Honest vs Dishonest Syncretism

[@drangelapuca]

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[@Squirrelmind66]

I think a big reason why small, marginalized religious groups - like native traditions - keep their core beliefs secret is precisely to keep them from being absorbed and diluted into a bigger syncretic culture. Dream catchers, for instance, went from being a little-known local practice to becoming a common sight in New Age wellness centers.

[@davidcheater4239]

And a lot of Algonquin people make fun of the New Age Dreamcatchers.

[@sarcasticsaiset9143]

Ooh, since u asked for examples, here's one I see a lot in my practice I'm kemetic and studying heka (ancient egyptian magic) and I noticed a lot of dishonest syncretism in non-academic books on the subject. Most claim to be teaching historical heka, but are usually wicca or western occultism based with some ancient egyptian themes and symbols in the mix. If someone wants to syncretize heka and another practice, great, go for it. But if you're going to be writing a book on it, be honest about where you're pulling from.

[@alansalmi]

One of my best examples of dishonest syncretism is the book “the Kybalion” by the new thought writer, William Walter Atkinson. While a good writer in his own tradition, he attributed the book to ancient hermetic, thought, and did much the same thing with many of the other books that he published through Yogi publications, including making up, fake Indian names, as well as “3 initiates “ 🎀

[@Rynewulf]

Ive heard of Atkinson. I cant speak for their comments on their tradition, but their name definitely comes up in a list of 'insincere new age grifters making up stuff to sell books'

[@GilTheDragon]

So by this metric all pseudoepigraphia would be dishonest?

[@ErikratKhandnalie]

It's actually kind of funny because we *have* surviving Hermetic texts from that time period.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

I dunno about the other books he would have written, much less under pseudonyms meant to imply they're indigenous or whatnot. I don't begrudge the existence of The Kybalion, the 3 Initiates, especially since their provenance isn't exactly and never was traceable to be based on any ancient authentic writing that we know of, like say, for example, The verifiable Dead Sea Scrolls 📜, so to me, as is, The Kybalion doesn't come across as this ancient text that it claims to be, it simply distills a thought of a movement to a kind of hermeticism or neo-, faux-Hermeticism, if you like. So, i never thought it to be a tome that is trying to fool me or pull the wool over my eyes. Always take the good out of it and leave the unverifiable claims behind, that's all. It's an impetus, not a Holy Grail of sorts. Most people reasonably discerning would take this tack/perspective/attitude/approach and not be offended by its invention. Its existence is a kind of boon and a stepping stone. Kinda like the legend of the Holy Grail.

[@chrisfarmer3640]

🎀

[@MisterCynic18]

This is probably one of the more major points to bring up in discussions of contemporary religious practice. Surprised this is the first time I've heard of an attempt at a more formal distinction. I'm also curious about how much of "dishonest" syncretism may just be nonacademics feeling they've discovered some lost truth or secret without fully grasping how foreign it actually is.

[@grimble4564]

Most people just want to feel special without putting into leg work to actually be someone special. You can apply that most things, not just spirituality

[@JLopes]

Thank you for bringing this distinction into the light, and how important it is for us to be aware and informed within our paths where certain ideas may have actually come from🪢🎀

[@dalestaley5637]

Examples: Syncretism - Sikhism Antisyncretism - Evangelicalism

[@PandaNFriends23]

As the daughter of a narcissistic evangelical minister, this made me laugh hard. Thank you for that. Keep ripping into harmful communities. It's important.

[@Hastenforthedawm]

I don't know about that, I see Evangelical Protestantism engaging in the same processes as the New Age movement (which also happens to be the queen of cultural appropriation). They both tend to have a strong influence on each other as well.

[@danielswan2358]

@@PandaNFriends23 It's sad that your father is narcissistic, but that doesn't change the fact that New Age spiritualism is wrong. individual narcissists exist in all religions. The only correct syncretism is in History, Noah = Gilgamesh =...etc. or Dragons (which we see across cultures and shows that Dinosaurs existed at the same time as humans). Jesus is the only way. That's not harmful, that's the truth, and any false ideas that pull from that is harmful.

[@Cesaryeyo]

Evangelicalism is a great example of dishonest syncretism. Evangelicals will adamantly oppose some social issues, and they decades later when they become mainstream they will say that actually the bible always supported them and was part of it from the beginning.

[@danielswan2358]

@@Cesaryeyo Ah, then maybe I am not an evangelical. I am whatever you call a Christian who is still solidly for waiting for marriage and solidly against no fault divorce and other sexual immorality that the Bible is against.

[@katathoombs]

I clicked b/c/o the provocative-ish thumbnail. I found the idea presented agreeable. I wholeheartedly support honesty and transparency in these matters. Good stuff!

[@AbramelinWoW]

Dr. Angela Puca's exploration into honest vs dishonest syncretism through the lens of Italian folk magic tradition Segnature offers a nuanced understanding of how spiritual practices evolve and integrate new elements. Her insightful distinction between transparent integration and misleading incorporation sheds light on the importance of preserving the essence of traditions while allowing them to adapt and grow. This video not only enriches our understanding of syncretism but also highlights the responsibility practitioners and scholars have in maintaining the integrity of these rich traditions. Angela's dedication to academic rigor and her ability to bring complex concepts to a wider audience is truly commendable. Thank you for another enlightening video and for the continuous effort to share peer-reviewed scholarship in such an accessible manner. Your work is a valuable resource for anyone interested in esoteric studies.

[@LaneMaxfield]

I think these definitions are especially useful as an addition to the cultural appropriation discourse, because so often those conversations are premised on the only "good" practices being static, unchanged, unbroken traditions - which is an impossible standard because those don't exist! 🤣 Honest syncretism, on the other hand, does exist, and it's important to acknowledge that. If you can honestly describe where your influences came from, you are less likely, intentionally or unintentionally, engaging in cultural appropriation, and if you are you can be challenged on it in good faith. Whereas dishonest syncretism makes it easy to be sucked into appropriation without knowing it. 🎀

[@alexwelts2553]

The first time I've heard someone officially lighting up this topic,so very important ❤

[@emmayoungblood5131]

Super thanks to Dr. Angela for this video 🎗 Honest syncretism = executing a folk magic curse with a photo of a person instead of burying stuff on their property because hey trespassing is illegal. Dishonest syncretism is claiming Appalachian Grannies venerated the Triple Goddess of Wicca.

