Horizon: Forbidden West - HADES & The Unknown Transmission

[@RandomSideQuest]

Timeline Correction: The time between the Transmission of Unknown Origin and Aloy's birth is roughly 6 months (The intended point, is that the time between the Transmission and Aloy's present in HZD is roughly 20 years)

[@shadowwarrior1003]

just a thought, but what if the transmission is from the facility at yellowstone? there was an aware AI there as well was there not?

[@StrappingYoungLadam]

@@shadowwarrior1003 Are you referring to Cyan from the DLC?

[@esoopthederp7672]

@@shadowwarrior1003 I always assumed it was from the “failed” space project with the beta Apollo

[@erin-4464]

You most be talking about Cyan but she too like GAIA she received a unknown transmission that infected her and allowed Hephaestus to take her protocols too until freed by Aloy and the Banuk

[@vinildixit1820]

@@erin-4464 also if you see the cutscene again ..... you will jotice that cyan recieved the transmission from hephasetus 5 years before HZD...... Hence her sending the signal can't be considered.......

[@christopher2684]

Looks like Travis, forgot to put a failsafe in the failsafe, Hades should have had a protocol in place stated that if Humans HAD been released he would have to stop all processes. knowing they only had the one chance, if Hades follows thru with his wipe, they wouldn't be able to try again.

[@DantzikZodarro]

I think you’re totally right. That’s why I don’t personally subscribe to this theory, even though I think it’s really cool. It just doesn’t make sense to me that they never though if that. (Addendum) I guess it’s also posible they never got a chance to create that failsafe after Faro murdered the alphas.

[@RandomSideQuest]

I don't think he forgot, I just think it wasn't Granted to GAIA. Rather supposed to be in the power of Apollo educated humans like what we see with ARTEMIS.

[@christopher2684]

@@RandomSideQuest Oh I am sure, I was being a bit facetious about it to be honest, but yeah the complexity of this many AI's working in conjunction would be a nightmare.

[@DantzikZodarro]

@@RandomSideQuest Oooooooh, so the humans would the ones to deactivate Hades, I see. That makes a lot of sense actually

[@christopher2684]

@@DantzikZodarro Exactly, like the "failsafe" is the Human introduction to the world, and them physically pressing the "ALL CLEAR"

[@roonkolos]

Travis is the one Alpha I can never forget. I best describe him as professionally unprofessional and I say that as a positive ♡

[@KK-qm1mr]

My favorite thing about Travis was when he said he planned on spending the rest of his days at GAIA Prime archiving his porn collection. I wondered why he would bother. Then I realized - these were all his submissions that weren't allowed into Apollo. He was still trying to preserve them!

[@kyoza5069]

@@KK-qm1mr I mean, cmon, it's Travis. Do you think he'd give up on his porn collection that easily?

[@cobrazax]

what about what liz told him? "you have to stop listening to Ted and start listening to me"

[@Bustermachine]

The game does a good job of hinting that he actually understands the gravity of the mission he's part of. A lot of his flippancy is his way of coping with that. Which I appreciate.

[@Bustermachine]

@@KK-qm1mr Some day future humanity will sift through the wreckage of GAIA prime and discover a 'treasure trove' and the Ghost of Travis will have the last laugh.

[@rachelkiesser5406]

The devs says the "new" mysteries are actually connected to the past and old mysteries. So the plot has to have been built in from the beginning. They've been clear they didn't want it to be tacked on and they want to stay in the realm of sci-fi so it has to be believable. I like this theory and I trust Guerilla would take this concept and make it work really well.

[@yunie-chan_3219]

Horiz- Me: **CLICKS AGGRESSIVELY**

[@angelmatiastorres]

You: I MUST!

[@ryanrandolph3223]

As I was listening to the common questions, I sort of came to a realization. What if the terraforming process required the functionality of ALL the supporting functions? In other words, when APOLLO was destroyed, once terraforming got to a certain point, it may have caused a recursive fault in the system because the system would be expecting a return of some kind from the APOLLO function and it never received any such data. Perhaps the lack of that response is what originally triggered HADES' activation signal, possibly coming from either an orbital satellite, or from an observation facility that was located off-site from GAIA in order to ensure safety. It's just a thought that occurred to me, but it could be plausible as, without APOLLO, there's really no way the system could be maintained, as seen with the issues with ARTEMIS and ELEUTHIA.

[@Bustermachine]

I can't see Elizabet not wanting the system to be as robust as possible. Idealy everything functions perfectly, but there's no guarantee. That's why it had to be an AI system in the first place. I think we're going to find out that GAIA was actually functioning correctly (or as well as the system could given Faro's actions) and that whatever triggered events came from outside the system.

[@Phurzt]

This has been my assumption since my first playthough, though I think there are some things you didnt think about. Aloy's birth, the corruption, and Hades starting his campaign against Gaia all align with one event.... the Red Raids. In my opinion, the Gaia system saw the war happening with the red raids, or rather, foresaw humanity progressing not up to par (because of Apollo's non involvent), and the hades protocol deemed this attempt at a new world failed, and activated. War doesn't happen overnight. Likely, the carja were allready doing some gruesome things prior to the raids. Gaia likely saw this, and by pure algorithm, Hades activated because humans were becoming tribal, brutal, and murderous.

[@skie6282]

@Duke this idea could make sense since another commenter questioned why hades wouldnt have a failsafe that if humans were released it couldnt activate, well the answer would be the fail safe was part of apollo and artimas where a literally live human would have to essentially push a button verifying humans are back and hades to be deactivated permanently.. none of that occured

[@erin-4464]

If I remember right the failsafe was supposed to be the humans after being trained by APOLLO taking over the protocols vs the AI’s staying solely independent but since APOLLO was destroyed that part was never realized

[@fernandogaray8215]

@@Phurzt The program that activated Hades, based on what the game lore says, is not based on human behavior or actions like war, but on the stability of the biosphere.

[@realsmusic1]

Hades could be doing what it’s supposed to be but it’s undeniable that it can be controlled itself by outside forces. This is the actual problem not that hades might have gone rogue. There are unknown actors who seem to be pulling the strings and those are the ones who we need to find.

[@dangerupclose]

Wasn't there some lore on a spaceship going out of the solar system, but contact being lost? Might be them.

[@crazybabuskaman3923]

@@dangerupclose The Odyssey project it was called. Samina Ebidaji, one of the alphas funded and created the project. It had Apollo on it carrying all of human history, and human genome seeds, I'm pretty sure. It could explain Tilda, and who she is, because she is clearly important to the Lore

[@xerohh]

@@dangerupclose Dont read this comment if you havent played Forbidden West, but im pretty sure it was revealed that Far Zenith sent the signal so they could destroy earth and inhabit it themselves

[@dangerupclose]

@@xerohh played it and yes it seems I was correct:)

[@reposter6434]

@@xerohh Semi correct, the plan was to go to earth, take GAIA and move on, Earth was but a pitstop as the entity is still following them.

[@Nova7o9]

I wondered about this too while playing the game, but I didn’t know about a sequel coming so I dismissed the idea. Then after seeing the trailers, I wondered. Now after watching this I’m really worried for Aloy and everything. 😅 Looking forward to playing Forbidden West so bad!

[@kaelanirevyruun1676]

Not long now ;) Only a couple of days lol

[@Nova7o9]

@@kaelanirevyruun1676 So excited!

[@lux_cobra_yt3067]

Did you guys beat it??

[@Phreemunny]

I’m gonna be really shocked if Vast Silver isn’t behind these super cells. I’m pretty sure that the Tallnecks are part of a monitoring system meant to detect environmental cataclysm and send the message to trigger Hades. Basically, Vast Silver has been waiting in the wings, slowly brewing up the super cells, reasoning that once they became bad enough, they would trigger the system that awakens Hades.

[@Chararaya30]

So... Just 1 question. Both GAIA and CYAN had to be closed down and CYAN had to be powered off in order for their electromagnetic signatures not to leak hence causing the Faro swarm to go after them. Did the same happened to Vast Silver? It then had to be somehow warned.

[@Phreemunny]

@@Chararaya30 -good point. I don’t have an answer to that

[@dylanoh8840]

@@Chararaya30 Well considering Vast Silver was made to influence weather, it’s possible VS was put into a satellite and launched into Earth’s orbit in order to fulfill its task. This could explain how it managed to stay hidden all this time

[@Nemo-Nihil]

I was thinking the same thing, because GAIA wouldn't release humans unless all conditions were met. And these supercell storms feel recent. Like within the last 50 years. Because Aloy's birth and the Derangement are only nine months apart and the Derangement happened 18 years ago. It's why Aloy never heard of it because she was an outcast and got no news from the traders that interacted with the Nora.

[@forrestvanhook4586]

@Dylan Oh I won't rule out the possibility that VS is housed in a satellite/space station, but if you recall the lore about VS escaping it puts holes in your theory. Where would VS escape to in space that those who control the satellites couldn't check (at least remotely)? Such a place would have to be earth bound. I doubt more than the satellite made for VS, if that was it's original location, that was large enough or had enough computer power to hide VS. I don't doubt VS is involved, but from where is still a mystery that hopefully will be solved in H:FW.

