Horus Heresy TIER LIST (but LORE!) - Which Legion was the strongest at the end of the Great Crusade?

[@namefinder]

Very interesting video, shows how critical the betrayal at calth was for the rebels. Also puts the siege of terra in context in a way the usual "x legions versus y legions" doesn't.

[@chip2432]

The Calth disaster also created the Ruinstorm which was critical to the Traitors in both thwarting the Loyalists, as well as helping the Traitors. "Damn you. Lorgar!"

[@Hanfgurkenhasser]

"Rebels"

[@WilCornish]

As a Raven Guard player… I'm just glad you measured at the *start* of the Heresy, rather than after Istvaan, where we had four marines, the word "oops" written on a piece of paper, and a lot of military surplus eyeliner. Update: Ah.

[@chadvonfulgrim]

yea sorry about all that mess on istvaan

[@ArbitorIan]

Ha! Yeah, tbh I was surprised how few there were at the START of the Heresy. Stupid Corax, exiling half his bloody Legion.

[@lagger7772]

@arbitordan the lore states that they favoured Horus so they would have gone traitor so it may have saved his legion from internal dissent

[@unnamedenemy9]

@@lagger7772 but the ones who we see are the Ashen Claws, and they just showed up to murder some Night Lords and fuck back off into unknown space and remain opposed to Traitor forces still

[@sajadhoxhaj6603]

@@unnamedenemy9 don't know much lorewise only fragments from the horus heresy legions card game. Are the ashen claws that space marine band led by nerat kirine and were those basically space pirates?

[@mrsniffles5417]

Really shows just how successful the Word Bearers really were. People love to hate on them, and writers keep having their champions get catharticly beaten, but my gods they were deadly.

[@Bluecho4]

That's Imperialist (that is, Imperialism in general, not just the 40K Imperium) framing in a nutshell. An empire is only as great as the enemies they can defeat. It's why Rome always used its propaganda to make "barbarian" tribes seem really savage and effective, to make Rome's victory/conquest over them ("defensively", of course) seem both justified and glorious. Rather than an organized empire butchering a people who just wanted to defend their homes from invaders. You also see this in the rhetoric of real life Fascist movements. The "Them" fascists claim are "Us"'s enemies must be simultaneously strong (to justify the force of arms and stripping of rights required to "fight" them) and weak (to make it seem, to the cowardly bigots that fascism attracts, that their enemies are "take-able", as well as part of fascism's general obsession with denigrating their enemies as weak degenerates). Obviously in 40K, the writers are composing fiction, and thus can make the fascist Imperium's enemies _actually_ as strong as they need to be, to justify the force and violence brought against them. It would hardly be dramatically satisfying if the Loyalists weren't underdogs. (Unfortunately, that also contributes to the general problem in 40K's metanarrative, of making Fascism seem justified in-universe. There's a reason Real Life fascists really like 40K.)

[@stevenagelutton4322]

@@Bluecho4 Real Life Fascists like a lot of Anti-Fascist fiction, because they are quite happy to deliberately ignore the satirical elements, even very unsubtle ones. The only Anti-Fascist satire that works (if you define "works" as "cannot be co-opted by the fascists it is mocking") is stuff like The Producers, because they can't really co-opt it when they're the punchline of the joke and not really cool or scary at all.

[@Bluecho4]

@@stevenagelutton4322 I know, right? Still, GW don't do the game any favors by making the Imperium sympathetic. Indeed, by engineering the setting details such that it unintentionally reinforces the fascist worldview.

[@EAfirstlast]

They were deadly once and whiffled after. But also, like, the word bearers lost 50 thousand marines and most of their deployed fleet assets at calth too, but their tier didn't Drop? Suspicious.

