Holdeman

[@tiarawenger9496]

"Focused on the system, not on Christ." As a former Holdeman Mennonite this really hits home! Thank you for this documentary ! I pray this brings many to faith is Christ and free from bondage of guilt and Shane !

[@karlawenger5033]

Oh goodness..im crying! This brings up soo many emotions! We lived what youre all talking about! The church leaders are like a god...no questions asked, could never question them. If we did, we could get in trouble. Weve been out of that system for 16 years now! We found a relatioship with Jesus..understanding the true gospel after leaving. I studied out all the H doctrines. I read the Bible in context and realized the H doctrines were false! They were taking verses out of contect to 'fit' their man made doctrines! Oh, soo much I could write kn here! Our 3 children have trusted in Christ after we left. They are all married now to believing spouses. My heart is sooo grateful for the journey out of it all! We are so soo blessed!! Thank you for doing this documentary!

[@MandaKoehn]

We can ask God questions. It’s man who doesn’t like questions. Read the Book of Job. We are supposed to ask God and one another the RIGHT questions. I think the Holdeman leadership were right to look at the lives of those asking questions. I think a lot of people who leave ultimately do so for carnal reasons, not because of God-centered reasons. These folks leaving the churches influenced by Holdeman do so because they never sought the Lord to overcome their secret sins. They depended on their external coverings. Kind of like Adam and Eve with their fig leaves. How well are they now dealing with their private sins against the Word of God now that they are out of the Holdeman church? Or, are they now finding another someone/something to blame? Or perhaps claiming that what the Bible calls sin, is not so bad after all? Real questions. Let’s see if I get some answers.

[@JoshKoehnapolyglot]

As an ex member of the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite I feel this is an excellent documentary. Some of the photos of church buildings, and conservative people shown though are not COGICM in origin. Thankful that the tenets of this religious group are being shared openly, honestly, (finally) truthfully...

[@SandiBaize]

So good. I've been out for almost 3 years. This was well done, ya'll were kind but very honest. I didn't sense any bitterness and I loved that!

[@jrender4867]

Agree

[@mikehill8961]

we just recently left the church my wife and I both and it's been a ride to say the least I didn't grow up Mennonite but my wife did and she has explained to me some of the things that have gone and it was troubling to say the least when I joined I thought I'd found something I could hold onto, but the congregation that we left was very much about the "form" and from the day we left they have sent hundreds of texts and message to my wife trying to shame her into coming back not me and I'm not sure why there has been one person that has been in contact with me but all of the scriptures that he has had me read I've found that they only serve to confirm what made us leave in the first place. thank you for the video and God bless and to all of the ex- Mennonites out there you are not alone

[@amandawalker7195]

I left the Holdeman church 4 years ago. It was heartbreaking but also relieving to do that. I knew I couldn't go on as I had all my life. My health started deteriorating because of the stress of trying to live up to their standards. Thank you all for doing this video.

[@MandaKoehn]

Fearing man is a snare. If you struggled with that in their church, you are going to struggle with it outside in the world.

[@amandawalker7195]

I no longer have the anxiety of living to the standards of that church. I still live to the standards of God's teaching which I have always tried to do. The extra rules and guidelines that they teach are not in the Bible.

[@MandaKoehn]

I think many societies bring in extras not found in the Bible to help their organization function for their own weaknesses. Your own house probably has a few. Like shut the refrigerator door?

[@shawnrosspeters]

My parents were part of this until shortly after they got married. I'm so glad they left before I was born but I also learned far more about how things were run from this video than I ever knew. Very well done!

[@NoahFred29]

Excellent Documentary! Very Well done. Christ Alone for the Glory of God Alone !!!! Will be sharing.

[@carldelozier13]

Thank you I appreciate your hard work on this film This is a great contribution

[@BrandonCornish-x7f]

I was with the church became a Mormon for ten years now I’m just a Christian I feel like things are finally right

[@darrellpowell4331]

Congratulations Jon, this is most excellent. It is not Awesome. Only God is Awesome

[@jrender4867]

Thanks to all you Mennonite commenters here that prove Lance's points!

