Hornby Class 43 HST and Class 800 Price to Value Assessment - What should you be paying?

This video goes through the creation of a value assessment model for the Hornby Class 43 HST and Class 800 models in order to help determine what price range for these models represents good value or bad value as the case may be.
If you are familiar with my reviews on the channel, you'll know that I include a value score as part of my overall ratings. This score attempts to capture the value of a model at it's typical selling price, based on the capabilities and quality it is delivering, and relative to what is available from it's closest competition.
With Hornby increasing prices twice in the last 6 months I felt it appropriate to re-appraise the value rating of two models I have been reviewing during this time, the LNER Class 800 Azuma and the FGW Class 43 HST, to see exactly where they sit on the value spectrum right now, and what sort of price they should be selling for in order to be considered good value.
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Model Railway Pricing Review 2011 to 2021 - A look at model price increases over the last 10 years: • Model Railway Pricing ...

[@russellbenton2987]

The HST is Hornbys cash cow . If you want an HST it has to be Hornby and they know it , that’s why it’s the price it is . Simon Kohler referred to possible competition in the latest Hornby PR program . I really hope that competition emerges , because only then will you get value . On the Accurascale Mk5 remember the price was set 3 years ago . To Accurascales credit they are holding the price but probably if designed now would cost more . That said it does look like Hornby are getting away with murder . With the 800 wouldn’t a competitor need a licence from Hitachi , which is why there may not be a competitor ? Again very intelligently put together video . Well done for drawing attention to this . Price is a taboo subject in magazines and some model railway forums

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Russell. Hornby have made price an issue themselves. I can understand that those who rely on their relationship with Hornby are constrained in what they can say which is why an independent view is required.

[@dafyddthomas7299]

excellent insight and excellent video from the op

[@phil36310]

Thanks for analyzing these items price to value. Shocking how Hornby blackmails its customers with rather mediocre products compared to the standards like AccuraScale applies. I call it greediness and scrapped ALL further buys from Hornby. They shoot themselves in the feet. I have the upcoming AccuraScale GWR Manor on top of my wish list. All in all a very sad that Hornby is taking this road !!! Thanks for sharing, Cheers.

[@dafyddthomas7299]

agree - accuscale class 37's and 92's seem good value and hopefully top notch models.

[@sgkingly8392]

100% agree with your assessment in this video. You have been perfectly fair on Hornby in your tables and calculations

[@petertate5741]

The tables provide a very fair assessment in my book.Hornby models are way overpriced providing little in the way of extra features. Many of their models are poorly made coming to market with too many faults.Another manufacturer should pick up the baton regarding the HST and show Hornby how its done.👍

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Peter.

[@jamesmorgan3623]

Can another manufacturer make HSTs? Or do Hornby have an exclusive license (from AAB assumedly)?

[@petertate5741]

@@jamesmorgan3623 I'm not sure how it stands regarding another manufacturer recreating the hst.I would have assumed that any restrictions on copyright would have been lifted by now as Hornby has made them since 77? My main gripe with Hornby is the huge increases in price with no significant rise in quality

[@dafyddthomas7299]

@@petertate5741 good q - although others like are re'creating class 37's, 92's that Hornby have done as example and in terms of looks will resemble the hornby versions, makes sense that accuscale as example could recreate a HST from a real HST example standing in heritage centre, or getting rights / permission from operator / lease company that operate Scot rail hST.

[@davidclough7346]

Having spent 40 years in Procurement I'm really impressed with the way you have gone about benchmarking these models - top job! I've always wanted an HST and last year after obtaining an older non running 2 coach + power /dummy car set from a second hand shop, fitting a CD motor conversion and buying 4 more coaches off E Bay I now have a 6 coach HST for around £80. It doesn't need transmission through both bogies nor all wheel pick up - runs beautifully. So the price of the new versions by comparison really isn't worth the money in my opinion, although I accept the level of detail and finish is considerably improved.

[@EuviRail]

Thanks David and well done on your DIY job. I love to see that.

