HMS Victory VS USS Constitution: Who Would Win?

The USS Constitution and HMS Victory are two of the world's oldest and most renowned vessels. For the United States and United Kingdom respectively, they represent the oldest commissioned warships in their navies. They each serve as figureheads of the ideals and traditions of their peoples, and of the sacrifices demanded to defend them.
But what would happen if these two titans of the seas were to clash? Who would win in the titanic struggle? Can it actually be determined? Is it worthwhile to determine? What does it actually matter? Who genuinely cares? Is there any value to such questions beyond simple entertainment? Why did you even click on this video?
Well, in this my most clickbaity of videos, let's find out!
Thanks to Mr 8 Bit Brody for lending his excellent announcer skills for my clickbait intro!
/ @8bitbrody -
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This video was made in support of The Native Oak. Learn more about our educational mission here:
www.nativeoak.org/
If you'd like to support the channel, please consider giving on Patreon,
/ brandonf
You can follow me on social media too!
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/ brandonfisichella

[@8BitBrody]

You're welcome. ;)

[@edwardaugustus9680]

You did a great opening.

[@shawnconnolly8593]

Yes

[@gekofish]

I was aboard the HMS Victory last year. It was truly beautiful. I stood on the spot where Admiral Horatio Nelson was struck down. I then went below deck and saw the spot where he died due to his injuries. The whole ship is drowning in history. If anyone is in the UK I would most definitely recommend visiting the ship!

[@piperjj4486]

Currently there right now, saw HMS Victory yesterday, truly amazing.

[@marcustulliuscicero9140]

@@piperjj4486 If you go, don't miss visiting the city of Portsmouth, a lot of people skip it, and it's worth visiting, it has some of the oldest pubs in the UK, and the most pubs per square mile in the UK, and mostly named after military regiments too. Also, go and see HMS Warrior when you see HMS Victory, right next door and worth a look.

[@neurotic3015]

I got to see the USS Constitution a while back in Virginia if I remember right- I was only in Elementary school lol. But I still remember fairly well the feeling of seeing it for the first time and being on board. One thing people forget about ships is how compact those rooms were lmfao. But same for the USS Constitution, drowning in history.

[@thatmotivatedchristianorop6749]

If i could i definitely would

[@zjmgx-games5647]

i live in portsmouth it’s a beautiful ship you seen the mary rose?

[@seanbrennan2478]

Brandon, I apologise for being pedantic, but the Royal Navy did not have PT Boats, they had Motor Torpedo Boats, or MTB's. PT Boats is a rebellious colonist Navy term.

[@jamesnicholson3658]

ahh but we did have PT boats, patrol boats

[@andybrace9225]

Also had MGB (motor gun boats) similar to MTB but no torpedoes just guns.

[@494Farrell]

@@jamesnicholson3658 A quick search tells me the PT boats are a very american thing, not british.

[@Jaystarzgaming]

Might as well have SD at the end of the PT.

[@jacktattis]

The PT Boats did not like the Atlantic the swells were too short and would batter the poor boats

[@Neil-jm6om]

Ok then... What about L'Orient vs Thomas Cochrane in a bathtub?

[@henryedge8914]

Neil Waldron Cochrane every time

[@johnbeiner3942]

Cochrane and the bathtub any day

[@neilwilson5785]

Actually do the video, I want it now.

[@SpiderMan-gv2gd]

I’m an American and believe the Constitution would cream any frigate, but being realistic it couldn’t stand up to a ship of the line, we know this Brandon, duh

[@jonaskausch8900]

Constitution would struggle against razees, obsolete ships of the line which were cut down ('razeed') a deck to create a very heavy frigate. The ship would retain the sail area and sturdy construction of a ship of the line as well as the heavy guns on its remaining deck. The british did this quite a lot in napoleonic times due to an excess of third rates, and apparently partially in response to the american heavy frigates

[@Alex-cw3rz]

This is simply wrong 2 of USS Constitutions sister ships lost to other frigates... USS President to HMS Emdymion and USS Chesapeake vs HMS Shannon. Both ships had less guns, lighter broadsides and less crew yet easily beat there American counterpart. USS President having a heavier broadside than Constitution in fact. HMS Shannon being a really interesting case being that her crew were so well trained and implemented so many new techniques it's a fascinating read.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@Findlay Robertson and also we need to keep in mind they were surprising-ish when they were built but by the time of the war being a 20 year old design in many ways frigates had moved on.