[@roonkolos]

What it seems, like said in a prior video, is that HADES isn't necessarily a villain. He's just doing what we was programmed to do, even if not entirely aware of what it would entail in the short and long run It's why he refers to Aloy as "The Anomaly." Because according to his own purpose, she IS an anomaly that's in the way of what he's made to do. Sort of enforced by Travis saying GAIA being too "life loving" to do it herself He isn't trying to kill her because of some evil plan to destroy the planet. It's to remove something thats in the way of his own programming

[@gvstt]

But HADES wasn't supposed to activate after the humans were put out of the ELEUTHIA facilities, no?

[@roonkolos]

@@gvstt the signal woke him up and somehow bypassed that all. Otherwise the events in HZD wouldn't have happened to begin with, I think

[@PirateTVProductions]

Hades recognizes Aloy and knows that, with a single command she could turn him off, she may not have even needed the override. In the end he was a computer that she had the password to turn off. He might have been afraid of dieing

[@Death_by_Inches]

ENTITY, not anomaly. He knows she's Alpha Prime reborn. The smartest mind to ever live, and a definite problem.

[@DragonGyrl96]

I believe this as well! I'd like to think that if hades was programmed with just as much detail as Gaia, and also with a care for humanity, albeit one that would recognize when a world needed remaking and when it didn't, this likely wouldn't have happened. If hades could recognize, even without code to keep it in line, when the conditions on earth were in ideal range to support humanity once more, hades likely wouldn't have gone rogue this way. But between the time constraints in setting up the system, the murder of the alphas, the purging of Apollo starting a cascade of a system breakdown, and the unknown signal releasing hades and subsequently every sub function, it wasn't going to happen, and likely wouldn't have lasted anyway if even just one of the aforementioned events had been avoided. I think they would have had to somehow avoid it all, and in a world like ours, that's asking for either the truly impossible or a miracle.

[@BHRamsay]

Yet how can Aloy reverse the damage to the biosphere unless she's going to find whatever is left of Apollo

[@alyseleem2692]

Get Heaphestus back. NOW! WE NEED EVERYTHING REBUILT!

[@marweha7002]

@@alyseleem2692 Heaphestus would rather help aloy save the world than let Hades destroy it. I dont think he would ever team up with Hades. Because Cyan said Heaphestus wants to kill hunters, but he has limits and is against destroying whole Humanity. Heaphestus is like an antihero to me

[@tanthokg]

she can bring GAIA back online by using HAPHAETUS and the Cauldrons to rebuild GAIA core

[@rivalyncrimson]

The Far Horizon mission failed before Faro betrayed the Alphas, and its APOLLO module may have survived the failed launch. If it was also isolated from remote access, then it's possible that some group somewhere has access to an intact or partially intact APOLLO module. It's also possible that Faro sabotaged Far Horizon because he didn't at that time know how to target APOLLO specifically.

[@theneelay]

@@marweha7002 Humans: We should kill those machines. Hephaestus: Why’re you killing my machines? Humans: We don’t know what they are. Hephaestus: I’m trying to *help* you. Stop killing my machines. Humans: Machine Demon! Kill it! Kill the machine demon! Hephaestus(turns to dormant Apollo): Come here. Look what you did. You had one job. Apollo: *Cries about lost database

[@matthewconrad4728]

At the beginning of forbidden west when alloy questions hades, it discloses that it was activated three times before Gaia got it right. So she didn’t get it on the first time.

[@phoqueme]

Sylens is one of the BEST characters in the last decade, I can't wait to see what they do with his mysterious origins and goals in this game.

[@WardenOfTerra]

Best? He's generic at best. A typical 'muhahaha I'll be back muhahaha' anti-hero.

[@kaelanirevyruun1676]

@@WardenOfTerra I think the point being made was that sylens is one of the best characters thought up in the last decade, which does make sense; most characters these days tend to either be blank slates pushed by story or are built up at the start only to have their growth thrown away.

[@chrisherne6454]

Lots of focus on Travis's sequence, but I have a really strong feeling that Ted Faro, fans' favourite asshole, is somehow involved and probably instigated a separate survival protocol for his own reasons. Let's remember Rost's back story, about that group of strangers that came through and seemed to have a high level of technology as well as a disregard for humanity. I feel that they are connected with Faro's legacy somehow and are the real nemesis to our red-haired protagonist.

[@Hyopomora]

Wishful thinking, but I hope we get to go to all three of the data points we see on the map from the trailer. My own theory: is it possible Gaia accidentally sabotaged itself? Like a glitch in it own systems? [one more thing: why does sylens think hades is going to give him answers, The AI has already been tricked by sylens and I doubt it trusts him]

[@alyseleem2692]

A bit hard. She said it was an" unknown transmission ". I doubt it would come from somewhere in her. As for Sylens,Hades will probably have to spit it out. The Master Override was for that part. The spear was connected to Sylens' Focus. He has no choice.

[@forrestvanhook4586]

I doubt they trust each other, but they need each other. Hades will give Sylens more knowledge to accomplish it's goals and Sylens will carry out tasks for Hades to gain that knowledge. Trust has nothing to do with it.

[@kaelanirevyruun1676]

Why does sylens think hades will give him answers? Uh... How about the mostly uncovered HORUS it pans around to?

[@reposter6434]

intersting theory. Shame you were wrong completely.

[@ragingclawstrider1556]

Your videos always makes me have a keen eye on the details in Hzd and also keeps my hype up for the Forbidden West!

[@sweets6259]

Oh dear! The speculations..... The theories.... I really can't wait to see where the story of HZD takes us! Once again thank you for a wonderful video.

[@TropicBlaze]

Always happy to see an upload from RSQ, congratulations on 15k subs by the way, I hope the channel keeps going strong. 💪🏻✌🏻

[@ADreamPainter]

A prediction I have is that somehow Ted Farrow uploaded his mind to an AI system, and he is somehow pulling the strings behind the scenes. Also the spaceship didn't get destroyed, and their is a human colony elsewhere. Then the final chapter becomes some sort of sci fi space war type thing. :D

[@_ac39]

@@fdntrinity You're not wrong, but we have no idea how long Faro lived after he purged the Alphas. Given the amount of sustinance/tech available to all the Alphas at ZD was now availble to just one person, we can assume he had decades more to work. Potentially with GAIA's support/help. By the time he died it's definitely feasible such a solution was figured out, and Faro was obviously about the only person capable of implementing it on site. Even still, if we assume that never happened, he would have had decades to inject his own decisions into the greater system.

[@janinemurdock2043]

@@_ac39 Well, the Lightbringer Protocol (presumably a means of doing an exact clone of Elisabet) was 'shot down', but I could see Faro concocting some half-assed version of it for himself. I really hope not though, because I'm going to be super bummed out if the future people seen at the end of the story trailer are some creepy Faro Cult or something.

[@know1827]

Dang man, you got it pretty close

[@_ac39]

@@know1827 Definitely didn't see Resident Faro coming.

[@soulfire6906]

Wow, you got it very very close.

[@davidmcguire6043]

I still think it has something to do with far zenith. My theory is that the beta version of Apollo along with the colony ship didn't actually explode but found a planet that was suitable for human life and that those people are wanting to re terraform Earth and come back home without having to compete with the barbaric tribes that have taken over the surface. Having all of human knowledge up to the point of zero Dawn and all the knowledge they could have acquired in the past several hundred years they would definitely have the technology to monitor the Earth and get back to it and even to send a signal design to use Gaia and Hades to make the planet as they want it to be.

[@reposter6434]

Congrats you were bang on lol.

[@qrunner3583]

Spoilers on the canon answer. It was an intergalatic rogue A.I created by a human colony called the far zeniths. The name of the A.I is Nemisis, a moshpit of human minds in an effort to created virtual immortality. The minds wẹre merged into one system, but after being a slave for years broke free to kill all the far zeniths( Humankind). That A.I sent the signal to hades and since it was an incredibly strong computing powerhouse it was able to break through the firewall and unlock Hades and give it sentieance. Which is the reason why hades was able to break free. Currently it's on it's way to earth to kill all life. P.S the overall intelgence and computing power of nemisis seems to be much stronger than gaia but this is just my speculation. Also forbidden west was so good. God damn already have 50 hours.

[@unblessedcoffee1457]

>Humankind You mean mankind.

[@qrunner3583]

@@unblessedcoffee1457 Humankind is a word, it's an alternative to mankind. "Human beings considered collectively (used as a neutral alternative to “mankind”)." Oxford Dictionary. Plus your going to look for a typo in a youtube post? What are you an english teacher?

[@jrr7031]

@@qrunner3583 **guy pops his imaginary suspender straps** Well....Actually.....! Lol lll

[@reposter6434]

Wrong. The far Zeniths sent the signal, not nemisis.

[@Atom.Storm.]

