Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

A criminally oversimplified summary of a diverse culture's views of sexuality, that my unqualified brain had slapped together based on limited reading of barely relevant source material. enjoy.

[@jankopandza1072]

"Ancient Greece was lgbtq friendly!" Meanwhile Ancient Greece: Has a word for "gay" (kinaidos) which etymologically literally means "one that causes shame" Source: I am Greek

[@eae6572]

hes a dumbass, he doesn't know crap about our amazing history and wants sodomy to be something normal.

[@SchizophrenixTheGaul3478]

L e a t h e r a p r o n c l u b assemble!

[@haelotny6523]

Kinaidos only meant the penetrated partner in anal sex in ancient Greece. It was not a catch-all term for gay people like it must be now in Christianized homophobic Greece.

[@haelotny6523]

In ancient Greece, that word referred only to a penetrated male (bottom) in anal sex. It could not apply to a penetrating male (top) in anal sex. It was not used as a general term of abuse for gay men the way it is used nowadays in modern Christianized and ergo homophobic Greece.

[@ohyeahohyeahohyeahohyeah6040]

Ο κίναιδος ηταν αυτός που τον επερνε από τον κωλο εγώ δεν βρήκα καμία φράση που να αντιστοιχεί με την λέξη ντροπή

[@aokiaoki4238]

"After he had created people, Zeus immediately implanted in them all the possible human character traits, but he forgot about Aiskhyne (Aeschyne, Shame). Since he didn't know how to get Aiskhyne (Shame) inside the human body, he ordered her to go in from behind. At first Aiskhyne protested, considering Zeus's request to be beneath her dignity. When Zeus kept insisting, she said, ‘All right, I will go in there, on the condition that if anything--or Eros (Carnal Love)--comes in there after me, I will leave immediately.’ As a result, people who engage in sodomy have no sense of shame." Aesop, Fables 528 (from Chambry 118) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.) : "Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life.1" 1 Ibid. chap. xviii. (51 d); Xenophon, Constitution of Sparta, 2. 12-14; Aelian, Varia Historia, iii. 10 and 12. "when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure." Plat. Laws 1.63 "Spartan love was not obscene. If a young man dare to tolerate lewdness against him or if a young lover tried hubris to someone else, it wasn't in the interests of none to ashamed Sparta so in such a case they were both forced to leave Sparta or loose their lives" «Σπαρτιάτης δε έρως αισχρόν ουκ είδεν είτε γαρ μειράκιον ετόλμησεν ύβριν υπομείναι είτε εραστής υβρίσαι, αλλ΄ ουδερέροις ελυσιτέλησε την Σπάρτην εγκαταμείναι ή γαρ της πατρίδος απηλλάγησαν ή και το έτι θερμόμετρον και του βίου αυτού.» Aelians various history § 3.12 "A Spartan admire a young man but only like we admire a beautiful statue and one many others and one the many, because sexual pleasure is a hubris unacceptable between them. " «Ερά Σπαρτιάτης ανήρ μειρακίου λακωνικού , αλλ’ερά μόνο ως αγάλματος καλού και ενός πολλοί , και εις πολλών. Η μεν γαρ εξ ύβρεως ηδονή ακοινώνητος προς αλλήλους». Maximus Tyrius, Dialexeis 20.8de "If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other." Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians. 2.13 “Or the man who has failed to perform all the military service demanded of him, or who has thrown away his shield.” And he is right. Why? Man, if you fail to take up arms in behalf of the state, or if you are such a coward that you are unable to defend her, you must not claim the right to advise her, either. Whom does he specify in the third place? “Or the man,” he says, “who has debauched or prostituted himself.” For the man who has made traffic of the shame of his own body, he thought would be ready to sell the common interests of the city also. But whom does he specify in the fourth place?" Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 29 [841d] we might forcibly effect one of two things in this matter of sex-relations,-either that no one should venture to touch any of the noble and freeborn save his own wedded wife, nor sow any unholy and bastard seed in fornication, nor any unnatural and barren seed in sodomy,-or else we should entirely abolish love for males, and in regard to that for women, if we enact a law that any man who has intercourse with any women save those who have been brought to his house " Plato, Laws Laws [The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.]” Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 12 [840d] but have fallen into a strait because of the cowardice of the many, I maintain that our regulation on this head must go forward and proclaim that our citizens must not be worse than fowls and many other animals which are produced in large broods, and which live chaste and celibate lives without sexual intercourse until they arrive at the age for breeding; and when they reach this age they pair off, as instinct moves them, male with female and female with male; and thereafter [841d] we might forcibly effect one of two things in this matter of sex-relations,-either that no one should venture to touch any of the noble and freeborn save his own wedded wife, nor sow any unholy and bastard seed in fornication, nor any unnatural and barren seed in sodomy,-or else we should entirely abolish love for males, and in regard to that for women, if we enact a law that any man who has intercourse with any women save those who have been brought to his house " Plato laws "Well, when he found that Critias loved Euthydemus4 and wanted to lead him astray, he tried to restrain him by saying that it was mean and unbecoming in a gentleman to sue like a beggar to the object of his affection, whose good opinion he coveted, stooping to ask a favour that it was wrong to grant. [30] As Critias paid no heed whatever to this protest, Socrates, it is said, exclaimed in the presence of Euthydemus and many others, “Critias seems to have the feelings of a pig: he can no more keep away from Euthydemus than pigs can help rubbing themselves against stones.” [31] Now Critias bore a grudge against Socrates for this Xenophon, Memorabilia 1.2 "Such, then, was the judgment of your fathers concerning things shameful and things honorable; and shall their sons let Timarchus go free, a man chargeable with the most shameful practices, a creature with the body of a man defiled with the sins of a woman? In that case, who of you will punish a woman if he finds her in wrong doing? Or what man will not be regarded as lacking intelligence who is angry with her who errs by an impulse of nature,while he treats as adviser1 the man who in despite of nature has sinned against his own body? " Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 185 If therefore Misgolas is willing to come forward here and testify to the truth, he will be doing what is right; but if he prefers to refuse the summons rather than testify to the truth, the whole business will be made clear to you. For if the man who did the thing is going to be ashamed of it and choose to pay a thousand drachmas into the treasury rather than show his face before you,1 while the man to whom it has been done is to be a speaker in your assembly, then wise indeed was the lawgiver who excluded such disgusting creatures from the platform. Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 46 “Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved as a father would a son” Plato, Republic 3.403b "Ariaeus was a barbarian as he pleasured with young beautiful boys " "Αριαίω δε βαρβάρω όντι, οτι μειρακίοις καλοίς ήδετο " Xenophon Anabasis 2.6 "Law [If any Athenian shall outrage a free-born child, the parent or guardian of the child shall demand a specific penalty. If the court condemn the accused to death, he shall be delivered to the constables and be put to death the same day. If he be condemned to pay a fine, and be unable to pay the fine immediately, he must pay within eleven days after the trial, and he shall remain in prison until payment is made. The same action shall hold against those who abuse the persons of slaves.]” Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 16