[@erikthompson404]

🪢 You speak in a very measured manner. I appreciate your presentation of the material. This is my first visit to your channel. I subscribed because your has been used as a paid professional reference for another video that I watched recently. I am pleased to have shared the time with your thoughts. 🎀

[@Venefica82]

My teacher had a really mixed occult practice. He grew up in Africa and had learned folk magick then got into Western ceremonial magick, Chaos Magick and then also got into American Shamanism, he was a very use what works. But what he always told me was be open about it. He was of mixed Haiti, English and Native American parentage and he worked with methods from all three, he might mix Thelema with shamanism for example but he was always open about what he mixed together and that this was not the way it was originally done. It is like I am mostly Wiccan, my mother is a Reiki pracitioner so I use some of the methods I have learned from her in my Wiccan rituals. If I share the rituals I always make ti clear this is my mix of things and not how things was originally done. I do not know how to make emojis but ribbon ribbon.

[@ArachneAnathema]

Thank you 👒 I studied Hindu philosophies written by Hindus from India, and worshipped at a local temple regularly. . I was deeply fascinated by Chakras, and the deep meaning of them, as well as their real relationship to the health of the body, and how meditating on these chakras can contribute to physical health. Some time later I encountered some new age yoga teachers who clearly had never met an Indian Hindu, and were all concerned about the chakra located behind the knees. (As the First Chakra is Located at the base of the spine, or, the anus, in some translations, this made zero sense to me). I don’t know what kind of spiritual yoga they thought they were practicing, but they were under some delusion they were following an ancient tradition. It made no sense to me. It seemed Inherently dishonest, and they were purporting to be teachers and instructors at a local spiritual wellness center. I don’t know. Something that was woo-woo and apparently made people feel ‘enlightened’.

[@LizardBrain_]

I feel like much of the work that you and your amazing community of resrarchers are doing is filling in these gaps of understanding. Litteraly all of Cracrnford videos are about drawing a line down the appropriations of the religious practices of humanity from beginning to end. It's equally admirable and impressive. Thank you.

[@pedroarroyo345]

This was an amazing and insightful video, it really did a lot to teach a very crucial line that is often breached..especially in the new age culture of syncretic design

[@thewizard4200]

I practice Chaos Magic, for me it's not just a matter of respect and intellectual honesty, but also a matter of color. For example, you can put Futhark Runes in your Chakras with respect and acknowledging their origins, but it's just awful. Magic is also art, your practice can be good or bad just as your art can be good or bad.

[@PavaniGanga]

An outstanding and also practical presentation of the issues.🎀

[@teseraph2043]

🎀loved this discussion. Thank you!

[@neophytedubious]

I really appreciate this topic being covered, trying to study esotericism and occultism leads one to confronting this frequently. I find dishonest synchrotism somewhat easier to identify, as it can often be more obvious after a cursory examination. Dishonest: Blavatsky combining various traditions and attributing claims to ancient sources of perennial wisdom. Honest: As I understand it, a Reconstructionist Pagan using the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram at the end of a ceremony would be honest synchrotism if they acknowledged that it's current format is neither ancient nor mysterious, but comes from the O.T.O crowd? I'm not sure how something like Haitian Catholic practice synchronizing Saints and Loa would fit into this classification---how honest is a forced adoption of elements? Another example of an innovation that I find difficult to sort would be Gandhāran Buddhist communities adopting greco-style statuary arts---this seems to be at least a partially forced adoption of practice imposed by the invading Greek culture, introducing the practice of depicting images to the Buddhist tradition? I suppose there was no effort to conceal the origin, but there wasn't much opportunity to address conflicts with the new practice. Thamk you for the thought-provoking content! 🎗

[@keikisalive]

🎀 thank you, Dr. Puca!

[@genghisgalahad8465]

I love that this episode exists, that you have initiated this critical concise discussion on this particular topic of syncretism, Dr Angela Puca!! 🎉 Much needed especially since the 2012 milieu!

[@rdklkje13]

Stellar example of honest syncretism: Scandinavian Center for Shamanic Studies. Dishonest, well, the vast majority of New Age expressions I've come across, whether outright commercially exploitative or simply ignorant but with, largely, genuine intentions. In your Isis video you talked with great compassion about the flexibility of belief in endeavours to meet the needs of people in their lived contexts. This was helpful, as I've found it particularly difficult to muster such a level of compassion with spiritual circles that went down conspiracy rabbit holes very quickly in February and March 2020 and have stayed there ever since. This conspirituality wouldn't necessarily be a problem if it wasn't for the suddenly rather intense associations with authoritarianism and other disinformation efforts. For the record, I'm not suggesting that these circles are the only ones to have engaged in such shifts in recent years. Just noting that there are implications of the New Age tendencies towards easy acceptance of broad (historical) inaccuracies that can affect all of us in myriad ways. 💝

[@paganjoe1]

🎀What would African syncretic traditions (e.g. Santeria, Hoodoo) be considered? 🎀

[@MaryJane4and20th]

I find theres a difference between genuine mythmaking which many creol societies have done versus the blanket generalizing of “truth” in dishonest appropriation.

[@TheCosmicHedgehog]

🎀 Thank you, Dr Puca! 🎀

[@MaryKateFrank]

As an eclectic Pagan, I am very careful to always acknowledge where my inspiration or ideas originate and to be respectful of anything I use from another culture. Thank you! 🎀

[@drangelapuca]

Thanks for sharing!

[@MagischerPfad]

Very interesting and inspiring video, as always. Thank you for your work! 🎀

[@MrMikkyn]

This is is a very interesting topic. After learning about Pre Islamic Paganism, Zoroastrianism, Caananite Religion, Proto Indo European Civilisation, Early Southern Israelite Religion, and Early Northern Israelite Religion; I’ve come to the conclusion that so many of the religions that exist today were evolutions and mutations of the religions that came before them.