[@leod-sigefast]

Those 3 super-frigates were pretty damn awesome mind. Lots of respect for the designers, shipwrights and sailors.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

@@leod-sigefast don't you mean 6? Also sorry but they weren't actually that awesome at all by the time of the war, that's more of an American myth. As the reports from the British captured one's are quite damning. Keeping in mind copying other ship was a very frequent practice, the HMS Emdymion which captured President was from a class all built of the design of a captured French ship for example. This is what was said: President's design was copied and used to build HMS President in 1829 (due to the other being unfit for service due to defective wood and rot), although this was a political maneuver more than a testament to the design. The Royal Navy wished to retain the name and likeness of the American ship on their register as a reminder to the United States and other nations of the capture. And Report were made concerning Chesapeake's performance in British service. Her captain observed that she was strongly constructed, but criticized the excessive overhang of the stern. He concluded that she was not a suitable ship to serve as a model for copying. Her speed under sail was not particularly impressive either.

[@liammccoy2208]

Who would win? A modern missile cruiser? Or a ancient Greek Trireme?

[@SonsOfLorgar]

I'd say the Trireme actually has a chance if it can get in close enough under the freeboard of the cruiser where the cruiser can't depress it's CIWS or general purpose deck guns far enough to hit. This due to the nature of wood & canvas vs radar.

[@Riceball01]

@@SonsOfLorgar And what are the odds of it doing that though? And once it gets close enough I'm not sure that its ram would do much to the cruiser, maybe punch a neat little hole in the hull, but then what? Stuck to the cruiser it then becomes vulnerable to small arms fire, the cruiser might have M2s that can be mounted to the deck, even if they don't they would still have some M16s in the arms locker and then you'd have a bunch of dead Greeks.

[@Torus2112]

I'd go so far as to say that single M2 .50 alone could completely take apart any wooden ship.

[@Riceball01]

@@Torus2112 I'm not sure about take apart, but with incendiary rounds it would certainly do a ton of damage and wipe out not only the people on the top deck but at least the first bank or rowers as well, maybe more if they're using armor piercing incendiary rounds. Go through multiple decks while settings things on fire along the way.

[@alexhoughton3305]

Sid Meyer says spearmen can oneshot tanks so idk,,,, Seems like a tough battle

[@m.otoole7501]

TLDR: If you play God, you and your side win.

[@BrandonF]

Precisely!

[@Tareltonlives]

Pretty much what Deadliest Warrior did: Joan of Arc fights William the conqueror in a siege, George Washington has a rifle, the Shaolin Monk has hook swords, Vlad the Impaler fights Sun Tzu, Genghis Khan fights Hannibal Barca, who is given a brass helmet, the Viking doesn't have a bow, the Gatling gun is interpreted as being more reliable than a Lewis gun, etc.

[@theghostofyourwastedmoney9007]

@@Tareltonlives as far as the Gatling gun I think it's only interpreted as more reliable because there's less mechanically that can go wrong. The other stuff you mentioned are just them doing poor matchups in addition to poor historical research and saying both were poorly done is being incredibly polite.

[@bumblingbureaucrat6110]

Sorry, but as much as I love the USS Constitution she just doesn't match up to the Firepower of a mainline Battleship. I mean she's a FRIGATE for chrissakes!

[@TheManofthecross]

a frigate can out turn the maine line battle ship and hit it on the sides much easier etc.

[@bumblingbureaucrat6110]

@@TheManofthecross Still, If she gets hit it's game over.

[@phlvn100]

You both are wonderful examples for the problems he mentioned with „those kind of people“

[@thatmotivatedchristianorop6749]

@@phlvn100 ikr

[@strider04]

@@bumblingbureaucrat6110 unless the cannonballs bounce off, aka, the reason that the constitution has its epithet or iron sides.

[@jaxsonh.266]

Well I mean, one already has victory in its name

[@thewheelchairhistorian3424]

I agree.

[@tlaloc6885]

@Will224000 and?

[@earth2bob]

Eventually it becomes a battle of conditional modifiers, rather than a battle between ships.

[@raylast3873]

Okay I got one: USS Constitution vs a single Jagdpanther I can‘t believe the Internet hasn‘t done that yet.

[@jamesschardt]

I agree that the comparison of a First Rate (HMS Victory) to a Fifth Rate (USS Constitution) is silly. It's comparing a battleship to a light cruiser. Maybe the cruiser will get in some licks, but one hit from the battleship and the cruiser is an involuntary submarine. One might compare it to a Fourth Rate, as it carried the guns to give one of those pause. But Ships of the Line began at Third Rate. The Constitution was a patrol craft. It's ability to project force was extremely limited. It wasn't going to stand in the line and throw weight in a fleet action.

[@MBKill3rCat]

Obviously the Victory, come on, it's not a fair comparison. One is a frigate the other is a first rate ship of the line.

[@bumblingbureaucrat6110]

Exactly! This video and your comment are SPOT ON!