[@agapewyclef6381]

Hhh well done thx brother

[@o_huno]

Doing God's work there brother. This video is super fucking wrong.

[@octaviohenrique6079]

This laws comprove that homossexualismo were relatively commum

[@InAeternumRomaMater]

​​@@octaviohenrique6079 Not really, really depends of what you mean "common". In Ancient Greece same sexual relations was known and they did have a good knowledge about it back in those times. But what we today see as homophōbia, yea Ancient Greeks were more of that than actual "homosexuals". Just how in US today there are only 2% of people who identifies as Gay, much more uncommon would it be practiced In Ancient Greece

[@TooGumbica]

@@octaviohenrique6079 This laws prove that gay ppl did exist. Ofc!! No one is going against that. But to rewrite books and burn others to push ur agenda .... (like Nazis)... Is horrible.

[@stephensmith4025]

Time machines need to exist.

[@somethingsomething404]

Looking for some young boys? Lol

[@Ian-yf7uf]

You'd have a great time unless you were a bottom.

[@azuaraikrezeul1677]

We have a pederast here.

[@Bigblackk1]

Yes they do

[@Matt0sh]

No shit

[@DaveS859]

Leather Apron’s video is a good antidote for this

[@sethprestenback8617]

I love your videos. They really flesh out these topics, which are normally taught in vague and abstract ways.

[@generichistory]

Thanks :) I try my best

[@kn0wr3zz]

Hes totally wrong, so no

[@GrandMaster-Broda]

@@generichistory please respond to aokiaok’s comment below. You seem to be the only one who can finally debunk this

[@generichistory]

@@GrandMaster-Broda I’m working on a follow up video to this at the moment which responds to a few of these comments. Sorry it’s taking a while, it’s actually quite hard to argue against a string of no context and cherry picked primary sources that don’t conclude with a coherent argument

[@fungalflower1322]

Watch Leather Apron Clubs video on this topic

[@TenaciousTeddy]

Thanks, man. I watched it. It's sad to see what a crock of shit this video actually is. The leather apron guy actually read out sources, and they completely go against this video.

[@May-ky4lu]

how does this video and channel doesn't have like a million views and subscriptions? the content and the way you deliver it is amazing.

[@Thomas.Nikolaidis10]

In the original Iliad, not even a single time, does Homer mention that achilles and patroklos were lovers. That is very ironic, since you mock the dude for portating achilles and patroklos as cousins. You are a scince fiction chanel, man.

[@haelotny6523]

Achilles and Patroclus were widely interpreted to be lovers by later Greeks such as the orator Demosthenes (d. 322 BC). Read a history book for once.

[@Thomas.Nikolaidis10]

@@haelotny6523 if you had a f@cking brain you would realise that i said IN THE ORIGINAL STORY BY HOMER.

[@malonei7472]

I hate how they go with the modern "Spartans Gay" nonsense. Literally the rest of the Greece was gay. Why is it people want specifically Sparta, the one place that wasn't (or at least evidence points against it) to be gay. Xenophon, who fought with them, lived with them, and raised his sons' in the agoge program, straight up said that despite it being so common in Greece, in Sparta it didn't happen. The four biggest middle fingers of history is the phrase "modern historians now believe".

[@muhammadabuzarkhan7450]

Incorrect; Sparta at one point turn pedesrasty (a educational practice between adult male and young male) into sexual. Which is why Plato who originally supported it turned against it.

[@Nathan-rn7wl]

Ancient greeks saw gay sex as normal? Immediate stopped this video

[@jcarlovitch]

How the F*** did best ice hockey fights lead me here?