[@lynne1550]

Jon, I am shocked at how beautiful this was! Just as you handle your podcast with truth and God’s glory as your goal, so you handled this film. It was wonderful, thank you for all you do!

[@jillschmidt4825]

What is the name of the podcast? I would like to listen.

[@travis7155]

@@jillschmidt4825 Jon's podcast is Conversations that Matter.

[@jillschmidt4825]

@@travis7155 Thank you. I will check it out!

[@tylanensz5924]

I too am an ex holdeman.. have been for 6 years and I still am at the point where I’m not sure there is a God… thank you for this video

[@karlawenger5033]

Tylan....i understand the confusion! The H church was our god..... I would highly recommend listening to Andy Woods-Genesis series on youtube!!! Thats where creation started....and it is so extremely good and informative!! Andy Woods is the best solid bbl teacher! He doesnt twust scriptire to fit. He teaches in context. Ive learned soo much from him! All his teachkngs are phenomenal. Ill be praying for you to get the answers you need!

[@angelaeck2256]

Tylan we also left the H church and we have not regretted our decision! I will be praying for you that Jesus will show you just how much He loves you!! The Jesus we knew in that church does not compare to what we know now! It will be worth it!! Courage to you!

[@karlawenger5033]

@@angelaeck2256 oh, I could not agree more!!!!!

[@lenoradirks8537]

Hello Tylan, I also went through the valley of questioning God. I totally agree with Karla and Angela. When I learned who God really is instead of who the holdemans told me He is, then I began to realize He is for me and against my enemies. He will bring justice to those that hurt me. He will do the same for you!! I just needed to put space between me and the ones who hurt me. God is totally for you. The h don't want you to know that. You very likely were mistreated by them.

[@tylanensz5924]

@@lenoradirks8537 I definitely know I was mistreated by them… thanks for the encouragement

[@brianbruin7492]

As an ex member ,this brought up so many terrifying memories of sleepless nights with no hope. Ive been out for 35 years and have just in the past two years come to grips with the truth of the gospel. I have alot of family still in this wretched system and i dont know how to get through to them as they are so brainwashed from a young age.

[@jrender4867]

Onward and upward

[@dgoossen3]

I have a couple points for feedback. First, I'm not sure the photo of John Holdeman is correct. I've never seen it before. Where did you find it? Second, the church shown at 7:57 is not a Church of God in Christ, Mennonite. It is the "Holdeman Mennonite Church" from Wakarusa, Indiana. This church is not affiliated with John Holdeman or the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite. Otherwise, I appreciated the documentary and felt it was accurate.

[@historyhooligan2893]

Yeah I kinda feel like the steeple alone makes it clear it’s not a regular Holdeman church

[@Nakona0062]

Why do you have that music in the background?

[@jrender4867]

Why do you have music videos in your subscriptions?

[@coryboehs7130]

Bravo. It's good to see the stories get out.

[@jrender4867]

My Holdeman Mennonite friend stabbed me in the back when my malicious wife ran off with my children. He gossiped saying, "She would not have left if he had loved her more!" Many church people ate it up.

[@NuanceOverDogma]

Attacking a Church for it's practices is no different than what you are accusing them of doing. This is not done with Love, it's done with self righteous projection. I grew up in a Church like this and was rejected from baptism. I still love them and respect their practices. People who hold grudges towards other believers will be judge by the same standard they judge them. It's foolish, petty & falls into pride.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

I see what you’re saying but you completely contradict your point by making judgment calls on our motives. Which by the way we never judged motives, that is playing God. According to Scripture we are to judge beliefs and practices by the Scripture. Exposing false teaching that harms people is a loving thing to do. The Apostle Paul often warns of false teaching. He even calls us to expose it (Eph 5:4).

[@jrender4867]

Lol. I don't think you know what a church is.