[@andreapellegrino4469]

@@rowanmcdowell291 how is chaos associated with fascism? Idk, the imperium look like the fascists to me

[@ArbitorIan]

EDIT: In the new Loyalist Legions book, it states that the Space Wolves were a terrifying veteran force composed of...... 75000 Marines, who had suffered losses that dropped them to 25000 pretty soon in. So I might have OVER estmated them?🤣

[@wraithship]

They were just the executioner. I.e. the showy beheader to make enemies bend the knee through fear. And to extend the metaphor, those who are already on the executioners block rarely are in a position to fight back.

[@davidtrujillo1689]

Unironically I always thought of the WE as the real executioners, they where the real melee specialist, and the ones who really brought down real foes and where truly scary.

[@NapGod]

That's what they get for going Leeroy Jenkins to kill Horus while everyone's digging in on Terra.

[@EAfirstlast]

@@davidtrujillo1689 An executioner that kills indiscriminately is ust a mass murderer. But the warhounds were essentially the space wolves pre primarchs, Angron ruined them, while Russ saved the wolves.

[@eater_of_garbage_]

The Space wolves are just a deterrent to make people not revolt. And the point of a deterrent is to not be used. The Dark Angels are the real executioners.

[@michaelkelly1267]

I like the idea of ranking them by unit strength; as if the Space Marines themselves might give lots of credence to reputation, but actually one genetically enhanced super-soldier is more or less as good as any other. The one quibble I'd have is just calculating the Thousand Sons on numbers. Like, if you're including fleet, and equipment quality, them being space wizards seems equally as relevant a consideration.

[@EAfirstlast]

Doctrine is important. Space marines in legions specialized and were better at their specialty then others

[@luclin92]

I think it is that they had counters and that even if they had a lot of space wizards they still don't have enough of a supporting force to make sure the strongest of them can deal with the numbers of other bigger legions.

[@nathanburriss6533]

Ask the space wolves why they're numbers are so low. Lol

[@captainparty]

I always find it interesting how the 4 traitor legions who revealed themselves at Isstvan V had already purged their ranks of those who wouldn’t follow. The Iron Warriors already attacked those in their ranks at the Decimation of Olympia who wouldn’t follow Perturabos orders to commit atrocity, the Alpha Legion were going along with which ever part of plan they knew, the Word Bearers had slowly replaced anyone not loyal over the 50 years since Monarchia, the Night Lords are an odd one though, they’d already committed their own atrocity at Nostramo but that led to a lot of bitterness at Curze from amongst the ranks, I guess they’re so full of hate and spite that they can hate the Loyalists and Night Haunter at the same time and so didn’t need to kill off any who might balk at the task ahead.

[@Crushanator1]

I feel like Night Lords are in a similar position to Word Bearers, the recruiting from Nostromo had a big effect on their mindset, and it feels fair to say they were more or less all violent and murderous sociopaths more interested in the thrill of butchery than enforcing an Imperial edict. Saying they're basically all renegades that are doing what either they personally want, or their commanders intimidate them into doing, means more or less 100% of them fought against the Imperial forces. I feel like the Terran marines would have either followed the Night Haunter, been killed by him personally as reprimands, or had Nostromans do friendly fire battle field accidents over that period

[@jtrain9926]

@@Crushanator1 "we recruited all our forces from the ganster-planet... what could go wrong?"

[@ReverendMeat51]

Don't forget though that after Olympia, Perturabo was pleased to hear that a good number of his sons refused to take part in the atrocity

[@sinenomine7115]

I don't think that most Night Lords really "hated" anyone. I honestly don't think that most of them gave enough of a shit to feel that deeply about either Curze or the Imperium. They were basically a giant gang of superhuman space pirates held together by fear of Curze. They were driven mostly by self interest.

[@vibechecker3168]

yeah the word bearers either replaced the loyalists or sent the remaining companies out into the far reaches. iron warriors have mad attrition and they seem to be a more loyal legion towards the primarch, through duty if not love.

[@r.j.macready]

They've handled this part of the Dark Angels story well in the books. Very potent. Very dangerous. Utterly defeated by not being allowed to play. The Lion and his Legion become so melancholy not being able to even fight and lose I'm glad the authors spent time exploring that.