[@frogblasttheventcore69]

Beware of the pipeline my friend, beware of the pipeline.

[@rogerpropes7129]

Why does everyone in the civilized world have such difficulty in spelling 'cavalry'??? It's not 'cavarly' or worse 'Calvary'!!!

[@foodtestingstrips]

This was very well put together. I'm rather impressed

[@generichistory]

thanks Rob!

[@frankcommatobe8009]

Do you have sources for the claim about celts?

[@thomante]

I'm sorry... It's the recent Western perspective that places the Greeks at the beginning of all things literate. For instance the verb 'to weave' did not exist in Europe as 'wefan' until 450 AD! Tho the act of weaving existed, it was not attested & literally not present. If you read the classics you will often find credit given to others in other lands. But the entire Hellenic logosphere has the patina of sole originality, as the Germanic logosphere does.

[@huntclanhunt9697]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH-khWevl9itlac Pretty much debunks the entirety of the "Gay Greece" theory.

[@assassinscreedguy1453]

Hey just accept the truth and don't try to debunk it in any way. Why should that video be more true than this?

[@elfrankycuz2503]

​@@assassinscreedguy1453it's a lie u listen to the myths than reality

[@assassinscreedguy1453]

@@elfrankycuz2503 your sentence doesn't make sense + just fookin learn about history of ancient Greece and you'll see that there were a lot of gays.

[@assassinscreedguy1453]

@@elfrankycuz2503 symposiums, death of Hipparchus, pederasty and much more

[@elfrankycuz2503]

@@assassinscreedguy1453 I did I don't see gays only in fake myths

[@Gh0stily111]

3:35 did this absolute giga Chad just predict chromosomes?

[@samgatiru4223]

Chromosomes are only Xy and Xx

[@Jp-ew4mp]

​@@samgatiru4223Factually incorrect. XYY, for example, is relatively common

[@Moxxie905]

My girl friend lives in Greece and I live in America

[@KatarinaTic]

This is a masterpiece.

[@generichistory]

Thanks! :)

[@brigidpatterson156]

I came here looking for patrocilles/sappho and I actually learnt smt, that's a point for you

[@hichamal-maghribi4600]

well where im from aromians (european) have tried for centuries to sexually liberate my people but that never worked out, but it did work out for you people because thats just your nature ya know

[@Katspearl]

interesting video! I love the format and explanations

[@generichistory]

Thanks!

[@Ikaros1994]

After he had created people, Zeus immediately implanted in them all the possible human character traits, but he forgot about Aiskhyne (Aeschyne, Shame). Since he didn't know how to get Aiskhyne (Shame) inside the human body, he ordered her to go in from behind. At first Aiskhyne protested, considering Zeus's request to be beneath her dignity. When Zeus kept insisting, she said, ‘All right, I will go in there, on the condition that if anything--or Eros (Carnal Love)--comes in there after me, I will leave immediately.’ As a result, people who engage in sodomy have no sense of shame." Aesop, Fables 528 (from Chambry 118) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.) : "Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life.1" 1 Ibid. chap. xviii. (51 d); Xenophon, Constitution of Sparta, 2. 12-14; Aelian, Varia Historia, iii. 10 and 12. "when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure." Plat. Laws 1.63 "Spartan love was not obscene. If a young man dare to tolerate lewdness against him or if a young lover tried hubris to someone else, it wasn't in the interests of none to ashamed Sparta so in such a case they were both forced to leave Sparta or loose their lives" «Σπαρτιάτης δε έρως αισχρόν ουκ είδεν είτε γαρ μειράκιον ετόλμησεν ύβριν υπομείναι είτε εραστής υβρίσαι, αλλ΄ ουδερέροις ελυσιτέλησε την Σπάρτην εγκαταμείναι ή γαρ της πατρίδος απηλλάγησαν ή και το έτι θερμόμετρον και του βίου αυτού.» Aelians various history § 3.12 "A Spartan admire a young man but only like we admire a beautiful statue and one many others and one the many, because sexual pleasure is a hubris unacceptable between them. " «Ερά Σπαρτιάτης ανήρ μειρακίου λακωνικού , αλλ’ερά μόνο ως αγάλματος καλού και ενός πολλοί , και εις πολλών. Η μεν γαρ εξ ύβρεως ηδονή ακοινώνητος προς αλλήλους». Maximus Tyrius, Dialexeis 20.8de "If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other." Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians. 2.13 “Or the man who has failed to perform all the military service demanded of him, or who has thrown away his shield.” And he is right. Why? Man, if you fail to take up arms in behalf of the state, or if you are such a coward that you are unable to defend her, you must not claim the right to advise her, either. Whom does he specify in the third place? “Or the man,” he says, “who has debauched or prostituted himself.” For the man who has made traffic of the shame of his own body, he thought would be ready to sell the common interests of the city also. But whom does he specify in the fourth place?" Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 29 [841d] we might forcibly effect one of two things in this matter of sex-relations,-either that no one should venture to touch any of the noble and freeborn save his own wedded wife, nor sow any unholy and bastard seed in fornication, nor any unnatural and barren seed in sodomy,-or else we should entirely abolish love for males, and in regard to that for women, if we enact a law that any man who has intercourse with any women save those who have been brought to his house " Plato, Laws Laws [The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.]” Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 12 [840d] but have fallen into a strait because of the cowardice of the many, I maintain that our regulation on this head must go forward and proclaim that our citizens must not be worse than fowls and many other animals which are produced in large broods, and which live chaste and celibate lives without sexual intercourse until they arrive at the age for breeding; and when they reach this age they pair off, as instinct moves them, male with female and female with male; and thereafter [841d] we might forcibly effect one of two things in this matter of sex-relations,-either that no one should venture to touch any of the noble and freeborn save his own wedded wife, nor sow any unholy and bastard seed in fornication, nor any unnatural and barren seed in sodomy,-or else we should entirely abolish love for males, and in regard to that for women, if we enact a law that any man who has intercourse with any women save those who have been brought to his house " Plato laws "Well, when he found that Critias loved Euthydemus4 and wanted to lead him astray, he tried to restrain him by saying that it was mean and unbecoming in a gentleman to sue like a beggar to the object of his affection, whose good opinion he coveted, stooping to ask a favour that it was wrong to grant. [30] As Critias paid no heed whatever to this protest, Socrates, it is said, exclaimed in the presence of Euthydemus and many others, “Critias seems to have the feelings of a pig: he can no more keep away from Euthydemus than pigs can help rubbing themselves against stones.” [31] Now Critias bore a grudge against Socrates for this Xenophon, Memorabilia 1.2 "Such, then, was the judgment of your fathers concerning things shameful and things honorable; and shall their sons let Timarchus go free, a man chargeable with the most shameful practices, a creature with the body of a man defiled with the sins of a woman? In that case, who of you will punish a woman if he finds her in wrong doing? Or what man will not be regarded as lacking intelligence who is angry with her who errs by an impulse of nature,while he treats as adviser1 the man who in despite of nature has sinned against his own body? " Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 185 If therefore Misgolas is willing to come forward here and testify to the truth, he will be doing what is right; but if he prefers to refuse the summons rather than testify to the truth, the whole business will be made clear to you. For if the man who did the thing is going to be ashamed of it and choose to pay a thousand drachmas into the treasury rather than show his face before you,1 while the man to whom it has been done is to be a speaker in your assembly, then wise indeed was the lawgiver who excluded such disgusting creatures from the platform. Aeschines, Against Timarchus 1 46 “Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved as a father would a son” Plato, Republic 3.403b "Ariaeus was a barbarian as he pleasured with young beautiful boys " "Αριαίω δε βαρβάρω όντι, οτι μειρακίοις καλοίς ήδετο " Xenophon Anabasis 2.6

