those lost. I believe he would of been on watch at the time but i'll have to check with my father if that's correct. He is memorialised on the Tunstall War Memorial in Stoke-on-Trent Edit: Got the cemetery wrong!

[@glenn_r_frank_author]

wow.. so "Grey Ghost" sailed back to New York with that bow damage? I guess it was not too bad on the Queen... and they probably did not want to put her in dry dock in England where she could be bombed.

[@caw25sha]

I'm surprised by that. You'd expect the news to go round the ship in no time, even if later they were told to shut up.

[@skyden24195]

Yeah, the Queen had to return to the U.S. for her full repairs because it was too dangerous to try to repair her in England where the Luftwaffe could potential find and damage her further.

[@Gerhardium]

When I was a kid my retired naval officer father would use this as a cautionary example: no matter what you "think" the rules physics ultimately determines the bigger ship has the right of way.

[@tngtacticalmiata1219]

Well said. And something I've tried to drill into my son since he was little...

[@joshuarosen465]

The cruiser captain must have been incompetent. The larger vessel always has right of way, it has more inertia and therefore is harder to turn. In this case where one ship was 18 times as massive as the other there should have been no question the the small ship needed to get out of the way of the big ship.

[@skyden24195]

Even though I'm not at all a sailor, I have often heard that basic sentiment, i.e., the bigger ship has the right of way as it is more difficult to maneuver the larger mass.

[@brucelytle1144]

Also known by Mariners as "Murphys Law Of Gross Tonnage"! 😊

[@alexsis1778]

@@joshuarosen465 Most especially when that bigger ship is faster than you too.

[@Nova_Needle]

Seeing a new THG video in the morning is like finding a prize in a cereal box :)

[@bartsanders1553]

or in a cup off coffee! Maybe that doesn't work...

[@patricial.6758]

The Poseidon Adventure novel was written by Paul Gallico based on a 1942 incident of a rogue wave nearly capsizing the HMS Queen Mary. The history of this ship is amazing. And the ship can still be visited in Long Beach, California.

[@dugroz]

I toured the ship back in the late 80's or early 90's! That and the "Spruce Goose" was nearby, too!

[@lewis7315]

My US Coast Guard experience showed how crowded the sea really is. We were constantly having to be very careful not to get involved in maritime "fender benders."

[@JWalker6541]

Great video, as always! I've always been morbidly fascinated by the history and science of rogue waves...and one of the most terrifying had to be the one that struck QUEEN MARY broadside in the dark off of Scotland in a storm during an Atlantic crossing in December 1942, when she had thousands of US troops aboard. Would love to see you do a video on the legends and history of rogue waves sometime....!

[@unclenogbad1509]

As soon as you mentioned the "Mary", a few things came into my mind. Firstly, I had a stroll around the Old Queen when she was laid up as a museum/hotel in Los Angeles, and found her elegant and fascinating, even in her retired condition. This contrasts with my Dad, a Glaswegian, who never set foot on her, but remembered her being built on the Clyde, rising higher and higher above the houses until she formed his whole childhood horizon until her eventual launch. Another thing: you mentioned that she was named after GeoV's consort, Queen Mary. Actually, Cunard originally intended to call her the Queen Victoria. Protocol (or more likely just swank) led them to meet with the King, Victoria's grandson, and ask his permission to use the name. "Your Majesty," they proudly proclaimed, "We wish to name our new vessel after the finest Queen Britain has ever had!" "Oh," replied George, "My wife will be SO pleased!" The Cunard directors had to swallow all further conversation and bow to the inevitable. British singer Tommy Steele had an odd story to tell. He had started out as a merchant seaman, and crewed on the Queen Mary. Much later, famous and able to afford it, he took the Queen when he went to try his luck in the USA, a natural combination of nostalgia, affection for the vessel, and a confirmation of how far his talent had lifted him. First morning of the voyage, though, he awoke from a nightmare. As he put it: "Every ship has its own particular sounds and characteristic motion. In the dark, I was back on the Queen Mary, and all that whole life of the successful singer had just been a dream. I reached up above my head. As a seaman, you had a bunk with a small light above you. If the light was there, then I was still Able Seaman Tommy Hicks, a cheerful nobody with unfulfilled ambitions. It wasn't there. I reached instead for the bedside light, looked around the 1st class cabin, and thanked my lucky stars.' (NB, this may be slight;y paraphrased from memory). Speaking of the Merchant Navy, into which the Queen Mary was effectively requisitioned (though she might actually have flown the White Ensign rather than the Red), many thanks for including the British Navy losses during the war. Also to be remembered are the seamen of the Merchant Navy, civilians who crewed the convoys despite tremendous risks, to keep Britain supplied. Their casualties are reckoned to be over 47, 000, including nearly 6,000 taken prisoner. This represents just over 25% of their total wartime compliment, the highest losses of any branch of the services, military or civilian. The UK likes to think of itself as a seagoing nation, so naturally we hold them in the highest regard.

