Holmegaard, Mollegabet: What's What?

[@carstenf279]

Hello from Denmark. Both Holmegaard and Møllegabet are actual places. Holmegaard is an area situated on the southern part of Sjælland (Zealand) and contains a large creek and some low lying areas with lakes and bogs. Nice place - will go there next time I ride my mc :) The other place "Møllegabet" is offshore just north of the island of "Ærø" (try saying that!). On 8-10 feet of water they found an ancient stone age village/camp which they have been escavating for quite some time. The two places are about 100km apart. (Over the last 8000 years the area was submerged because of the rising sea after the ice age) It is safe to assume that people in these areas did not live there on a permanent basis 8000-10000 years ago because of harsh winters (probably!), but rather went there to hunt for the season and thus followed the game around - so the bows that were found could have been left there by hunting parties who happened to pass by. Your guess is as good as mine. My point is just that the finding place is not evidence of an actual culture - just evidence that a small group of people dwelled there (or passed by) 8000 years ago. I am not a historian or an archeologist - just a "common sense guy ;o) )

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Holy cow, Thank you for that. Hearing from someone actually from Denmark is valuable. I am going to read your information on a video that I'll do after a eat breakfast and take a shower. Have a great day and thank you. John

[@Grumpy_old_Boot]

@@johnjriggsarchery2457 Actually, there was markings of houses in the Møllegabet dig, so probably more than just passing by. But they could have been houses that was just used in the summer, AFAIK it was a couple of houses (4 houses or so) at the coast, that the sea claimed. Also, not only is there a 100km distance between, but also a good deal of it is water (it's an island). And on top of that there is a 2000 years difference, which is a significant amount of time. Edit : Oh, and there is more than one Holmegård bow, they found like, 4 in the same area, but most of them were just fragments, while one was almost entirely complete (though broken into multiple fragments), and that's the one people normally talk about as the Holmegård Bow. Edit 2 : Here's a link to a picture of the Møllegabet bow : www.buewesth.dk/mollegabetII_buen.html As you can see, the there is a very pronounced narrowing of the limb, and also a notch for the string, right at the end of it.

[@BrianTimmonsTX]

I didn't expect a video response to the question, but thank you very much for clearing all that up. So much to learn...

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Hi Brian, thank you for asking questiona.

[@toxophilecute1]

Archeologists tend to name finds either for the people who find them or for the locations they're found in or around. So, having said that, the names are really a classification notation for archeological reference. I like to think that the style differences can be traced to individual preference, mentor teaching students, best use of the bow wood, experimentation, and or trade across territories. As people we find one example in the archeologic records and "assume" that they were all made that way in that area. This leaves out all the dynamics involved, as mentioned above.

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

E, you are demonstrating why I find so much enjoyment in the primitive Archery World. Thank you for that.

[@roalik4270]

Very good point.

[@toxophilecute1]

Thank you, guys.

[@growinmoflower3391]

Some people can make bows but those who know multiple designs and the process/history of their purposes and makers in my mind is a Bowyer..thanks for another lesson and sharing such cool bows..

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Always appreciated. Your input means a lot. Thank you.

[@paulboudreau1925]

Hi J.R.Did you ever try heat treating the belly of a bow?Paul B

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Hi Paul, yes I have. Mostly on Elm, Ash, and Hickory. All three really respond well to belly tempering. Apparently, in some areas, the Inuit would only have access to willow and they would compress the belly fibers and heat treat those bows out of necessity. Heat treating is a great tool to have in your kit. Thank you for the great question. BTW, I don't get notifications of responses to my response so you'll have to start a new comment.

[@snakeriverscotto]

Another great one John. I do not keep up with forums and other research very well in regards to archery; I thought a more contemporary bowyer had examined the “backwards” artifact and felt the original expert assessment may not have been accurate. I’m thinking of a passage from TBB on this but can’t recall the volume. Either way, it is fascinating history. I think I will have to try a “backwards” stave bow just to see why someone would choose this design. What are you ask for one of your Mollegabets?

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Since the price of materials have gone up, both of the Molly's will be around $250 with shipping.

[@fordman7479]

Wouldn't the handle protruding out the back of the bow cause major growth ring violations? Looks like it would cause the front of the handle to crack off under tension

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

I heard that they were mistaken and it was a backwards bow only because they were shooting it backwards. The handle was exactly weak because of that, and this proves that the "experts" sometimes say wrong things and we should always question big leaps like stating that it was a backwards bow for no real reason.

[@ulfullring3936]

The "backwards bow" is probably just a wrong interpretation in TBB1. Is corrected in TBB4.

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Good to know. It makes this puzzle more interesting because the different bows have more in common than we thought. Do you think that the origin of the "Mollegabet" is actually derived from the "lessons from the past" bows which is a modern bow that was supposedly derived from the bow on page 44 volume 3?

[@ulfullring3936]

If you by Mollegabet mean the modern version you see all around on KZbin etc., I agree. Actually Tim Baker say so on pp. 119-125 in TBB4 and discusses different variations of this principle. On p. 120 (top) he shows this well known interpretation of a Mollegabet/Holmegaard bow side by side with a modern interpretations of an Andaman bow, and call both an Andaman-Holmegard design. Very interesting. I have learned a lot from what he writes about this. But we should not confuse this with the true Holmegaard and Mollegabet bows from prehistoric Denmark. Those bows probably was a combination of the ecology of the place and well understood knowledge about how good bows perform. @@johnjriggsarchery2457

[@lingsun8225]

Great video, Sir. I also very interested in these two kinds of bow, but couln't find much detailed information about them. Would you mind share some recommendation of books or documents if possible?