[@justinbeath5169]

@@bumblingbureaucrat6110 this video was not on point. He seems to be acting like alternate history is suppose to be taken seriously. Its not. It is entertaining and fun, he literally mentions that but then dismisses it as if doing something because it's fun is an invalid justification

[@bumblingbureaucrat6110]

@@justinbeath5169 I found it to be more about the kind of alternate historians or alternate history that has no use. The kind of alternate history that makes the Nazis win in WW2 or Germany win in WW1 provokes more thought and is far more interesting than a situation that pits a Frigate against a 1st Rate. One enables and promotes speculation, while the other is just a purile pissing match.

[@bigyin2586]

Yes. The Victory is famed for beating ships its own size. The Constitution is famed for beating a ship about 60% its size.

[@olliefoxx7165]

@@bigyin2586 ok. The US Navy was beating which World Super power during that time?

[@richardgrahame6023]

USS CHESAPEAKE goaded by a smaller frigate HMS SHANNON. Chesapeake got a thrashing and taken. She never stood a chance against a superior captain and crew. The Shannons guns had been modified with sights and other mods, superior for the age.

[@Simping4cats]

I petition that we next pit a Roman Quinquereme vs HMS Warspite

[@im-your-parents]

Prehistoric boat vs Yamato class battleship

[@douglasdaniel4504]

I actually love alternate history, but it is frequently done very poorly, and you're right that people often don't have a sufficient grasp of the complexity of factors that went into creating the events that became our real-life history. Too often the alternate history is created as a polemic, or to make the creator feel good about themselves. Absent preconceptions and agenda, in any reasonable alternate scenario you would care to name in which the Constitution confronted the Victory, the Constitution would run like a jackrabbit, or die. Period. That's just the way things worked.

[@SonsOfLorgar]

Have you read Joe Steele by Harry Turtledove?

[@leroyhovatter7051]

No captain in his right mind would engage a 1st rate ship of the line alone commanding a frigate.

[@gawainethefirst]

The only way Constitution would have a chance would be to takeout Victory’s rudder and possibly a mast or two. Hit and run possibly.

[@theblackprince1346]

So many people say the HMS Victory not HMS Victory. You wouldn't say the her/his Majesty's ship. Thanks for usually the correct grammar Brandon. Great video as always.

[@sirenswail3462]

Great video! Thank you so much for your content. I am always looking for creators that have a passion for history especially for the 18th and 19th century in naval warfare. Your videos are really well made and detailed. This video brings up great points in the idea of creating competition in history.Thank you for all your work and good job as always.

[@BrandonF]

Thank you! Though, I'm afraid your taste for naval warfare may be far from sated with this video...

[@sirenswail3462]

Brandon F. No you’ve brought up a point about history about how pointless made up battles are made. And your argument is very well made. Also I have already enjoyed your previous videos such as how a warship would weigh anchor. Whatever video you make, I’m sure they will sate my appetite for history.

[@user-nt6lt1ji2m]

I recently read a book on the War of 1812 and it mentioned the Battle of Lake Erie and what I found interesting is that both the Americans as well as the British had plenty of problems when going into this battle, for the Americans a good number of their ships were civilians converted to warships(as in had guns put on them) and each going at different speeds, while for the British their crews are under manned, what crews they have are mostly soldiers from the Regiments of Foot or militia members who know nothing about sailing and the guns are more for close range unlike the American guns which have longer ranges. I mention this because every time a video about the British navy or the War of 1812 is put up there are always comments that mention how the Americans were able to defeat them in that war with almost inadequate ships and weaponry but this battle clearly shows that it was more complicated and equally challenging for the British as well. I could just go on a rant about how the naval war of the War of 1812 is perceived and by the war in general but I'll just leave it at that.

[@Buckeystown]

The Constitution was beaten by HMS Surprise in Master and Commander. It was renamed Acheron and made French to avoid insulting the Yanks for the movie.

[@rascally_ryan]

Neither- the Bismarck would come in with a folding steel chair off the top turnbuckle and win the match! 😄

[@Lepper36]

AND THEN COMES A SWORDFISH WITH A CLOTHESLINE!

[@SonsOfLorgar]

@@Lepper36 Dönitz: Das ist haxx!!111 :@ ;)

[@dannymcdonald9730]

The Swordfish would then tag in the HMS Dorsetshire to preform the Peoples Elbow followed by an amazing pin to finish the match.

[@mitsvanmitsvanio6106]

And then will come Hercules with his laser club and beat everyone because he is trying to fish and all this commotion scares the fishes away.

[@henrycolvin6332]

And then the swordfish would torpedo it

[@charsfm5203]

“Thank you Mr.Bit” I found this funnier than it had right to be.