[@timholdeman180]

Most of your pictures are wrong. The churches are not Holdeman Mennonite Churches . I also see white cap Mennonites. Get your facts straight

[@johnangelagoodell888]

While it is true some of the pics are other groups. Most are Holdeman Mennonites. The substance is all accurate.

[@westondecker68]

@@johnangelagoodell888 bull.. If one thing is false it casts doubt on the veracity of everything else.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

If you’re looking for a way to dismiss the substance of the documentary I guess you found it. The goal was not to get too personal with having pictures or video of Holdeman’s that are in our communities. So this made it a challenge to find material. The producer wanting that type of material and never having been a Holdeman included some non Holdeman material. We do not believe this mistake nullifies the accurate substance in the film. If folks are interested in the truth, it is there.

[@jrender4867]

​@@westondecker68True. That's why we have doubts about your veracity.

[@calebalton2084]

While this video is just a snapshot of the people involved, I don't find anything they say that convinces me that they were right to leave. If anything, I see what appears to be calvinistic beliefs and open disobedience to scripture. Would not say that they have become more biblical, but certainly more worldly, and definitely not an example to follow.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

Actually we are called to separate from false religious groups (2 Cor 6:14-7:2). Getting the gospel wrong and claiming they are the only church are certainly groups to separate.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

You are quite judgmental on things you couldn’t know about. For example there is no explicit Calvinistic teaching in the documentary. Some contributors would hold to the doctrines of grace and others would not.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

Where is the open disobedience?

[@jrender4867]

Then you must have your eyes closed

[@dewuknowHIM]

Thank you Thank you Thank you.... For speaking truth..... Being a Holdeman is ALWAYS PLEASEING SOMEONE .... I VE been out for 10 years...and am still shunned(According to their brainwashing !)... GLAD IM FREE !!! Ill NEVER GO BACK TO THE BRAINWASHING !!!

[@jrender4867]

Good!

[@MBDaltx]

Thank you!!!

[@sarakauffman3161]

I,'m not a holdeman mennonite but it was thru their church that I came to believe in the saving faith of Jesus Christ so I do believe you should be careful to judge them all as unbelievers, as you judge so will you be judged!

[@johnangelagoodell888]

You said: "be careful to judge them all as unbelievers". We didn't do that. No where did we make the call that all holdeman's are unbelievers. What we focused on was the destructive errors in the cult.

[@williampitman5262]

We well be all judged by God's word not works but by grace.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

Yes, we will all be judged by God's Word. Thankfully we have it in our hands so we know how we will be judged. You said, "not be works but by grace". While it is true we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. The final judgement will be based upon our works (see Matt 12:36-37; 16:27; 25:31-46; John 5:28-29; Rev 20:13; 22:12)

[@calebalton2084]

There appears to be a lot of concern over whether Jesus was of Mary's flesh or not, with many assumptions made for it. Yet all seem to forget that God is able to create human flesh without a mother or father present, or have they forgotten about Adam and Eve?

[@johnangelagoodell888]

The only problem is the Bible condemns this view. Jesus had to take our flesh to save us, not some other kind of flesh. According to Scripture this is a deal breaker (1 John 4:1-6; 2 Kohn 7-10). A denial that Jesus took our flesh is antichrist.

[@dortcharles2932]

Poukisa chak kote nous pase group Moun sa yo pa janm lib vre nou toujou kenbe yo esklav nous paske politik ki toujou ap like eské nou ka channel prensip Yon peyi pou mete pa pi gro problèm nan le nou antre nan Yon ti peyi nous pa ede pou yo grandi souvan nous sévi sak pa gen konesans paske yo pap fé nous egzijans kou nous ale tankou Pat janm fé anyen

[@calebalton2084]

Sad that none give chapter and verse reasons for leaving the Holdemans, other than complaining that the Holdemans believe that they are the only true church. But isn't that to be the attitude of every church? Is there any church that believes another church is more correct than themselves?

[@johnangelagoodell888]

No, this isn’t the attitude of a true church. A true church will acknowledge there are lots of other true churches that believe the truth. If there wasn’t enough Scripture in the documentary I gave some in the other comments for you.