[@EresirThe1st]

Very good work highlighting this disctinction. A particularly egregious example is people bringing liberal ethics into germanic polytheism.

[@iMystic418]

🎀🪢🤫🪢🎀🪢🤫🪢🎀 Very cool video. I am very much in favor of the continued development and blending of spiritual practices and traditions so that different, or more modern, collections of symbolisms, rituals, and frameworks can be formed to help people find their unique flavor of a particular tradition. But this must be done with knowledge of history and honesty about whats happening. Blending is good. But it's definitely dishonest to claim "Truth" of an amalgamated or fabricated change. If we want to see the true potential of spirituality, cultural blending MUST occur. Thank you for the work you do to contribute to this ambitious goal. Its difficult, and undervalued, work. ✌️🫶🦐

[@SarastistheSerpent]

🎀 As someone who practices an eclectic form of Netjerism/Kemetism, there’s always been quite a lot of controversy around syncretism in Egyptian neo-pagan traditions due to the whole Horus=Jesus thing. I feel like that issue actually well illustrates the difference between honest and dishonest syncretism, since Jesus in the Gospels (both canon and not) and Horus actually _do_ have a lot of complementary characteristics that make them good candidates for synchretism, but definitely _not_ in the way that a lot of conspiracy theorists think.

[@cimorene8929]

The Sami people have suffered a lot of historial oppression in Finland, but people sure are happy to dishonestly represent things that are specifically and distinctively Sami, including but not limited to Sami shamanism, as simply "Finnish". In fact, a good portion of stereotypical stuff - souvenir shop stuff, I mean - associated with Finland is actually Sami stuff that hasn't really even been disseminated through the rest of the country and mainstream culture at all. (If the Sami themselves are doing this selling that is completely legit, and it is sometimes the case! But it isn't always the case, unfortunately. All too often it's someone else profiting.) But I've been a little puzzled and surprised several times recently to see the way Sami shamanism and other specifically Sami cultural practices like throat-singing are sometimes talked about in the Finnish mainstream. This isn't to say that the Sami ancestry has been actually hidden in anything I've seen, just that it's been, I guess, surprisingly de-emphasized. S/o to the comment below linking syncretism to cultural appropriation. You could argue that what I'm describing here is simply cultural appropriation, but I think there's an interesting sub-variety of cultural appropriation going on. It's not necessarily analagous to, for example, high fashion or fast fashion copies of traditional or sacred garb of oppressed and colonized peoples. The practices and the shamans aren't being copied or moved. Instead it's a sort of conceptual appropriation that seems to be happening, a bait and switch that is happy to own the historically oppressed linguistic and cultural minority to the extent of, like, forgetting that they even ARE a distinct culture at all, let alone a historically (and presently, somewhat) oppressed one. It's an entitlement to feel ownership of and pleasure in the achievements of Sami as if they are just another hometown success story, a convenient forgetting of a bloody and not-too-distant history. That warm fuzzy sense of identification is apparently not to be found when it comes to legal battles, the latest of which has been basically filibustered to a standstill just in the last year.

[@Davlavi]

Informative as always.🎀🎗🪢

[@aasimmons3]

Do you think that all traditions as they have reached us today inherently contain elements of both honest and dishonest syncretism at some point in there past? I think one could certainly argue this for the largest traditions. Id love to hear your thoughts.

[@Darisiabgal7573]

Absolutely, with an emphasis on dishonest usage. Think about this do you think Jesus really ever thought, gee wow, I would like to be like Dionysus and turn water into wine? Or maybe he thought, gee how would it be nice if I had only had Zoroastrian priest at my birth, and gee, those venus worshippers are really cool, I want my birthday to be on December 25th like their gods. I will give a full response to Angela.

[@aasimmons3]

Exactly. I think you could do this easily with the major faiths, and it seems likely that even shamanistic and animistic traditions follow a similar trajectory to an extent even though the twists and turns would largely be lost to the opacity of time. @@Darisiabgal7573

[@J_Z913]

🎀 Thanks Dr. Puca!

[@chaos1517]

Awesome video 🎀

[@drangelapuca]

Thank you 🤗

[@Frithogar]

The members of the Inner Symposium have been sent a copy of the curated transcript for this video, and it is now available to all Symposiasts at www.innersymposium.study/?p=5533 🪢🎀

[@Dionysius93]

Your precision is neurosurgeon level.

[@hathorsheathen]

Another great video 🎀

[@dansheppard2965]

I think one of the things which can push people towards dishonest syncretism is that historical depth is often used as a proxy for legitimacy in esotericism. I think the key extra step is the effort to find a less lazy reason for the syncretic act -- like you mention in the video, something like it resonating because of X, Y, Z -- then I think people would be less keen to fall back onto history.

[@henriettaskolnick4445]

🎀 very ccol discussion, thank you.

[@chancefoxhauck475]

🎀 Thank you Dr. Angela 💖🎀

[@linwong1494]

Really interesting! In HK, we mix so much to the point that I don’t know if I could even call it syncretism. Our folk beliefs is usually a mix of esoteric Daoism + Buddhism + Feng Shui + Wu Shamanism etc… to me it makes sense with how our history is with colonization and multiple marginalized groups. These practices were brought in and develops naturally over decades, and discourse about mixing particular practices (particularly whether it's okay to burn paper money if you’re buddhist). On the other end, we have new age spirituality and witchcraft taking off, with some people claiming to be in relationship with Freyja, Hekate and using Celtic ogham for divination with Chinese translated copies of E.Flowers books as reference. I am … skeptical, about how honest or authentic a lot of it is, but I don’t think it’s a hill worth dying on when people really aren't interested in research (i was told straight up they aren’t really into reading books, and read tarot based on the images alone. I hate to be judgemental, but it is very difficult not to) Also i know this isn’t really syncretism, but I’ve been dying to share my thoughts.