[@niallmurphy5303]

Same here, only last week I bought a 4 piece HST set (1995)swallow livery. Must upgrade and sound fit, but a lot cheaper than the new stuff

[@dafyddthomas7299]

spot on video - had also enough of hornby and its high price tag and in more cases more Q&A issues & faults - example being MK 3 Intercity DVT. Also they are jacking up prices across the board so much across the board; corgi, airfix and Scalextrics - where for example each plastic slot car is well over £50. On promising note- accuscale class 37's and 92's seem good value and hopefully top notch models - hopefully they can keep prices stable with little increases going forward this year

[@McMetro]

Your tables and breakdown is a very fair assessment, I hope you can do more of these with different models in the future.

[@Kev5565]

Good work, a very fair and thorough evaluation. Come on Accurascale show them how to make a HST and non sliding door coaches, you'll have my custom.

[@george_kennedy]

Thanks for taking the time to explain the rationale behind your analysis. It is refreshing to see a logical approach to a pricing review for a change. There will be some people who might dispute your comparisons but you’ve provided a baseline that can be tweaked one way or the other . Regardless of whether one is a Hornby fanboy or their harshest critic, one would find it difficult to say that your valuations are miles out. Well done and thanks again.

[@JJthrashing]

I would like to see Dapol make Class 43 they seem to have the right balance on pricing their models and the quality is great 👍

[@dafyddthomas7299]

fingers cross - their class 68's model is superb

[@harrytodhunter5078]

I just bought a “Celebrating Scotland” LNER 800 5-car pack on Ebay today for £305. The most expensive single purchase I have made in regards to model railways but definitely worth it in my eyes.

[@EuviRail]

That's a very good price for this model and if you are into sound, the Hornby TXS decoders support the Class 800 now so no need shell out on an expensive ESU offering.

[@timothymorris814]

Excellent comparison and very fair as just exposes Hornby being over priced when compared to other (not even released) better value and quality models. At 500£ at min you do not expect light bleed and poor pantograph fittings at that level when Bachmann have auto pantographs etc on some models with DCC fitted and sound at a fraction of the cost. Its shocking and as you say we the buyers and other competitors should be forcing them to think again. I generally always try and avoid them. Hope you are well and stay safe and thanks as always. Tim

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Tim

[@clipperrail8988]

There’s a lot of excuses being made for current pricing, so your assessment is a long overdue evaluation. It’s easy to get swept up in the hype of ‘missing out’ and pay big prices for an unseen pre-order, but I reluctantly stopped buying Hornby 18 months ago due to consistently poor quality and appalling customer service. The issues with the A2 and W1 have confirmed I’m not missing out. Price is subjective and we’re probably all guilty of paying too much for something special, but I now buy very little. Interesting you use the Dapol 68 as a yardstick, an astonishingly good model for £130 and reminder that £200 for a class 47 really is a crazy price. Good work and all the best, Colin

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Colin. Yeah, Dapol's Class 68 is a good example of value - an excellent model at a very acceptable price. We need more like this.

[@dafyddthomas7299]

superb model and good price by Dapol

[@francismewton3276]

Picked up a class 43 Barbie blue off eBay DCC ready £255 ,and it's fantastic. The cheapest I've seen so I bought it so happy

[@EuviRail]

Excellent.

[@johnstephens649]

An interesting and very fair way of comparing models. Shows what everybody knows that Hornby are both trying to control the market through how they will or will not work with retailers as well as forcing pricing. Competition is fair but not when others facing the same challenges (e.g. shipping costs) but not the same level of increases that Hornby claim as justified. Add this to their antics with retailers, not a good look from Hornby!

[@dafyddthomas7299]

agree - certainly some may say could go through the same way as Us pan am, twa going broke / bankrupt through wrong decisions being made and alienating customers and suppliers

[@alanrobertson9790]

Working out the probable costs of production and value for money based on other manufacturers seems reasonable and I cannot fault the material you presented. An additional aspect is the demand curve. If production was unconstrained then selling twice as many HSTs for 70% price would still get Hornby more cash but maybe there are production limits or maybe there were HSTs left on the shelf in previous years. So I think Hornby is pursuing a limited production max price strategy. If you consider a new diesel and electric modeller entering the hobby or Bill Gates then both these people are likely to buy. However for every newcomer needing 1 HST or millionaire collecting everything there are probably 3 or 4 (pure illustrative guess) people already in the hobby who already have some HSTs and they are only going to buy if the prices and liveries are attractive or they might buy a Dapol Class 29 instead - the hobby can be completely whimsical. It is this latter group (includes me) who Hornby with their very high prices are missing out on.