[@jrender4867]

No. You really need to get out more

[@jrender4867]

No. You are wrong.

[@Lee-xn8by]

Charles Spurgeon said "Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else." The truth is Calvinism is heresy and nothing else, please don't leave one cult just to join another.

[@j.p.rankin1110]

That’s an interesting quote I wasn’t aware of...I grew up Calvinist and came to believe that it was a heresy.

[@brianbruin7492]

Amen,Calvinism is straight from the pit of hell,just like the holdemans and hundreds of others. Its salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. period. plus nothing,minus nothing.I left the Holdeman church 35 years ago.

[@whitdm89]

I really tried to watch this tonight but only got about 5 min in. The background music makes the whole thing sound like an intro. It’s so distracting. So bummed.

[@jacoblitchfield6095]

Don’t let the music keep you from watching and hearing the sound teaching in the video. In other words don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. 😉

[@williampitman5262]

The ones i was with had closed meetings during the times thire sins was told so maney things about them was never spoken about to none members. So no one knows about lots of things that went on the church tried to take care of thire own problems they dont belive in going to court are law suites anyway thats what the church told me.

[@roadster2390]

If the testimonies of the people in this video are born of the Spirit the lives of their children and grandchildren will prove it. If the children of these people assimilate into nominal Christianity then their "enlightenments" add nothing to me.

[@Sherri1015]

As an ex-member, nominal Christianity was what I lived in while I was a member. It’s easy to follow rules and call ourselves Christians…what’s not easy is actually fully surrendering your life and following Jesus.

[@alaskaboy3112]

Sorry,,, I believe it is an INDIVIDUAL CHOICE, and not a linage thing !! It’s not inheritable !! And if I’m wrong, please point me to right Scriptures that prove otherwise,,,

[@brianbruin7492]

You are so wrong on every level.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

Actually truth doesn’t work that way. It is either a biblical and true case against the Holdeman church or it isn’t. The standard is the Scripture.

[@caitlinsoliman1658]

But is is sad you believed the Gospel then your wife stopped headcovering which is in the Bible, why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

[@carolnightengale4122]

❤️1 Corinthians 11:15, 16 and then read the rest of the passage BELIEVING these two verses.❤️

[@travis7155]

I personally believe that if a woman and/or her husband feel like she needs to wear a headcovering of some kind, that's perfectly fine either way, it's not a salvation issue.

[@calebalton2084]

​@@travis7155 depends whether you imagine that the wilfully disobedient will be allowed into heaven. Thus wilfully refusing to submit to the will of God and wear a head covering, does seem to be a salvation issue if it keeps a woman out of heaven. Don't you think?

[@calebalton2084]

Did you notice his wife wearing pants? Not sure what church they are in that teaches abominations will be entering heaven. Or that makeup is permitted. Seems like they are reading their Bible with their eyes wide shut.

[@travis7155]

@calebalton2084 the head covering/headdress was cultural, the kind of women that wouldn't wear it then were women that were not submissive to their husband, rebellious, a harlot, or something down that line. The Corinthian women realized that their works didn't save them and they had freedom in the Spirit that they didn't need to wear the headdress, however Paul encouraged them to so they wouldn't ruin their witness in that culture, because not wearing it made them look like morally questionable people. Today in America it is not the culture to wear headdress as a sign of submission so it is not necessary, but if someone feels like they/their wife needs to that's fine, as long as it's not for works to their salvation.

[@joshuabigdog7009]

??I’m wondering?? Sexual abuse is common in groups (cults) like this. IS THERE ANY INFO ?? WAS THIS A PROBLEM??

[@RockinWheelsAuctions]

Yes it is a problem! Currently in court with my father, as he sexually abused my sister for years! As soon as we as a family would go the ministry they would tell us to just forgive! Unfortunately it took till my sister was 30 years old, and we helped her bring it to the authorities! The sad thing was tho, is our Father always threatened us, if we told anyone there would be huge trouble!