[@hawkiisjourney5767]

Things can be syncretized honestly. The ancient Greeks assimilated/ syncretized the Canaanite and Phoenician goddess, Astarte, into their pantheon as the goddess Aphrodite. Astarte was also heavily syncretized with Ishtar, to the point where the respective cultures used their names interchangeably at times in texts. But to approriate a culture and dishonestly syncretize it or distort it to something that it's never been and distort the key components of the original tradition is.. A bit disrespectful, generally speaking.

[@MaryJane4and20th]

i feel like also theres a difference between genuine new mythmaking and dishonest appropriation

[@hawkiisjourney5767]

@@MaryJane4and20th absolutely. Stories/mythos/religions grow and evolve as new generations and perspectives come about.

[@AC-dk4fp]

The idea that Aphrodite somehow originates from outside of Greece is actually very controversial and rests entirely of a sea of long discredited ideas that aren't taken seriously by modern experts (mostly dubious etymologies, Cult Prostitution, Dying and Rising Gods and the alleged interchangability of essentialised feminity expressed in so called fertility figures). Its just that a lot of books cite old sources and refuse to engage with up to date material. A semitic origin for the name Aphrodite is plausible due to the unusual non-IndoEuropean name ending that certainly looks like a feminine semitic name but none of the plausible semitic etymologies for Aphrodite can be associated with any recorded epthitets of Astarte or Ishtar. The idea that Aphrodite must have come from Astarte is based on a complete misunderstanding of the semitic pantheon based on planetary associations that got canonised very late and render Ishtar the only Babylonian planet to have an associated goddess. European gender essentialists interpreted this misleading picture of semitic pantheons as implying that there was only one semitic goddess and that all non-Greek goddesses were essentially interchangable and represented a single female ideal inherent to all cultures (except for Greeks who are unique because only they possessed philosophy and abstract thought because many of these thinkers were also white supremecists). Astarte and Aphrodite were both syncretised with the local Goddess of Cyprus but we don't know which happened first or what that Goddess' original name was. The association of Aphrodite with Cyprus rests on an ancient but very dubious folk etymology of one of Aphrodite's ephitets that could have arrived from syncretism in either direction. Eventually Aphrodite was closely associated with the planet Venus which was associated with Inanna and Ishtar millenia earlier but we don't know when or how that happened. There's no real evidence for an early equation between Tammuz and Adonis either, the only piece of evidence for a Cult of Tammuz anywhere near the mediteranian being an Exile era Biblical prophet who may actually be talking about Jewish populatons in Babylon. None of the disparate Adonis myths actually map onto a modern translation of an authentic Tammuz myth and none of the related festivals line up either. Only similarity is the bride's association with the morning star and general morning practices. White Astarte is literally just Ishtar re-imported westwards with the feminine suffix added to distinguish her from the male god of the morning star who had no cult in Babylonia. She just developed a different identity in the coastal areas.

[@hawkiisjourney5767]

@@AC-dk4fp interesting! This detail I didn't know! I just knew of people having drawn comparisons and theorizing Astarte being syncretized with Aphrodite, especially given Aphrodite's early connections to being a war and love deity- similar to Astarte.

[@AC-dk4fp]

@@hawkiisjourney5767 There's too little data about the supposed militaristic variant of Aphrodite for it so be datable. The only evidence for Aphrodite being originally a war goddess requires you to already assume she's derived from Astarte so it can't prove that connection. 'Love goddess' is a pretty vague term. There aren't a lot of overlaps between the mythological interpretation of love in Greece and Mesopotamia. Its hard to place the latter Greek Aphrodite in Ishtar's role in either the Gilgamesh epic or the tale of Inanna and Shukaletuda. None of the Egyptian or Ugaritic Astarte myths really match onto anything from Greek mythology either. The idea of Isthar and Aphrodite having similiar cultic roles is entirely bound up in a misreading of a supposed Assyrian rite of passage mentioned in Herodotus 1.199. Elsewhere Herodotus claims Aphrodite is the same as the Indo-Iranian (male) deity Mitra so he's a very weird source on supposed asian equivilants to Aphrodite.

[@TheSensualSerpien]

Golden Dawn = Dishonest Syncretism

[@skenwrites]

A really interesting topic, thank you for your thoughts on this. What is especially interesting to me here is how this is a modern ethical practitioner's perspective and one that seems to be different from how borrowing has been performed historically. I think what we see is the misrepresentation of lineage and influence as a matter of course. John M. Greer (himself a prominent American druid) discusses this openly in his preface to the 7th edition of Regardie's important "The Golden Dawn", revealing much of the hidden documents of that influential order (that probably needs no introduction to your audience). Central co-founder of the Golden Dawn, William W. Westcott presented a "false narrative" of a "myth of origin" for the foundational secrets of the Order and Greer soberly points out that "[s]uch legends are romantic and appealing to the magical imagination, but they should never be understood to be historically accurate." Likewise, did Helena 'Madame' Blavatsky really visit Tibet? And, if not, does this impact Theosophy? The Gardnerian Wicca tradition also was less than clear on real influences from ceremonial magic and so on. I think Starhawk, in the introduction to the 20th anniversary 1999 edition of her book Spiral Dances, put it honestly: "Writing as a Witch, I felt free to involve my imagination in a reconstruction of the past. ... [w]hat gives the Goddess tradition validity is how it works for us now, in the moment, not whether or not someone else worshipped this particular image in the past." With all this in mind, proposing a mythical origin may even be seen as some kind of genre and, in its own way, traditional! But I agree with what some of the other commentators have said, that you are presenting a perspective that is clearly informed by the contemporary concerns of cultural appropriation and post-colonialism. This is right and good, but we should definitely recognise it as a modern ethical position that problematises the typical way occult work was done in the past. We also live in an age where we have so much information that people even in the recent past did not, thanks to the internet and the wide availability of occult scholarship. One cannot as easily get away with misrepresenting the facts. In my own research, I have seen what I might call a retreat into symbolism to allow some mythologising practices to continue while acknowledging their limits.

[@Bildgesmythe]

🎗 I can never find the emoji. Very interesting video. I can see how a practice could be irreparably harmed by dishonest syncretism

[@tarenmauga9582]

Great vid

[@tommyschmierer4627]

🪢🎀🎗️,.. there ya go ... Rope & ribbons 😁... Also, I enjoy watching your videos... Thanks for the work that you do 🙏...