[@Idahoguy10157]

In the navy there’s this expression, “Naval regulations are wrote in blood”. Because new regulations are wrote after such disasters. This wasn’t the only incident of a smaller ship being sliced in half by a larger ship

[@skyden24195]

That's (unfortunately) a very similar sentiment when it comes to air-traffic/travel. A lot of policies for the air are made after an air accident/incident.

[@mred8002]

The version I heard was”…writ in blood.”

[@chrisvickers7928]

Her sister ship, the Queen Elizabeth, was being built in Greenock when the war broke out so she was launched to free up the drydock. She went first to New York and then to Singapore to be fitted out as a troop ship. When war with Japan broke out she was hastily transferred to Esquimalt, BC, Can just west of Victoria. Esquimalt has a drydock which had been built large enough to fit the HMS Hood so she was fitted out as a troopship there. At the time my parents lived in Victoria and my dad worked in Esquimalt. I read in a history book when I was in university this was claimed to be one of the best kept secrets of the war. When i read that to my parents my dad laughed. he told me that every bridge connecting Victoria to Esquimalt was choked with traffic as everyone went to see the Queen Elizabeth.

[@michaelhayden725]

I always thought that both ships arrived in New York still carrying their civilian colour scheme. They left NY under cover of darkness, destination unknown. I though they went to Miama where they were painted all over grey. From there one ship returned to England and the Mary headed for Buenos Aires and the to Sydney. Despite what is said here she still had much of civilian fittings, including the stewards. My step-father’s cousin sailed on her in late November or early December 1939.

[@postscript67]

@@michaelhayden725 Queen Elizabeth was grey before she left the Clyde. You'll see newsreel of her arrival in New York elsewhere on KZbin.

[@-jeff-]

Another piece of history almost forgotten because of obfuscation. Thank you THG for brining it to light.

[@bushwackcreek]

I've probably said this before. As a serving bridge Quartermaster in the Coast Guard and the Navy, I always found that the greatest threat to the lives and safety of the ships I served in were my fellow crewmen themselves. Not paying attention. Not letting other ships know of your intentions. Lax, lazy assumptions of what is happening rather than active taking charge of the situation. I saved my ship 3 times from extremis (imminent danger). Twice by my own actions and a third time racing to help my shipmates when they'd been the first to discover that a fellow shipmate, high on LSD, had set the ship adrift from the dock in Ketchikan, Alaska... narrow channel, mean tidal currents.

[@jasonlawn76]

Many don’t know, but on the Queen Mary was Company A of the 116th from my hometown of Bedford, VA. June 6,1944 most of them would perish in the first wave on Omaha Beach. The National D-Day Memorial is there, just outside of downtown, of of Route 460. I highly recommend a visit to anyone who enjoys history.

[@erikaamot2930]

On a lighter note, my Great Uncle Col. William Gilmore, an Amry engineer-inventor in WWI, and my Uncle Authur David Sandiford, a renowned marine architect were in charge of converting the Queen Mary to a troop ship. Some of the Captian's Quarters' marvelous burl paneling became a dressing screen Aunt Mary had When they went to restore The Queen Mary in Long Beach they called the 2 in because the conversion was done so quickly and hardly documented and they needed them to recall the changes made Uncle Bill also invented something we all have in our kitchens In WWI it was nearly impossible to get large, heavy butcher paper rolls into the trenches for wrapping food or spreading on a table to do amputations. There was no easy way to handle such wide paper rolls with all the mud and enough rain would destroy the paper. William thought to make a smaller roll in a small cardboard box with a thin metal serrated edge on it, so soldiers could just grab the edge of the paper with their fingers, pull some sheet out, and cut off a piece cleanly, and with very little design change, it's what we pull plastic wrap and aluminum foil out of today I have seen the Patent, but of course, being an Army engineer, he was never able to capitalize on the invention

[@unclenogbad1509]

Cool. I'll remember him next time I roast a chicken. Cheers to his memory.