[@EuviRail]

Hi Alan, you can include me in that club as well. I'd buy more if I felt I was getting good value for money.

[@greenslider]

Very well presented. Possibly at some point in the future, some Chinese factory will acquire these templates and produce cheap models for a fraction of the price. It's occurred in other fields such as guitar manufacture. If the money is there to be made, someone will do it. I do wonder, however, if Hornby prices are reflective of the perennial unviability of the company. It seems to have problems with profitability and its fingers in far too many pots in terms of brands

[@dafyddthomas7299]

agree

[@thebritfarmer]

I think what will people pay comes into effect in pricing as well. The RRP for a Class 60 is £223.99 and a HST/DVT is £84.99 for a total of £308.98 so why is the HST pack £362.99 a difference of £54.01. That is a fair chunk of change. Thankfully there are no HSTs due for release that I need. I also opted to use Lima MK3s for my HST sets.

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Scott, this only highlights that even based on Hornby's own inflated prices the HST sets are out of kilter.

[@James-ih4gz]

I'm for now staying with getting stuff from marks models and Irm find they give decent prices on stuff i think in Ireland. Personally find the Irish diesels models look nicer and better value. Same with rolling stock. The stream trains is mainly what I'm looking for now probably get mix of brands. I am looking forward to Accurascale new steam trains coming I'm hyped.

[@EuviRail]

You won't go wrong there James. Just waiting for Accurascale to do an Irish steam loco. I don't model the era but I'd love a nice "preserved" Irish steam loco on the layout that had all the trimmings.

[@vcs00railway]

What you latest video does highlight is just what good value the Accurascale coaches and locos are. I know we've yet to see them, but if they are as well built as their freight stock the value for money will be 10/10. Hornby HST imparticular is massively over priced and done to death by Hornby. I will not be buying any more, the 800 is marginal working out at £100 / coach for a 5 car set.

[@EuviRail]

Yeah, Accurascale have been delivering excellent models up to now so no reason to expect differently going forward. I'm with you.

[@Rule1ModelRailways]

This is my thoughts exactly. They are price gouging us.

[@richardharvey7208]

Excellent review, I am a tight old Yorkshireman living in Ireland, I had two rules when I built my model railway mid 1980s theme, no NSE livery had a argument with two BR managers on Reading station, the snack bar no longer sold Eccles cakes I was most put out, liked them with a stewed cup of tea. The answer was “ how do you think we paid for all the new paint jobs “ my reply was your deluded and a complete waste of money I do not think they wanted to pursue the conversation as I was ready to punch some sense onto them, so yes a hatred to the pit of my tummy with NSE livery and finally has to be able to shunt with so BOBs (Buses on Bogies) DMU EMU HST are a no go. Seems My warped sense proved me right in the pocket.However I have a failing for Hornby Class 50s they are £40 plus more expensive but yet to find out if they have direction light and cab light as standard so time will tell All best Richard

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Richard. I sincerely hope the refactored Class 50s have a proper set of lighting along with their 21-pin decoder. It's long overdue for such an iconic model.

[@stevensmith2398]

Great video thanks...! I like the table and it is a fair for newly tooled models. The investment in tooling and origination costs of the model will be written down over time / volume sold. I would suggest they use 2-3years maybe longer? This effects the Rrp. So the class 43 being around for some time, should be a lot cheaper! Also look at the class 43 dvt R40162 this makes the the current Rrp for the set nonsense.

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Steven. I probably should have mentioned in the video that the current tool dates back to 2008 so it's paid for itself multiple times over. Pre-empting my review of the FGW, the age of the tool is showing now making the asking the price all the more outrageous.