[@shmoovs107]

yeah the 30k DA were awesome the 40k ones are just annoying with their overarching hunt for the fallen.

[@gideonhorwitz9434]

@@shmoovs107 the hunt for the fallen in many ways shows how much they have deviated for on their original purpose. If the lion come back in 10th edition that will change and hopefully we will get to see the first legion restored to its glory

[@sugarcombfilms3467]

@@shmoovs107 Read Luther: First of the Fallen. It's a great novel and delves deep into how far the Dark Angels have fallen....*buh dum tish!*

[@ShadowGhost0117]

Really speaks to their effectiveness that Horus purposely sent them out to the far fringes to get them as far away as possible. All because Horus knew that if the Lion could get involved soon enough, then they alone could make the difference due to their specialists and Dark Age Tech weaponry. It’s a similar reason as to why he sent Lorgar and Angron to keep Guilliman contained. If the Ultramarines had been able to get involved in the larger picture a lot sooner then they would have made a huge difference due to their sheer numbers and infrastructure.

[@TheKingsPride]

This just proves one very key thing to me: the most important player in the heresy was Lorgar. Imagine if the ruinstorm hadn’t happened. Even if the ultramarines had been decimated like they had, that would mean the full wrath of The Lion bearing down on Horus, pinning him against Dorn, The Khan, and Sanguinius at Terra. Honestly the traitor legions should feel relieved that they only lost their home planets to the Dark Angels.

[@Warh0und]

An amazing idea for a video. I hope we get a sequel showing this tier list through the scouring. I had no idea the Imperial Fists only had those numbers, in my mind they were always a larger legion, so that was a big eye opener. I also had no idea the World Eater numbers were that good in spite of their Primarch. This video was super informative and if I had to pick someone to become. A skeletal robot overlord who ran a 40k space museum, it would be you.

[@im2randomghgh]

I've always wondered if that was the number of them who were still crusading at the start of the heresy, as opposed to all those who were garrisoned on conquered worlds? The other explanations that have occurred to me are that it was to balance them out since they were probably the most intact legion of them all at the time of the Siege, or to explain why they had a middling number of second founding chapters? I think the early crusade lore mentioned that their screening was particularly rigorous, as well.

[@serronserron1320]

I would also argue that he's completely wrong about the Dark Angels because they suffer heavy casualties against the Night Lords and their own Renegades. The Imperial fists were extremely effective Not only defending Terra of but also pushing out across the Galaxy. The Imperial Fists should be an S-tier and the Dark Angels should be in B. While numbers are important, the capabilities of each are also.

[@mcpanzer4637]

By far the best tier list for 30k! Exactly what I hope new players see, not the power ranking flavor of the week we seem to get elsewhere!

[@muratferguson4534]

mmm... i dont think so. Its just about numbers instead of their true ability for success.

[@EAfirstlast]

@@muratferguson4534 And the numbers are a bit questionable :D

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

Best intro ever. All that was missing was a record scratch sound effect.

[@AW-wf2dx]

I watch a lot of tier list videos (they seem to be like 50% of KZbin Nerd Content these days?) and this one is very fun. Special kudos to your icons and animations (wee flashes). Nicely polished.

[@onua2012sga]

As a massive Thousand Sons fanboy such a low ranking is disappointing but utterly reasonable. The whole “they’re all space wizards” thing does give them an immense edge when fighting against similar numbers but I guess you can’t mind-bullet your way around small numbers and a very limited logistical and allied network.

[@ArbitorIan]

What I was surprised at was that the Raven Guard were apparently just as small!

[@EVER_PRINCE]

@@ArbitorIan you see however, you put the Thousand Sons very low, at only 80,000. However do not forget, they lead their own against the entire Space Wolves Legion, who were being supported by both the Imperial Auxila, the Custodes, and the Silent Sisters. so consider. If only 80,000 can hold off against a legion that is larger than their own, AND is being supported by Custodes and the Silent Sisters. Sure they didn’t win. But they didn’t get instantly destroyed.