[@DonnyBrook762]

Living in Long Beach, I get to see the Queen Mary every day.

[@Mtlmshr]

Growing up in Southern California the Queen Mary has always been part of my life. I remember when she was brought to Long Beach to be made at first into a museum and then a hotel after Disney purchased her I also remember her when they had sandblasted her after she arrived and had a film of rust and then a new coat of paint. On the tour through the ship you could go all the way down to one of the propellers that they had housed off, that ship left a impression on this 62 year old man that I will never forget! And she is still there doing her thing, what a beautiful lady she is!

[@honodle7219]

This was a nice memorial to those who perished. Many thanks.

[@lawrencelewis2592]

My girlfriend's father in 1973 told me how he was on the QM when it happened. he was an american soldier and was on deck. He said he felt a slight rumble and he saw both halves of the Curacoa float by. The QM never slowed down.

[@pooryorick831]

Thanks for another great episode. You are a terrific storyteller.

[@RetiredSailor60]

My 3rd ship, USS Kinkaid DD 965, collided with a freighter in the Straits of Malacca September 1989. Tore a 14' by 56' hole starboard side aft of the helicopter hangar. Bow struck the stateroom of Kinkaid's navigator. He was killed instantly. 12 other crew members injured.

[@jeebusk]

Sounds like the freighter collided with DD

[@RetiredSailor60]

@@jeebusk The collision was primarily caused by the officer of the deck losing situational awareness and placed the ship on the collision course.

[@jeebusk]

@@RetiredSailor60 hi, i'm just addressing how you said the "DD, collided with a freighter" i understand both ships were probably moving and i'm not assigning blame, just from the perspective of physics the DD would need to be moving backwards to make a whole in it's own stern.

[@monroetoolman]

My grandfather was on the Queen Elizabeth on her first troop ferry voyage of American troops from San Fransico to Sydney. He said they initially had two destroyers as escorts, but when the seas got rough they couldn`t keep up, so the liner left them behind.

[@cunard61]

This same type of accident occurred in World War 1 with an American destroyer named USS Shaw (DD-68). Ironically, that ship was sliced in two by another Cunard liner, the 45,000-ton four-stacker RMS Aquitania. This accident was caused by the destroyer's steering gear jamming as she turned toward the troop filled Aquitania, which she was assigned to escort. Aquitania sliced off some 90 feet of the Shaw's bow and killed 12 members of her crew in a matter of seconds. The stern section of the Shaw remained afloat, and under her own power, she would eventually reach the safety of the port of Portsmouth. Like the Queen Mary in this incident, Aquitania was also unable to stop to render assistance to the men of the Shaw. It's interesting how much history can repeat itself.

[@patricial.6758]

The HMS Queen Mary is now permanently docked at Long Beach, California. It is now a hotel and museum. I stayed in a cabin room for a week. Took the haunted tours of the pool room, mechanic room and the bow chambers where the poor dead soldiers were trapped. The guide described the events leading up to the accident just like this video. I liked staying in the ship's cabin. Sleeping in history.

[@lynnmartz8739]

I toured the Queen Mary... large, but 15,ooo people?! Whoa...

[@robertbeirne9813]

Didn’t think there would be people in that crushed bow section. The aftermath, must have been horrific.

[@Malbeefance]

Thank you for bringing light to this unfortunate and tragic piece of history.

[@unclenogbad1509]

Wasn't the 'Mary actually used as 'prop' or location in that film?

[@joegordon5117]

The enormous shipyard that built the QM is sadly long gone, just a few relics left on the Clyde to remind us of it, but the enormous Titan Crane is still there. This massive piece of engineering was used to fit out the ships once launched, lifting heavy components like boilers, gun turrets etc onto them. It has thankfully been preserved and restored, with an elevator now added (the original crane operator had to climb the steps, so his work day started earlier than his colleagues!), it's well worth a visit for any history buffs passing through the Clydebank area.

[@markshrimpton3138]

And now we can’t even build two wee ferries.

[@DrivermanO]

What I particularly like about this channel is, apart from being interesting, on whichever side of the Atlantic you live, that all the pictures shown match the spoken narrative, and wherever possible they are of the actual item being narrated. This is in stark contrast to another set of channels where any picture seems to OK, and at least one spoken fact is totally wrong. In this instance, we could easily have had a picture of a sailing ship instead of the QM! Mind you, it becomes a game to spot the errors in the other channels!