[@GlennForbes20]

Creator Leather Apron Club did an excellent and truly historical video on this topic.

[@bahmanazizi6397]

Fuck yeah bro we Persian had so much to learn from Greece abut boy loving tradition and shit and that’s it the morality or democracy is our gift to world

[@blitzkrieg2928]

1:00 Leather Apron Fans rise up

[@kevinhelms1472]

Great video exactly what I was looking for when I couldn’t find much else on this subject. Thank you!

[@josefnicholson1516]

I’m ancient history student at Uni and I love these videos so much, underrated account

[@not-a-person]

This video is super well done, I wish I had found you sooner

[@Azrael__]

This is a tough one for me. The homophobic part of me is filled with anger watching this video, but the gay part of me feels really proud.

[@autobotfan11]

Too bad it a lie

[@grimmsby3011]

You shouldn't feel proud. The people of ancient Greece saw gays as abhorrent, and no they did not see "tops" as not gay because they weren't receiving. They saw "tops" as animalistic simpletons who have no control over their urges, while they saw "bottoms" as shameful hedonists who were lower on the social totem pole than even women.

[@Shutyourmouth20]

They tolerated it but most city’s didn’t really celebrate it or encourage it many city’s did and would practice pederasty but the majority didn’t

[@vidipsahoo4968]

Thanks for giving me a bunch of AO3 context for Romeo and Juliet!

[@josephdelaney8916]

Let's go Vidip

[@vidipsahoo4968]

@@josephdelaney8916 lmao!!!

[@xblade149]

Thanks. Also I do want know more about spartan perspective on homosexuality

[@galenbaker4526]

from what I've researched, they were very hetero normative. Even to the extent that their other Greek rivals would poke fun at it and call them slurs. But this was not so much about homosexuality so much as it was about sexism. Spartan girls dressed comfortably, had roles in public life, played sports among and in front of boys, and these habits or the products of them carried into their adulthood. But, perhaps more importantly, the institution of marriage in Sparta in particular was unique. It was common custom for both the man and the woman in the marriage to be in their physical prime, much closer in age than the typical ancient marriage, to include Greece. This was quite explicitly stated to be for the purpose of both parties involved to actually be satisfied in the marriage, to include, or perhaps especially, sexually. This led a lot of other Greek cities to look at Spartan women as some sort of scandalous beasts. And it led them to look at Spartan men as, well, other not-so-nice slurs because they put women on a relatively much more equal pedestal, whereas most of Greece was comically male centered, Sparta actually encouraged married couples to, well, like each other and enjoy the coupling. This also meant that adultery and promiscuity were much rarer occurrences in Sparta, perhaps hinting at the legitimacy of the passionate drives of the big players of the Trojan war legends. Because it would be almost unheard of for a Spartan woman to leave her husband for another man. So there is reason to believe that the same could be said of extramarital activities in men, regardless of the gender of the "side piece" he would take. Also, brothels were virtually non existent within the city of ancient Sparta. The ancient Greeks simply didn't look at sexuality in the same way the modern people of the world do. But based on the evidence at hand, it's safe to assume that Sparta was nothing but hetero normative, and encouraged sexual desire among married people, as well as companionship even in the public eye, and did not take kindly to sexual relations outside of marriage at all.