[@slickandslaycious6579]

🎀🎗️ This was a great shade for discussion around honesty and syncretism! I agree on the comfort and resiliency in an honest approach… made all the more stark by religions’ tendency at claims of truth.

[@slickandslaycious6579]

Dishonest Syncretism: Only referencing a practice and knowledge as just a scientific fact, instead of including references to the particular new age belief system that initiated it. So then mainstream religion can use it as if it didn’t start with a particular belief system.

[@slickandslaycious6579]

Honesty Syncretism: Referencing a concept by the names that were associated with the religious practice it was with and commenting on how the truth of that truth is evident even in your own practice

[@mattisvov]

Very interesting and thoughtful. Resonated with me, as I guess you could say I take a kind of synkretistic approach to my own spirituality. Looking all over for ideas, symbols, nay, for a language to talk about my spirituality. I mean, I guess there are pros and cons to that, in principle. Aiming for breath rather than depth. But in any case, have worked for me. I have learned that about myself, I must find my own method to do things. Anyway, thanks for this perspective. A big nice ribbon for you!

[@allpau6199]

I liked this shorter video 🎀

[@Darisiabgal7573]

I have a critique here but I want to exclude folk magick and belief system that are circum-religious. I have no particular good knowledge of 'shamanistic' development or the widespread social importance. In my opinion religions, their composite pious notions, are functional elements within civil systems of governence that developed in the bronze age and have persisted into the modern period as a means of creating loyalty and alliances. At their peak there were 1000s of gods and large sets of pious notions in various ovelapping systems in which the gods became functionaries in trade. This was mentioned by the last hititte king as he handed over the process of dealing with the gods who meddle in trade to his mythic canaanite wife. Her death essentially ushered in the late bronze age collpase were 1000s of gods just disappeared. If you were a god of a household trading organization and your network of trade collapsed your gods simply died as if they never existed. In the aftermath of this systemic collapse we see the rise in popularity of gods like Marduk, a minor village god at the time of Sargon, basically usurping the traits of 50 other gods, and their names as well as fifty names or traits of his divine father Ea. This would characterize gods of the period that followed the collapse, including Yahweh. This process of assimilating gods deviates from the processes out of the Uruk period by creating alliance by signifying gods and 'anointing' their kings (note: not anointing, but their salacious version thereof). The period that follows has the greeks essentialy syncretizing gods so that they can put statues of Zeus or Augustus in every city as a show of dominance and create loyalties. In the intermediate period there is alot of purposeful god killing going on to effectively sweep religions of its inconvinient polytheistic past (.e.g Yosiah at Bethel - Asherah and El). The notion of a king is to have an all powerful god behind him. This is borrowed by christianity and power gods cannot subdivide their power as Uruk period gods did. The important word here is power. Again, how are saintly icons, crosses, menorah, wailing walls, the Torah&Quran&Gospels and other symbols acting in these belief systems. These are agents of divine power in monotheistic religions. Every disclaimer is these are not idols, but there is often a statement of magickal power either directly or indirectly implicit. If not access to the power then what are these agents therefore? Prayers to the saints for instance give access to Jesus or the Fathers ear. The Quran is the word of gods messengers, messengers are Angles. So christians are talking to angels and muslim are listening to angels. But we are to understand that Angelos evolved in the canaanite pantheon and were adopted by judaism to replace the canaanite Elohim (Anunnuki, igigi equivilent). In the borrowing of these elements from other systems and adding them to new systems there has to be the interrogation, is the current system not powerful enough that new power elements should be added. What is the function of adding power elements? to make them more competitive with christianity, to give them a better social glossing. If you are going to argue that a particular belief system is completely voluntary and uncoerced or void of propoganda then its stands to reason that the focus should be on a defense of its esoteric nature, not on exoteric competition with other beliefs. I lived in a theosophical household, the base of the belief was driven by the commercialization of beliefs to the absurd, cheapening that which was valuable in the theosophical society. Coming out of that environment I came to realize we should study belief, but the best divine are held close to oneself and ones roots, and in my opinion this is the only divine that produces the good fruit. As a consequence I have studied the origin and evolution of religion and religious people and consolidated the view that adaptating symbols of power, in various schemes are what distinguishes religion, credal faiths that ensure loyalty not divinity. What protects the old gods. Why protect the old gods? In the state of collapse the early iron age canaanites clamored to the old-god El, he was the protector of the wilderness. As the iron age swepted south towards israel settlements organized into kingdoms and kingdoms needed city state gods. This pyridimal scheme of gods was flawed by the notion that the top god also needed to be the supreme god, which was not true in Sumer, the new schemata had new gods over throwing the celestial sky god (you could call it the astrological whole), and the scheme was not immune from complete revision. This is what happened and from it developed a system of "us" versus "them" (e.g. today Zionist versus the anti-Zionist, Z versus those others on our frontiers). There is a certain lesson to be learned here based in the philosphy of the individuality of culture and belief and it goes back to a hard lesson. During the antediluvian period the Sumerians built a city "proto"Mari into the territory of other peoples (Suhum, Tenetk (Hit), and the pastoral trade roots of the Mar.Tu). This lead to war, shuruppak lost control of its trade roots, they were razed, their river dried up, and then they were flooded as they lost the inability to manage the Euphrates. This was followed by a renewed effort, this time partnering with the Amorites and repopopulating Mari. Most of what we know about early civilization, the gods, etc indirectly results from this partnership, the semites were allowed to keep their gods and the Sumerians even embraced them naming cities after these gods. Of the overwheming majority of cuneiform tablets we now have, most are akkadian, some sumerian and even a few hittite and a trace of hattic expression. The point is that power destroyes belief (Just look up Lugal Zagasi), that people need to be acceptable to beliefs that are not anchored in 'worldy' power structures. While beliefs evolve an esoteric practicioner should be wary of the introduction of power elements, particularly those with broad appeal that reflect some sort of empowering magick that easily becomes an exoteric part of the belief. Esotericism does not need empowering elements, these are faux-pas. This is what turned against Alyster Crowley, he had the power within himself he admits as much, but instead he wanted more, more is not better. What became of theosophy, it diluted itself with cheap nonsense beliefs that were laughable. Such shamanistic groups should be willing to educate, but they also need to defend themselves against populism as populism is often a fad, and we can see that the religion of the first and greatest civilization on earth, collapsed, its gods, to the last one also died. Assyria extended over three continents how many people remember the name of its god? What were his attributes? his foundational story? His capital? how he came to be? If you want to know what power gods do to the "soul" read the story of Shalmanezzer IV (i believe) and his descendants. Did Assyria topple because of more powerful gods? or because it cannibalized itself until it consumed its spiritual self?

