Homosexuality in Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo - John C. Bennett Pt 3 | LDS Discussions Ep. 51

The team discusses controversial allegations of sexual impropriety against Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett in Nauvoo, the existence of the Danites as a violent vigilante group, Bennett's subsequent exposes of Mormonism after his excommunication, the succession crisis and various Mormon offshoots after Joseph Smith's death, and questions around the authenticity of Mormon truth claims such as the golden plates. There is debate around the accuracy of some historical sources, as well as acknowledgment that early Mormonism contained cult-like elements such as polygamy and unquestioning loyalty tests.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Part 1 - Joseph's Puppet: • Joseph Smith’s Puppet ...
Part 2 - Polygamy & Abortion in Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo: • Polygamy & Abortion in...
LDS Discussions Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
Chapters
00:00:00 LGBTQ shenanigans in Nauvoo?
00:06:29 Accusations of "buggery" (homosexuality)
00:20:38 Sermon by Brigham Young about Bennett
00:30:24 Why was Sodom destroyed?
00:32:46 Joseph Smith’s bisexuality or English Victorianism?
00:40:43 Danites: cross-dressing vigilantes
01:11:00 John C. Bennett Overview
01:20:15 John C. Bennett’s lectures
01:21:18 Missionaries sent to rebut Bennett’s Lies
01:28:05 Anti-Bennett Missionaries
01:29:28 Newspapers and lectures covering Bennett
01:32:11 Reconciliation with Joseph Smith?
01:33:15 Bennett in Nauvoo again?
01:34:50 After the death of Joseph Smith
01:37:17 Succession Crisis
01:38:53 James Strang
01:43:12 Hearsay trash? Strangites throw out Bennett for suggesting polygamy
01:44:35 Bennet becomes close to Dr. Fagen
01:46:32 Ketchup, poultry, and death
01:49:20 Bennett is the man Mormons love to hate
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[@dianethulin1700]

I was called ignorant and told to pray by a Mormon apologist when I correctly pointed out that men were sealed to each other in Nauvoo. Then I was accused of saying they were gay. No, I did not say that! This is very interesting in light of that interaction

[@boydpease4103]

It is called the United Order where men are sealed to each other to have all things in common aaand also provides same gender marriage with all the same intimate priveledges❤

[@johns1834]

@@boydpease4103 Ouch

[@lilyounggamer]

​@@boydpease4103you sound crazy as hell😅😂

[@phxginger]

I'm so grateful I found Mormon Stories podcast. I left the lds church in 1997. Your program has helped me deconstruct the trauma I experienced in the church. Thank you so much

[@reneenolan3163]

I never thought I would catch up! Now I am ‘lost’ without you in my ear! Thank you for a great series!

[@jcarp3472]

I would love to see a deep dive into where the money goes for tithing. I have family who are mormon and they deny its a cult because the money doesn't go to the head of the church that it is shared among members and helps those in need. If that's true, why aren't the mormon Financials open to members to see where the money is going?

[@orisonorchards4251]

It goes into their nearly 200 BILLION dollar hedge fund for Jesus.

[@Wanda69710]

Don’t Mormons promise by oath everything including life to the president of the church? That’s always freaked me out. I would get the willys when I heard it! Sounds cultish to me.

[@rachelhansen2417]

Look at the Widow’s Mite Report. Only 3% goes to charity, and the vast majority (I believe 80%) goes into investments.

[@chloecharlesworth8310]

Why are tithes and offerings confidential? “Because then they would tell us what to do with it..” response by a Mormon leader in a 60-Minutes interview…. Well, isn’t that an idea?! The people giving the leadership their money actually having a say in how it is spent. SO CRAZY! 🧐😜

[@psilocybebae7106]

They have it in a bank, sitting there, doing nothing, all $1B of it. Google it. 😮

[@toducate]

Julia is awesome. She’s so open to other points of view and very careful about letting us know how much of this is hearsay keep up the great work.

[@thenotsodaringdevil]

I'm only halfway through and this may be my favorite episode of LDS Discussions yet. This conversation is so fascinating on all sides.