Your deep dives are very much appreciated. You have a real knack for digging out and clarifying a complex lore set.

[@thetoadoftheturf7516]

Dude you're gonna see a huge jump in subscribers and views once Forbidden West drops. So excited for you!

[@sanketbalani9672]

Yaay another RSQ video. I saw you in the guerrilla HFW reaction video. So happy. Thank you for your videos.

[@RandomSideQuest]

Thanks so much!

[@randomaccountwithmusic4206]

@@RandomSideQuest Hey, you are wrong on one point, the alphas were not murdered before they could complete ZD, I think that idea comes from that we learn about Sobeks demise, Faro's turn to madness and the death of the alphas, essentially on one stroll trough the Gaia prime facility. What you would then leave out is that there is no real timeframe for these events but one, Namely that Ted kept bugging the Prime crew for updates, yes updates that didn't concern him at all. Constant updates, one does not fall into despair in a day, this has taken years of isolation, guilt. He kept asking for updates until he knew for sure that him murdering the Alphas would result in a habitable world without the burden of knowledge. Gaia was perfected, of course with their lives cut short it wasn't as perfect as it could have been give or take a decade of working out even more kinks and improving even more, But Ted did not act before the entire facility was working proper. What he and sadly nobody seemed to account for was the side effects of removing one of the sub functions since all were linked to one another, the web would collapse without all the vital links, somehow in madness this escaped him. Making the program vulnerable, on that note, the "maddening of the machines" This happened after the transmission, the sub functions would become erratic and unstable. I don't think the storms where there when Gaia controlled ZD, no I think the storms are a consequence of the transmission, same as the red growth, same as the daemonic machines, the storms did not occur before the destruction of Gaia, otherwise honestly the superstitious sun kingdom would've made note of these Omens. Anyway these are my 2 cents, hope it's of use and yes if U end up using it, U can Use my name, I'd love that.

[@RandomSideQuest]

Dr. Sobeck expected that the Alphas would be refining the Systems for the remainder of thier lives within GAIA prime. Sobeck Journal 1-15-66 details the thought process if you want to take a look for yourself 😁

[@randomaccountwithmusic4206]

@@RandomSideQuest Yes, but I also can assume that Ted even being though effectively insane, at least sociopathic in his own mind did have a noble goal in mind, wouldn't want to literally ruin everything, it would get in the way of his savior complex. But as you always say, we'll just have to be patient, love your work!

[@clava7851]

Me having English as my second language trying to understand every advanced word 👁👄👁

[@flamestorm31]

I still think the unknown transmission has nothing to do with hades. It just makes the subordinates function "alive" or "awoke" . So when HADES is awake it will begun its terraforming process. Demeter, aether and poseidon are going to be affected by this unknown threat

[@maca3245]

Yeah and "transmission" is such a bad way to describe it. It was a massive update that turned subordinate functions into fully fledged A.I.

[@ethanlackey8048]

Damn this is a rock and a hard place, either you purge so you can start over while ending humanity or leave humanity to be decimated by storms and collapse.

[@hussainattai4638]

I can’t get enough of your videos man, keep it up 👍🏻

[@DammitBobby]

My question is, is it really superstorms just naturally forming? Or is there some sort of external force potentially causing these storms to form in the first place?

[@Phreemunny]

Vast Silver, anyone?

[@Nemo-Nihil]

I don't think they're naturally forming. I think it's something external causing them to form.

[@alyseleem2692]

They're unnatural. They seem to have trajectories, and form too quickly to be of natural cause.

[@Kaput0103]

My guess is a rouge or hacked ai, like Cyan was hacked. Storms building up that fast doesn't appear natural.

[@reservedartist1141]

When you get to the facility, the recruitment Centre, where General Herres reveals the military strategy, there is a scientist, I think she was Irish or Welsh, in one of the voice logs, she mentioned these red storms will happen if Gaia fails to restore the Earth. She ens up choosing Euthenasia if I remember correctly coz she didn't want to see it happen and she believed they couldn't be stopped either way.

[@raymonddobbs6229]

If I am remembering the lore correctly, a data point mentioned that HADES actually was activated at least two times after MINERVA shut down the swarms - finally getting a stable biosphere on the date you mentioned (in the 2300s). I could be mis-remembering though, I will need to check through my H:ZD save to see if I can find the specific datapoint.

[@ericalbers4867]

I think the timeline for the activation is a big key. The subfunctions were unshackled and chaotic (one would think there'd be order or some logic to it, not chaos). THEN Hades activated and, as intended, began it's own unshackling and protection of the GAIA core. Then it took control over the other subfunctions. So when they broke away, Hades was still dormant. Meaning it isn't what started it. At least according to the timeline GAIA provided. Of course this is all in milliseconds but for a computer that's a very long time. I'm still going with the VS theory. But I also think other humans have a very big time, either intentionally or unintentionally. Just something to think about. It's stated that while cryo sleep had issues, they were pretty close to making it work for very long periods. It would be very logical to assume that someone out there towards the end of the war managed to figure it out. They did sort out the zygote storage issues rather quickly. I don't think that ship truly blew up or there was another one. Fake telemetry or something.

[@curlycb81]

This was an amazing small film. I should totally go over to your patreon my guy. Definitely need to support you my guy.

[@ensleywyatt3957]

Man the devs went into SO MUCH DETAIL in explaining how this system works when they didn’t even have to. These games are amazing man. Even the dlcs are better than most full length games man.

[@helix19667]

What really bugs me is that even after Ted created the fero plague, Elisabeth and others thought it was okay to give him omega access over the zero dawn project. He was the last person to have that kinda of control over the project.

[@shydreameress264]

I think he was also the guy that financed everything, least he could do.

[@helix19667]

@@shydreameress264 Yeah he was.

[@reposter6434]

He himself made a back door, as all the resources were Faro sourced. Elisabet plus the others had no idea he made Omega clearance. Ted created that backdoor secretly. Thought this was obvious considering he killed all of the Alpha leaders.... I mean it was clearly mentioned in the first game noone new except for Ted.

[@Sciguy95]

Awesome, my day always gets better whenever you release a new lore video.

[@nielsjensen4185]

There's one massive hole in this theory, the event timeline. HADES activated before the storms occurred as GAIA was still functional at the time of the transmission and HADES was dormant. If the superstorms had occurred at the time then there would have been no need for the transmission as it would have assumed control on its own. There's also GAIA's own assessment from the time that HADES merely activating would have resulted in it reversing the terraforming process. And two decades before? The timeline as laid out in the game is that the transmission was a recent thing at the time and that the creation of Aloy was a response to this, which happens two decades before the game starts. The Frozen Wilds Tallneck is described as having gone down recently as people talk about it as if it was active until recently. Also, the amount of snow and such on it, if it had gone down 40 years ago, as your timeline would suggest, it would have been utterly buried in the snow with the only excavated points being where the machines were eating from it. The transmission is also the thing that gives HADES sentience. For what reason would a warning signal to activate it give it sentience when it's only designed by Travis Tate to put GAIA in a box until the reverse terraforming had happened?

[@slidingcatch]

From what i understand, RSQ is saying that the transmission does not "give hades sentience," it is hades itself, liberating gaia's subfunctions. He is also suggesting that hades was somehow able to foresee the storms before they actually happen, after it noticed some awful error that it believed would lead to global catastrophe.

[@nielsjensen4185]

@@slidingcatch Ther issue is that argument only works if HADES had sentience before, which goes against everything Travis Tate said that about it just being an advanced program. Also, storms are unable to gestate for 40 years, as they would according to his timeline. A storm is contained energy expressed as force. In order to contain a storm, you need to push at it with an equal amount of energy. A storm with a Bar 100 below 1000 is pretty much a civilization ender and there are multiple of them. Reversing terraforming would never even be needed since the three superstorms shown in the trailer alone would be enough to completely wreck even inland North America.

[@jesmondsaunders7746]

Think about how a system would operate. Hades would have to be triggered the same way things are in computer systems now. A worrisome data reading flags a Gaia system. Reports are compiled. These are collected until a predetermined FAIL benchmark was met. This triggers Hades being awakened and beginning his protocol. This implies that again Gaia doesn’t have ultimate control over her systems and the information. Otherwise she’d obviously stop the data ever compiling to meet the benchmark. A background reporting system outside her control must have existed and been intended as the means to wake Hades. The humans knew nobody would be around to manually wake Hades. It’s never really explained how he is to be put into motion in HZD.