[@rifleman1122]

Now do John Paul Jones in a rowboat vs. Lord Cochrane in a canoe.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

There is a silly comment around here claiming Constituion would cream any other frigate, this is simply wrong 2 of USS Constitutions sister ships lost to other frigates... USS President to HMS Emdymion and USS Chesapeake vs HMS Shannon. Both ships had less guns and less crew yet easily beat there American counterpart. HMS Shannon being a really interesting case being that her crew were so well trained and implemented so many new techniques it's a fascinating read.

[@dano8902]

I like your point about how when you change the details of a historic setting you might as well create your own world...one of my favorite authors who did it right is Guy Gavriel Kay. There's a guy who does painstaking research into his historical settings and bends his world just enough to turn history into something that is not only his own, but also wholly believable, even with the low magic factor.

[@khateatingcactus]

Brandon is one of my favourite content creators because he is one of very few that can stretch "who cares" into a 15 minute long video

[@alancrane4693]

Another great video thanks Mr Brandon. Highly enjoyable 👍. Alternative history I must admit I find it very amusing but never taken as a state of fact.

[@vaclav_fejt]

I think you could have a nice chat with Drachinifel, lol.

[@lkrnpk]

Drachinifel is a pro at ships though, for Brandon it's more like a side hobby

[@phetproductions5818]

Well only one way to definitively find out. Both of the ships are still comissioned, LET THEM FIGHT!

[@harveth4900]

Hey Brandon, I was wondering if you could make a video regarding the differing pronunciations of the rank "Lieutenant" ("left-enant" and "lieu-tenant")

[@doug6500]

HMS Victory: a ship that fought in some of the most epic naval engagements in the Age of Sail and squared up against ships such as Bucentaure and Santissima Trinidad and essentially spearheaded Britain's march into naval dominance for over a century VS. a frigate on steroids that never fought its equal in size, crew numbers and armament which basically did bugger all to stop its country's trade from being annihilated from 1812-1815.

[@astrotrek3534]

"Bugger all"? We won the war!

[@louisclark6051]

@@astrotrek3534 More like the french did , and even not then not really , you just became more hastle than your worth .

[@dibbadyda1728]

Looking at the modern world, i would say The colonies are worth more than expected

[@LaughingCrowcorp]

@@dibbadyda1728 original comment is delusional

[@jonathanparry7824]

No you didn’t actually, we made you sign a treaty - that’s not winning that’s you being scared we might actually send a full battle fleet with a large army

[@rowlandhoskins3153]

Brandon, at 5:39, one of the questions you pose on the Native American vs European Night "Who is the Deadliest Warrior" is why is the knight dismounted. I just wanted to mention that not all knights were mounted, and it would be common and perfectly normal to see knights on foot. Just wanted to point that out. Otherwise, thanks for the great content!

[@Riceball01]

To add to that, as an Anglophile, Brandon should be well aware that, historically, the English preferred to fight on foot in contrast to their continental counterparts who preferred fighting on horseback.

[@JBGARINGAN]

Especially the English. At Crecy, Poiters, Agincourt, and other battles the English Knights fought almost entirely on foot in contrast to the French Knights who mostly charged at them on horseback. It is also important to note that the English were the defending side in all three of these battles so maybe that was why they fought on foot.

[@JBGARINGAN]

Like the other medieval kingdoms at the time when Edward I ruled England, knights mostly fought on horseback. When Edward I invaded Scotland his cavalry were beaten by the defending scots on foot who used schiltrom formations which where very tight pike formations. The English won however when their longbowmen fired on the compact schiltroms. The English later switched to fighting on foot with knights to great effect. Fight this was was called "Scottish Style." The Battle of Falkirk was in 1298 and Crecy against the French was in 1346. The English had perfected this style in the almost 50 years between the two but at Crecy it was still a very new way of fighting on the continent. Knights had kept to fighting on horseback and continued to do so. The French attempted to counter this and but kept losing to it the same way all the way up until Agincourt in 1415 and even further because the knights charged prematurely. This contributed to the professionalization and standardization of equipment and soldiers in armies like Roman times because the levy system was becoming inconvenient and the separate parties of knights didn't always agree with each other which also lead to more organized command structure. Also because the knights could choose to join a campaign or not they basically followed their own plans which caused disciplined units like the Swiss mercenaries to become popular which further pushed the standardization. This also caused the return to solid formations like lines and squares because the medieval age contained mostly loose fighting though there were flanks, centers, and positions of groups of men these were not organized into official units. Neither was official chain of command defined, many times in battles flanks which were doing fine would collapse because commanders were killed and orders weren't coming, battles that are remembered as comebacks because the heroes recovered from the most dire moments are those that managed to replenish morale by either concealing that the commander is dead and his final orders being followed or that the next in command had took over and saved the situation, and would too lead to reforms. Basically the English won because they had more of all of that than the French. Joan of Arc/Jeanne de Arc? Changed that and the French won in the end. Also someone come in here and talk about how firearms affected all that because my fingers are getting tired writing this.