[@caw25sha]

Yes, I know which set of channels you mean! Their sloppiness annoys me so I never deliberately watch their videos but from odd bits I catch they seem to be getting worse. Still, I'm sure they make lots of 💵 which is all that matters . . .

[@Lagib28]

Yes. Thats a "dark" group of channels.

[@DrivermanO]

@@Lagib28 😝

[@bigsarge2085]

Awesome history stories as usual!

[@timsimms65707]

I knew about this incident, read about it but learned something new today and I thank you.

[@thirdiprodigy3579]

Underrated history channel

[@markshrimpton3138]

‘Underrated’, with 1.28 million subscribers?

[@thirdiprodigy3579]

@@markshrimpton3138 Yeah 1m ain't jack 🤡

[@caw25sha]

The numbers of killed and wounded at the end of the video give a chilling insight into the nature of naval warfare. In land warfare you would expect the ratios to be roughly reversed.

[@danielbeck9191]

Falling into the sea is a recipe for death. Even if you survive the collision/torpedoes/explosions/fires/sinking of the ship, prospects for rescue are slim. Then there is the cold and the sharks. When you are wounded on land, you have a better chance of rescue/capture/recovery and medical treatment, food, etc.

[@danielbeck9191]

THANK YOU for this EXCELLENT video! It is very important to remember the sacrifices made by individuals as they worked for the common victory.

[@kimhowardrud97]

Dear History Guy. Many thanks for your videos. HMS Curacoa is named after an island near Australia, not after the former Dutch possession of Curacao. Please notice the different spellings.

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

Despite the alternative spelling, the namesake is the Dutch possession.

[@kimhowardrud97]

-Thank you for answering. A naval historian said the ship was named after the Island, but the Island was nemed after HMS Curacoa flagship of the Australian Station from 1863-1866. The pronunciation of Curacoa is KEWR-e-sow (!).@@TheHistoryGuyChannel

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

I used the pronunciation used by a naval historian in a Scottish newscast. www.google.com/gasearch?q=hms%20curacoa&tbm=vid&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5

[@mollybell5779]

I don't know how you come up with so many incidents I've never heard of. What a wonderful channel.

[@poetryflynn3712]

These war stories in particular likely come from war documentaries he's watched. Everything else is another story though.

[@skyden24195]

I first learned of this incident when I visited the Queen Mary in Long Beach during the mid 1980s, (the Spruce Goose was still hangered in its protective dome nearby,) although I did not remember the name or type of ship that the Queen Mary struck. It is often noted that on some occasions, the ghostly sounds of the Queen striking the Curacoa can be heard coming from deep within the bow section where the Queen Mary was damaged. FYI: the KZbin content creator, "Alex the Historian," has a great and extremely detailed video about RMS Queen Mary's wartime service.

[@chelseadauer9284]

I went to a cemetery in Isle Of Skye in 2023 and there were several graves of these men. I think about it frequently and it popped into my head tonight and this video is one of a handful that I could find about it.

[@scott9050]

Nothing better than a History Guy video on a Monday morning.

[@LewpyDrewpy714]

Except for sex and coffee with Moonshine in it

[@adampackard3561]

Aye!

[@idontwanttopickone]

It's so daft that both captains were so set in their ways and headstrong that they didn't even think to ask the other who would give way. It must have been obvious to at least one of them that they were going to eventually cross paths with the other and at that point they foolishly assumed the other would get out of their way, rather than simply having a conversation or adjusting their course to stop it happening. Madness based on blind pride.

[@constipatedinsincity4424]

Hey History Guy 🤓 This weekend I went to the grand opening of The Sphere here in Las Vegas. It was awe inspiring 👏!

[@jwv6985]

All gave some, some gave all 😢

[@GenghisVern]

Queen Mary had the same problem we have each morning with squirrels on the way to work.

[@taboovsknowledge1603]

~The final judgement~ Both captains did everything right, even though everything went wrong. When in areas that are dangerous, always be alert, even if you are being told the best of the best are overseeing your way.

[@andrewhall7930]

What was the name of the Muslim Turkish prince who saved Irish people during the famine? The guy who secretly sent ships to Ireland against the wishes of the English Royality? That Turkish Prince is worth an episode.

[@andrewhall7930]

Khaleefah Abdul-Majid ❤❤❤❤❤ he was Ottoman and there is a plaque about him in ireland

[@HikuroMishiro]

Seconded.