[@TheSaintelias]

I so agree on JS death stopping the church from ending in an apocalyptic end of days event

[@NerdyGirlLiveLove]

This

[@philsphan4414]

I’m a Catholic so forgive me for looking at this from an outsider perspective. There were loads of religious groups in America at this time, some of which were apocalyptic and I can’t thing of any Jonestowns. The Millerites became the Seventh Day Adventists of today. You’ve also got all the people who founded what eventually became the Community of Christ. Maybe lots of Saints die in a war with the Illinois militia?

[@iamjustsaying1]

Excellent team. Each one of you are full of new, interesting information and insights.

[@stephaniecarlson6689]

Thank you John & your guests, from Steph at New South Wales, Australia ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ I am so happy for you all, that you can all work together - to feel free, dear ones. I will always remember my visiting Sisters ❤❤

[@reneenolan3163]

Oh, and I really appreciate the care and respect Mike shows when discussing difficult topics. There was no one better for this project!

[@marylamphere2112]

Ive been hoping someone would tackle this!!!!

[@lorawhitfield6995]

I would love to see an episode on the Danites and Porter Rockwell.

[@SiphamandlaNgcobo-mu8uk]

I too; an episode on those topics is long overdue.

[@dr33776]

Search for Kurt Ralph Armann, he does some interesting research. I think lds discussions should stick to truth claims, no one cares what John C Bennett had to say about Joseph. We have many other more reliable sources

[@cmrsnowflake]

I did a paper on the Oneida community in college, another 19th century Utopian project with a charismatic preacher leader. I'd love an LDS discussions on early LDS interactions with, reactions to, descriptions of, borrowings from, etc other "cults" of the time period.

[@bigtobacco1098]

Charismatics are also a restoration movement

[@amberlinton7919]

This was an incredibly interesting topic , love looking at the history! Even more, I love this team !

[@Dutchess0909]

Hello from Holland. Love your channel

[@liverman9000]

Hoi! Hoe gat het?! Didn't know there are Mormons in nederland!

[@IAmJustOneMom]

Hello Holland. I love vacationing in your beautiful & unique country.

[@whitcon5]

When you mentioned the various newspapers John C. Bennett submitted articles/information to, I was reminded of an experience at BYU working in special collections. I was one of several student employees tasked with searching through scanned news sheets from the archives and finding ANY mention of Joseph Smith and/or the Mormon Church, and then cropping and saving them all together. I was told BYU has a copy of everything ever published about Mormonism, good or bad. I can't recall exactly, but based on the information y'all presented, I think many of the articles I worked on were contemporary to Bennett's heyday.

[@michaelearendil6843]

Have you ever interviewed Antonio A Feliz, who wrote Out of the Bishop's Closet? It's an older book (1992), but touched me deeply back in the day. He apparently saw some interesting references in old Mormon records. His journey of accepting his homosexuality is a fascinating read.

[@theresazelazny7445]

Great humor served with your content!

[@jessicathurston6494]

In Lucy Mack Smith’s history of Joseph Smith Jr. she refers to him as Joseph Smith Sr. after his dad dies.

[@SternDrive]

While visiting my return missionary brother in Salt Lake, he promised to take us to a park where Homosexuals hook up. He said that many of the people that frequent this park are return missionaries. And sure enough we showed up at the park, and there were young guys dressed in suits meeting up with others with the same goal. I tried to interview some of these guys, and most were a bit standoffish, but I did get to chat with two of them. Apparently this all starts for some of them on their mission. Here you have a young man at the peak of his sexuality, and he's not allowed to date girls. So, some of them turn to their missionary buddies. It's no wonder that for some, their mission is the most traumatic experience in their life.

[@johncunningham739]

There are 38000 lds missionary porn videos on pornhub. That 76000 males with each other.

[@whereintheworld9782]

What? Your brother promised to take you to a public park where men go to find, and engage in, sexual activity with other males? And, because you sought to learn more, you chatted with two men at the park about how they go to the park to engage in such activity? Huh? I hope you reported the information to the police. That sort of activity is not appropriate in public places and certainly not in places where we bring our children.

[@kissesfromawhisper2577]

Many male homosexuaIs seem to have a thing for missionaries. Sexually harassing comments were said to me by adult men in public in the mission beach and pacific beach (San Diego) neighborhoods back in 2002. It was awful and scary seeing how aggressive they were. I was only 18 but looked 14, which made it creepier. I know others have had this experience as well. Even after my wife and I left the church years later I had a coworker think it was funny or appropriate to insinuate/ask in a prurient way if “things went on” between missionaries.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

People don't "become" gay because they have no access to heterosexual relationship. Sexuality is part of who you are.