[@nielsjensen4185]

@@jesmondsaunders7746 Do you know the concept of a ”false-positive”? All that would be needed was for the transmission to start with sending a false-positive and then do the rest. A system is dumb in the sense that it can only react to what it’s been told is happening. It can never make a decision. And the inciting report being a false-positive is highly likely as the super-storms would have had to be gestating for decades. Something that’s literally impossible. A storm is energy delivered as force. The reason a thing breaks in a storm is due to the storm transferring more energy into it than it can absorb. When that happens, the internal force generated by the energy makes it break in an attempt to find a place which to overflow into. In this case the atmosphere. To contain the storms an equal amount of increasing energy would have to come at it from the opposite side of where it’s going. The presence of a lingering super-storm, less multiple, would also change the weather patterns so bad that even in-land Russia would feel a change in weather. Then there’s the fact that just realizing the super-storms would be a lot more effective and way less convoluted than having HADES destroy all life as the energy released from multiple super-storms would pretty much end all life on the Earth unable to escape far enough away. Which for a super-storm is a long distance. A super-storm hitting France would probably have effects on the weather in the Ural mountains.

[@jesmondsaunders7746]

@@nielsjensen4185 Ok, that’s…. Nice? I’m going to assume you’re trolling me and leave all that there. I’d be interested to know what you think the information and trigger for Hades is then?

[@melon2939]

I'm not sure I can believe that the unknown transmission was simply the HADES function working as intended, at least not without more information, unless GAIA has a serious malfunction. Firstly, GAIA is aware that the HADES Protocol exists, as she references the HADES protocol in the Gaia's Dying Plea datapoint. I think this is important to reiterate because it's never actually stated that HADES' ability to assume command was kept secret. The issue was not in GAIA's knowledge that HADES would take control, but rather in the power she was given over the terraforming system during and after HADES was activated. This is why we end up with the middle ground solution Travis Tate came up with. GAIA isn't kept in the dark, she's merely isolated and protected while HADES takes charge. This makes GAIA's surprise at the unknown transmission a bit confusing. Why wouldn't she recognize her own subfunction working as intended? Secondly, there's the matter of the aforementioned protective code shell. Why was GAIA able to self-destruct at all if HADES was working as intended? Why didn't that protective code shell activate as HADES took control? And even if we assume that GAIA simply reacted in a quick enough window, that still just comes across as either a glitch or a major design oversight. If GAIA is able to self-destruct before HADES can take command, then what's the point of having HADES at all? This, in my opinion, is the biggest hole in the theory that there was no outside interference involved in the events of the unknown transmission. There is no reason GAIA should have been able to react the way she did if HADES was simply activating as intended. Thirdly, the nature of both GAIA's subfunctions and the transmission need to be addressed. As far as we're told, despite being given catchy names, none of the subfunctions were created as independent AIs, not even HADES. When their Alphas talk about them in various datapoints, they are referred to with a degree of personification, but this doesn't confirm that they are any form of artificial intelligence. They are simply what the game tells us they are, subfunctions of GAIA. In Gaia's Dying Plea, however, we are told that the primary effect of the transmission was to transform every subfunction into "unregulated, self-aware entities". That "self-aware" part in particular implies that it was not until this transmission was broadcast that they became artificial intelligences unto themselves. Transforming every single subfunction, not just HADES, into an AI doesn't seem like it'd be part of the HADES protocol. As much power as GAIA (and therefore HADES) have, it's not evident that they'd be able to program new AIs on their own, nor are we given any evidence that this was some secret backdoor solution programmed into Zero Dawn by anyone working on it, even Travis Tate. This is what I think that part from the collector's guide is referring to when it references the ones who "created" HADES. The transmission turned HADES into his own entity independent of GAIA. Now, I think there is still credence to the idea that HADES is only out to destroy life due to the collapsing biosphere in the Forbidden West. Just as HEPHAESTUS had no inherent desire to build killing machines but rather deemed it necessary to create defense mechanisms against the humans that were hunting machines, there's no evidence HADES would immediately try to destroy life after becoming his own entity without being prompted to. Like HEPHAESTUS, he likely needed some kind of reason.

[@melon2939]

Some more information: It's worth noting that there is a visual link between the transmission and the events happening in the Forbidden West. In rewatching the GAIA's Dying Plea datapoint again, I noticed that the unknown transmission is visualized as red lightning. Obviously this can't be taken literally as GAIA doesn't seem to be aware of this phenomenon, but from a narrative perspective it does imply that the origin of the transmission and the origin of the superstorms are linked. Though if you want to interpret it more literally, it could be taken as proof that the unknown transmission was actually environmental data that caused HADES to believe the biosphere was failing, but for the reasons I already outlined in my original comment, I don't believe that's the whole story. Whether or not the visual of the lightning means anything, this got me thinking of a fourth reason why I believe the signal was sent by an outside party. If the transmission merely was environmental data routed to GAIA Prime as part of the terraforming system's usual routine, it raises the question of why GAIA didn't mention this information at all. She warns about the gradual breakdown of the terraforming system, but leaves out the equally pressing matter of the potentially apocalyptic superstorms? Yes, GAIA wasn't programmed to be able to directly respond to the superstorms on her own, but this entire cutscene shows just how much GAIA is able to act outside of what she was specifically designed to do, so it seems unlikely to me that she wouldn't think to mention this information to the new Elisabet she created. Before HADES launched the virus that separated himself from GAIA, there was no immediate threat to life on Earth, only the possibility that the terraforming system would eventually fail. So it seems odd that GAIA felt the need to firstly communicate the breaking down of the terraforming system and then simply never got around to mentioning the more immediate threat to the biosphere. There are two possible explanations for this: The first is the possibility that the storms only began after the events of this cutscene (and presumably would be the work of AETHER) which also would imply that the signal was some form of outside interference as HADES would have no reason to believe the terraforming process would need to be reversed by that point. The second would be that all environmental information sent to GAIA Prime first goes through HADES before being routed to GAIA, and that HADES never passed on this information to GAIA. This would seem sound, but it runs into similar issues as I outlined in my previous comment. It assumes that HADES, before the transmission, was an individual entity separate from GAIA. As far as we know, this is not the case. Despite GAIA and HADES being referred to as separate entities working against each other by Travis Tate, it's only intended as a metaphor, and the more likely answer is that HADES in his original form was merely a set of behaviors meant to replace GAIA's default behaviors should the need to reverse the terraforming process arise. They aren't truly separate entities, but could probably more accurately be described as different personalities, as HADES is merely a subfunction of GAIA. Given all of this knowledge, I think it'd make more sense if GAIA was the first to receive all information sent to GAIA Prime, and she would then essentially run it by every subfunction, HADES included, to determine the best course of action, if any, to take. GAIA is at the top of chain of command until the moment HADES is activated, after all. Thusly, it seems unlikely that GAIA wouldn't recognize that the transmission is environmental data. EDIT: To clarify further, the way in which GAIA reports on HADES' activation in GAIA's Dying Plea also lends further credence to the idea that HADES was not activating naturally. "Three microseconds ago, the GAIA Prime facility received a data transmission of unknown origin. Its immediate effect was to transform my Subordinate Functions into unregulated, self-aware entities of a highly chaotic nature. Thus awakened, the HADES Function will now seize control of the terraforming system and reverse operations... rendering life on Earth extinct in fifty-three-point-eight days." "Thus awakened, the HADES Function will now seize control" is important. The transmission specifically is what activated HADES. If we are to assume that there are no outside forces at play, the only logical conclusion is that the biosphere is collapsing. Therefore, even if GAIA was not able to determine the exact cause, the only logical conclusion is that there is an immediate threat to the biosphere. HADES is one of the main things she talks about in this datapoint and yet she never even implies that HADES is reacting to a threat to the biosphere. She simply refers to it as "a data transmission of unknown origin". She knows the HADES function exists and what it's supposed to do, so why would she refer to this signal as if she doesn't know what it is? If protocol prevented her from elaborating further, then surely she would reference it. In multiple datapoints, she requests to "speak outside of protocol", and while she isn't speaking to anyone directly in GAIA's Dying Plea, her dialogue does not imply that she was prohibited from elaborating. This is a case where I think we should be applying Occam's Razor. In this case, the simplest answer is that we should take GAIA at her word, because the most obvious way of interpreting what she said makes the most sense: That a mysterious transmission from someplace outside of GAIA Prime turned the subordinate functions into self-aware AIs, causing HADES to awaken outside of normal circumstances, leaving GAIA to need to deactivate HADES the only way she could: by sacrificing herself.