[@andrewachilles3085]

nabana is just a subliminal expression of the privation of qui annum (anni panni)

[@andrewachilles3085]

what does he think of dionysis

[@faithmargeuxcaubang7037]

Thank you. Wow, I really liked this and was able to sit through while enjoying my learning. So intriguing! I like how you shifted what was deemed as OK then and what was not, and how they all relate to interpretations today. Things were put into context and put into perspective. Awesome video :))

[@AChapman1997]

"The ... (sighs) *this*" I cracked up at how you didn't even try to pronounce it

[@terry6729]

Looks like I'm taking a trip to Greece.

[@Ripwejustkilleddaclub]

Their views on homosexual behavior is totally different today lol.

[@frogblasttheventcore69]

A TIME TRIP

[@TheHollandHS]

Sure you wish

[@I_Hate_The_Antichrist]

Goyslop propaganda

[@alexgomez6723]

Cope harder tradcon larping Leather Apron Club watcher.

[@francisconeto140]

Goyslop

[@bath_neon_classical]

what do you think the relationship was between Achilles and Patroclus?

[@generichistory]

I mean because they are fictional characters it could be and was interpreted in a number of different ways. But personally I think their story is more powerful if they were lovers

[@bath_neon_classical]

@@generichistory tha' right homer is very discreet about the nature of their love but we know it was very powerful, we can use our imagination

[@bath_neon_classical]

@@D19DMO128D yes i do not think homer says or implies anything about homosexual relations in the iliad.

[@FrostbiteDigital]

@@generichistory They weren't lovers. The Illiad never actually implied anything sexual

[@thebillionthuser]

They were just platonic friends

[@jamessarsgard1342]

Great video! I think you touched on a lot of the critical points to understand, but I’m wondering what you think about if this practice may have originated in Proto-indo European cultures? Specifically I’m referring to evidence of this in Celtic and Germanic tribes observed by Romans that were related to initiation rites such as the Mannerbunde. From what I’ve read it had a very similar type of pederastic dynamic that you mentioned here.

[@haelotny6523]

So many recent comments (inspired by the Netflix Alexander documentary controversy I suspect) which are denying that some forms of homosexual behaviour were accepted in ancient Greece. All these comments seem to be relying on the same cherrypicked sources used by that leather apron guy, like Xenophon and Plato in his later life (ignoring that Plato was pro-gay in his early life). And ignoring that Greek writers and orators continued to praise same-sex relationships even after Plato changed his view. Hope you make a new video to counter this historical revisionism.

[@leeboriack8054]

Appreciate the historical information.

[@jeffcampbell1555]

Hi GHV. I got a lot from this. Some part of my psycho-sexual wiring developed reading Mary Renault's Persian Boy novel at thirteen. I've since realized her romantic heart and pro-gay sympathies colored her fiction significantly. That's OK with me because pro-gay sympathies were hard to come by back then. But I really like how your videos assist me to see glimpses of the past through a more objective point of view. The mindset of antiquity is an alien planet: So much so that realizing our interpretation is hopelessly unrealistic is, itself, a hard-won beginning. Thanks for helping people like me understand a little bit better.

[@generichistory]

Honestly, I appreciate how much you enjoy the videos man and I'm glad you get a lot from them

[@LRayart]

I love Mary Renault, but if you sneeze, you'll miss the sex part!

[@jeffcampbell1555]

@@LRayart Indeed. And she left it to the reader's imagination. Which at that age meant I still had no idea what they'd done.

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

The book of 1 Corinthains 6:9 was written in an this kind of enviroment, it's vey interesting that in listing those types of people that will not enter into the kingdom of heaven both "men who practice homosexuality" and "men who submit to homosexual acts" as distinct categories.

[@jeromesullivan4015]

Lead poisoning isn’t good for character? 😂

[@jeromesullivan4015]

Great Piece..

[@richcole99]

Another exceptional video. You've got a spark that's going to ignite and I can't wait to see what happens next.

[@muhammadabuzarkhan7450]

There were a lot of homosexuality in Greek City States but it was mostly looked down on. Pederasty lost support from Platos after it became sexual as it was originally educational for brotherhood. And Athen banned homosexual from gaining citizenship. It wasn't a gay paradise. And people preferred men staying straight. Also, there way no actual proof that Alexander had sexual relationship with his childhood friend.

[@haelotny6523]

"After it became sexual" Pederasty was always known to be erotic as well as educational. It did not turn only sexual one day. Plato changed his views later on, yes. But you are lying if you claim that pederasty was looked down upon or abandoned due to his change in views. It continued to be practiced and praised by later Greek writers. And no all homosexual behaviour was not looked down upon. Only being a bottom (penetrated partner in anal sex) was looked down upon. Being a top (penetrating partner in anal sex) was not looked down upon. Being a penetrated partner in intercrural sex was not looked down upon.