[@-_-j]

Hi there! I just wanted to start by expressing my genuine appreciation for your content. Thank you so much for sharing it! I was wondering if you could possibly consider adjusting the volume of the intro music. I'm a bit sensitive to loud sounds, and your voice is so soothing, the introduction music being loud is a little unpleasant for me. You seem to be using a good microphone, but, it seems that the microphone gain might be a tad high, resulting in some compression in the recording. The volume bar in your recording program should reach the red color, but the color is a warning, because if the volume reaches the absolute end of the bar, that means the sound is being compressed. If you play around with the line gain a bit, you might find a better balance and result, so we can all hear your beautiful accent properly.

[@martinwilliams9866]

Also, whether the new additions are congruent or incongruent with the whole body of the particular tradition. This is related to a deep problem I've been tying to solve, what constitutes a catagory, i.e., what determines the inclusion or exclusion of a piece of information to a catagory. This is dependent on the definition of a catagory, for example if one's definition of say "Causal Astrology" is the influence of the Planets & Constellations upon behavior, then it's quite a different subject from a definition of the influence of Astronomical objects & systems on behavior, which unlike the former includes the possibility of geosolar influences & therefore circadian cycles & seasonality, i.e. scientific subjects. There is also the idea of what I call "Shadow Knowlege," that which is marginalised to the periphery of a catagory, & is often quite important to understanding the main body of knowledge of that catagory.

[@Serai3]

I'm extremely suspicious of gatekeeping. Who's handing out these Hall Monitor badges, anyway?

[@jakeaurod]

My thoughts too. But maybe claiming it's _revelation_ is a get out of detention free card.

[@LB-vf2hm]

If that comment is aimed at Angela, I'd like to point out that beyond the one example she used, she really isn't pointing fingers. Keeping the syncretism in your own practice honest is left as an exercise for the viewer to perform at their own discretion. Beyond that, she isn't even saying there are wrong things or wrong ways to syncretize, just that knowing and acknowledging historical context is valuable. What you do with that historical context -- If anything -- is up to you.

[@phillipbernhardt-house6907]

🎀 I couldn't find a rope...but I wonder: is the ribbon to represent honest syncretism tying everything up with a nice bow, so to speak, but a rope being how people provide tons of rope that just ends up being used to hang themselves in dishonest syncretism? ;) I think there's quite a few good examples of what you're calling honest syncretism, which I won't name so as not to show undue favor to certain things that I like and approve of personally; but for dishonest syncretism, sadly, there's also a lot of examples, and a huge number of them happen to fall into one of my areas of expertise: namely, Celtic (and particularly Irish) paganism/polytheism, where one can find all sorts of things, including bad understandings of the material on its own terms, and loads of imported irrelevant things being read into it (e.g. the "Maiden, Mother, Crone" ideas, the ideas of certain Deities being "God/desses of ____" which don't really play out very well, certain Wiccan theological notions, certain notions of "drudism" derived from the Enlightenment period or later read into centuries or millennia earlier, and all the way to some Norse practitioners saying that the Irish Deities are actually just a subset of some of the Norse ones, which doesn't at all smack of colonialism at all [sarcasm mode engaged!]...plus much else besides) which often obscure or distort what is actually there and known to be authentic. While I don't dispute that some of those things may be "better" for some people and more resonant for them, continuing to think those ideas are "genuine" and "ancient" when they're no more authentic to it all than saying the Ascended Masters were involved in all of the Old Irish myths really annoys me, especially when these things are said in deliberate ignorant defiance of looking into what is actually there because doing so is "hard" and might involve questioning some confirmation bias, etc. Anyway....!?! It's like what our math teachers used to tell us: if you don't "show your work," the answer you get isn't valid even if it is correct.

[@bluesteel1389]

I'd like to hear your opinion on how these tie into colonized nations, like the Philippines. Because I think you're on to something but there are much greater sociological and anthropological examples too.

[@julians9763]

The best syncretism is to keep your original tradrations are kept and as we live in a technological age and many of us have the opportunity to travel, a latter day Segnatura or Segnatore, can learn traditions outside their zone. The best thing is to not to intergrate elements and people who will ruin the original tradrations.🎀🎗️ . I am sending you two ribbons that I could find in my Chromebook.

[@cheetavontiebolt9971]

It is how it is done

[@cheetavontiebolt9971]

I know of Christo paganism it combines elements of both their is more then 1 right way

[@KristosHilario]

You're a true academician and a true scholar. Thank you

[@jonathanj.7344]

🎗 Ribbon emoji. Thank you Angela.

[@noself7889]

I practice a variety of traditions but try to keep them separate. Most modern practices from ancient traditions have syncretized from other lineages and some have even adapted to modern times and cultures.

[@KimberllyBeatrice]

🎀 I consider Blavatsky's theisophism a dishonest syncretistic doctrine. 🎀

[@MenocchiosMill]

When you first brought up the topic of segnature I was to say the least giddy, I have done my fair amount of work trying to catalogue and find commonalities between the regional folklores and folk practices of Italy, sadly when I went researching your work in academia and researchgate I found very little... It was a bit sad for me... I will happily check again Any idea where I could find a more complete form of your study (if it is available)

[@Frithogar]

I have good news and bad news. The good news is Dr Puca's work on Segnature will be published as a book in May this year. The bad news is that Brill is publishing it, so it will be quite expensive brill.com/display/title/69608?rskey=OJdqz9 - In the meanwhile, she has papers on academia.edu leedstrinity.academia.edu/AngelaPuca

[@MenocchiosMill]

@@Frithogar yes, I have read her articles, all I think well... All those that were available at the time. PS: She has updated them from what I can see, at least some seem to be (well comparing to what I Remember of them). I must say, the article on the segnature is now much more complete and articulated from what I remembered, a great improvement. I suppose the one I read at the times is the version of it which has now been made unavailable.