[@Hallahanify]

I don't believe there is any evidence that would suggest men "turn gay" in such a manner. If they're hooking up with men then they are homosexual, being on the mission didn't turn them that way.

[@cassandrar5127]

As a woman I'm absolutely disgusted by Joseph's predatory behavior. The religion is founded on the uncontrolled impulses of a depraved predator! Gross.

[@MrBlasz]

I really like Julia's perspective.

[@mjordan79705]

My only observation concerning this topic concerns epistemology. The word “homosexual” wasn’t used to describe sexual orientation until the 1870s, so we don’t see sexual orientation discussed at all until the 1870s. While sexual relations between same-sex partners were discussed and often roundly condemned (Andrew Jackson referred to Rufus King as Mrs. Buchanan) there was no understanding that sexual orientation was normal and natural.

[@coppersky]

That’s like saying someone who engages in troll-like behavior isn’t really a troll until the term gets coined & gains wide popularity.

[@sheliabryant3997]

FIRST-CLASS TEAM. FIRST-CLASS REPORTAGE. FIRST-CLASS CHARACTER. 🌈🌈🌈

[@ExmoRaymo]

I really wish Julia would slow down. She talks too fast.

[@SternDrive]

This is a problem for people who have an above average IQ. They have so much going on in their head at any given time. They need to get it out, so they speak at a very fast pace. I think she is cute, and has a lot to say.

[@helenr4300]

watch at slower speed. I speed up videos I find too slow, no need to complain

[@egriffiths8993]

I agree it’s extremely hard to hear what she is saying. I’ve tried down to .5 or .75 speed by the others sound slow and drunk. Can’t they just reminder her to slow tiny a little? I gave up on last one because of this. Can only really fast forward her parts and get the gist from the others.

[@GUAMANIANable]

True, perhaps, but not an excuse. I know brilliant people who talk at a normal rate - maybe faster than some, even, but it doesn't inhibit other's understanding. She would serve herself well to learn how to speak a little more slowly if she wants people to listen to her ideas.43:34 ​@SternDrive

[@nicolewade160]

RIIIGHTT!!!

[@TheMormonAtheist]

Thanks for bringing this info to the masses. Great conversations.

[@erikhorton6433]

Wait, so Bennett was the first self-employed ExMo Content Creator?!

[@DirtmopAZ]

Mike I just saw you on TikTok talking about Taco Bell. Threw me off hahaha

[@brooklynparkse]

The strengthening the church members committee watches for people who causes issues. *Nemo:* Hi! 🥰🌈👋 *Me:* 🤣

[@a.walters123]

Julie is one of the best and foremost voices on true Mormon history and straightforward, objective criticism ❤ she’s absolutely amazing

[@cameronvansant2108]

Julia at 34:20 "no straight way to explain this" Yes!! 😂

[@JaredSJones82]

Thanks!

[@kathrynclass2915]

My American dad you’re to say “you little buggar!!” or “Oh Buggar!” when he was mad. When I got older I learned what it meant and I never understood why my mum didn’t get on his case about using that term.

[@danaleedavis9144]

MSP, Is this series coming back soon? I miss it.

[@zemejal]

Love this series. Excellent team! It may not be fair to judge people’s past actions based on today’s standards of morality, but I’m pretty sure all those women coerced or deceived into polygamy would have lots to say about what’s fair and what’s not. I feel for Emma Smith… I wonder the effect of those ketchup pills.

[@leniburnham9219]

Slower is better.

[@helenr4300]

History of religious movements - there is a pattern that seems to occur in those groups that last' 1st leader gathers the people, brings ideas and teaching, inspires followers etc new spiritual ideas 2nd leader is very managerial; setting boundaries and rules, often stricter, but creates the solid framework to persist as a structure. LDS had Brigham Young; Scientology has David Miscavige as manager and controller; after death of ideas man L Ron Hubbard Jehovah's Witnesses went from Charles Taize Russell as leader of the Bible Students, to 'Judge' Rutherford' - who banned beards (CTR had a great bread); came up with the JW name; banned christmas, birthdays etc (all previously celebrated in the group). You could suggest that Christianity went from Jesus the teacher to Paul who codified a lot of doctrine as later expressed. I don't know who followed Muhammad in Islam.....