[@Tareltonlives]

@@JBGARINGAN Sure. French tactics improved. First was the use of guns. Second was learning when the English archers were most vulnerable. At Patay, Le Hire's vanguard managed to catch John Talbot's rear guard while they were not yet formed. The cavalry used its superior speed to hit the English infantry and archers before they could form into a coherent solid block, and before the archers could prepare their positions. At Formigny, the French outmanuevered the English, with Clermont attacking from the front and du Richemont and his Bretons coming in from the rear. Finally at Castillon, the French were employing a heavy amount of guns, and dug themselves in. The English, attacking on foot, were hit hard by both artillery and hand cannons. It was only when the lines were broken and Talbot's horse was hit by a cannonball that du Richemont (not the first guy, his nephew) headed a charge home to sweep the English. Then the French got a rude awakening when the Spanish fought with pike and shot, but that's another story. Dismounting knights was a great idea when fighting defensively, but the French at Agincourt learned the hard way about using it offensively.

[@Tareltonlives]

Funny enough, the Apache fought very much like the English knights; while they could fight on horseback and did, they were also very good at fighting on foot using rough terrain, as racing up mountains is an Apache sport. It was this tactic that kept them in the running against superior horsemen such as the Spanish and Comanche, and helped them against the superior numbers and artillery of the US.

[@j.christopherbowen252]

At least these two are historical contemporaries. During the War of 1812 the HMS Victory was chasing real threats like the French/Spanish Navy. They let frigates fight other frigates.

[@cowboy4378]

I was on the constitution, even though I’m British and the victory is my second favourite ship of all time. Hope to visit it at the end of this year. If the world doesn’t end.

[@melvinnimtz4821]

I'm a bit conflicted when it comes to this matter. I do really like alternate history as long as it is within reason.

[@benjaminjarrett5705]

That was the best intro I've seen in a long time.

[@deetroittony]

Very well said sir

[@grenzer45]

The Brits eventually built some “large frigates” as well, 44 gunners. They may have been razees built on the hulls of 74’s. These would have provided interesting rivals to the US frigates. After all, when ships were matched, such as Chesapeake vs Shannon, American frigates were far from invincible.

[@doug6500]

Indeed. The Shannon defeated the Chesapeake in 15 minutes making it something like the fastest frigate duel of the Napoleonic period.

[@patnor7354]

Shannon was unusual. Better trained than most and using some new techniques.

[@jacktattis]

And President V Endymion

[@FalconKPD]

It's like pitting HMS Dreadnought against the USS Olympia. They aren't designed to fight one another one on one (not to say such engagements never happened)

[@anthonyhayes1267]

Who would win? A 50000 ton battleship that just sank tthe pride of the British fleet, or one Fairey boi

[@kh2b573]

It really depeends on the number of swordfish but the problem is that the swordfish didnt sink the bismarck they just disabled the rudders and the one who sunk her were torpedoes fired from. A destroyer or from HMS Nelson i forgot

[@kh2b573]

@Dod o i remember know it was hms doraetshire if im not wrong that fired the torpedo (destroyer)

[@Oxurus]

@@kh2b573 The Bismarck scuttled herself guys xD

[@kh2b573]

@@Oxurus the crew tried but it wouldnt work in fact if im not wrong 6000 or was it 60 000 i feel like 6000 shells were fired at the bismarck and she was still afloat but the metal on her was lowing red hot and you can hear that hot metal sound hittiing water like those 1000 degree knives

[@Oxurus]

@@kh2b573 True, though from what I heard, examination of the wreck showed so little damage below the waterline that she would have remained afloat more then a day. Almost all of the damage was done to the superstructure and upper hull. She was scuttled by her own crew, the torpedoes from the cruiser hitting her aft superstructure as it went under.

[@jaystrickland4151]

HMS Victory it is larger. USS Constitution though could likely avoid the fight and go raid merchant shipping.

[@theironduke2799]

Its a food chain. Big boat, big guns, big crew, big experience. In this instance is a lion vs a cheetah. The lion (hms victory) would rip it apart. Yet the cheetah (uss constitution) is faster and lighter so it can get away and circle the ship. But I personally think the HMS Victory would in most scenarios.

[@oliversherman2414]

I've been onboard the HMS Victory before. It's an absolutely awesome vessel

[@billdavis2788]

I loved your answer. It wasn't expected.