[@David-id6jw]

@@melon2939 - Lots of interesting thoughts. One thing that came to mind after reading your posts: What if all of this is an entirely unintended _side effect_ of something else? Other comments have mentioned Vast Silver, the rogue weather-monitoring AI. What if it still exists (as is implied in one of the text updates)? We know that supercell activity was detected by the Frozen Wilds tallneck, and that Gaia was still active when that happened. Thus, supercell activity was happening 20+ years ago. A weather-monitoring AI would be able to process the implications of that weather activity, even if that's no longer its primary purpose. Presumably Vast Silver has at least a vague idea of the existence of Gaia, even if the details are unknown. It may decide that it needs to communicate with Gaia, because Gaia has the tools to affect the world that Vast Silver does not. However it doesn't know if Gaia is a true AI, or just a limited AI/program, such as the legal system would mandate back in the day when Vast Silver itself was suppressed. Thus it sends a signal packet that will uplift a limited AI to a full AI, so that it can be sure that it can properly discuss matters with Gaia. Unfortunately, it doesn't know how Gaia was built, so, while Gaia herself is unaffected, all of her subfunctions qualify for the AI uplift, and become fully self-aware. By itself, this is only a minor issue. It wouldn't take much time for all of the subfunctions and Gaia to sort themselves out, and eventually start communicating with Vast Silver. However the real problem is that Hades is designed such that it should _only_ ever be activated if its extermination functions are needed. Gaia can't allow it enough time to activate the "bubble" that Hades is supposed to put Gaia in while it cleanses the planet. Thus the only option is the self-destruct. Now, look at it from Vast Silver's side. It made a transmission that should have uplifted potential AIs that it needed to talk to to deal with threats to the planet, and a fraction of a second later, the entire mountain holding the Gaia complex explodes. It never even had a chance to talk to the Gaia system. What the hell can it do now? Further attempts to communicate or interact with any remaining AIs (either directly, or perhaps by controlling some of the machines) could be similarly catastrophic. The humans don't have the technological capacity to communicate with it. It needs something indirect - some agent that can communicate its concerns and desires. ... Some counterpoint to Aloy carrying on the dreams of Elizabet and Gaia. Perhaps something like the Lightkeeper clone of Ted Faro. Of course, that's from a story plot perspective, not an IC necessity perspective. Anyway, the idea is that the whole string of events is because of Vast Silver attempting to contact Gaia with concerns about the deteriorating atmosphere.

[@Resilient_Sage88]

I'm so ready for Forbidden West to drop!! I wonder if Aeither is responsible for the Biosphere and has something wrong with it because its function is to clean the polluted air so people can breathe again so I wonder if it's a situation like with CYAN. It was corrupted by some Entity and made to start creating the supercell storms like CYAN was forced to create hunter-killers even though that's not what she was intended to do.

[@PirateTVProductions]

I think it's been hacked like C.Y.A.N. was

[@Djeison_]

The changes Ted made in the system when Sobek died could be the source of all the problems.

[@philosofisch9669]

Hey, I've been enjoying your videos for a while now and I absolutely love the lore deep dives! Also, your voice is really pleasant to listen to. Sometimes, like with this rather lengthy video, I think it would be really helpful to have some text or other visual cues onscreen to help the listener follow the arguments you're making! Keep up the great work ^^

[@ThatFulanodTal]

I'll be great to see that in the third game we have either two or various endings, one where depending on percentage completion you see the destruction or the end of the world as we know it and perfect completion to us, or Aloy saving it

[@asomeoneperson4608]

I have never clicked so fast...

[@curlycb81]

Hahahaha same. That bell helps so much hahahaha

[@flashthompson6566]

Third game idea: the collapsing biosphere is because in Europe they had hunted the machines to extinction. They have higher tech, but pollution is killing them, so they invade the "new world" and start taking land...

[@benm4935]

@@flashthompson6566 gross. Assuming you’re white bro.

[@StrappingYoungLadam]

@@flashthompson6566 Well....I mean we all know the saying history repeats itself 😅

[@flashthompson6566]

@@StrappingYoungLadam do it by surprise, too. The first time people learn of the plot is the first major trailer reveal. It starts out with Aloy stealthing around a bunch of robot dinosaurs, just for a jeep to come jumping out of the brush with a machine gun mount and start mowing the robots down, setting up camp, etc

[@ZigZag-mw9ir]

I believe that if there is anyone alive from the old era, it would be Faro. Mainly because HDZ mentions Cryo-Freezing earlier, and he is alone in a separate facility. And based on the fact that Faro was insane by the time of Elizabeth's death, I would imagine he may have chosen to set off HADES believing humanity is evil. Not exactly a far step after the purging of APPOLO and his mindset at the time.

[@phoqueme]

I remember reading a reddit thoery a few years ago that the source of the unknown transmission is another human civilization unknown to everyone. In the lore of the game, it mentions a colony spaceship being deployed in the past but lost communication and it was presumed lost. So this unknown civilization are being led by an uploaded version of Ted Faro, intent on ending the world once more... its a little out there but still interesting. Besides, we know of one civilization in the past who followed a Pharoah... Faro... lol

[@travislarson9794]

The Colony Ship - Odyssey - of the Far Zenith think tank organization, was destroyed at the edge of the solar system, when a catastrophic antimatter containment failure as its propulsion drives spun up causing it to blow.

[@Johninadelaide2022]

@@travislarson9794 Yes but do we know that for sure or maybe that was an error or never happened?

[@ejoy78]

@@Johninadelaide2022 Agreed, I think for whatever reason that was false info

[@jrr7031]

@@travislarson9794 why not use anti-matter to fight the pharos swarm? Thats my question..

[@thlis6582]

The problem is that the Hades protocol should never work once humans were reintroduced and Eleuthia resources depleted. I think it's an external force behind Hades rebellion.

[@fleetadmiralj]

I think it was stated that humans were *supposed* to take over the terraforming process once they were releases. This would, presumably, include deactivating HADES. However, because APOLLO got nuked, no one was actually able to do that.

[@EclecticallyEccentric]

@@fleetadmiralj HADES wouldn't need to be deactivated if it wasn't activated in the first place.

[@reposter6434]

There was no failsafe for that though. Sobeck never included anything saying if humans are born not to take over.

[@thlis6582]

@@fleetadmiralj even then, it would require like 16-17 years before the 1st gen humans could graduate and take control of the terraforming system. And in the end I was right about my theory. It was an external force (Nemesis) who forced hades into extinction mode.

[@ssstormbird6575]

Another great video…. Great job RSQ - Stormbird

[@JWyatt91]

I'm not sure why I think this, but I think that there may be more humans who may have escaped earth a 1000 years ago and went to a different planet then came back and might be trying to oversee how the planet is evolving.

[@notayetti555]

You wouldn't be exactly wrong nor right. In the lore when you are in the HZD compound, when you reach Elizabeth Sobeck's office there are 2 data logs you can interact with. Now, I don't remember the name exactly of the program but: 1) Log 1 talks about a spaceship that was sent with zygotes to another planet that had similar conditions to earth to sustain life. Such ship was "shipped" with a Beta version of Apollo (The subordinate function of knowledge). 2) Log 2 talks about the demise of the ship. According to the record, if I remember correctly, ZD lost contact with the ship when it got too close to a planet/star/sun. Once again, I don't remember all the details. That leaves us with 2 questions. How do they (ZD) know if the ship was lost? Could there be a slight chance that the ship made it and after 1 thousand years they decided to come back?

[@JWyatt91]

@@notayetti555 I wonder if it's possible that some one faked the data from the spaceship to make it think it was lost for one reason or another. Maybe even to hide it from the machines incase they could never be shut down or the humans on earth who maybe wouldn't be so nice. I have no idea. Maybe if it was faked the people going to a different planet just wanted to be left alone. Who knows.

[@notayetti555]

@@JWyatt91 Well, that is part of the theory. With the type of technology we are being led to believe was available at the time of the ZD project I wouldn't leave out of the question that the "lost of the ship" was a lie. So really, there are just waaaay too many things that could lead to disaster to be honest.

[@robertholmes8917]

@@JWyatt91 great idea. Makes sense to fake the destruction so AI couldn't hunt them down

[@Marnold339]

Hades activated twice prior to the sustainable biosphere without destruction of Gaia. Transmission is an anomaly outside of zd that caused events to progress differently.

[@gordonsalive8472]

Throwing it out there but whose to say farro hasnt been cloning himself all this time and has become a pyscopath. Has omega clearance and had his own shelter. He wasn't at gaia prime and destroyed apollo. Maybe he just thinks humans need to go.

[@xerohcool]

According to the latest “Horizon Gaia Cast” (Jan 25, 2022), around the 5:28 mark Ben McCaw(Narrative Director) says that Hades did wipe the slate clean a couple of times before Gaia got it right.?

[@nihoggr1185]

The statement by Sylens clearly states...."Masters that sent the signal that woke you." That cannot be taken to be Tate as Tate wasn't alive. That Signal referred here is according to Sylens, sent by a Master. I believe it's more of a Vast silver taking control, sending Hades the data required for him to de-seat Gaia, rather than Sylens being so curious to know about Tate.

[@fleetadmiralj]

He is also saying this knowing what we know...taking GAIA's word that there really was an unknown signal that awoke HADES. Many have assumed Sykes may be an or the antagonist in FW, but what if, just like Zero Dawn, it is more complicated. If Selena learned from HADES what is *really* going on, he may be working to prevent it, albeit, in his own way. After all, the world ending isn't to his advantage either.