[@onua2012sga]

@@EVER_PRINCE not only were they not instantly destroyed (with zero warning and zero fleet support), if the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood were not present then the Imperials would have likely lost. And if they didn’t, they likely would have been devastated to the point of “F” tier anyway.

[@onua2012sga]

@AiEatzAzz a wise observation, AiEatzAzz

[@gama343]

When a single guy from the Thousand Sons can pick up a tank an use it to squish whole squads of Space Wolves, I'm pretty sure they absolutely can mind bullet their way around small numbers. In fact, because they use mind bullets, they don't even need logistical support in the same way other legions do. They have very little need to consider ammo supply lines, and can let their opponents waste all of their shots on psychic barriers. Despite being the smallest legion, Horus considered them a threat similar to the Ultramarines or the Blood Angles at the start of the Heresy, and used the same kind of preemptive strike to try to remove them from the board before they became a problem.

[@wraithship]

I'd argue that the wolves also took significantly damage at the burning of prospero and should drop a tier

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

They lost ca. 20-30k marines in that battle. So yes

[@warchiefzeke9134]

The Wolves were then dabbed on by the Alpha Legion at Alaxes, returned to Terra then committed ritual seppuku when Leman kamikazed his remaining legion into the Sons of Horus. They were down less than a couple thousand, losing Marines by the scores when Corax found and saved them and comatose Leman from the pursuing traitors. Absolutely destroyed their legion before the Siege.

[@wraithship]

@@warchiefzeke9134 they're the legion of play stupid games, win stupid prizes

[@TheRovingRebel61]

I would love to see a post-Siege of Terra tier list as well, to see overall how each legion fared during the Heresy and which ones came out the worst/best off

[@Freedmoon44]

Honestly we would also need the Scouring aswell since Terra alone had the rebels retreat but not finished

[@jeffreysmith6910]

I want more videos that start like this one. Heck, I want ENTIRE videos like the intro to this one!!! When Ian goes over the top, it's especially funny because it's Ian!

[@Lulba]

Lmao, yes Ian we need to start measuring 40k in tier lists. I hope -tzeentch- the algorithm rewards you for your offering

[@retroriven9740]

Great video. Love to see my Dark Angel boys in the top tier!

[@LordGrantius]

Unfortunately I can't access my books at the moment but I recall some Calth story (I think it may have been in Betrayer) mentioning the Ultramarines took about 30%-50% losses at Calth, while the Word Bearers had sent about a third of their legion in - and relatively few made it out. Immediately after, the battle of Armatura and then Nuceria saw the Word Bearers and World Eaters substantially bloodied. I do not think it would be crazy to suggest the Word Bearers, in the opening phases, suffering almost 50% losses. Losing two of the three super heavy vessels in those opening battles should affect the calculation when fleets are taken into account. Also Isstvan III, it was stated that a third of each of the legions was sent to die, and the World Eaters suffered even higher after due to Angrons insistence on giving his warriors honourable deaths. Similar to some other commenters I recommend including Thramas and Signus in the calculations.

[@ArbitorIan]

I think to include Thramas would need a 'mid-Heresy' option. It's way later. Should probably have included Signus though!

[@LordGrantius]

@@ArbitorIan true, at least to count the cost of the campaign. It was essentially the first major engagements for those legions though

[@aparslet]

According to know no fear the Ultras suffered around 160 000 casualties at Calth. 120 000 dead and 40 000 wounded beyond combat capability. In exchange the word bearers lost 50 000. Pretty good trade if I may say so myself.

[@KuK137]

@@aparslet Uh, no. Word Bearers committed 120.000 to Calth and almost no one returned. Shows how bad legion they are, massive advantage of surprise and warp magic and only managed about 1:1 losses with Ultramarines although to be fair Lorgar sent the most inept and rebellious there...

[@SleepySoviet]

@@KuK137there were only 50k WB on Calth

[@Nephermoore]

Excellent video... Really, one of the best. Your procedure was clean, points were precise and fair. You considered everything I could think of, and you wasted absolutely 0 time with it. I don't think there will be a tierlist video on this topic that matches yours in quality for a long, long time.