[@gracesprocket7340]

When the President met a weaker 24lb frigate, the Endymion, which had shorter guns, fewer of them, and no benefit from the overbuilt hull structure and live oak hull (which made the United States class of frigates about as tough as ships of the line), she was beaten in the fight and struck. She did manage to damage the Endymion's rigging sufficiently to prevent her closing and taking her prize and after repairing her own rigging made off... only to be caught and to strike a second time when fired upon by Pomone and Tenedos (two 18lb frigates of the more typical type)... not engaged, but an overwhelming threat was the squadron flagship the Majestic (ex 74 gun Canada class, now Razee'd to 58 guns, and armed with 32lb guns and 42lb carronades). President lost a running fight to an inferior 24lb ship. She would have also lost a fight had she been brought to action by a 4th rate two deck Razee, or to any of the 3rd, 2nd or 1st rate ships. President was so damaged by her opponent, that she was struck from the Navy list and broken up within 3 years. Most of which time was occupied by a lengthy refit, which failed to restore her to useful service.

[@zephyr8072]

USS Texas: “Hey, mom and dad are fighting again!”

[@lebverderben]

I come from a mathematics background in my formal training but am a historian by trade. In mathematics, we have a type of problem that we call a "motivating question". This is a question, hypothesis, or problem that can be utterly nonsensical or illogical in its own right that serves to push us into different areas of mathematical research. These questions, though not of any inherent research value on their own, are incredibly valuable to math as a way to make people ask new and different questions. In my own experience with history, alternative histories and absurd versus scenarios serve a similar purpose. Obviously, they can be just as dangerous and wasteful as you imply. However, it is just as possible for the what-if's of history to inspire people to do serious research and answer new questions.

[@patriciusvunkempen102]

great intro love it

[@evanrester6832]

Seventieth! Great Video My Lord, Huzzay!

[@psup8]

Don't mess with the HMS ;)

[@lordexmouth1217]

That's an easy question to answer. If the Constitution didn't avoid the fight (which she would) then the Victory would blow her out of the water.

[@rick081956]

Been on both, twice. Both did the job, both are impressive. As an American, sure I could come up with reason for various outcomes, but I have to say, The Victory is a third larger, with almost twice the guns. Vegas would put odds on the Victory, how could you not. But, it would require all went well for her also, which we know doesn't always happen in war. So, be happy, if you can tour both ships, they are impressive,. They would today be manned by sailors that respect and like each other, that is what counts.

[@edwardaugustus9680]

4:16 the Armchair generals are not going to like that. It is a really good point though. Outside of well thought out scenarios things are kind of pointless beyond flights of fancy. Edit: finished the video, interesting I sort of guessed elements of what you said later.

[@becauseimbatman5702]

I read the title and was thinking: under almost every reasonable circumstance, the Victory wins. First rate ship of the line vs. heavy frigate. Duh I was sure Brandon would probably say something along those lines and was quite interested were he would go with this. Excellent points, Brandon.

[@evelynfernandez1253]

I love your videos

[@VanguardEndeavor]

Both where made for specific purposes and succeeded in the reasons for their construction. The HMS Victory was made just as the name suggests, big, power house for protection and ship line fighting. The USS Constitution was used for raids and commercial, hence its speed. In a battle (And I’m an American just in case that’s important) the speed of the Constitution would only help it escape some of the Victory’s cannon fire for so long until the Victory predicts its movements and destroys it. This is a fight in which it’s down to the most basic, fairly set up outcomes. So please don’t comment on how I’m wrong because facts and evidence shows I’m not. Also, considering that the time of these ships is since long past, it doesn’t matter which would win, as they have never battled

[@resolute123]

You summed it up. Situational dependent. If I was USS Constitution victory parameter against Victory would be; self preservation (run away from a ship of the line) and accomplishing strategic missions (commerce raids and disruption).

[@hobmoor2042]

The easiest way for Victory to overcome Constitution would be to board her. 800 men vs 400 men may tilt it in Victory's favour.

[@hirsebrei1244]

I don't remember which cannel it was but I once whatched a video titeld "ninjas vs mediveal knights" that spend 20 minutes listing advanteges and disadvantages of both only to come to the conclusion that it would depend on the skill of the individual warrior.

[@justinbeath5169]

It was probably metatron

[@Tareltonlives]

The battle would probably go "Francois, this meade smells funny" "What smells funny, Jean, is that I can't find our list of supplies"

[@cavalryscout9519]

The only person this question would matter to would be the captain of the Constitution. As the faster, more agile, and more weatherly ship, her captain would be the one to choose whether or not there was a battle fought should the two meet. The better question would be to ask why battle might me preferable to flight?

[@dixievfd55]

Naval Action answer: Depends on how well the Connie captain sailed her, what guns she had, and what woods her hull and planking were composed of, and what upgrades she has.

[@maaderllin]

"History is not a competition" That's some really quotable stuff right here.