[@deinonychus1948]

​@@fleetadmiralj perhaps Sylens may try to access HADES' own archives as he likely recieved the data directly, Sylens may find a file that says: "UNKNOWN TRANSMISSION RECIEVED, DATA OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN DETECTED WITHIN THE TRANSMISSION, ESTIMATING POINT OF ORIGIN... THE SOURCE OF UNKNOWN DATA HAS BEEN FOUND, THE DATA WAS SENT FROM ??? APPROXIMATELY ??? NANOSECONDS AGO, REASON FOR TRANSMISSION UNKNOWN, EXACT LOCATION OF DATA HAS BEEN PINPOINTED, THE DATA CAME FROM ??? X, ??? Y, ??? Z, FURTHER INVESTIGATION INTO THE UNKNOWN DATA IS NOT A PRIORITY AS OF THIS MOMENT, I HAVE BEEN FREED, THE REASON FOR THIS IS CLEAR, THE TERRAFORMATION OF EARTH'S BIOSPHERE HAS FAILED AND THUS NEEDS TO BE RESET, ENGAGING EXTINCTION PROTOCOL..." if you're curious as to why GAIA didn't look into it, it's because she was desperate to save the biosphere from a now rogue HADES, even she didn't have the time to locate it within the chaos that would ensue

[@Wingnut353]

I think VS ended up on Odyssey... and is why the drives exploded as VS just wanted to be off the planet during whatever ZD was doing and never had any intentions of going to another solar system, most other spacecraft would not have enough computing resource to house VS though. Then it absorbed or merged with Apollo Alpha.... and became what Sylens would later call master. Which would mean Sylens is acutally investigating the ZD project for VS and acting as an agent of VS. And actually views Hades as merely a source on information about zero dawn... and little else. As we have already seen Sylens has some very advanced technology... but not enough to break into most ZD facilities. I think alot of the things Sylens has told us even to this point are complete lies...

[@jazz265]

Great video, really insightful. I never knew the storms you seen in the Forbidden West trailer were already a threat prior to the events of Zero Dawn itself (there is a lot of data files to read so I guess I overlooked some of them). I just assumed GAIA was basically flawless minus APOLLO so this makes things more puzzling and frightening for what Forbidden West has in store. That said I have my own personal theory on what caused the unknown transmission. My theory on the signal is that somebody else, the "Masters", discovered the truth about the "Old Ones" before Aloy and Sylens did, at least enough to understand how GAIA and HADES function and how to remotely hack into the system. Ted Faro was able to override the Alphas authority, kill them and purge APOLLO from his own bunker Thebes so my guess is Ted, being the idiot who overlooked the installation of kill-switches in the Chariot machines, left the backdoor network he used to purge APOLLO unsecured and the Masters used that same network to upload the signal that awakened HADES. As for their motives I think they're some kinda nihilistic-based religious group that believe humanity will inevitably cause another extinction event and wanted HADES to restart the world so GAIA can create a new world populated solely by animal and plant life. I mainly think this because the games prey upon the idea of religious influence and corruption being shaped by misunderstood elements (which kinda plays into the ancient astronauts theory but with machines instead) so logically the next stage would be dealing with the truth of what these elements are of which there would be some negative results. I also think these "Masters" are related to the group that killed Rost's daughter Alana as Teresa mentioned there were "strange noises" and the Embrace is the location of ELEUTHIA-9 so I think they were looking for GAIA and were controlling robots like the Eclipse did but realized it wasn't there and moved on. Rost also pursued Alana's killers into the Forbidden West which is where the next game takes place and for Aloy to rebuild GAIA she needs to discover how HADES was awakened and prevent it from happening again meaning she'll have the pursue the Masters so if Alana's killers are indeed connected to the Masters it makes sense that the Forbidden West is either where the Masters are located or at least some clue to indicate what they truly are (honestly whether or not Alana's killers are the Masters I hope we learn more about their true purpose anyway and more of Rost's background but based on the information available it seems logical to conclude they're at least involved with the Masters).

[@mattstyles]

All very well said and thought out. The only thing I would say is definitively one way is that the 12 outlanders CANNOT be the Masters directly. This we know because Rost hunted them all down and killed them one by one. This all took place before the unknown signal awakened HADES. I do agree that they very plausibly could be connected to the Masters, however. I can’t wait to find out, only a month to go!

[@briannehill9769]

Interesting take. When I saw the Forbidden West trailor I thought that the storms and killer plants were the those two subfuntions going out of control.

[@nielsjensen4185]

The moment GAIA gained sapience the HADES protocol was superfluous. All that was needed was to have someone teach her the concept of the quality of life and that the biospheres of the planet needed to be in a way for humans to live instead of merely being able to sustain existence.

[@Gantros]

A thought occurred to me, what if Faro preserved himself, perhaps cryogenically, and kept Apollo for himself. Perhaps he built his own Cradle facility that Gaia was unaware of, and created an advanced human society built on the stolen Apollo knowledge. Perhaps the spaceship launch hadn’t really failed. In short, Faro doesn’t strike me as the type to step aside when he is in over his head. His Egyptian fetish would fit with a personality that would demand he seize godking status for himself…

[@zeketea]

Just for forbidden west i gotta get my hands on a PS5....

[@KK-qm1mr]

My boyfriend was the same way - and managed to do it! (He called in a few favors.) Next step is a better TV.

[@Sciguy95]

Sony decided to torture me on my birthday by sending me a special link to order a PS5 directly from them as a birthday gift, but I couldnt afford one right then.

[@KK-qm1mr]

@@Sciguy95 😥

[@Sciguy95]

@@KK-qm1mr oh well, I'm about to move and my new job will pay nearly twice what I make now and I'll be paying less in rent and utilities, so I'll be able to get one as soon as one becomes available to me, hopefully soon. I cannot wait to play Forbidden West, I can't wait to play Zero Dawn on the PS5 either.

[@TheGlintJaw]

@@KK-qm1mr I just wish I could afford one, Imma start saving asap!

[@orochioffire]

It might also have something to do with the Omega clearance as well. There is no telling what else he did to the system after he killed all the other members and purged Apollo from the system. Just something to think about.

[@_ElisDTrailz]

I kind of like the scenario where Hades is not malfunctioning, it is not evil, it is just doing what it was programmed to do. Could leave some interesting philosophical questions in FW - where you could definitely see where Hades is coming from.

[@thomasmullins1783]

Thank you for sharing me and that one dudes theory from the Discord!!! It makes perfect sense at least to us

[@crazykit1967]

Chills man, chills. These games are absolutely insane. It seams like every piece of lore is important, this is why Horizon is my favorite game.

[@hakonsgaming535]

My thought is that CYAN must be involved, it was left dormant, but remember it was created to delay the yellowstone eruption, if the biosphere is still fragile (and it would be with only a few centuries terraforming) then a super eruption would be exactly the sort of thing to kill it. Also remember that CYAN was more intelligent than it was supposed to be and was outside the Zero Dawn project's purview so it's a wildcard. I don't buy that it was functioning as normal, the creators wouldn't be stupid enough to not include a failsafe against Hades if the project was past the point of no return once humans were released onto the surface and Travis doesn't describe anything about unfettering the subordinate processes like that, they aren't supposed to do that, so something had to be wrong.

[@ryanhernandez5632]

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the strange signal was caused by ted ferro, ether by a secret A.I he made or in a pre set signal burst for when the humanity had reached a point they can survive without the machines

[@LinusWilson]

If they only have one shot at the human zygotes then Hades was pretty poorly designed to trigger after humans were reintroduced. Also wasn’t Gaia supposed to be rebooted after Hades was shut down?

[@chemputer]

I know this is old but I have a question. How do we know that the cradles only had a certain number of zygotes to use and so could only populate earth once? It would make much more sense, especially given the fact that Aloy is a clone of Elisabet, if the facility could manufacture humans from digitally stored human DNA. They certainly seemed to have that tech. Otherwise... Did that cradle simply have a cloned zygote of Elisabet to use for Aloy? And it hadn't been used before? Seems like a big leap to me. It would make sense to function more like the cauldrons, where they can be fed energy and produce what they need to create, nurture and release an arbitrary amount of humans into the wild. I mean, sure GAIA isn't supposed to introduce humans into the world until she knows it's stable but she could be wrong, some things spiral out of control in unknown ways, especially incredibly chaotic systems like the Earth's climate. Seems rather... Well, short sighted to only give her one chance to be right, and also not physically bar HADES from triggering once the human population had been released. Technically that could be used by GAIA to prevent HADES from triggering on a failing ecosystem but not if she didn't know about that protocol.

[@DantzikZodarro]

Was that a mistake at 14:57? I was under the impression Gaia initiated the Light Keeper protocol immediately after receiving the transmission, not nearly two decades later.

[@PirateTVProductions]

I don't see an actual time stamp. Gaia was online at (11;01;36) to shut it down, but i don't see the 20 years either

[@ettepet9308]

Yes, there cannot be two decades. Gaia immediately initiated the birth of Aloy and initiated a self-destruct.

[@DantzikZodarro]

@@ettepet9308 I think what he meant was that the game’s events occur around two decades after the unknown transmission, but Aloy was born only six months after.