[@Hanfgurkenhasser]

One small thing I as a relative newcomer to the HH would have loved would be colour coding the loyalist and traitor legions. I can see that both in S tier are loyalist but apart from them and a few select legions, I'll have to refer as to how edgy their sigil is to gauge whether they're with Horus or Big E. Just a minor suggestion, great video. :)

[@jonlyon2728]

I got my big box of darkness today, your timing is impecable. Thanks Arbitorian

[@stormneedstroopers24]

Awesome analysis man, I think this is one of your best videos. I can imagine Horus making the same tier list when planning the rebellion.

[@celticfox]

Also would love more lore on the Rangdan Xenocides, theming my Dark Angels as the veterans of said war. Plus the Nemean is such a cool "mystery" character.

[@castor3020]

Sons of Horus lost at least a third of their numbers at Istvaan III, that combined with being a tenuous A-tier should've dropped them at least to B-tier. Luna wolves/Sons of Horus have always been an issue of telling instead of showing their strength, Horus is mediocre in any books that mention him when it comes to decisions etc. Though his Charisma shines nicely! We could use more pre-heresy books on the Luna Wolves. I doubt Failbaddon is salvageable but I'd like to hear more of the Legion's strengths and my favorite characters, Maloghurst, Tor Gaddon, Garviel, Horus... They really need to write more about Horus at his best.

[@jean-christopherothacker6959]

Just as a suggestion: If you are comparing legions before and after the opening moves of the heresy, maybe include Blood Angels after the Battle of Signus prime. After all, this was the Warmaster's attempt at crippling Sanguinius and his legion.

[@davidjohnson-rj7op]

I love your series of video about the HH legions lore! BTW. The Space Wolfs are not called the executioners because they could kill a legion, but that they could kill Primarchs. That's why Horus didn't like Russ, because he knew only Russ could beat him. Russ was able to beat Magus, position himself to kill Angron to make a point, and even when his legion was all but spent made it to Horus's flag ship and only didn't kill him because he hoped the emperors spear would turn Horus from Chaos.

[@necrometicsonofthelion]

He was more afraid about Sanguinius then Leman Russ. And Leman Russ was also never sure that he could beat Horus during the time of the Great Crusade. And he didnt like Leman because he was the second primarch to be found after him. He lost the undivided attention of the emperor and that made him jealous.

[@davidjohnson-rj7op]

@@necrometicsonofthelion Yea, maybe you are right on the points about Russ and Horus, but I think it still stand that Wolfs are called the executioners because they are there to kill Primarchs, not legions.

[@eergegerg23]

In book "The Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal" was information that Death Guard is 95k. About third of legion was loyal so traitors purged them on Istvaan 3 (and also lost thousands). And on Istvaan 5 they had some casualties too. So I think they are definetely D-tier with about 50k.

[@66morningview]

I always wondered where you were pulling the numbers from when you doing the Legion run throughs. I was literally thinking of asking this question on your next Legion video, now I no longer have to ask! Great work as always.

[@jonathankilby6636]

Despite the tier list, look at how the salamanders rebuilt and were able to hold the death guard at bay. Shows how damn resilient that legion was

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Which battles are you referring to? The Salamanders didn't to my knowledge fight major engagements with the 14th Legion.

[@lachlanmacrae1779]

@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen The most major encounter with the Death gaurd I know of was when the Salamanders were returning to Nocturne with Vulkan's "corpse", the Death gaurd began chasing them, as the Captain wanted to be the first space marine to completely kill a primarch, however the Salamanders managed to land their Thunderhawk (I think, don't remember the specific vehicle) and made it to an ally camp. The death gaurd then started attacking them and failed horrendously, first they dropped their chemical gasses onto them, only for it to burn in Nocturne 's atmosphere and anything that wasn't instantly destroy was either blown away by the winds or further nutralised by the ground troops' flamers, the Death gaurd then descended in their own thunderhawks, only for most of them to have their engines become clogged with the atmospheric ash and fatally crash onto the surface, the few thunderhawks that did land attracked the native fauna (including a salamander fire drake) and another large amount of deathgaurd troops and vehicles were destroyed, then when the Deathgaurd finally made it to the camp, the Salamanders revealed that they had 1,000 new troops that had been trained by their chaplain, who was instructed by Vulkan to stay behind before the dropsite massacre to raise new troops and defences for Nocturne, The Death gaurd Captain was quickly killed and the remaining deathgaurd that didn't retreat in time were also killed.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