[@joeblow9657]

Press x to doubt -Armchair general

[@lexington476]

Really a lot of this all comes down to Monday morning quarterbacking. Wait long enough and in history someone will come along and say they could have won it if they had been the one doing the fighting.

[@moisesaguirre7370]

So the HMS Victory then?

[@JB-if5or]

Is that the welsh three feathers behind you on that plaque ?

[@sirboomsalot4902]

Iirc the only time a frigate beat a ship of the line in a stand-alone engagement was when *two* British frigates took out a French ship-of-the-line. This was of course the battle between HMS Amazon and HMS Indefatigable versus Droits de l’Homme on January 13th, 1797. It’s important to note that in this case 1. Droits de l’Homme was “just” a 3rd rate, 2. Indefatigable was a razee frigate, having been built as a 4th rate; even with the upper gun deck cut away she still had a ship-of-the-line strength hull and heavy gun battery. And 3., this fight took place in a storm, and only ended when the three ships wandered too close to shore, where the demasted Droits de l’Homme and Amazon violently ran aground.

[@mistermister2291]

I agree! But, in a head to head, everything ideal for either side, I believe the Victory in the end would come out on top, but not without a fierce fight from Constitution. While not a ship of the line, I think she could hold her own and give the Victory a run for her money. But that's me, what do you think?

[@davidspratt4112]

Why do you think that?

[@cambs0181]

I agree! History is about research of sources from a time period and then using them to build an argument for the events that happened in that time. This sort of discussion just turns it into cheap entertainment.

[@GetWarded]

Hey this is Drachinifel’s turf

[@BrandonF]

I was unaware of that channel until now- but I suppose I've started a war. Oh well.

[@GetWarded]

Brandon F. Your civility is why you’re one of my favorite channels

[@edwardaugustus9680]

Channel Fight!

[@fredricknoe3114]

When is your next stream?

[@jedighostbear4401]

This is the Millennium Falcon vs the NCC-1701 Enterprise debate

[@Matthew-vs5yh]

Brandon, I see those unpainted models. I've seen em for a while they better get finished smh. Love your channel keep it up!

[@BrandonF]

One day! One day...

[@mr.gilson2894]

Oof I directly feel called out. "You could be doing much better things with your time" haha

[@Tareltonlives]

Better question: which was the best captain for the Constitution, Preble, Rodgers, Hull, Bainbridge, Elliott, Gwin, or Stewart?

[@leogazebo5290]

The comment section would be bloodier than that of 1812😁

[@ianboyd9827]

twist ending the ships partner up and become the golden age of sail equivalent to the bismarck and prinz eugen, in all seriousness both ships are titans of their class, and their ship types aren't compatible for a fight between each other, so now are both the english and american people happy?

[@TheNightWatcher1385]

A frigate vs a first rate ship of the line? As patriotic as I am, Constitution would be screwed.

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

One interesting point, in the realm of "what were the underlying causes" which you mentioned, was the fact that the Constitution did not have to face ships of the line in the first place. England was in a life-or-death struggle with France at the time. Our 1812 War was just a side show.

[@BrandonF]

Thanks to Mr 8BitBrody for his wonderful announcement at the start of the video! If you'd like to see the origin of that clip I used, we actually did a little 'collab' video a few months back! And, we may be doing more in future! kzbin.info/door/6nkIMNoc3FZQ-ZPu2oMZLA

[@danielweiss7396]

Now you need to do a video about the Constitution vs HMS Guerriere or Java

[@Alex-cw3rz]

HMS Shannon vs USS Chesapeake is so much more interesting the crew on Shannon was so well trained and they implemented innovative new methods.

[@leftymcnally6913]

I get this a lot when people ask if Babe Ruth could hit 2023 pitching, but it's just fun to compare. Silly?, sure, but it's okay to be fun and silly sometimes

[@spikethelizard2770]

HMS Victory V.S USS Constitution is like saying "Bismarck V.S a Random British Destroyer" Like, yeah, its obvious who wins, but it's not really that interesting.

[@sparkyfister]

Does it matter? No Is it fun?

[@russelmurphy4868]

A good measure of how a frigate would fare against a ship-of-the-line is HMS Orion against the French frigate Serieuse at the Battle of the Nile. Seriuse fired on Orion just as she had anchored opposite the French ship-of-the-line Peuple Souverain. The response of Orion's captain to Seriuse's "impudence"? "Sink that brute!" Which happened after only one broadside.

