Hollywood v East Asian Screenwriting: Kishotenketsu / 4-Act Structure

[@th3logician]

I feel like I just stumbled across a golden gem of a video. Like LocalScriptMan but about East Asian storytelling. Thank you so much! You have yourself a new dedicated subscriber

[@vivistory_]

Thanks so much! (idk LocalScriptMan. I'll have to check him out!)

[@chimedemon]

My only gripe with him is that he thinks following the rules does equate to good movies or stories- like he likes Avatar for that reason (blue cat one) I will say that he’s a fantastic source for how to make a Hollywood story and he has a goldmine of how to actually do the intricate scripting part of scriptwriting.. but yeah, that’s my only gripe. Also check out Schnee, his stuff is way more loose feeling, and his essays about character writing are amazing (like all his Spiderverse videos)

[@th3logician]

@@chimedemon Yea, when he started off he had some very spicy (wrong) opinions about stuff (The Avatar’s are terrible movies no matter which one you are talking about 😆) But he actually deleted a ton of his older videos, including the avatar one, for that very reason and his most recent stuff is quite good and much broader but still structured so I give him bonus points for that. Schnee is awesome! I loved his videos on Studio Ghibli and Arcane along with his philosophy on analysis! Other favorites of mine would be ShaelinWrites, Brandon Sanderson’s College Course on KZbin, Film Courage, and HelloFutureMe. Some more nitche ones would be Tale Foundry and Terrible Writing Advice along with Merphy Napier’s Dear Authors series 😄 (I’m currently working on my first novel but my research has kind of gotten out of hand 😅😂)

[@vivistory_]

I finally checked out the LocalScriptMan. I like him a lot! Thanks!

[@the7thseven873]

Of all the videos I’ve watched. This one, FINALLY! Made me understand. Thank you. 🗣️ “I can see clearly now, the rain is gone. I can see all the obstacles in my way.”🎶

[@tyas5503]

I'm not sure if it's the breakdown of the structures, simple but clear visuals, variety of examples, or your way of explaining and presenting it all, but this video really makes understanding this 4-Act structure easier for me, thanks!

[@christophermoriarty3274]

This is a GREAT video. And it jibes with my issue with traditional Hollywood screenwriting. Cheers!

[@chimedemon]

Thank you so much. I’ve only known that Hollywood and East Asian cinema felt different but couldn’t figure out why- every video essay that tried to shove eastern stories into western structures felt like they were forcing a cube into a triangle, and I’ve seen some fuckin video essayists be like “well this movie follows the rules so it’s good actually” like when talking about Avatar. I was pissed that people kept going towards rules of a story rather than if that story was actually interesting, and again it felt so damn limiting.. then I heard about the 4-act structure. And my god it’s been like a breath of fresh air. Now you can have elements of a 3-act if you want like a person’s arc but you don’t HAVE to, and this bends more to what I like in stories… the story UNRAVELING. I really like that. Also it lends itself to vibes more than actual black and white events. Thank you so fuckin much dude you have no idea how happy this made me.

[@vivistory_]

>every video essay that tried to shove eastern stories into western structures felt like they were forcing a cube into a triangle I KNOW. Or they act like the two styles are synonymous. >Thank you so fuckin much dude you have no idea how happy this made me. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'm so happy that people are finding this useful.

[@ohmprakash7845]

I'm reading about 4 act structure since a few years..This is the best I've ever found..Very well explained..really helps

[@hmurdock]

This is the best YT video on eastern story structure. I keep getting back to it after trying to see other videos on the subject and stopping them in the middle for this one. Great job!

[@eatwhatwhen]

You're absolutely right. This is the best video on eastern story structure.

[@mattcarp6021]

I’ve watched a billion videos on kishotenketsu but this video is the first to actually explain it in a way that really makes sense to me. Thanks a ton!

[@melissalonla]

I think the reason I enjoy specifically anime stories so much is the unexpected “twist” element which makes the plots very interesting.