[@thanksformutton1037]

1:33:02 instead of reconciling, an attempt to pay the debt may have been Bennett’s final tie to Joseph sever.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

I really value Julies input. I think it would have helped if all 4 however had read D Michael Quinns book in preparation. Also re buggery (sodomy) men also have anal sex in heterosexual relationships. I believe years ago it was used as birth control.

[@maddexq9107]

Amen to all 4 reading Quinn’s book (and taking relevant notes) PRIOR to the podcast.

[@kj4242]

The best neutral and objective sensational waste of time ever created. Keep up the good work.

[@TalismanianDevil]

The men in the dresses were part of Brigham “Madam Pattirini” Morris Young’s “Queens of Utah” drag troop. They performed for Salt Lake’s elite. Other members of the drag troop included William Lingard and Evan Stephens-director of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. A son of Brigham Young, “Madam Pattirini” was an opera singer with a convincing falsetto-The cost of his opera lessons and the obscene amount of silk used for his dresses must have humiliated the poor souls caged in The Lion Den…House.

[@lorinapetranova2607]

Brigham Young and the Utah Queens?!!! He must have been a very ugly personification. This is so hilarious and there's other stuff like how mr Bennett was politicking for a job. Had NPD amongst other things. What a charactter!!! I wonder if he knew about Oscar Wilde. Could have been a different kind of influence on Mr Bennett. Very interesting and well done report n conversation. Ya'll elevated yourselves on this one. 😊l

[@TalismanianDevil]

@@lorinapetranova2607 The Brigham Morris Young or “Madam Pattirini” musical number that made him famous was likely titled 🎭🎶🎵 “There’s Only One Carrot and They All Have to Share It” 🎵🎶🎭

[@lorinapetranova2607]

@@TalismanianDevil BWAHAHAHA

[@function0077]

The newish hymn as sisters in Zion sounds a lot cooler now.

[@bernadetteoriordan132]

I am amazed how the history of the 1830-1900 compactors exactly what is going on in Utha and the Republican Party. I only started watching Morman Stories because I thought it sounded so familiar I am Irish and never heard of this religion and now understand the way Middle America think and why they mentally never progressed

[@boydpease4103]

Joseph Smith was under fire for Polygamy which was more known as the Covenant of Maidservants So when Joseph was told to restore Covenant of Manservants he was afraid to even say the name so he called it the United Order instead in either case "servant" means to serve each other equally

[@llt8101]

Is that like saying "whatever I say can happen in Navu stays in Navu, so long as you don't tell on me".

[@cel2651]

Yaaaas with the snacks Nemo

[@cmrsnowflake]

There's a lot of great stuff out about how the concept of sexual orientation and sexual identity emerge in the twentieth century, and are a sea change from prior ways of categorizing sex. The 1840s definitely would have been different. The book I remember learning this from is "Gay New York" by George Chancey. ... There's also scholarship on the way modern notions of marriage were constructed. I'd have to dig up an old syllabus to find those references, but I remember being floored to read about the way marriage was carefully legally codified to enforce segregation in the US in exactly the period you're talking about.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Sounds like you should have been on the panel for this episode.

[@juliejeppsen7646]

I love these discussions! They are so interesting. But I would like to make a suggestion. I love Julia and her work! But she talks and reads so fast, I find it hard to understand her and find it exhausting trying to follow her. If she could just slow down a bit, it would be so much better. And others I've talked with have made this same observation. Just a suggestion. But love the work!

[@Teajay21]

Id love a show like Catholic stories! Im a former Catholic and i reall would appreciate hearing others

[@bernadetteoriordan132]

Compares exactly

[@jenniferfigueira3293]

I was always told critisizing church leaders is the first step on the road to apostacy.

[@darylstevenett1]

Wasn't JS in Jail in Carthage at this time?

[@matthewburton1734]

I thought They took an oath to the first presidency and I know Porter Rockwell did things for Brigham young in Utah.

[@natureboywonder]

I will take you into heaven as my backload. Classic Joseph. Oy.

[@DavidArmenta78]

“Backload”? What does that mean?

