HOLTON vs KANSTUL vs YAMAHA: Bass Trombone shootout!

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

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[@sergefiliatreault1356]

Kanstul all the way. Very interesting video. I used to play a Bach 50 B3L with a 10.5 bell, but now I play a Rose of Texas Shires with a 9.5 bell and love it. I still can get the kind of Bach sound I was looking for, but working less hard. Thanks again for sharing your ideas.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Thanks Serge: I’m jealous of your compact Shires 😎🙌 Wonderful rich sounds

[@moravian7]

Kanstul made wonderful bass trombones and I have owned 3 of them. I tried an experiment which turned out quite nicely: on my 1662 I replaced the gold brass bell with an Edwards yellow brass bell of the same, 9.5 inch diameter. All the advantages of the CR valves and easier projection with the yellow brass. Your video was well done and I agree with your assessments of the three horns, particularly the Yamaha 612. They do break up when you push the volume which is why I've never switched to one.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Frankenboning is a dangerous art sir…. Thanks for your comments.

[@moravian7]

Only in less capable hands. I've been a working bass trombonist for 44 years and a brass repair technician for 25.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@moravian7 I see- then keep on Frankenboning and happy sliding!

[@bebopmomma]

I’m a fan of the 9-1/2” bell like on my Bach. The throat of the bell makes a big difference in how the horn sounds and plays to. The Kanstul seemed to center faster.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Absolutely! Center and focus is easiest with smaller equipment.

[@harryarmitage6056]

Interesting, thanks. Have you ever been to Raths and tried changing just the bell size on one of their R9 demonstration modular instruments? I have a R9 independent with a non-standard 10" red brass bell (which bought used) and also have a TR181 with the same size bell - they don't play identically, but then other components may be different. (e.g. my Rath happens to have a dual bore TIS slide with bronze outer slide).

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Now that would be the most scientific comparison! As soon as dual bore and TIS are involved the whole game changes again....sounds like you found a unique horn!

[@hymnbonist1335]

Do you think a large bass trombone could substitute for a contra bass trombone? 40 years ago I believe there was a bass trombonist with the American Brass Quintet that had a large Bach with all the dark options. Trying to replace a tuba position I think.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

It depends on the context I’d say: the contra will always have its own, unique sound. You speak of John Rojak I believe.

[@hymnbonist1335]

It was Robert Biddlecome. Left the group in 1990. Could not find info on his bass trombone.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@hymnbonist1335 ah ok: so Rojak’s predecessor?

[@hymnbonist1335]

Yes .

[@hymnbonist1335]

Does anyone know what trombone Biddlecome used?

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Any big bell fans out there?

[@moravian7]

I had a Holton TR-180 years ago and got good results with it but I eventually came back to 9.5 inch bells.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@moravian7 Right- it’s less hard work, more efficiency, more sound !

[@SpockMonroe]

Thanks a lot. Your verdicts seem consistent with what I, as an amateur of course, hear. Especially w/respect to those "pizza bell" horns. The Yamaha is responsive and does break up, for example. I genuinely was not aware how much the bell size was determinant in so much. This helps me understand my suspicions w/regard to the attributes of various horns. How would you rate your/a carbon fiber [Butler?] trombone in such a study?

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Great to hear. Did you see my comparisons with the Butler yet? kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaTGXoCPeql9e7s Everyone hears it differently: for me the cf has less resonance and different colour of overtones. Leave your impression in the comments, very curious!

[@SpockMonroe]

@@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy I too hear a loss of resonance. At this point in my listening experience, carbon fiber horns seem to soften colors and convey a stuffier sound, a gentler bite, and a rounded edge. Similar to my recollections of my Holton vs. Bach Stradivarius trombone in the 80s. There exists too a less flattering sense of listening to heavily compressed digital music. Perhaps a good recording or background horn? Do you, or others use these professionally, and on what kind of gigs? Overall, in this situation, a negligible difference. Only the lyrical, legato-tongued, "Dances w/Wolves" comparison found me mistaken. Impressive. Hansome horn and best of all, lightweight. Thanks, man. You do good stuff.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@SpockMonroe We seem to have similar ears! Indeed I’d say the cf is best for close mic recording. But if you check the comments on that vid you’ll see how different we all hear trombones! Flatter sound is a great expression 👍

[@SpockMonroe]

@@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy As a supervening consideration, it did not occur to me that we indeed do hear these things differently. I wonder why?

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@SpockMonroe In the first instance I’d argue that the words we use are only approximations of that thing we call sound. Secondly, we are all unique!

[@carolepaul8390]

I have the Getzen David Taylor model. It hA served me well especially solo work.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Aha- didn’t know he played Getzen!! What’s the bell size? 🙌

[@JL-bu8bz]

Yamaha was the best? More projecion with more harmonics?

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

You think so? I found the compacter bells to have more overtones, if that’s what you mean? So for me it’s the Kanstul

[@JL-bu8bz]

I prefer Yamaha and after see you playing I decided to buy one 612 to study. Thanks.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@JL-bu8bz Wow!! Are you a tenor doubler then?

[@musicofnote1]

Interesting. There's sometimes a difference between how one hears/feels the sound from the player's perspective and how it soudn for a listener. For my ear, the Holton always sounds strained and somehow un-uniform. The Kanstul soun ded surprisingly nice. But the biggest, warmest all encompassing sound was from the Yamaha. And I didn't hear the lower tones breaking up. But granted, I should re-listen and remove the explainations, only listening to the sounds. I play a Yamaha Xeno 822g that I'm very fond of, both from my side of the instrument and what listeners have told me. I sold an early 1990's Bach 50OG indi that I hated to get this Yamaha. I found the Bach to be stuffy especially in the valve regions and tone colors all over the map. All things the Yamaha does so much better.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

Interesting indeed! I also find most Bach’s quite hard work, but love the colour. Yamaha is uniform, but the Xeno lacks character compared to the 612/613. As for Holton, the 181 is quite a different kind of blow (this may explain the strained sound you mention as I haven’t played it long) - stay tuned for my review next week 😇

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

PS- yes, taken alone the 612 is big and warm. It does distort quicker though, and the blending is likely to be more difficult in a section. Although- tell that to Phil Teele!! 💕

[@erniebiggs8343]

Sound good or bad is alway closest to the face.

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@erniebiggs8343 You mean the trombone sound from a playing position?

[@erniebiggs8343]

@@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy no, issues with your sound is affected more closer to the face than it is at the bell whatever they may be.

[@tonycollins4376]

I like Yamaha

[@NicksOnlineTromboneAcademy]

@@tonycollins4376 Me too! Which horn do you use?