[@muhammadabuzarkhan7450]

@@haelotny6523 Nope, many writers seem to talk about pederasty with any sexual activities mentioned. Now, thy could have simply cut it out but it could also mean it turned sexual later on. And no a lot of writer didn't not praise pederasty in sense when acknowledging it also has sexual conduct. We are assuming it was sexual to begin with. Then why would Plato change his view so drastically? Also, there can't be homosexual with simply romantic interaction. Sexual conduct will happen now and then and one person will be penetrated. If they dislike the act of men being penetrated than they dislike homosexual act (or at least sodomy). Who ever goes, "I don't like it when pedophile have sex with children but simple relationship is fine." When being a pedophile mean you are sexually attracted to them and if some are in a relationship with teenagers (or whatever) it is bound to get sexual due to romantic drive even if they aren't pedophile. Then how do you dislike one thing and don't hate the other. It seem like the general Greek population of that time is either morons. Or you have obsession with making them gay. If they long down upon the idea of men being penetrated then they hated homosexual men. Because they can not telepathically mated with each other.

[@SadhuBiochemist]

By existing in halves, perhaps it was meant kissing with lips or engaging in sex, upper body and lower body? The greeks may have been fascinated with sexual desire which seems to this day to be separate from the normal conciousness.

[@thomaskretzmer7953]

The ancient Greeks also thought the world was flat, that there was a god for every aspect of life, slavery was perfectly normal and expected, and being of a certain culture made you superior to everyone else. On the contrary homosexuality was not considered normal or accepted according to historical text.

[@ricardorussell6046]

They sure loved their Men, amazing the COUNTRY made children.

[@elliotnicknamed2446]

7:05 By young man and old man, they ment adolescent boys and men in their 30s

[@almalone3282]

35 year old men and 12 year old boys

[@darthmaul216]

More like 30 and 16. Which btw is fine by Christianity

[@dablackangel]

I would love to see a program/series that depicts the ancient world more accurately.

[@rodb66]

Cecil, that line got me cracking up. 😅😅😅

[@justicethedoggo3648]

Dude it wasn't just Ancient Greece , it was everywhere where religion wasn't there . Persian people did love other men i think u are wrong on that one infact Greeks were not good towards Eunuchs ( femimine gay men) But Persians were

[@douglasfox4894]

This will get the homophobes agitated. So many homophobic guys, usually of a religious bent, are posting so called scholarly explanations of why the ancient Greeks and Romans were not gay. No one has ever said they were. From everything I have read they were no more gay, ie, just into same sex love than we are today. The difference was they had sex and did not define people by labels. Provided they got married they could have sex with anyone within the boundaries of status and whither they were active or submissive. They were very patriarchal societies and so being masculine was important for social status, but they did not judge so much on whom you had sex with. That means if you had sex with another man it just meant you had sex.

[@andrewachilles3085]

one might continue on sexual submission and the separation of thought exemplified paradigmatically in greek history.rome and the threshing floor follow (coc pente)

[@graffiti9145]

Eros is horniness and philia is attachment

[@joeyjojoshabbadoo8153]

That is not what Eros means. Lol

[@Kranti011]

I am writing a paper for this for college. Itd be great if you could tell me your sources?

[@DigitalDiscDreamer]

That's a red flag. If he can't even cite his sources for Greek homosexuality, how can he be trusted for his claims?

[@aokiaoki4238]

"But other savage habits, either originate from disease, or from custom, such as evulsions of the hairs, biting the nails, and besides these eating coals and earth; to which may be added the venereal connection of males with males. For these habits are produced in some persons by nature, but in others from custom; as being accustomed to them from childhood. " Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics. Book VII, Chapter 5 "But the Athenians were so far from thinking that Eros presided over the mere gratification of sexual intercourse, that, though the Academy was manifestly consecrated to Athena, they yet erected in that place also a statue of Eros, and sacrificed to it. " Deipnosophists, Book 13

[@andrewachilles3085]

oh and agreed criminally superficial summary

[@dariuszzukowski5244]

A few weeks ago a conservative leaning, popular history youtuber Metatron published a video titled "The TRUTH About LGBTQ+ in Ancient Greece". In it he claims he gives the objective and source-based facts on this topic. Having no resources to fact-check his statements myself, I'd be really glad to see some kind of a response video by a specialist, as I believe he omitted or misinterpreted many important texts of the era. Do you think it might be worth your time?

[@generichistory]

Although I probably won't do a direct response video, I'm planning a follow up video to this one expanding on the subject to address his claims and others. It will likely take a few months because I have three other videos I want to finish first but in short, yes.

[@grimmsby3011]

Watch Leather Apron Club's video on the subject. He's articulate and he actually provides his sources while giving a nuanced opinion on the matter. Honestly, I'd say he's better than Metatron or this guys channel when it comes to dissecting what ancient peoples most likely thought of taboo subjects.

[@dariuszzukowski5244]

@@grimmsby3011 Thanks for the recommendation

[@morgancunningham3078]

References?

[@OfficialDenzy]

He literally said references in he video by Greek pilosophers

[@danielyang8270]

There is nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality but turning the issue into a political narrative and teaching preferences to children as facts is.

[@kevinhelms1472]

But doing it with heterosexuality is okay?