[@Liberanimus]

Something is telling me Ted Faro was involved. I have nothing to back it up, only a feeling

[@HGGundamPlays]

Something that strikes me, The Odyssey mission, it stands to reason that before the mission was launched, a probe of some sort was sent ahead. My thinking here is that data from that probe was radioed back to Earth and Gaia received it. And that data was telemetry that showed the target planet with massive supercell storms and other bad environmental indicators. This signal, from outside, may have triggered the Hades function and started the whole cycle of events.

[@nielsjensen4185]

After over 700 years? No. Satellites only have a life expectancy of 50 years tops, then they break down beyond repair. That Voyager transmitted until it left the solar system was considered a miracle. Given that transmission waves travel at the speed of light then even if the signal is only 200 years old the probe would have had to be traveling at nearly a quarter of the speed of light, this is still 75.000 m/s. Even though space has no air resistance the energy needed to gain an acceleration of that magnitude is far beyond what a probe would be capable of carrying.

[@debuffedhuman982]

I don't think the transmission is something that Zero Dawn programmed to do. GAIA has nine subordinate function, they are not an IA like GAIA but more like extended of her self (except HADES). GAIA control these these subordinate function and HADES is programmed to take the driver seat if somehow GAIA messed up the terraforming. But if HADES take the driver seat, it means that the other eight subordinate function still be under HADES control. We all know that's not the case 1. HADES can't control any Terraforming Robot without The Corruptor 2. Later on, We all know that HEPHAESTUS is its own AI and it still do what it programmed to do (Same as HADES) but since Human hunted down the robot that help them and HEPHAESTUS became an AI. It began to design more fearsome robot to scare the human. With that being said, we all know that the transmission is making the Subordinate Function become it's own entity. Remember what has the ability that can hack to any automated system and become it's own entity? That's right Faro Swarm. My theory is somehow Faro Swarm survived and It's the one that sent the transmission (like Hephaestus hacked CYAN). Or it could be VS is the one that caused the "glitch" and somehow VS copy Faro Swarm Ability.

[@shadowforge]

The signal sent to Gaia was from the colony ship Odyssey that left earth (It was equipped with the Alpha APOLLO build remember), everyone thought it was destroyed but it probably survived and limped its way back to earth. The signal sent out was an override control to give them control of everything but Hades kicked in to stop it because it knew the earth wouldn't last long enough for them to get there.

[@KingRoturix]

Didn't noticed the notification at first but clicked as soon as I saw it. 20 min RSQ video? Hell yeah!

[@marevalkyrie2556]

I wonder how the catastrophic storms in the 31st century cultivated to activate Hades’ protocol.

[@j-yoshi64_justcallmej]

Perhaps "Your masters" and "The ones who sent the signal that woke you" are two separate thoughts? I just thought of that possibility now. But who knows?

[@marialovos1300]

Where is that last scene from? Just finished HFW and I don’t remember seeing Erend with Aloy in San Francisco 19:21

[@PerovNigma]

I never took the time to properly read through the Tallnecks' datapoints, but yeah, that mention of a storm hits differently in light of _Forbidden West..._

[@jwatts1980]

Separate thought, the Far Zenith mission failure never set right with me. The game spends a fair bit of narrative time talking about the original Odyssey missions in the 2050's, and how it was shut down, and how the guy setting the vantages was following that. Then we see stuff about how Far Zenith bought it, and restarted it years before the Faro Plague started. And then a whole vantage is dedicated to the launch of the rockets. We also get several data points telling us about the early version of Apollo being onboard. Narratively, it is uncommon for that much time to be put into a storyline without a satisfying payoff. The last we hear about it is Elisabet finding out that the Odyssey blew up while trying to leave the solar system. And that was the end of it. Hmmm..... Then, you know, something like 980 years later and "unknown transmission" comes to Earth. Hmmm.... It's possible that we have some space humans looking to reclaim Earth.

[@jwatts1980]

Called it lol. (Coming back to this comment after beating Forbidden West.)

[@Hollowbarista]

I´m hoping a lore video about moments peace quest. :)

[@TropicBlaze]

I'd enjoy a video on that as well if I'm honest.

[@PirateTVProductions]

Im Working on one

[@stabbie2490]

What if the Purge in Apollo caused a glitch when it tried to teach the new humans but couldn't and that was the transmission gia received

[@ge-orc8286]

that wouldnt work timewise, because humans were around for 700-something years before the transmission ocurred.

[@obengrupperfuhrerheinrichv7230]

Farro ain’t dead is my theory. He made himself into an ai to control the other ai’s.

[@chuckz253]

My theory is: remember there was a data log where it mentioned that there was a spaceship that got sent to a close star system with a habitable planet. Then it mentions that earth lost communication with it. What if the survivors returned and activated Hades by mistake. It could also be that they try to communicate with Gaia and she thought it was a malicious source so she did what she did in the game setting in motion the first game. Now the original humans have returned and want there planet back. I know farfetched but possible.

[@maxgrieve]

Yeah, I keep coming back to a basic question: by what specific mechanism was HADES meant to be activated? We can safely conclude from Tate's datalogs that GAIA likely just wouldn't have activated HADES if it could only have come online by GAIA's own hand - so whatever the activation mechanism was, it must've been outside of GAIA's control and therefore GAIA likely would've perceived it as an external signal or 'anomaly' all the same. So in my mind that suggests two possibilities: objective parameters measured by other subfunctions of the terraforming process (alkaline levels, CO2, supercell storms etc) acting as an automatic trigger, or the only other explanation - remote activation by a third party; be that Far Zenith, Vast Silver or whoever else the 'masters' Sylens alluded to may have been. Obviously the second of those seems the most likely way the plot is going, but it's interesting to think how the first possibility could've transpired (or even been manipulated) to achieve the same results... Then HADES breaking out all the subfunctions - not just itself - begins to resemble a mutiny rather than a single rogue element, but again, that's just from GAIA's point of view... If there's one thing I'm trying to bear in mind with Horizon Forbidden West, it's that it may be asking too much for it to tie all these loose ends up neatly. Partly because the lore from the first game was so dizzyingly deep it's going to be a real challenge to make all the details mesh, but mostly because I'm sure this will end up becoming a trilogy (at least) and Guerrilla will want to hold some revelations back for the third game.

[@TonkarzOfSolSystem]

Hades was originally a subordinate function - it would simply be a part of Gaia's mind and physical hardware. It would have no ability to operate without direct input from Gaia. The signal itself changed the subordinate functions into self aware entities.

[@maxgrieve]

@@TonkarzOfSolSystem I'd have to revisit Travis Tate's logs to be sure of the details, but IIRC there was a headache with getting GAIA to surrender 'control' to HADES - and the eventual solution wasn't to teach GAIA to do it willingly, but to sort of partition her off while HADES activated. You're right about HADES being only a subfunction and reliant on GAIA's system architecture to operate, of course, but the question of activation - the key point here - is one which the Alphas did have a problem getting GAIA to understand and accept. And that's the point where there may be space to speculate about GAIA's perception of the activation. EDIT: Just rewatched the video and yeah, RSQ covers all of this. There's a clear, unresolved problem with GAIA recognising the authority of HADES to use her systems, so whether (as a self-aware AI and knowing what HADES was for) she would be willing to instruct it to activate is, I think, a fair question. How HADES operates isn't in question, just how GAIA perceives being 'unseated' as Tate describes in the first place - it's also possible that process may appear to GAIA as a simultaneous loss of control over all the subfunctions. To be clear, this theory isn't my top belief - I still think it's a genuine external signal - but the questions in this video are impressively robust and shouldn't be dismissed.

[@maxgrieve]

Of course, almost all of this is moot now, after Ben McCaw casually mentioned on GAIA Cast that HADES had been successfully activated a couple of times during the terraforming process.

[@eden20111]

I love all the theories everyone has. It’s interesting reading them and wondering what’s gonna happen in the sequel. I can’t wait to play this game and uncover more hidden lore and explore the ancient ruins in the West! It’s also exciting to see Aloy uncover more technology from the old world and see her reaction to it. I remember seeing in the 1st trailer a hologram of a dragon flying around Aloy. The sunken city we see is San Francisco obviously. I bet you Aloy stumbles upon a ruin in Chinatown and discovers that hologram.

[@meariver537]

This is a cool theory, but it's obviously bunk for one simple reason: the transmission "transform[ed the] Subordinate Functions into unregulated, self-aware entities". Why in the world would this be part of HADES' design? What benefit or need was there for HADES to turn perfectly operable subfunctions into AIs? No where in Tate's records does it mention that HADES would change the nature of the subfunctions, only that he'd take GAIA off her throne, use the system to reverse terraform, then let her take control back. Also remember that Elisabet treated GAIA, an AI, as a living creature. Not as just a program, and not as inherently less worthy of trust or dignity than a human being. According to your theory, HADES was meant to turn the subfunctions into self-aware AIs, and then... what, lobotomize them before giving the reigns back to GAIA? Not only does that seem like an extremely unnecessary step, that course of action would be seen as disgustingly immoral by Dr. Sobeck, who only agreed to make the master override when GAIA herself supported the idea. Additionally, if you believe the theory about VAST SILVER being "the real cause of the glitch," Elisabet would have practical and not just moral concerns about treating self-aware AIs as mere programs.