[@joshuabigdog7009]

@@RockinWheelsAuctions sad

[@andrewf8578]

My wife and I left 11 years ago. After searching for 20 yrs in the law and finally telling God that I accepted his just condemnation on my life I was overwhelmed by a life changing vision of God's love for me that there was NOTHING but faith in Jesus that saved me and not my attempts to keep the law. Abuse is not just in cults. It is rampant in the whole church. Protestants, Catholics too. So sad what happens when people have no experience in the love of Jesus Christ.

[@RockinWheelsAuctions]

@@andrewf8578 thanks so much for sharing!

[@andrewf8578]

@@RockinWheelsAuctions I'm not sure if you know who I am but I lived with my grandpa Abe Ginther before he married your Grandma. I left the church because of these horror stories. I never knew many people very close but such a high percentage have been abused. It must be rampant. My heart breaks for your sister and I hope she can find Jesus healing in this.

[@Kneißle]

This comes across as a clever piece of propaganda.... Perfectly edited scenes, music, tears, and smiles inserted at just the right places. Strictly one-sided. Could we have a fair discussion where both sides have an opportunity to speak, avoid all the negative emotionalism, and with a desire to truly understand the holdemans?? I do want to acknowledge that these people are speaking from a position of pain, but isn't your exclusive and superior attitude exactly what you are condemning in the holdeman's? I'm not holdeman, and also have some of the same concerns about them as you; but if you are Christian, it is your responsibility to give a fair and accurate presentation; not to slander. The inaccuracies are too numerous to discuss here, but it boils down to a clash between "modern, western, only me and Jesus" Christianity, and an Anabaptist emphasis on mutual accountability and submission to group decisions, and most of the people experiencing conflict in this video likely lacked the humility to be able to surrender gracefully, or perhaps they did experience real abuse. And no, Menno Simons was pretty similar to the holdeman's; pretty exclusive, and he excommunicated the Swiss and German Anabaptists because they weren't as radical as he on shunning. I say the holdemans are, in many ways, more a child of Menno than most other Mennonites.

[@newlifechurch8378]

Interesting opinions, but is full of fallacious reasoning. Let's go through them one by one. "Twisted, one sided facts" - is this a fact? No, actually the documentary is full of sources from the Holdeman's own doctrinal standards. Did you even watch it? It also is filled with witnesses who lived inside the Holdeman group. So your accusation is false and slanderous. "Why not bring in a fair discussion on both sides?" Let's do it. I don't know how much more fair one can get than quote from their own sources, which they have to believe. I am open to suggestions of how we could do something to engage with active Holdeman members / ministers - since it is your idea why don't you arrange it. "With a desire to truly understand the holdeman's" - This is missing the point. We showed competence with Holdeman views and quoted them in the video. I personally spend many hours studying their official doctrinal positions to try and understand what they believe. In fact it wasn't until I studied their documents that I began to have serious concerns. This is simply a false accusation and slanderous. "isn't your exclusive and superior attitude exactly what you are condemning in the holdeman's?" - This is a false equivalence fallacy. The reason we have concerns is they depart from Christianity on some very key points. Such as one true church doctrine and their view of Christ's humanity. These depart from historic Christianity. The Bible teaches we are to expose false doctrine and teachers, it is simply a matter of being biblical. It may offend you that there are folks willing to defend historic Christianity and expose false teaching but that is okay. "Your responsibility to give a fair and accurate presentation; not to slander" - We did do that. Do you have any evidence contrary? Prove it (stop the too many to mention nonsense). Otherwise it is you that is the slanderer. We critiqued a religious group providing evidence from their own sources and witnesses from within. That is called evidence. What you have done is simply made accusations without any evidence. This is called hypocrisy. "The inaccuracies are too numerous to mention here" - Hmmm.... very convenient and hypocritical. You just in the previous sentence and throughout are condemning us for what we have done but you do the very thing you say is wrong and then say - too many to actually mention. Wouldn't your rules of "your job is to give a fair and accurate representation" apply to you as well? "It boils down to a clash between 'modern, western, only me and Jesus' Christianity, and an Anabaptist emphasis on mutual accountability and submission to group decisions" - You have layed down your cards as to your view but you misrepresented the position you are apposing, ironically. I cannot speak for everyone associated with this documentary but I would guess most would agree with what I am about to say. You are committing the "either-or" fallacy here. There is another option that actually rejects both those positions. There is the historic Protestant position called sola Scriptura - meaning the Scripture is our final authority. Our final authority is the Scripture, not the opinions of a religous group. The Bible would not have us submit ourselves to a cult's opinions when they deviate from Scripture. A true church should recognize that Jesus is Lord of the church and it is His Word that calls the shots. The churches job is to submit to Scripture not to the opinions of fallible men. Your views are dangerous. "Most of the people experiencing conflict in this video likely lacked the humility to be able to surrender gracefully" - Is this a fair and accurate assessment of them? There is actually another answer. Most of these people by their own testimony left because they realized they were dealing with a false church. They were reading their Bibles and came to the conclusion that the Holdeman's were not the "one true Church" but were a false church. They realized that they were usurping the place the Scripture was to have in their lives.