[@johns1834]

Interesting Smith says; Sin is not sin and we shouldn't accuse each other, especially him. This belief has all the earmarks of Freemasonry which has long been considered 'incompatible' with Christianity. Freemasons vow to never testify against another Freemason, even in the case of murder. Freemasons also believe men can achieve salvation by their own good works and have the option to worship any god of their choice, such as Buddha, Mohamed, or a ‘Great Architect of the Universe’ as equal to or greater than Jesus Christ. Smith was strongly opposed freemasonry and secret combinations in early LDS history, but Smith would become a Freemason himself in 1842 and soon after implemented the ‘secret’ temple ceremonies, handshakes, dress, symbols, and covenants, which are eerily similar to the ‘cult like’ satanic Freemasonry secret ceremonies, handshakes, dress, symbols, and covenants. Ezekiel 33: 8 If I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way; he shall die in his iniquity, but you will have saved your life.

[@JohnICX]

The letter at 34:00 could be explained according to the language in The Song of Songs. It was regular to describe a romantic relationship between the individual soul as bride and Christ as bridegroom.

[@carolsurgant6939]

Excusing immorality as if it came from God - sounds like Warren Jeffs.

[@crittkillen]

I love Julia but might I lovingly request that she practice slowing down her speech? It much harder, or may I say it requires so much more unnecessary energy to follow because she speaks so fast. It's possible that I'm just old and its my issue and not her. I love her research, clarity and dedication so this isn't meant be negative in any way.

[@tinahagen9562]

Why are you so winded John? Is it the mic?

[@bernadetteoriordan132]

Buggery is not a swat word in Ireland

[@brantbawden4083]

the Daughter of Zion is found in D. Michael Quinn's book The Mormon Hierarchy, Origins of Power. "In June 1838, Sampson Avard, who considered himself an ultra-loyal Mormon, proposed organizing the "Danites" among other ultra-loyal Mormons. the Danites were the first civil appendage of Mormon power since Zion's Camp. some historians have claimed that Joseph Smith and the rest of the First Presidency were unaware of the Danite organization, but documentary evidence shows otherwise. Organized formally as the Daughters of Zion in June 1838 at Far West, they took their nickname from the prophecy of Daniel about the stone cut out of the mountain without hands." pg. 93

[@user-xh1gu8vu7p]

why did the Danites allow the mob to kill Joseph Smith?

[@boydpease4103]

Actually there were Daughters of Aaron which was however for females to be ordained with the offices deacon tacher Priest of the Aaronic Priesthood

[@llt8101]

If Joseph Smith was looking for a way to equate the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with not listening to the prophet then he should have used Matthew 10. It says that the fates of towns that do not welcome his disciples (when they come preaching) will be worse than the fate of the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah. It also is backing up the claim in Ezekiel, that being inhospitable is what Sodom and Gomorrah did wrong. Matthew 10:11-15 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

[@cameronvansant2108]

About the "young" comment from Brigham Young at about 23:00 -- I think that is unusual and I think it does point to this being about Bennett having relationships with men and women (rather than being about leading men into polygamy.) Men of all ages might have gotten into polygamy, but it sounds like "young" might be not just about age but also about being attractive to Bennett.

[@Maryfs1]

If Mike is batman and Nemo is Robin, then Julia is batwoman! She's even lgbtq just like her! It's a perfect fit!

[@GeoKnowLearning]

Seems to me like Deznats carry on the Danite tradition.

[@skyjust828]

They're throwing Higbee under Bennett 😮 21:00

[@TalismanianDevil]

No, that’s where they found him.

[@skyjust828]

Lmfao @ TalismanianDevil 🤣😂🤣

[@MsCaterific]

💓

[@lsun5322]

Shouldn’t this title be bisexuality? Or non-heterosexuality?? As per your earlier discussion??

[@chitzkoi]

cheer up mate there's no heaven for pedants either

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Agreed.

[@lsun5322]

@@chitzkoijust referring to their own discussion, and being an ally given bi and queer erasure is recognised as being so problematic.

[@lorinapetranova2607]

In comparison or as a person... mr Bennett strikes me as a character who has more morals than either Jo's Smith or Brigham Young. Just sayin from evidence. Many blessings ya'll.

[@Hallahanify]

When a man sleeps with another man it's a homosexual act, Whether they sleep with woman or not.