[@vivistory_]

Same

[@CharlesJacques-v1w]

Man this channel is awesome, great motion design, good and detailed explanation of 4 act structure plus acutslly funny. Im' subbing cant wait for the next videos!!

[@kauaandrade4098]

video's got a 9 min "intro" hell yeah thats kishotenketsu

[@carlossmith5598]

Awesome observations about story art. Nice enthusiasm, I would love to read any stories you write!!!

[@vivistory_]

Thanks! You're so sweet. I'm not really writing fiction these days. These craft videos are my main creative outlet. New one coming soonish!

[@JourneysWithHomer]

Finally, someone who explains what it is, is not, what it does that the western style does not, and why it's not just the same 3-act structure with extra steps and a prolonged intro! We will watch your career with great interest!

[@Catastrio]

I absolutely adore pretty much the entire video. Please keep up the good work!

[@vivistory_]

Thanks so much! I'll try!

[@James-gd4ph]

The first chapters of manga are a really good place to study how Japanese writers use kishotenketsu.

[@EvilSnails]

Love the variety of examples and your humor is great! I found your video since I learned about kishotenketsu recently. You deserve more subscribers haha

[@eatwhatwhen]

@vivistory you smart, funny, and your observations are really on point! I found you after searching KiChoTenKetsu. PLEASE, more videos! This stuff is good, you'll find an audience.

[@vivistory_]

Thanks so much! I have another one cooking.

[@timetraveler9105]

17:00 timestamp. Thank you, I curently making story. wish me luck ❤

[@EmileFeik]

Superb video

[@KenyaWright]

Really awesome breakdown. You truly killed this❤❤❤❤❤

[@kimyoonmisurnamefirst7061]

Korean here. Aristotle didn't argue for character first. That's an after Jane Austen notion, though some argue for industrialization. Also, A story has a beginning middle and end, etc is a total misreading of that section. Greeks put the thesis, last, not first. The 5-paragraph essay with the thesis first was invented in the 19th century. Aristotle argued for the 2-act structure. The rambling as you put it, is arguing for a continuous story structure. If you bother reading the whole of Poetics--which people don't he wants 16 parts, continuous, one story line, long, simple, and and 2-act structure (Things happen and then it gets terrible). Character comes near to LAST according to his treaties. Not first. It's morals first, with a negative reinforcement. 'cause ya know how somehow doing violence to people corrects their ways... wait, it doesn't, well, Aristotle thought so, but it should be in story form. The person that argued for a 3-act structure was Syd Field, which isn't that sexy, I know. But you're looking at the 20th century where it's formed by a bunch of the worst game of grapevine I've ever seen. And people refusing to cite the person they think is the biggest AH, or plain forgetting citations. The notion that this all came from Aristotle, is likely a misunderstanding and a misreading of Gustav Freytag, who, for the record got a crapload wrong. Because guess what? I read his entire treaties too. All of those pages with the rants and the whole I am better than Shakespeare, I want to kill Polish people off the face of the Earth and fascist ideologies. BTW, I wrote most of the Kishotenketsu article on wikipedia, and updated it recently, so... That took me over 3 years to accomplish, including finding the correct model, the history, and bugging some Chinese people to give me an example. And also facing some racism, because apparently diacritical marks are fine on Spanish and English words, but if I post it on a Chinese word, it's evil and needs to be downgraded. Korean media does NOT use Kishotenketsu. There is a difference in story structure. Giseungjeongyeol is different. There is a strong required RETURN element which makes people feel flattened. It's a wrong take to think that Giseungjeongyeol is exactly that same is Kishotenketsu. The aims kinda are different. Even Koreans make fun of the love of the prodigal son famously popular in Korean media which isn't as popular in Japanese or Chinese media. Jeon is return or reversal rather than a twist in the Korean interpretation. Chinese media, though, tends to use something a tad bit closer to old Hollywood. But there are some fundamental misunderstandings about it. Japanese media uses the twist. But the Japanese version also synchronized heavily with Jo-Ha-Kyu, which is why their story structure looks different than Korean and Chinese when charted out. BTW, this is why you have to do the research rather than relying on wikipedia pages. There's some things I couldn't put onto the wikipedia page.