[@jrender4867]

I carefully watched the video. Seems very honest to me and corroborates my own experience. I think you're the propagandist

[@zaiyan5441]

I think every one of you are not force to be a holdeman .it is a choice.. in acts 5:38-39.. so who are we to..you know.. bring into your knee.

[@hannahprosser1004]

Ah yes, good old fashioned fear tactics do wonders for the sake of freedom of choice. Their talent for brainwashing and inflicting utter terror is truly something to behold! You know not what you speak, but nice attempt.

[@teresapeters7682]

Not forced. Gaslighting

[@derrickk773]

No one said forced. What is true though is you will be shamed and shunned if you leave

[@westondecker68]

@@derrickk773I’ve been out for most of my life and I’m not shunned. I’ve felt more accepted even when I do attend church. You are bitter and it shows.

[@derrickk773]

@@westondecker68 I don't think you know me.

[@dortcharles2932]

Group Moun sa yo trét mwa tankou esklav épi yap prêche jezi bon nous pa renmen nwa yo nous trét anpil Bann ipokrit

[@westondecker68]

False. However, if this church is so dangerous why does it bother you so? And, all churches accept into their midst those who have never been born again. To Lance’s assertion that children are being baptized without knowing much about Christ, I point you to the Ethiopian man who heard the Gospel and was baptized. And lastly, I find it ironic how most of the men kept the appearance of the church members. Why are you so bitter? Why kick you against the prick?

[@johnangelagoodell888]

This documentary was about substance. I would encourage you to deal with the substance of the arguments put forth.

[@amandawalker7195]

Children are being baptized into church but not really into Christ.

[@westondecker68]

Lance, you speak of peace and rest but your face proves you to be a liar.

[@johnangelagoodell888]

Ad hominem attacks never further the cause of the truth. Interestingly this fallacious tactic was discussed in the documentary.

[@MandaKoehn]

So I’d like to know where ad hominem arguments are forbidden in the Bible. "And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?" - Genesis 4:6 "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts." - Psalm 10:4 "The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves." - Isaiah 3:9

[@MandaKoehn]

Having a form of godliness might cause one to open up the Scriptures. But it does not make it godliness! Did they open the Scriptures to find deliverance from their secret sins, or to find deliverance from the commandments of men that the Holdeman cling to? "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." - Matthew 23:3-4 Coming to Jesus removes the burdens man puts on us, to receive His burden which is LIGHT. "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." - 1 Peter 4:1-2 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry." - 1 Corinthians 10:13-14 So did those who left the Holdeman church leave idolatry? Or cleave to idolatry? Can any of them answer my questions?

[@westondecker68]

@@MandaKoehn I’ll not hold my breath for their reply. Good points.

[@jrender4867]

Show your face and we will see who the liar is