[@BeachKid74-ct2ob]

About the Danites I’m curious if they were all men, why they were called the ‘DAUGHTERS of Zion’… especially in light of the homosexuality questions….

[@maddexq9107]

Disappointed in the “discussion” more like conjecture around the 18:00 mark regarding some court case. There is a lot of “it feels like to me” and “it could be…” and “I recall John Larsen saying this about J Smith…” - if you’re going to put on a show/podcast about early church history DO YOUR RESEARCH prior to the show. Everyone talking over each other and such - it’s not professional and I find it off putting. Brain Buchanan and Lindsay Hansen Park do a far better job elucidating early church history and discussing the problematic John C Bennett. I guess I was hoping for/expecting the same kind of professionalism, preparation and presentation from John (who is usually quite good).

[@llt8101]

I think the reason that we know the quote is about two people of the same sex is because they call them two "friends" and then say that they would lay down in a bed together. Nobody would have thought that it was appropriate for a female and male pair of friends to lay down in bed together.

[@user-vk5bw5wr6n]

Have you thought about doing a podcast about the LGBTQ children being kicked out of Mormon homes to live on the streets?

[@JaredSJones82]

Julia is such a great add to the group.

[@GUAMANIANable]

Keep it simple - Brigham said "young" simply because they were, not to imply that older men & women were fair game. Not a Mormon here but I think that's a fairer interpretation.

[@AlexanderKleinest]

I read that he was hinting to the judge that abuse against the young is more heinous than abuse against peers, like an inflammatory statement without saying anything explicit or improper in public.

[@boydpease4103]

The United Order or Covenant of Husbandmen anciently provided 3 things Provided a contract to have all resources lands properties pastures water rights and crops and flocks in common Provided that when a man died his wives & children could go to a man under this Covenant instead of going to his father or brothers or other male relative Then also Same Gender marriage We often miss the fact Abraham had Husbandmen and sent one to a location to find a wife(with maidservants) for Isaac which begs the question why Isaac was reticent to marry females unless he was already enamored with his husbandmen!

[@fair1hew]

I think it’s ironic that Nemo thinks he’s the “snack guy”! Surely he knows that Mike is TikTok’s Snack-O-Lator, right? 😂

[@lesliecampbell947]

Please look at the book Son of God Man of Thunder by Harold Schindler a great history of Orin Porter Rockwell.

[@Maryfs1]

Mini eggs are a family tradition for my fam! 😊

[@stephaniecarlson6689]

Steph at New South Wales, Australia. I was visited by Mormon Sisters after Mum died prior to Covid. We shared a deep & caring time together however then - they were gone & they didn't explain that they were leaving.. I want to explain so much more but I've attempted but my content is repeatedly removed!

[@cameronvansant2108]

Woah, Julia got excommunicated for having a relationship with a woman? I've only been introduced to her via these John C Bennett episodes (I'm not a TikToker, lol) but I would love to hear her Mormon Story, if she was comfortable (and had the time!)

[@hairpuppet]

Please do an episode about callings in the church that are paid. The leaders are vocal about lay clergy, while living off the fat. I've heard it goes all the way down to mission presidents, but they are instructed to lie for the lord about it. Meanwhile the church pays full-time staff and student employees at BYU pennies on the dollar, while preaching about the widow's mite to justify it.

[@walterchristley4898]

Re: buggery. American English uses the expression, "bug off."

[@dominique___1980]

The discussion about the court.. 19:00 to 27:-00 ish mark... Joseph Smith sure sounds like how Trump talks. Both charismatic charlatans. Yikes!! Re Danites: That's how many of us refer to the super secret security force down at Temple Rectangle and the Large and Spacious Conference Center. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@katieedwards6444]

Julia seems really stressed and unsure of the information she’s sharing. It’s okay Julia, you’re among peers!

[@dr33776]

She’s unprepared. Lots of I don’t knows, I have to read it again, and speculation. I think she has good short form content but for these long discussions she is not bringing much to the table.

[@Hopenlightment]

Julia…sigh! You can do better! John Dehlin, thank you for your intelligence and keeping the convi on track!!

[@maddexq9107]

Don’t you think all 4 are culpable for failing to be properly prepared?