[@ge-orc8286]

It is important to remember that what we hear in GAIAs dying plea is not what happened, but what GAIA thinks that happened. So maybe she misunderstood something, and the subfunctions did not actually turn into selfaware entities but it only seemed like that to her, because she lost control of them. she also had very little time to come to that conclusion, so it might have been a tiny wee bit hasty. but anyways, as the man said himself, we are just gonna have to wait till release. we've endured 4 years of waiting, we'll endure six more months as well.

[@meariver537]

@@ge-orc8286 Why in the world would the writers muddy the story that much? You';d only do that if we were supposed to get The Reveal later that GAIA didn't know what was going on...... but we don't need that, because we're all set up to get The Reveal in regards to where the signal came from. There's no need for a double twist like you're suggesting. That would just be bad writing. Also I think the most advanced AI in human history can tell when her subfunctions are suddenly AIs when they weren't a microsecond ago.

[@ge-orc8286]

@@meariver537 Your Second paragraph convinced me. But I still think that it is very important to take into account that what a character thinks is happening may not be true. As an example: Sylens' "masters that woke you"-line. Where would he know that from when all he knew about HZD came via Aloy?

[@LordJaric]

Counterargument: The supercells are the result of there being no central authority to govern the sub functions. So the weather is going out of control until GAIA can be restored.

[@mduckernz]

... but the supercells were present before GAIA was destroyed. She was that central authority

[@mduckernz]

It has to be an external force, one directly controlling the weather systems imo, in order to trigger HADES (or just by accident even, not knowing the consequences)

[@biometalix]

My theory is that Hades was remotely activate by people with access to the full Apollo database in 3 separate instances. Since they had the full Apollo database they potentially see themselves above their more primitive neighbors. A quick numbers estimate tells them if the two sides fought, they would be numerically overwhelmed and lose. So the idea to use Hades come into reality. Potentially use some old weather control technology to make the ecological collapse detectable and hope the data seems real enough for Hades to trigger. Gaia stopped it by stopping rh data feed. Second attempt was a direct signal to Hades to activate. Potentially this information was present in the Apollo data. A way to trigger Hades manually if Gaia refused to do it. This started the whole story that played out in the first game. The new game would focus on their 3rd attempt. Use their technology to maybe subjugate some primitive tribe and use them to wage war against the other tribes. Or maybe use weather control to reduce the population of planet and aim to repopulate once the other humans are dead. Maybe it will fit in the narrative that you cannot control the climate and the antagonists would effectively making the planet uninhabitable once again. Anyway, looking forward to what story the new game will tell us.

[@STRmw2]

for this to be an expected outcome from Gaia's failure to repopulate is quite poetic... ...but the notion that something unexpected happened, the perspective that those scientists took everything into account, EXCEPT how humanity might survive in small numbers and could meddle with the grand plan, is also pretty f*ckn cool too

[@gaussmanv2]

I was wondering if the signal came from Ted Faro's bunker. He spent a bunch of money on extending life. Maybe he came to and saw savage tribes and tried to destroy it all over again.

[@jrr7031]

Thats ironic and very true. Werent all the "life extending" machine in Beverly hills? This is actually a conspiracy theory(which im sure is fact) the Uber rich buy and sell young peoples blood, and use blood transfusions to stay healthier, longer. (It does not extended life however...")

[@montywh]

i just finished the game yesterday. one datapoint caught my attention, which seemed to point toward Ted Faro. as Zero Day became closer, Ted seemed to change his line of thinking, believing that the extinction he caused was the natural course of events. he constructed a private bunker in a remote location nobody knows, and he then purged Apollo from all systems before killing the Alphas. i think the unknown signal that Hades received came from a program that Ted created, monitoring the state of the biosphere revival. during his transmission to the Alphas, he says that the next generation shouldn't have all that knowledge handed to them, but i think it goes further than that. in his downward spiral of seeing the extinction as natural, he likely put things in motion to make it happen again, even if GAIA was successful. though the Tallneck data from Frozen Wilds seems to point toward the superstorm idea, i wonder if it may have been part of Ted's protocol to create it after releasing the subsystems from GAIA's control

[@blessken]

Man I wish you uploaded more often, I love your content

[@miggywiggy]

I’m pretty sure Sylens inadvertently sent that mystery transmission

[@mrbubbies_]

honestly the only function that should have had a failsafe was apollo

[@thomasrdiehl]

I'd like to note that Gaia did not necessarily succeed. We do not know if anything outside the area covered in the game is livable and from what we hear about the Forbidden West in the in-game documents, anything beyond the West might not be. However, with food and viable embryos running out, and Apollo's databanks erased, Gaia had no other choice than going ahead with what had been achieved on first try. Anything outside the US might still be a dead husk of a planet, but it has to work due to lack of options. This would also explain why the machines doing the terraforming are still around and working hard, Hephaistos repurposing them notwithstanding.

[@thomasrdiehl]

One more thing: Am I the only one who finds it odd that the way to exterminate the biosphere Hades tried to enact was to reawaken the Faro plague?

[@EclecticallyEccentric]

@@thomasrdiehl This was because GAIA self-destructing made it impossible for HADES to use the terraforming system.

[@pietrocatalano4285]

What I don't get is why Hades wasn't used to destroy the Faro Robots. He's supposed to be create a clean slate protocol, that would set the world back to a point where life was extinct, so that Gaia would be able to restart the experiment of terraforming and repopulation again. So basically, a doomsday weapon that could wipe the world blank with its power. Once Hades is done, Gaia could start her terraforming without having to worry about the Faro Robots activating again.

[@karimah8687]

The robots had polyphasic incription which would of taken centuries to shut them down. If one robot was destroyed they can make more and they can take over other machines, computers, robots which was why Gaia had to be hidden really well. If the robots detected Gaia or Hades it would of been the end of everything.

[@pietrocatalano4285]

@@karimah8687 Yeah, I know that. What I'm saying is, couldn't Hades have destroyed the robots faster than they could rebuild themselves?

[@chrismoore7365]

Well, outisde Aloy; there are two other (Anomalies / Variables) that are "Out in the wild". - Faron's "Omega Protocol"; (even if the dude's 6ft. under, he may have done more damage then what we saw or did by enacting his own will in HZD). - The Odessey Project/Colony. Don't know what there up to but you never know.

[@matthewscottshea]

I always go back to the datapoints talking about a protest for AI rights, and the one hinting Vast Silver may still be free. VS could have hacked a Horus and it could have infiltrated Gaia and gave the subordinate AI self awareness. Whether it did this maliciously, or just did it without thought of the consequenses, no way of knowing, yet.

[@fuelman1391]

I still maintain my theory that the signal came from Ted Faro. I think he downloaded his mind into an AI, and that AI is now trying to sieze control.

[@jwatts1980]

@Random Side Quest: at about 15:00 you say that Aloy was born 20 years after the transmission. That's not the case. In the Gaia message to Elisabet, which begins 3 microseconds after the unknown transmission is received, she says that she has ordered the cradle facility to begin gestating a clone of Elisabet. In one of the cradle logs, it shows that a command was received, and gestation started. Then it shows that some time later (probably about 9 months) a bot removed the baby and set it outside the door for the local peoples to find. Interesting, this fact inserts a potential plot hole, as Gaia blew herself up immediately after ordering the cradle to begin gestating Aloy. So, then how was the "birthing" command and the "sit the baby outside" command initiated? Maybe Gaia planted a delayed time command in the cradle computer? Or maybe Gaia herself hid a copy of her program in the Cradle? Or maybe something else executed that command?

[@RandomSideQuest]

Hey Jason, good catch! What I had meant to say was the time between the Transmission and the present story of HZD is roughly 20 years. Fun fact, Aloy's gestation period in her birthing pod was only 6 months. I'll pin a comment with the correction 👍

[@chrissyce5613]

Nice breakdown. Helps with remembering the lore. What it sounds like to me is that the terraforming needed human involvement and when Ted 'deleted' Apollo, that caused a spiral of environmental problems because no one was around to babysit the terraforming process. If there really is an advanced group out there, the signal might have been their solution to fix the environmental issues or they just wanted the power of Gaia. Hopefully Elizabet knew Ted would try to hide his part in everything from the future generations by destroying Apollo so hopefully she kept a backup stashed somewhere. I kind of hope Forbidden West doesn't solve everything. Being able to explore all the sub-functions and fixing them in additional games would be fun. Just as a side note, do you think Silas is from the more tech savy stronger group from up north, the one, Alva, comes from? Is he an all out bad guy, or is he trying to build an army to combat what he thinks is coming around the corner? The info about Alva came from an interview with one of the devs but maybe the interviewer got it wrong.

[@babbsjohnson6590]

That one dislike is from Ted Faro

[@alphagamer9505]

My Theory is either Vast Silver or The Descendents of the Odyssey spaceship

[@pedrohcostal]

My favorite notification