@@lachlanmacrae1779 ahh yes. I had totally forgotten that one. Nick Kyme's books are not exactly page-turners...

[@TheHandofDestiny]

They didn't really hold the Death Guard at bay at all, more like their planet did

[@markcoroneos7811]

@@TheHandofDestinyjust like how the DG arnt really that tough, they just get a lot of chaos plot armour buffs?

[@ImSarahNow]

Well done, Alpharius, we have hidden our strength quite well..

[@TheMrFishnDucks]

Fantastic video. I had no idea about the legion sizes, always thought they were way larger. Keep up the good work.

[@horuslupercal9936]

Great list. I normally eschew regular Tier Lists but this was a pleasant change.

[@jpanderson2569]

The four most powerful Legions....according to Horus himself (in the FW Black Books) involved special plans to neutralize: (in no particular order): -Dark Angels: they were sent beyond the galactic rim by order of Horus himself -Space Wolves: sent to get mauled on Prospero. What's interesting is that this was NOT planned by Horus (ordered by Big Papa E himself) but Horus intervened and altered the orders to make it as bloody as possible. Bonus effect of galvanizing the Thousand Sons into joining the Traitor cause when they were essentially on the fence. We don't know what Horus originally had in mind for the VI, but the books state how he leapt at the opportunity to neutralize what he considered one his biggest threats -Blood Angels: sent to Signus Prime to be corrupted and/or wiped out. -Ultramarines: the Pearl Harbor of Calth. NOTE: what's paritcularly interesting about Calth is that the Black Books specifically state that the UM were the largest *known* *ground* force among the Legions, but had a shockingly small fleet in comparison...one of the smallest of all the Legions. Thus it makes perfect sense why Horus would hamstring them by destroying the fleet and leave them stranded: maximum effect for relatively low effort. It's not in a single book, but spread throughout all 8 Black Books they mention Horus' special concern for those four and the elaborate plans he made to specifically put them aside. Another interesting tidbit is the effort Horus put into converting Ferrus Manus. Ferrus was the 3rd Primarch rediscovered and was given what we would consider a Theater Command: an entire wing of the Great Crusade to lead. For that reason I would move the IH up a notch. The NL were in such disarray even before the HH that I would have to put them in the D tier. I think it even mentions how Terra was considering some sort of multi-Primarch intervention with them by the time the HH kicks off. The only thing that kept them together was the outbreak of the HH itself (too big of a fight to miss out on). They then shattered not long afterwards. TS's power far outranks their numbers. That was kind of their whole point. They were used very deliberately and the things they could do in ways no one else could made them disproportionately powerful. The in-universe author of the Black Books talks about how the #s for the AL don't add up and the amount of AL assets seen simultaneously operating across the galaxy makes him suspect that they are in fact the largest of all the Legions. Fun video.

[@marccrener497]

I'm glad to watch such a video! Thank you very much ^^ Iron Within, Iron Without!

[@normtrooper4392]

This is what I wanted. I always learn something from your videos

[@HouseButch]

Awesome video! Puts a lot of things into perspective!

[@lonstrickland6571]

Cool video. Neat to see the legions strength change through the heresy.

[@fdbetancor]

Great video and lots of fun to follow the lore on legion strength. My only change might be to drop the Word Bearers down a tier after Calth - even though the ambush was successful, they still lost on the order of 40k-50k legionnaires and substantial naval forces, including the Furious Abyss (not Calth, but same time)

[@Freedmoon44]

The irony when the strongests Chaos Legions are only undivided lol

[@BlasphemousDreadnought]

I love this look into everything. Shows things in a realistic, balanced light.