[@dafyddthomas7299]

@@EuviRail crickey that is old - is there any restriction stopping some one else like dapol, accuscale in producing their own HsT

[@EuviRail]

@@dafyddthomas7299 Dapol do N gauge Class 43s so I would assume they should be able to crank out 00 Gauge versions as well if they wanted to? It would certainly be interesting to see Hornby's response on the pricing front....

[@dafyddthomas7299]

@@EuviRail Thanks for kind response - lets hope they do knock one out - an OO gauge HST model with good levels of detail and fair price

[@antman5474]

00 gauge has a limited market given it's odd scale unique to the UK, so new models are going to cost a bit more in order to recoup tooling costs. Years ago toy trains were a must for every aspiring middle class child, given the lack of computer chipped toys at that time, so they were manufactured in much greater numbers than they are now and the price reflected that. Hornby is now owned by investors, it's not the establishment it once was. Put simply it's not every kids go to under the Christmas tree on Christmas day that it once was. Not that that's a problem because today the aspiring middle class child of yesteryear now has the kind of spending power, and a very nice layout to boot, to justify the price and Hornby's investors know this. I believe that in the future these current models, if well looked after, will still hold their value on the second hand market just as the models of yesteryear have.

[@chrisking5355]

I want both of these, maybe 2 of each, I just will not purchase at the stated price and quality level and hope that either Accurascale OR Bachmann will come up with goods in the future. When you compare 500 pounds simple electronics in a plastic tube to a desktop computer set up one does wonder....then theres the add ons of chip not included!

[@malcolmlowe2323]

I would love a new hornby HST, but at these new prices, forget it. The industry has gone crazy, high prices for locos that have pieces falling off and no guarantee how they will run. The Hornby Hush-Hush seems a good example, I have seen many cases of these being returned for a refund NOT a replacement.

[@OlivierGabin]

Interesting to have a precise metering of what is an overpriced or not model. I'm especially panning Hornby for their german prices coupled with a low grade chinese quality. As a modeller of continental trains too, I can make the comparison, and it is harsh towards Hornby. You don't have a five poles motor on an Hornby steam engine at GBP 170 retailer's price while the entry-level engine in Roco's range at half this price get one, and a flywheel for it too ! The Hornby group had also to explain me why they can manufacture a TGV on the Jouef brand with better features and lower price than their class 800 is for the UK market... A TGV Ouigo rake of 2 coaches, a motor car and a dummy one is priced at the equivalent of GBP 319 retailer's price (analog, DCC sound version is higher priced). How can they price an Azuma nearly GBP 150 to 200 higher ?

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Olivier for your data points in terms of the European models.

[@michaelgrey7854]

We desperatly need a competitor to Hornby's class 43. Here in NZ the most recent HST packs are getting upto $900+ price range...

[@EuviRail]

Agree Michael. I have a review of the retooled Class 43 pending.

[@HamStrains]

Accurascale, small(in the scheme of it, hornby is also small in the grand scheme of UK companies even looking at the whole house not just the railway brand) no known debt, uncertain source/reserve of capital, uncertain what sort of deal they have with the factory or in terms of models of tooling ownership etc. Hornby, big, debt laden(still), capital to invest in new models comes on no doubt strict terms in terms of expectation of return on sunk cost, very likely tied into longer term more complex arrangements with factory that is the subcontractor for the production. Two completely different companies in two completely different financial situations, two completely different models of risk, terms on which they may commision new models or reruns, multiple different models of tooling ownership and different design ethos around tooling. Longer shot life tool at greater expense or shorter shot life tool at less cost and pump out the models and sell em fast. Different periods to amortise, different expectations re %return on investment in production runs or retooling. All this, all before we even hit the pandemic related problems and how they may effect each in term of finances and these risks playing into price. Also all this before we even go down the logical fallacy of comparing the price of two completely different classes. Where we discussing two models of say a black 5 it works, a black 5 is a black 5 is a black 5 the only differential is detail or quality or price relative to these subjective constructs, but it falls into false equivalence otherwise as if you want an HST then the other model is just useless to you and its price becomes an absolute irrelevance. But if we follow this path to its illogical end then the accurascale offering is objectively bad value compared to a smokey joe and 4 coaches.... they're both comparable right? Both just trains with X number of coaches. Respect your work but this one is a bit ehhh, critism of my points welcomed 🙂

[@equilibriumdx]

Even the latest mk3 dvt is over priced for essentially a defected model. I worry that every time I buy a Hornby model that it’s either cheap looking or defective in some way. They need to justify their costing and not solely based on shipping but quality also.