[@oml81mm]

The lead ship of the 'C' class was HMS Caroline, launched in September 1914 snd commissioned into the Royal Navy in December 1914. Apart from that one fact a superb and well researched history. The detailed facts of the cause of Curacoa's collision are in dispute to this day (the board of enquiry changed their mind during the enquiry) but it seems that Curacoa was, due to her slower speed, not zig zagging but following a direct course ahead of Queen Mary in order to allow QM to catch up and that both captains were unsure of which ship had priority. QMs rate of progress on the mean course even when zig zagging was faster than Curacoa's maximum speed. An old ship not really up to the job she was given - with tragic results.

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

The second board still faulted the RN.

[@oml81mm]

No the fault was shared, I think (but am not sure) 70/30

[@darringasper7487]

I just love The History Guy, one of my very favorite shows.

[@constipatedinsincity4424]

Hey History Guy ,🤓Alan Hale Jr use to have nightmares of going down on a ship. The last thing he remembered was how the steering wheel would spin like in the beginning of the show. That's where the scene oriented. 🌈🌈🌈🌠 The More You Know!

[@nigelmcconnell1909]

On two seperate occasions aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne sank her escorts. One was an Australian Navy destroyer and again on exercise with the US navy an American destroyer. Sailors came to believe the carrier was cursed

[@stephaniedykes4157]

Thank you for sharing this story. I had never heard of it previously.

[@KJAkk]

My grandfather was aboard Queen Mary when this happened. They were not allowed to write home about it until after it was written about in Stars and Stripes.

[@ninjaskeleton6140]

You should do a video on the aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne

[@robertbeirne9813]

One of your best HG

[@paulmartin6397]

Thank you. I'm a Pompey lad and knew nothing of this, until now.

[@LordoftheFliers]

I was fortunate enough to tour the Queen Mary just last week. This video make me want to go back again soon and see it with a new perspective. On a side note, thanks for all you do (particularly the aviation videos). I look forward to meeting you in a couple of weeks in Germany!

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

I look forward to meeting you as well!

[@davidosberg3766]

Great story telling and rememberance

[@jpmtlhead39]

How cruel war is. 700 Hundred man gone missing from on day to another,with only a few knowing what happen but absolutely forbidden to talk abaut the truth. To live with that in your conscience ,knowing that were Hundreds of families in absolute grief and agony,without any news or explanation abaut the very sad Faith of their loved ones. For some,this is just another "fog of war" incident,but the burden for some others should have been a Torment. War is the worst Creation of Mankind.

[@BasicDrumming]

I appreciate you and thank you for making content.

[@Nicksonian]

Being in the Navy isn’t necessarily a “safe” way to serve during wartime. WOW! What a story! While it seems that such a naval operation would be highly coordinated, it wasn’t at all. Ironically, just before I watched this video, I saw one about the sinking of the Andrea Doria. While incomprehensible that such things can happen, going to sea is, and has always been risky.

[@xmtryanx]

Well made, as usual! It's a shame you cited Butler as a source so often... he's a well known plagirist.

[@soci0path]

I cant tell you how much I love your content.

[@51WCDodge]

The fate of HMS Dasher was also kept secret. Especially as there is a teniuos link to The Man Who Never Was.

[@Paladin1873]

This is the most detailed account of the tragedy I have ever seen.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

Such is war and very sad......Thank THG🎀..... Shoe🇺🇸

[@BenjySparky]

THG you rock! Peace

[@mattgeorge90]

Thank you for sharing.

[@tfp0052]

Sometimes hard decisions have to be made in combat!

[@fenman1954]

My late father retired RN was on one of the other escort ships at the time and told me about this incident.

[@Bbbuddy]

QM is now the most earthquake-proof hotel in Southern California.

[@edl617]

I remember reading about this decades ago.

[@claytondennis8034]

This is admittedly a generalization, however, it is likely true. This is a case of British stoicism trumping common sense. Both the Captains were so sure of their understanding of the navigation rules, that they never considered consulting for a navigation plan. It was left to the Admiralty to take these lessons learned and forward revised convoy procedures later.

[@DK-gy7ll]

The captain of the Queen Mary had the lives of 10,000 US servicemen plus the crew of his own ship to look out for. As unsettling as it was he could not risk them for the sake of rescuing a few hundred sailors. It's not that lives were cheap, but when faced with a hard choice you have to do what is considered the higher priority.