[@MasterofOblivion1]

How should ideas of syncretism be influenced by power structures in society? For example minority groups responding to forced conversions while still trying to keep a traditional belief system?

[@Frithogar]

Dr Puca touches on this in a video on the definition of an indigenous religion compared to the political use of the term. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYnPhWyMaq6raq8

[@thomasdolcelli4969]

I wish I could give an example. I'm part of a Gothic conclave and we have many speakers, know what is true and is made up has always been a problem for me. 🎀

[@Wichan137]

there are just some people and video out there stating what they believe is facts, and that immediately makes me suspicious. bc ppl who practice syncretism should know everything is opinion.

[@abryant9166]

Hey Angela, I’m curious to know if you’ve heard anything or plan on doing a video at some point on the Janara of Benevento. My grandmother was born there and came to the states when she was 14, so it’s a topic that has interested me for awhile, but there isn’t a whole lot of information on it other than hear-say.

[@GilTheDragon]

I'm curious as to what is the use of this framework; because what counts as sufficient respect or disclosure is liable to vary within a religious community; especially within flexible or decentralized systems or chains of transmission where attribution can quickly get lost without there being an attempt at deception. Like is syncretism-as-survival honest or dishonest? Like there's a pretty big gulf between the sort of supremacist colonizing imposition of AMs used as example of dishonest syncretism &... Whatever might be honest syncretism.

[@Andre-qo5ek]

ok... so ... lets go one step further... if we know "dishonest" things are injected into these ideas... then what dishonest ideas are in the "traditional" versions? where is the line that we call something traditional or honest?

[@robertborland5083]

What I find interesting is much of the distinction of "honest" vs "dishonest" syncretism is similar to discourse around cultural appropriation more broadly. If any two groups of people are in contact with each other, there will be exchange of practices; it becomes appropriation when a hegemonic group takes a practice from a non-hegemonic one, converting it into a form that is marketable in the former culture, and disempowering the people who made the practice. Rock music is a great example; the genre developed from blues -- a genre that itself is "honestly syncretic," emerging from Western & West African music traditions -- and created by predominantly Black artists but they frequently did not make it as big due to record companies investing into white musicians to make rock music more acceptable to a white audience. People are much more familiar with Elvis's cover of "Hound Dog" than "Big Mama" Thornton's original performance, and the more popular cover has lost much of the original's nuances, making it something of a "dishonest syncretism". With the example of "Ascended Masters" in Segnature, it is a change made by people less familiar with the tradition to sell it to an audience of people less familiar with Segnature by adding elements from something they are more familiar with. (EDIT: Something to keep in mind is it is difficult to know what lies in the cloisters of the heart, and it seems many of the "dishonest syncretizers" might describe themselves as loving or appreciating the cultural practice they are appropriating. I do not want to judge folks as individually bad people but as irresponsibly making changes to a cultural practice without respecting those who initially made it.)

[@aquilathered8444]

Well I apologize if I have done too much of this in my speculations, now I know the proper way thank you.🎀

[@MI-gn9lg]

But wait, aren’t traditions themselves the result of centuries’ worth of what you call “dishonest” syncretism or simply creativity? Isn’t this what historians call the invention of tradition? Or do ancient falsehoods simply become sanitized by age and group acceptance? Do you take traditional claims of, say, superhuman originators at face value?

[@Frithogar]

I am puzzled. Dr Puca states, at kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIiciY2GmNmSp7c she states, "Through my experiences and reflections on traditions like Segnature, it has become increasingly clear to me that syncretism, the blending of different cultural, religious, or philosophical elements, is not just an inevitable aspect of spiritual practices but a fundamentally enriching one." Did you watch the video to the end? She says that if you want to syncretise elements of another practice - great, just be honest about it. We cannot know all the motivations of the ancients, but when the Romans adopted Greek myths, they were open about their origins.

[@MI-gn9lg]

@@Frithogar We are only seemingly disagreeing but this would be best explored over beers rather than on a YT comment diatribe ;-)

[@aceofspades3973]

@@Frithogar The Romans were absolutely not open and honest about their syncretism with other religions. They typically understood the gods of other religions as manifestations of their own gods, and this has definitely had some harmful effects for history. There are some gods who we only know about through Roman records, and the Romans weren't concerned about preserving those traditions authentically in their own right, so most of that lore has just been lost.

[@M155ABYSS]

I recently bought an oracle deck that is seemingly based on the Celtic sabbats and it consistently uses the term “higher self”. I have no problem with the term higher self (which in my understanding, is a new age term) in regards to traditional pagan practices but it’s use is not addressed anywhere (that I could find). I can’t even correlate it to a Celtic pagan idea. PS:It’s The Seasons of the Witch:Mabon. If anyone understands something I don’t about the use of this term in regards to paganism please let me know, Im genuinely confused. 🎀

[@elizadys]

Those decks are very eclectic. They're based on the modern Neopagan "Wheel of the Year" - which was conceived based somewhat on Celtic traditions, but not exclusively. Definitely not intended to be specifically-Celtic decks, just centered on something that incorporates Celtic influences such as the four cross-quarter fire festivals, alongside other things like the Anglo-Saxon solar sabbats (equinoxes and solstices). The Wheel was created in the middle of the 20th century, mostly by Gardner and Nichols (respective founders of Wicca and OBOD/modern Druidry). The Wheel of the Year itself aside, the creators of that deck series come from quite globally diverse traditions & neither identify as Celtic practitioners (afaik). The term "Higher Self" comes to the New Age largely via Theosophy, where it is also called Atma in that tradition. The Golden Dawn, which alongside the New Age movement was also influenced by Theosophy, brings a focus on creating a connection to Higher Self into Western Esotericism. A lot of what today is lumped together under the auspices of "ceremonial magick" is related to connecting to one's Higher Self, or Holy Guardian Angel. Largely both the Esoteric and New Age ideas of Higher Self, though, can be traced back to Helena Blavatsky and Theosophy. Folks using that phrase may mean it in a more New Thought or New Age kind of way, or they may be influenced by Golden Dawn or some of the many traditions that came after it which the Golden Dawn influenced. 🎀

[@capitalistraven]

🪢 I am highly ecclectic in my practice but a large part of what i do is inspired by ancient Greco Roman mystery cults. To say it is "inspired by" is honest, to say it is a reconstruction would be misleading.