[@EuviRail]

Don't get me started on the MK3 DVT!

[@OlivierGabin]

And you don't even have to look at their GWR Prairie. Compared with the Dapol model, it's a joke, cheap looking AND defective... Hattons dumps them for GBP 100 those days.

[@stephenbromley2302]

Just ordered the Hornby R3827 Azuma set for £299 with free postage which I thought was a good price from kernowmodelrailcentre should be here on Tuesday,ok it’s the Celebrating Scotland model but the normal set R3762 was £430 a fair difference I don’t run any particular era just what I like on my layout.

[@EuviRail]

It's a bargain at that price Stephen and hopefully it will be a good runner for you. Enjoy!

[@simondean5998]

Things might be about to change watch this space

[@Mattslade6024]

Great video. I really do like the way you worked it all out. Hornby models are way over priced. They feel cheap and toy like. I'm not buying any of the new 43s. I'll be getting older secondhand models instead

[@Rule1ModelRailways]

the new tooling on the HSTs isn't that noticeable anyway. Looking from a spectators point of view, you can't see the couplings under the cars.

[@stevehirst536]

To top it all off, if it's anything like the kinematic couplings they fitted to the 60s etc they'll be useless anyway

[@tenterdentown2452]

Interesting analysis, but I think you are not taking into account the depreciation in the power of money. What you need to do is factor in a historic inflation calculator. How much did a Hornby Dublo train set cost in 1960? And how much would that be in today's money? A £10 train set in 1960 works out £238 in today's money! Thanks for uploading.

[@EuviRail]

Thanks for that. In my review of the old Lima CIE Supertain (kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3TFp2mJhrV8hLc) the £10 price of the day translated into £60 in 2019. There was no way you'd get an equivalent set to this in 2019 for £60 though - and the original Lima set was built in Italy not China. The model price inflation has become particularly bad over the last few years. It was certainly a lot better 10 or even 5 years ago.

[@brickleyyard4966]

Don't pay for either from Hornby hst pack should be 250 to 280 max Class 800 should be no more than 380 from Hornby what thay are charging should be outlaw

[@TheSps24]

I know I could be challenged that I'm not comparing apples with apples here, but get this. A Kato N gauge CLASS 800/2 LNER AZUMA is priced just short of £180, a Hornby R3965 LNER Hitachi Class 801/2 Azuma 5 Car Train Pack in OO gauge is just south of £480. Madness............

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Bill. I was actually tempted to reference that very model in the course of the analysis but didn't want to complicate the discussion. You're point is correct though as 00 Gauge and N Gauge prices don't differ by 100% or more so this is another pointer to the fact that Hornby's 800s are overpriced.

[@johncreech4631]

Interesting. I had seen the Azuma for £350 but that was from Malta (£25 postage) and a bit reluctant to order and would rather buy in the UK even though it looked reasonable. Just can't quite justify it. I think give it a year or two the price will come down and you can get mega bargains on things like I have and as you've said in previous reviews a few issues to be addressed. Actually looking at R3750 for just under £200.

[@EuviRail]

R3750 for £200 is a steal - a 10 in my ratings system.

[@johncreech4631]

Just put in the order

[@TomScrut]

Not sure the AS mk5as would be that price if they had been announced after they moved towards having a dealer network (and so needing a margin there)

[@mccarronfamily]

Probably more in line with the mk2b’s if tooled up now with a retailer margin built in

[@mccarronfamily]

Catch 22 of supporting shops and a retail network I guess :)

[@TomScrut]

Although it does seem Hornbys business model seems to be they want to have the margin for retailers but sell direct anyway!