[@vivistory_]

My actual point is that modern Western narrative theory is unnecessarily restrictive. I think I've made a strong argument for that, even if there are mistakes. "Chinese media, though, tends to use something a tad bit closer to old Hollywood. But there are some fundamental misunderstandings about it." The Untamed is Chinese and very un-Hollywood. I described a micro-example, but it's even more-so on the macro level. So there are contemporary Chinese writers who aren't using Western-style frameworks. Also -- I implied this, but didn't say it explicitly -- you can use kishotenketsu and end up with a very Hollywood movie. So you'd have to ask an East Asian writer what they were going for to be sure. "Aristotle didn't argue for character first. That's an after Jane Austen notion, though some argue for industrialization." What are you referring to? I don't think I said anything about this. "The person that argued for a 3-act structure was Syd Field" Upon further research, I think you're right. I was taught in school that 3-act structure is this foundational thing. And every article about it talks about Aristotle. But I now think that that's mostly bullshit. Thanks for pointing that out. "Giseungjeongyeol is different." Here's a Korean poet referring to giseungjeongyeol and kishotenketsu synonymously. arts.cgu.edu/tufts-poetry-awards/on-impossibility-wandering-emptiness-a-conversation-with-e-j-koh/ But it's totally plausible that I missed the nuances. I tried looking into the reversal and return, and I only found your blog. Do you have another source? If I'm mistaken, I'll post a correction in the description and next video.

[@feitan7129]

Yo, I like this type of content and i love ur way of making this video especially as someone who creates manga, keep up the good work. Ur channel is underrated!

[@JurandirGouveia]

Why did you stop making videos. Just great content here.

[@cleansheetid]

I always laugh when this happen “No, western narrative theory is cancel. You’re welcome. Video is over! Good bye!” 😂😂😂

[@furyberserk]

Currently at 10:04. There isn't actually a problem with the western structure. They are based on different philosophies. West: Change the world to fit your goals East: Change yourself to fit the world The western structure is generally Gilgamesh. All a story needs is a premise, conflict, and reflection. It's meant to depict change as a concept much like time or gravity.

[@vivistory_]

We may just disagree -- which is fine. But to state my argument more clearly: imo, the point of a theory of storytelling is to best understand the greatest number of stories. Like how heliocentrism and geocentrism both try to describe the solar system, and one theory can better explain observable reality. The Western model can't accurately describe a lot of successful Eastern stories. But the Eastern model can describe all Western stories. Therefore, the Eastern philosophy is better. But that doesn't mean that stories written in the Western style can't be good, or better. I didn't get into it in the video, but there are advantages to writing with the Western model.

[@Truthshallsety0ufree]

You've just changed thing for me, Beautiful!

[@mainchannel1566]

"Barbarian," one of my favorite recent horror movies, felt odd to me the first time I saw it. I later realized it was because it used a four-act structure, which I rarely encounter.

[@vivistory_]

Nice! I've been meaning to check that one out. Now I have something to look out for

[@stefanpoelman1627]

I LOVED this video!! sooo good. I would love to know what you make of Guy Ritchies Snatch. I don't think it fits into a typical western story structure

[@vivistory_]

I'm not familiar with that. I'll have to check it out.

[@MeaningSeekerPod]

Great video. Subscribed.

[@2ndai385]

A very good video, excellent explanation and videos, I would marry you this video is that good with good examples

[@АлександрБагмутов]

The western mindset is so prevalent in you, that your essay is structured kinda hollywood'esque. There's a clear villain which we defeat and save the world of storyteller theory... I think its just a fun-driven stylistic choice, but I feel there's a more balanced way to represent these theories.