[@christopherellis2663]

Reminds me of the Mexicans in Brave New World

[@Mubgoo]

I see a lot of examples in the comments that point to books attributed to anterior and renowned, sometimes made up authors. While some of these examples are coming from writer with dubious ideologies, I wouldn't castigate the practice, the Zohar and a lot of french grimoires were attributed to other authors also as a way to not only inscribe the words in a tradition but also as an endeavor to "reactualize" these traditions.

[@wardenofeden]

🎀 🪢 thank you !!

[@scottygordon3280]

I feel like many established religions make innovations by erroneously reading them back into the tradition. It seems that each of the abrahamic religions have done this, especially regarding more “mystical” or “philosophical” ideas. Mahayana Buddhism seems to have done this as well in establishing itself as a distinct kind of Buddhism. I often wonder whether this creates a kind of paradox of inauthentic additions becoming authentic simply by being part of a tradition for long enough. I’d be curious to hear others’ thoughts on this.

[@MaryJane4and20th]

i think thats just genuine mythmaking. maybe the line isnt so clear. idk thats different than someone fully believing and teachimg others they have a chakra behind their knees??(saw that in another comment. Like lol)

[@Riddlemewalker]

🎗Brava!

[@yvonnepeltier9815]

🎀🎗️👒💝➰🪢🚡 All the ribbon and rope emojis I could find, lol. I agree completely with practicing honesty and respect if combining traditions, worship, etc. Historical and cultural sensitivity and accuracy are important

[@livrowland171]

I see what you mean, and can see there's nothing traditionally Italian about asceded masters. I don't know anything about segnature but I'm not so sure how someone would he supposed to introduce some kind of disclaimer about the term not being traditional in the middle of a ritual?

[@spoiledbeandip2129]

I suppose in Wicca honest syncretism would be the tools and rituals since they are drawn upon ceremonial magic and dishonest syncretism would probably be the wheel of the year since its a blend of different festivals and pagan holidays from all over Europe . I reckon I have the right idea of these concepts but I don't know lol.

[@bryangustafson2748]

I have a really good example to clarify. The king cake is an example I use of honest syncretism. It started in Europe as a food served during Ephinany (the days following Christmas). The Spanish Church made it using an original recipe for the holidays. When the Spanish met with the voodoo priesthood in New Orleans they found out that the priests used colored sugar to create a new version of the cake. So they instituted the practice of eating the Spanish cake for Ephinany and kept the sugary version for the new holiday of mardi gras. On the other hand Dishonest Syncretism seemingly pops up every time I hear about the topic of the native religion of my local tribe of the wampanoag people. Every time they come up with a new economic strategy it always seems like a (dishonest) christian says it was their own idea!

[@ben_eighth]

What does she mean by using her segnatura to describe how it fits with an existing practice can someone explain?

[@Frithogar]

Segnature is the name Italian practitioners have chosen for their version of initiatory folk magic, used mostly for healing. It uses hand gestures combined with words to magicaly help their community. Before the advent of the internet, hostility from the church meant that it was kept underground as much as possible. Now, practitioners are finding that every town and village has someone who can perform these forms of magic and are sharing it with each other. Dr Puca has a video explaining how she discovered this, kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3qUiZ6jj7GKnacsi=Ep0nM19n93r5RN_Z

[@ben_eighth]

@@Frithogar wow thanks & thanks for the link to the video.

[@seanmcswiggan4615]

I had a Muslim friend tell me that Abraham built that black box in mecca that was certainly around before Muhammad and was used for ceremonies or rituals. I wonder how much of Christianity and Islam is false Syncretism.

[@ciprianom8394]

❤❤❤

[@humaneventures9821]

🎀

[@ProfHarden]

red ribbon

[@RickyDog1989]

🎗🎀

[@truefairytale164]

Can you please make a video on Hindu goddess Kali or Dashmahavidyas because west often look then as evil or demonic though people still very much worship them

[@pixiechicjk]

💕👍👍👍💕

[@artemkhmara5406]

🎀💝

[@Persephonetoo]

🎀 ❤️

[@johnshannon9656]

Then onward . . .

[@jakeaurod]

I'm not sure what to think. I've heard some refer to syncretism, or certain instances of it, as theological or spiritual imperialism. I understand that thought process, but it also leads me to wonder if those accusers therefore want to erect fences around their claims to theological or spiritual territory where only they can serve as gatekeepers. I wonder this because I suspect there is an intermediate position between honest and dishonest, with honest representing "Ima just borrow this, thanks" and dishonest representing "been caught stealin'", with an intermediate position being "whoa, It was me who stole my dad's keys". Or would this intermediate position be more properly recognized as _revelatory_ instead of syncretic, thereby avoiding all the claims of theological or spiritual imperialism? 🎀

[@Rynewulf]

Ive come across the claims of imperialism as well. They usually tend to be from either gate keeping types who get power from claiming ownership, or segregationists who want to keep everyone in separate pockets that never meet. Its always a claim to be suspicious of: unless they are making a coherent argument using evidence for say historical empires deliberately using syncretism as a tool, they are probably just espousing a private view that they think 'pure' and 'impure' groups shouldnt mix

[@cheetavontiebolt9971]

I am pagan I worship Egyptian Greek Norse and Babyllonian dieties yule log came from the norse

[@thyhandrevolve]

🎀 ➰️🧗‍♀️💛🦋✨️