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

The go to has to be the Traditional Bowyers Bibles. From there, they include sources for further research. Another really good resource is the Paleoplanet forum along with the Primitive Archer forum. On both forums you'll find people that research things to the n'th degree and are willing to share. Thank you for watching, I appreciate it greatly.

[@lingsun8225]

@@johnjriggsarchery2457 Thank you Sir, it will be a great help. Btw i can't wait to see the shooting videos.

[@SeadartVSG]

Where did you find the actual dimensions for the Holmegaar bow?

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Page 46, volume 3 of the TBB

[@ryanbeard1119]

What about the Mollegabet design having implications for radical cold weather, Dry stiff tips, stay dry and hard, Lage belly area can soak up RH at enclosed campsite w heat. (Boiling wale blubber,) constantly semi sealled w animal fat before party ventures out B4 a hunt. Small bending rang ensures longer life in artic weather, for preservation of range of MC content inside. IF a bow is overmoisturised at the camp, and a early yeilding hunt is expected, stiff libs can be re heat dried over camp fire in well before hunt. We cannot pretent these neolithic pioneers did not go great lengths to preserving bow, so why couldnt even the design itself be modified for certain maintance effeciencies?

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Hi Ryan, all good thoughts. We have bows, some of us, lots of bows and we live in climate controlled dwellings. A refrigerator, stuff in the cupboards. Cars, blah blah blah. We can imagine though, the people back in the day. Break your leg... you're dead. Bad wound... you might die. Get separated from your group.... see ya. Break a bow... crap, that's a lot of damn work to make another. You make a lot of good points. Seriously cold weather can kill bows and when I think of yew, which doesn't tolerate serious cold weather as well as other woods, precautions need to be taken.

[@toxophilecute1]

Stirring the *hit with a stick...bow?!?

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

I'll have to ponder that one.

[@toxophilecute1]

Sorry. Couldn’t help it.

[@fordman7479]

Love both styles they compete for the top spot on my favorite list lol

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Thank you. I gotta agree, I really like these two designs.

[@noblegreen2692]

John you should make a really heavy bow, then shoot it using ur feet to hold it and drawing with both hands

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

questions., my friend is one heck of a cool idea!

[@noblegreen2692]

@@johnjriggsarchery2457 I kbow that people from around the world shot with their feet but I wonder if you could do so with a really heavy bow

[@markpinther9296]

I agree, a complete troublemaker...

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

That's what makes me so lovable.

[@jimathybindlenim6359]

The English longbow is actually welsh

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Thank you for adding to the conversation.

[@jimathybindlenim6359]

@@johnjriggsarchery2457 you didn't know that?

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

@@jimathybindlenim6359 I did. The Welsh longbows were known to be made out of Wych Elm and someone of the times said they were powerful enough to penetrate an oak door. I'm guessing a little bit here but I would guess that the famous yew bows of the English were "children" of the Welsh Elm Longbows. Just recently people have been discussing the short yew bows that were also used along with the recurves that were ignored for way too long. It's the politics of bows and to some extent I believe the English Longbow Guilds hold some responsibility for that.

[@jimathybindlenim6359]

@@johnjriggsarchery2457 I didn't know that. Maybe I've got some homework to do. I still stand by my point of the welsh pioneering the longbow for warfare. Ill go and do a little reading i think before I go spouting something I've heard at the archery club 😂👍.

[@kennethsmith1744]

The American Flat bow in from Native American Bows though most did not have a deep handle som did.

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

That's a really good point. Thank you. For one thing, if the handle doesn't narrow much, it's unnecessary to have a deep handle, plus it helps to reduce the amount of pre-bend in order to have a minimum usable brace height.

[@kennethsmith1744]

My Ggrandpa was a Bowyer he was Native American he made longbow that he reflexed and let Dry Strung backwards then he tillered and finished them. Dad said they were so powerful he couldn't pull them back. But he was small. He says some of them were 100# bows

[@ulfullring3936]

Here is the actual archeological drawing of the Mollegabet bow: www.prehistoweb.fr/index.php/forum-prehisto/fabrications-et-connaissances/303-arc-de-mollegabet-ii-mollegabet-ii-bow As you see, it was just a fraction that was found, and the rest is interpretation. Also you see that your version is not a Mollegabet, but a Holmegaard: en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-mesolithic-period/the-stone-age-hunters-bow-and-arrow/the-worlds-oldest-bows/ The two types of bows was found in two different parts of Denmark, which gave them their names.

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Thanks a bunch. You really answered a lot of questions.

[@noone-op6yg]

Fastenating! A bow forged in conflict, even for it's own name. is it ready yet... is it ready yet lol

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

OMG, I just saw this comment. Yep, it's done. Hahaha

[@davidbyrne6106]

Well put John ! Just because thoes bows were found in Denmark does not necessarily mean they were made in Denmark !!!!! They could have been ordered over the achient internet from China ????😂😂😂😂

[@johnjriggsarchery2457]

Hahaha. Well played, sir.