[@MirrorscapeDC]

I'm now wondering if you could copy paste act two. Basically go: Intro, Development, Twists, Development 2, Twists 2, Conclusion. Which would, strangely enough, turn it back into a very strange three act structure. (Yes, I'm wondering because of a particular project of mine. Experimentation time.)

[@neetfreek9921]

Might steal this for my dual pov :3 There’s also a second portion to this plot structure that gauges emotional engagement at page percentages. Wonder how that would get effected as well.

[@adroitws1367]

hollywood three act structure is not even 3. The middle part is so big they cut it into two, which make it four act structure!

[@vivistory_]

It is common to chain intro, development, twist, conclusion >> intro, development , twist, conclusion >> etc. Not quite what you're describing, but similar. But also, yeah, go nuts. Have fun. Hope your project went great.

[@Xgy33]

Good job!

[@someguy752]

how do I know when the introduction phase is over and development phase begins? In western that's broken up by the inciting incident?

[@vivistory_]

Good question! It can be tricky to tell sometimes. Often (but not always) some character will just announce "this is the premise of this story!". There's a funny, extremely explicit one in Death Note. Ryuk's just like, "These two guys are gonna try to kill each other! How entertaining!" You can see how in Parasite, the backstory song ("Jessica, you cousin, from Chicago" or whatever it is) functions the same way, even though it's less obvious. It's like, "Oh, ok, that's what we're doing." Another sign of the split between acts 1 and 2 is the hero springing into action. Sometimes, but not always, the split from act 1 to 2 will happen 25% of the way in. But there's more variability here than in Hollywood movies. Failing all that, it's just vibes.

[@fe-ezeanya2689]

Great video. You deserve more viewers.

[@vivistory_]

Working on it!

[@kunaldebnath3879]

Kindly please share some academic books on Kishotenketsu structure. Please 🙏

[@JulesKPapa]

Have you ever seen My Dinner with Andre? Or any David Lynch film?

[@vivistory_]

Yeah. Why?

[@nevermind9487oo]

I am watching more and more anime these days as Hollywood has become too predictable for me after studying story structure and tutorials on storytelling; and don't get me started on the w0ke elements in recent western films and shows

[@PanchoCohen]

Great video! Thanks for posting

[@vivistory_]

Thanks for watching!

[@Catastrio]

Where is the Rick & Morty video :(

[@vivistory_]

It's coming

[@Catastrio]

@@vivistory_ You lied! :(

[@vivistory_]

@@Catastrio Sorry! It is coming! I'm trying to knock out some original fiction first, and it's killing me. (I hate beginnings haha)

[@Catastrio]

@@vivistory_ It's the thought that counts

[@jacoby4657]

Just read the clusterfuck of "conversation" you sparked on the screenwriting subreddit - don't worry about all the fire, you made a great point but leaned a bit too hard into your opinion instead of leaving it a bit more open ended like nerdwriter learned to do in his videoessays. Learn from the mistake, recalibrate, internalize and move on) Really ejoyed your video, looking forward to more of the knowledge in storytelling that you find. I mysef am writer. Cheers P.S. I hate how everyone kept disliking your comments just bcs.

[@vivistory_]

I partially did it on purpose to fuel the reddit algorithm. From what I understand, every comment pushes it up in Hot. I do believe what I said. It's fine if not everyone agrees. I really didn't expect everyone to go so apeshit! Bizarre! Anyway, thanks for watching.

[@funkotron9198]

Aristotle is an idiot, and a genius. Western narrative theory is cancelled. Now that's a twist I didn't see coming.

[@imnugget8085]

Ummm japan actually copy america art style cause the 3 art structure but japan made it better until weirdly the creator of rick and morty made a better one but his is limited not good for horror story or comedy in the sense