[@lynnmartz8739]

I can't remember where I saw it, and I think it was WWI, but I distinctly remember a troop ship making the crossing and the description of two "knuckleheads" that were wrestling and went overboard. The crew could see their faces in the water as they were left behind. The only consolation to the narrator was that the two probably wouldn't have lasted long on the front lines. War is so heartless and unforgiving. You'd think we would have evolved...

[@singleproppilot]

Not only that, but the Curacoa sank so quickly and violently that those below decks had zero chance of survival. Those 101 men that survived did so purely due to luck.

[@garywagner2466]

Keep in mind that many of those lost at sea, navy and merchant mariners, have no known grave. Relatives can’t visit them in person. It’s harder to keep those memories alive. They deserve to be remembered.

[@MarshOakDojoTimPruitt]

thanks

[@rjnoiseux]

I visited the Queen Mary in 1994 and took a behind the scenes tour. The gentleman walking me through the ship told me this same story. He told me about it being secret for decades and that after the ship was relocated to Long Beach, people had reported hearing strange noises inside the bow area of the ship. The noises would sound like crashing and crunching of steel and men screaming. It was a mystery to those who claimed to have heard it because at that time, this tragedy was unknown to them. I had forgotten about that story until watching the video. Did people really have those experiences? I have no idea….

[@paulclarke1207]

50,758 dead, 820 missing, 14,663 wounded. Lest we forget.

[@j.pershing2197]

The 1st 35 seconds is some 100% TRUTH

[@billdurham8477]

You should do an episode on how thanks to the Ultra codebreakers, the troopships were always routed away from where the U boats were known to be. No troopship was ever sunk, I am pretty sure not even fired at. Or if Doenitz wasn't such a micro manager control freak calling the subs all day long to find out exactly where they were, and letting the Brits know in the process, the U boats would have been way more deadly. PS The Germans knew about 'Huff Duff", but never realized the code was broken.

[@jovanweismiller7114]

My Dad, PFC, Hq & Hq Sqdn, 8th USAAF, came home after the war on the Queen Mary.

[@treaty92]

My uncle was transported aboard her in WW2. He served in the 44th Infantry Division.

[@kenjackson5685]

1st class. Thanks for sharing

[@martinricardo4503]

I read about this in the book titled "Adorimini: A history of the 82nd Fighter Group in World War II", by Steve Blake with John Stanaway , published 1992. Page 15.

[@jetsons101]

War is ugly. War should be avoided whenever possible but self-defense when attacked is a required response. Nice memorial for the Royal Navy.

[@jeffbangkok]

I have a picture of my dad sitting by the cargo boom returning on the Queen

[@craigrobbins2463]

"their lives would be cheap" YYUUUUP.

[@frankgulla2335]

What a tragic tale of mismanagement of the seas. How sad no one thought it important enough to discuss what was happening between these two vessels. Did the cruiser's captain not understand that the Q.Mary was much faster?

[@olofjansson9356]

"He was right, dead right as he sailed along but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong!"

[@MissGimpsAlot]

Can the History Guy please cover the great Hinkley fire (in MN)?

[@glorfification]

Hardly a secret, the tour guides on the Queen Mary tell you about this on every tour (that's where I first heard about it). In this case, it's understandable why the details were concealed during the war. (I'd also point out that, in addition to covering up historical events, as we see so often today, things that never happened can be invented to serve political agendas today, as well. Doesn't apply in this case, but I thought I would mention it.) I would also question whether it "had to happen", even during wartime captains have a lot of autonomy in their judgment and actions to safeguard their ships and crews. Leaving a bit more distance in this case would have been the sensible decision, since any slight momentary increase in risk would have been preferable to losing an entire ship and crew.

[@notahotshot]

"Hardly a secret" That might be why he didn't say it was. "I would also question whether it "had to happen". Yep, he didn't say that either.

[@normandiebryant6989]

I assume the two captains couldn't confirm their zig-zag patterns or right-of-way because they were under radio silence. Still, you'd think they could use an Aldis Lamp to communicate.