[@OgaugeTrainsplusslotCars]

Sweet♐♐♐♐♐♐♐♐♐

[@1701_FyldeFlyer]

Difficult using Accurascale and other's proposed priced because I think they'll actually be higher due toinflation when finally on sale. Id expect the price to increase by at least 10%. Fact is with Hornby, they are having to make the company profitable after years of loss making which is also a reason they've tried to stop retailers discount prices as it undercuts their on line sales.

[@newlynnrailway]

There MD has stated that all models planned for this year are priced and there is no intention or need to raise the price.

[@EuviRail]

I was in the save Hornby camp until the last round of increases and until I saw them delete my Azuma feedback on their website as it wasn't a 5 star review. That was the last straw. They've lost their integrity in my book. £362 for a HST is actually an insult. I know where you're coming from with the best intentions in the world but Hornby don't deserve special favour any more and need to be judged on merit like everyone else.

[@Ste1952]

Also, there is a new powered accurascale announcement coming next week in advance of the Glasgow show. The price it is released at will be telling.

[@waynemeakin]

Anything over £240 for the HST is extortion. It's in effect a loco and a coach with a £5 dcc socket.

[@johnoneill5661]

Hornby over charge on everything not just these and they get away with it because you don’t have a choice, but then you also have people who only buy hornby and will defend their ludicrous prices to the death 🙄

[@TanVasinTrains]

Hey um I found a class 800 in GWR livery plus the coach pack and the motor cars for 583 pounds on olivias trains which I think it’s kinda worth it? Ish? But I think the class 800 packs as a whole is too overpriced

[@EuviRail]

Hi, Olivia's Trains tend to be on the pricey side and have upped their prices on these items from their original RRPs. Unless you're really keen I'd go elsewhere. If you don't mind the rainbow this could be a pre-order option that should land pretty soon: www.themodelcentre.com/r3872-hornby-oo-gauge-1-76-scale-gwr-class-800-trainbow-train-pack-era-11

[@TanVasinTrains]

@@EuviRail Thx, I really enjoy your videos like the 800 videos are cool

[@TanVasinTrains]

@@EuviRail also maybe next video can you do a video of a class 438 4tc or a class 205?

[@MrJoshiej]

N Gauge Class 43 HST is so much cheaper Hornby prices are getting really expensive

[@EuviRail]

Absolutely - I have to say I'm envious of the N Gauge fraternity at times and this is one of them.

[@ciaranburke3243]

Very interesting, hornby are way over priced and still suffer from sketchy quality control, i picked up a class 43 gwr gloss green train pack from hattons 2 years ago for 260 euros all in, I spotted a fgw pack in marks last week for 400 euros doesn't add up.

[@EuviRail]

Thanks for that.

[@TanVasinTrains]

@@EuviRail Why is Hornby class 800 so over priced?? it infuriates me to see that prices of Hornby, Goes up to a overpriced level, They should reprice it at 150 - 250 pounds because its not high quality

[@zackkahn6375]

Hornby is now the rich persons hobby, no longer the hobby for the masses, I will be looking at others to fill the gaps... No more Hornby...

[@TanVasinTrains]

Hornbys class 800 is too expensive for me anyway, this price of 477 pounds to 502 pounds is absolute bulls**t , maybe if the model was reverted back to 395 to maybe 280 pounds, then i would be happier

[@EuviRail]

I'm with you.

[@TanVasinTrains]

@@EuviRail well theres going to be the class 423 by hornby too for 363 pounds

[@TanVasinTrains]

@@EuviRail instead of 502 pounds it should be about 200 pounds

[@andrewblades8368]

I think this is a very fair assessment of Hornby’s pricing. All companies are facing the same pressures but only Hornby has put its prices up this much. I’ve still got the Hornby Cl91 + Mk4 on order but only because it’s pretty much essential for the area I model. I expect it to arrive with some issues as the last few items I’ve had from Hornby have had problems. After that I doubt I’ll be in any rush to buy anything else from Hornby until they have a rethink about how they run their business

[@EuviRail]

Thanks Andrew. I hope you had pre-ordered the '91 before the last price hikes?