[@user-xp3dn5po5i]

Uhh..well..John C Bennett was scrubbed from knowledge for a different reason than for a reason of negative look to the church. Select pre '97 apologists would know why. New Apologists however would be completely oblivious and believe in seeing B Bennett as a bane. As per reason it's more a multi tiered complex matter of 'diluting a portion of knowledge' issue that can be perceived as a sort of internal treason if infracted.

[@chloecagle6493]

Doing a Masters in the Garden of Eden! 😍🤣

[@boydpease4103]

It is a curiosity that at 7 years old God told me He had provided a way for same gender attraction Then at 12 about to leave the Baptist church discovering the preliminaries of the Two Covenants surrounding every intimate family relation of Maidservants and Manservants with Abraham Isaac and Jacob Then witnessing its apparent expression with David & Jonathan as at 12 years old I was looking over ar Samuel & Nathan the Prophets whom certainly would have been sent to condemn if their intimate relationship beyond women were not somehow acceptable before the Lord Then Jesus and the parable of the Husbandmen and another Husband to whom the vineyard belonged & the apparent relationship with Mary and Martha and Lazarus and John Then at 18 discover the LDS Church and God told me Here were the Way Provided for Same Gender Attraction with Polygamy & the United Order Yet howwwww slow LDS are to see the TRUTH that I started to see at 12 and still a Baptist albeit that next Sunday at Sunday School of the 1st Baptist Church I publicly expressed I was no longer a Baptist Just as later when seeing these Two Covenants had been BURIED IN THE GROUND that I was no longer LDS Gosh yall no matter what Christianity, you take a stroll through the New Testament and walk up on sompm that is Buried Talents In The Ground.... IT'S A GRAVEYARD with two gravestones!!!!

[@ClaireFabulous-sd5wm]

Gayness is lit tbh

[@darylstevenett1]

Didn't Joseph Die June, 1844?

[@OutToTheWoods]

Julia....please talk slower. I want to hear what you have to say.

[@drmay]

Julia is great. I suggest she still needs to slow way down, she sounds like she's sped up. Also don't say "so" or "so anyway" etc so much, it's a lot.

[@deeperthings]

Next episode: Baba Yaga in a fight to the death with John C. Bennett's chickens.

[@Hopenlightment]

P.S. who of us hasn’t “experienced” with things previously forbidden when leaving ANYTHING! I hope, dear girl, you get a few life experiences, as well as some knowledge (STUDY) before you come on again!! Loved all three of the rest of the hosts!!!

[@maddexq9107]

You think Mike was better than Julia? Ha! Go back to 18:00 or therabouts when he’s saying things like “it feels like to me” or “it could be…” or “I remember listening to John Larsen, and he said Joseph Smith like to accuse others of the same things he was being accused of…” - that’s real scholarship?😂

[@susanhaney3437]

This is not my favorite episode. It seems like you were not super familiar with the material and there was a lot of "maybe" and theorizing.

[@mormonstories]

That’s because the topic wasn’t discussed much back then, and tons of secrecy. We explain this in the episode.

[@susanhaney3437]

@@mormonstories fair enough!

[@whereintheworld9782]

Thin gruel. This channel has been jumping the shark lately. Might as well have called this “The Greatness of the Evidence” a la Scripture Central.

[@sparky9153]

girl take a breath... slow down... why talk if no one can follow your words... waste my time... good topic.. poor presentation...

[@dr33776]

I think she doesn’t fit this series that well. A lot of her content comes from books she read “a long time ago” and is basically just speculating. A little more research and more relevant topics that actually tackle the church’s truth claims, not really interested in abortions, homosexuality or John c Bennett

[@LMinem]

Potentially interesting, but too meandering. I have no interest in fools eating Doritos on air.

[@helenr4300]

a brief banter at the start, part of a continuing joke from an earlier video in the series, nothing more. Sad if that turns you away. Meandering? yes MSP is very long form, and not for everyone, but this is looking at the evidence and the nuances, that takes time.

[@TalismanianDevil]

Did you see him knock back the Mini Eggs? That was just for you.

[@function0077]

Sounds like a foolish comment to me.

[@Hopenlightment]

Disappointed in the girl “expert”! Seems like she wants to make a name for herself by trying to find salacious and “click-bait” topics-for lack of a better term. Says she’s oh so busy “reading” and “studying” yet Nemo has to do it for her!!!