[@Cydonia2020]

This month’s copy of Smithsonian magazine has a long article about the destruction of Port Chicago in California in July 1944. African-American sailors were forced to load artillery and bombs onto ships with a minimum of training. It ended up with two ships being completely destroyed, one that was vaporized completely beyond recognition, and the other flipped end over end into the bay. Over 800 men died, and the all white command structure blamed the black shipmen for the disaster. I haven’t finished reading the article yet, but it looks like it is a piece of history that will affect the American Supreme Court in a most positive way. It seems to be a bit of forgotten history, but the amount of destruction is almost on the scale of the Texas City explosion in 1947.

[@dwaynekoblitz6032]

I was stationed there. The remnants of the city could still be seen. I was there when the memorial was opened. Very dark history. But the navy and America finally did at least something for the troops lost that day.

[@FYMASMD]

THG has done an episode on at least one of those incidents if not both.

[@pooryorick831]

I lived not far from Port Chicago. My father lived nearby at the time of the explosion. He lived in Richmond where both my grandparents worked in the shipyards during the war. The explosion broke windows in Richmond, which was about 25 miles away. The aftermath of the explosion is one of the most shameful chapters in the history of the US Navy.

[@normanstanbury3387]

we will remember them

[@JWsGarage]

I wonder when the Queen Mary became haunted before or after the war?

[@postscript67]

When more visitors were needed at Long Beach.

[@samarnadra]

The description of what led to it happening, and decisions made reminded me of my driver's ed class, when we were discussing the driver's license manual and who had right of way in different situations, and the teacher went over them with us and then I think it was him that said (maybe a classmate and he repeated it?), "it is better to yield right of way and be wronged than to think you have right of way and be dead wrong." If _either_ captain assumed that premise instead of "of course they'll yield" the collision likely wouldn't have happened. And the captain who should have assumed this first was the one on the comparatively tiny vessel that was also a bit slower. Because in a collision between the two, it's his clipper that will end up worse off. Even with much similar in size semis and sedans, if I am driving a sedan and a semi decides it wants to turn in front of me, or change lanes or whatever, I will choose not to be where it wants to be. Typically when turning or changing lanes you yield to traffic that is continuing straight, but I am not about to trust that that huge truck will follow that or have even seen me. And that's something that _can_ avoid collisions. I don't mess with trains at all, and that is much closer in scale to these two ships. So I can't imagine the thought process that led to them thinking the inherent survival instinct of "don't get run into by big hulking monster" and general awareness of "don't crush tiny thing" somehow didn't apply in this scenario. Even in wartime, as sure lives were cheap, but at least it we treat them as a wartime commodity they could have been lost against the enemy not lost randomly because they didn't communicate or give way when it made sense. Like if they aren't going to value those men as people, at least value them as necessary for the war effort and not to be wasted. Now my head hurts from trying to understand this royal navy "logic" from the time.

[@petefluffy7420]

I once saw a documentary that said that the only damage Queen Mary the Queen Mary copped during the war was when nearing the dock she passed a hospital ship which, of course, had many nurses on it. Troops on the Queen Mary rushed to that side of the ship and it accordingly strayed off course and hit another ship. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the story though.

[@WardenWolf]

I stayed on the Queen Mary and took a tour where they talked about this tragedy. I'd put the blame entirely on the Curacoa, though, as in wartime the escort ship is considered less valuable, being required to risk or even sacrifice itself to protect the ship(s) it's escorting. The ship it is protecting thus has priority and the escort should yield to it. The captain or person at the helm clearly did not understand this concept, nor the concept that tonnage always wins, with tragic results.

[@singleproppilot]

Yes, 80,000 tons is 16 times as much as 5,000, meaning Queen Mary carried 16 times as much kinetic energy as Curacoa at the same speed. This collision was the maritime equivalent of a semi truck t-boning a small car.

[@singleproppilot]

Yes, 80,000 tons is 16 times as much as 5,000, meaning it carries 16 times as much kinetic energy at the same speed. This collision was the maritime equivalent of a semi truck running in to a small car.

[@TheRiverPirate13]

No wonder the Queen Mary is haunted!

[@hlynnkeith9334]

My father sailed on the RMS Queen Mary twice: first, going to war and then returning home. He said she sailed without escort, because she put on speed and outran everything in the Atlantic.

[@stevedietrich8936]

As substantial as the losses of the UK and USA were in WW2, they only rank 16th and 18th respectively in deaths once you factor in losses in civilian populations.

[@tinamclaughlin1991]

😦🥺🤫☹️🇬🇧😇 Bless those lost in a hidden accident.

[@spokanefut]

Huh. My late ex-father-in-law was on that run of the Queen Mary. Survived Utah Beach too.