[@fragwagon]

Let's have someone duke it out in Naval Action, the game. Just for fun

[@benjaminjenkins732]

Your right, up to a point. That’s my take. I think that viewing history only with what actually happened in mind, isn’t useful. we need to conduct thought experiments to see how important different factors are, or aren’t. I’m reading achtung panzer at the minute so I’ll give an example based on that. If Gudarian had just stated the use of armour battles of World War One, nobody would have learnt any lessons from his historical analysis. In order to be useful, gudarian needed to conduct thought experiments to see how that would affect the situation. Eg, what would happen had the British let their armour advance unhindered by the slower artillery, at whatever battle he was talking about. I think that historical what if scenario is are useful, when we change very little about the scenario, and keep the time of anylisis short. Doing this helps us see how important certain factors are, and therefore help us to extract lessons for the future. So In the example, gudarian having conducted the thought experiment, came to the conclusion that pushing on further would of achieved the best results in that scenario. He then passed this lesson on, and German armoured doctrine was improved as a result. Sorry for the essay, just my thoughts on the matter! Good video as always Brandon!

[@sonnyocad287]

Ok but who would win in a fight, your Kitchener bust or your Wellington bust? :P

[@DJRonnieG]

Your left computer monitor vs your right monitor. Which would win in a battle in a sword fight?

[@BeKindToBirds]

I think comparisons are a learning technique that humans have evolved to use. It is an immature one though, and should be abandoned as you age and learn more. The failing I think is that so many channels and forums cater to this childlike interpretations and then people get emotionally invested and it retards their growth into actual nuanced factual reality. Video games, internet dialogue, propaganda, and prejudice spread this method of understanding far and it has been a years long struggle by historians and analysts to reverse the trend. Thank you for being a warrior in that good fight as always Brandon. Your humour makes it much more palpable for people like me who didn't come up in the new generation and/or had their taste spoiled by the hostile nature of dialogue today.

[@taggartlawfirm]

Heavy frigate vs. ship of the line? Not generally a contest, unless your Sir Edward Pellew.

[@MissesWitch]

Given he threw the paper away, I guess he saw the words "USS " and quickly changed his mind!

[@kiranyadav7636]

INJ Yamato vs USS Gerald R Ford

[@jimpomac]

The Victory would sink the Constitution by the sheer weight of Iron it could throw at it !

[@christiansantiago3007]

First rate would smack down a lowly frigate but it's amazing they still sail her. It would be amazing if they brought the Victory back into sailing shape and took her out to sea. Boyish dreams i know.

[@canicheenrage]

One thing i'd wonder, would be what progress were made between a tough old bitch like the Soleil Royal from 1669 compared to the Victory from nearly a century after.

[@dannymcdonald9730]

Here is an alternate thought. Who would win Oliver Hazard Perry or Lord Admiral Nelson? Could be an interesting topic to discuss. Both were amazing tacticians and both didn't mind getting into the thick of it when the chips were down.

[@thedictationofallah]

Easily Nelson, he won 4 great naval battles with absolutely legendary tactics. The battle of nile and trafalgar where absolute works of art. Oliver Hazard Perry was also a really great naval officer during the time, but he won fewer battles of smaller significance compared to Nelson. Again, this is an apples to oranges comparison. Nelson fought with ships of the lines in line battles, Hazard Perry fought smaller battles with sloops, frigates, brigs.

[@jacktattis]

Mate Pellew or Cochrane would beat Perry in any circumstance Nothing beats Experience.

[@ThePoeticPariah]

I feel the best way to begin the "Who would win?!" question is through making the scenario begin. For example, what would it take for the Roman Empire to face the Chinese Empire? It would require Rome and China to push through Parthia and meet somewhere in Iran. For the HMS Victory and the USS Constitution, it would require the British Navy to believe that the ship was still worth the effort and leave it in fighting condition by the time the War of 1812 rolled by. Maybe they'd have left the conversions to a Second Rate. Or maybe she was used as a troop transport. There are a lot of places to veer off, but honestly there is a lot of history to twist to get it to work out.

[@Tareltonlives]

Maybe engineer the battle of Kingston, which was a contingency the British had and was the ultimate goal of the US during the war. Kingston was defended by a first rate, the only one built in freshwater, the HMS Lawrence. It lacked a quarterdeck, poopdeck or forecastle, but it did have 112 guns. The Americans did attack it with a torpedo, but she launched a rowboat to drag it away.

[@welcometonebalia]

"History is not a competition." Great Line. KZbin commentators on history (and especially military history) channels should know that. Sadly, most of them don't, and won't.

[@peterblood50]

"They have no chance!"" shouted the Captain of El Gamo. "Constitution" against "Indefatigable" maybe?

[@michalsoukup1021]

By the hard stats Constitution should bag that one. But Im not that sure, there is a good reason Brittish reused the name for a battlecruiser...

[@firestorm165]

If memory serves, didn't a bloke named Thomas Cochran take down a first rate in a brig called speedy?

[@elmamiihen2153]

Frigate. He took a frigate.