[@kevinhelms1472]

Forbidding children to see anything except heterosexuality is in fact grooming them to be heterosexual and that is inherently wrong

[@danielyang8270]

@@kevinhelms1472 bro, you insane? lol. how long have you been indoctrinated?

[@darthmaul216]

And who is turning it into a political issue? And at most what is being taught to children is that some people have two mommies and some people have two daddies

[@kevinhelms1472]

@@danielyang8270 What are you talking about? Let me be the first to tell you that heterosexuality was invented like a century ago. How long have you been indoctrinated?

[@leo_dominator4743]

Stop reading Wikipedia please go read books like PLEASE i strongly recommend books

[@odenetheus]

Given that he has a PhD in history, I think it's fair to assume he's read more history books than you...

[@BionicMusic]

It must have been hot af to be able to get your hands on those young , fresh, muscular soldiers 😮‍💨🤤🤤🤤

[@xOGNOGx]

Your explanation of pederasty is quite biased. The relationships were only sometimes sexual in nature, and as you stated, almost never penetrative. In fact, pederastic relationships which became sexual were often loudly and publicly looked down upon, most famously by plato and aristotle. I can't honestly believe that you did enough research to make this otherwise well researched video and did not come across the opinions of these most famous athenians. Nor by the way did you mention that it was illegal to be gay in Athens. You've betrayed a political agenda by these omissions that make what could have been a balanced video clearly a piece meant to pander to what's popular politically. The greeks had a different view on homosexuality than ourselves. I'm not saying they were all ardent homophobes or anything, and I'm not denying that the attitudes towards gay behavior were different back then. I'm only saying how you've presented the information is so biased as to be less than useless. You've made an already contentious argument more murky.

[@generichistory]

I would disagree. Although granted, I voice my support for the legalisation of Gay marriage at the beginning of the video, I think I make it quite clear both at the beginning and the end of the video that the Greeks had a totally different way of looking at the world to us. Also I'm not sure that Athens of all places, where the tyrannicides Harmodios and Aristagiton were heroes, would have ever made homosexuality illegal.

[@xOGNOGx]

@@generichistory You literally say that pederasty started from the desire to form a sexual relationship and then cited extreme examples, which were only recorded to show depravity, as if they were the norm. You're too biased man.

[@generichistory]

​@@xOGNOGx I don't think assuming desire was a key motivator for these relationships is a stretch at all considering that almost all the sources that discuss the topic address it. Even when they do so disapprovingly as I point out in the video at 9:15. I go into more detail in my video on ancient Greek marriage. what point of view would you rather I'd have shown?

[@xOGNOGx]

​@@generichistory All the sources address it? Again, what about Plato, Aristotle, Xenophon, or arguably any number of the most famous playwrights of the day who were expressly against it? I don't think you can be said to have made a balanced video without mentioning these most famous Athenians. Look into Aristotle's ideas on chastity, or the family unit, or Plato (mostly in the Laws, but he develops these ideas as well in his earlier works, mostly the Symposium) talking about how pederastic relationships should not involve touching at all. Clearly the fact that they felt it necessary to write these things shows that they took place sometimes, but it's impossible to deny that it also clearly shows that it was not universally accepted. By not mentioning these examples (which I hold would be very difficult for a survey of this subject to not uncover) you've given a skewed idea of the subject. I think the only reason to give such a skewed perspective is because you were motivated by modern politics.

[@generichistory]

@@xOGNOGx Granted, I would have spoken more about Xenophon s views in a video about Sparta that i planned for after this one, but that is yet to be made. especially Contrasting it with different views ereported by Plutarch. regarding Plato, i did consider mentioning his laws, but decided instead to focus on the Symposium specifically because it was a text focusing on discussing Love, not politics. If i were to do the video today it would be twice as long, but decided instead that the story of Timarchos was a better one to show how sometimes the Greeks dissapproved of Pederasty. especially given it's a historical anecdote, not a philosophical work. I suppose modern politics did effect the conclusion of the video, in which i state that the Greeks discussion about love and sexuality would have no bearing on the modern debate. but I really don't see how that takes away from the video as a whole

[@anitarichmond8930]

A different time, we have both male and female chromosomes in our DNA, therefore it’s instinctive that we could lean either way. “To thine own self be true”& let the world keep up with you. Who but you can tell where your passions dwell,so love deep and well.

[@afwalker1921]

The past is another country. They do things differently there.

[@DanielleA2023]

This was amazing!!!

[@generichistory]

Thanks!

[@siyacer]

Rare

[@babyboi3]

Stole everything, it’s known the Greeks took the knowledge from Egypt and brought it to Greece which is how they learned letters, arts, theology, civilization, etc. i mean Egypt was 5,000 yrs old and Greek was an infant at 2,500!

[@babyboi3]

@@johnk4433 Greece is not as old as Egypt lol. Try about 2500 younger.

[@babyboi3]

@@johnk4433 and plumbing in Greece, that explains the plagues that ravaged those area due to waste and lack of plumbing systems. Did you tell them, or did they forget to flush!!!

[@babyboi3]

@@johnk4433 why are you ignoring the facts, that it’s funny bc they didn’t have in the Medieval Times. So don’t agree with you there. But papyrus was found in Egypt, also Greeks copied their civilization, agriculture, and numerous teachings including theology.

[@babyboi3]

@@johnk4433 lol if you didn’t know that, than you don’t have enough knowledge to even try to debate with me. I’m going to need you to research and catch up before mentioning me again!

[@babyboi3]

@@johnk4433 ancient Greece is much younger than ancient Egypt; the first records of Egyptian civilization date back some 6000 years, while the timeline of ancient Greek civilization usually begins about 3000 years ago.

[@werik76]

Funny. I laughed and learned. Perfect combo

[@binghamguevara6814]

How can gays be equal to straights when both can’t fall in love with each other?

[@vardets1032]

?what

[@binghamguevara6814]

@@vardets1032 My question is simple and easy to understand. Answer it.

[@vardets1032]

@@binghamguevara6814 no it makes no sense. ask a better question

[@frogblasttheventcore69]

@@binghamguevara6814 Get off of mummy's Ipad.

[@binghamguevara6814]

@@vardets1032Equal means the same. But a gay couple is not equal to straight couple. One is attracted to the other gender and the other is not. Also gay men have a penises and are therefore able to impregnate women to create children and a family. This is one of the reason gay men were not allowed to have sexual relations with men because they could produce children with women. How can you ignore the child-producing qualities of a gay men as equal to two men who have penises and can therefore father children but have decided by giving in to their sexuality that they will not father children?

[@FranciscoSantos-ss3uq]

♥💜♥💜♥💜♥♥♥😉👍😉👍😉👍😉👍😉👍😉👍😉👍😉👍😉👍😉♥♥♥💜♥💜♥💜♥💜♥♥♥

[@troygaspard6732]

As a gay man, I have gravitated towards my peers. Other Generation X men. Youth holds no interest for my libido.

[@FranciscoSantos-ss3uq]

♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠❄🌟excelentes videos. Gostei,,🌟❄♠♠♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠♠♠

[@somethingsomething404]

Subbed. Great work!

[@FranciscoSantos-ss3uq]

♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠❄🌟👍bons videos documéntarios.👍🌟❄♠🔷♠♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠

[@FranciscoSantos-ss3uq]

♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠documéntarios muito bém inportantes. Gostei!♠♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠

[@prismatic9804]

Sooo, was it like reverse of todat where there were closeted Hetero people, since it was essentially a requirement to be bi as a man? I find it hard to believe everyone who took part in that area of the culture were truly attracted to men

[@hoboplay6703]

Greek style : man to man.

[@halaldunya918]

Only Semites and West Asians had strong stigmas for same sex relationships, Europeans were always more liberal, until Semites , Jews and Phoenicians, began influencing them, and with the spread of Christianity.

[@OfficialDenzy]

Idk about phoenicians and jews since they were a minority. But Christianity is probably the main cause.

[@gumbycat5226]

If you go to the Petit Palais (Paris) and visit its downstairs collection there is an amazing Greek urn depicting a man about to use and then using a masturbation stick. When I was in Syracuse (Sicily) I saw its female counterpart in the Museum of Antiquities. I like to imagine they were used in the same symposium.

[@brayg1149]

greece w

[@wardafournello]

Another desperate attempt to consider homosexuality widespread and tolerated in Ancient Greece. It is better to stop this effort because it ends up being to your detriment.

[@alexgomez6723]

“Desperate”? You act as if some reach is needed to believe in a homosexual culture in Ancient Greece, now to believe there was some anti-gay bias there is another story.

[@wardafournello]

@@alexgomez6723 But! today homosexuality is promoted and publicized and it is believed that this was also the case in Ancient Greece. Take a look: Law of Solon of Athens that concerned "Sharing homosexuality and homosexual prostitution''. --"He is not allowed to enter Temples. He is not allowed to be crowned at coronations. He is not allowed to enter the sacred space of the market(agora). So anyone who has been convicted as sharing homosexuality and homosexual prostitution but acts contrary to the provisions of the law will be punished with Death!" Referred by Orator Aeschines , text---> "to Timarchus".

[@cool_monke8355]

​@@wardafournello sounds to me like it was more about prostitution and being feminine as said in the video than being homosexual. Also homosexuality is not "promoted", people with brains realise that sexuality is something that can't be changed and doesn't need to, the only thing that is actually promoted and is the main reason for lgbt+ existence is homophobia.

[@JamesTAbernathy]

We should share this video with all the Jesus freaks.

[@somethingsomething404]

I mean, I could see twinks being good motivation to fight wars lmao

[@turkishnationalist565]

😂

[@random6033]

let's just agree that people in the past were fucked up

[@tommycityz6543]

that's why their kingdoms and civilization fail..

[@shitsuckslmao8609]

People nowadays are fucked up

[@TheHollandHS]

That's why you should not treat people as born subhumans before others today . Because we all are born our ancestry from what you find fucked up. That's hypocritical and pointless.

[@dylansharkey6040]

I'm so glad Greece finally passed same sex marriage, I hope they can start to really embrace and own that part of their history, and help normalise it across the globe

[@kokoninski7892]

Haha

[@evetdede]

😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣 🤮🤮

[@someassholeontheinternet1534]

This video is absolute nonsense...

[@FranciscoSantos-ss3uq]

♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠👏💖👏💖👏💖👏💖👏💖👏💖👏💖👏♠♠♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠🔷♠♠♠♠