[@rubengerritsen6868]

Yes fucking amazing intro 😂 I love how the whole “playing to play with your awesome painted models” is still the main theme of this game!

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

Great video Ian! I only really have 1 issue, it is with the 4th Legion. Perturabo destroyed Olympus before he turned traitor. He ruined his recruiting base. They cannot be A tier in my eyes as a result.

[@shrekzebee4435]

Olympia isnt the only recruitment pool for the iron warriors. Infact, they have an entire cluster for that. So no, not only are your eyes blind, you're also stupid

[@zevriungames7463]

I think the DA are high S tier when you take into account the vaults of banned and arcane weapons they had access to like the silica animus (basically enslaved ai)

[@chrisrwedwards]

Great video would have been so helpful to colour code loyalist vs traitor though

[@benwilliams7902]

Very good list, although because Calth was actually less successful than planned, and arguably a failure militarily the Word Bearers should be moved down as a result too. The black books make reference to their losses I think, as do maybe the novels, but huge numbers of the word bearers committed were lost, and certainly far more than expected. That at least should probably drop them to C tier, and much of their "strength" after that point came from their "allied" demonic and other forces instead. Similarly, the figures for Ultramarine causalities are for those who immediately left Calth, not actually for the total causalities. We know that significant portions survived, both to fight in the underground war and the shadow crusade. It probably leaves them at least at B tier. Other notable start of heresy actions would include Signus Prime which drops the blood angels probably to D tier and Alaxxes which combined with Prospero moves the Wolves solidly to D tier if not lower

[@NastyStankyChicken]

Blood angels didn't lose that many marines on Signus Prime though, they actually did really well and Sanguinius slew both Ka'Bandah and Kyriss two of the top generals for chaos, foiling Horuses plan and dealing a massive blow to chaos at the same time as Horus thought the blood angels would be wiped out or turned to his side from the ambush or atleast tied up indefinitely.

[@samuelclarvoe7177]

Some day I would love to see a grand strategy horus heresy game, something with a genuine galactic map and escalation/betrayal phases. Something like Diplomacy or the Dune board game. See how things play out over and over again, see who ends up warmaster and what that means, etc. Really do it like a semi-historical game.

[@ashe274]

Honestly, seeing this just makes me respect the Night Lords more. They held their own (for a not insignificant time) against one of the biggest legions with some of the best gear, and they were basically all thieves, rapists, and assorted criminals turned transhuman. And they were outnumbered by a wide margin! Honestly, Thramas seems much more a testament to their strength than an indictment of their failings.

[@ArbitorIan]

Or a testament to their tactics. Total hit and run while the Dark Angels chase them around trying to do honuorable duels and stuff.

[@ashe274]

@@ArbitorIan yeah, but hey, whatever wins the fight - especially against a foe like the Dark Angels ;)

[@TheRiceHill]

Hate to be that guy but according to the black books there were around 100k Night Lords at Thramas whilst there were only 70k Dark Angels in that campaign...

[@ashe274]

@@TheRiceHill Seems you are correct, but it also seems the DA had more ships - which, as I understand, is significant because most of the NL losses were not on planetary conflicts but interstellar ones.

[@zebwheeler5683]

Saw the insta notification and stopped what I was doing! Your heresy vids are the best!

[@ArbitorIan]

Yay! Thank you!

[@brianbowers2318]

What a fantastic video, Ian. well done. A great summary of the opening moves of the Heresy with the results easy to see. Super awesome.

[@namechanged2053]

Haha love the intro, also exactly wondering this exact topic

[@zackcook5123]

Spot on I can't really think of an argument against this. I would add the Iron Hands practically collapsed in the Heresy due to infighting. That and they lost most of their veterans which would ruin leadership.

[@ernakopmak5373]

This is a great topic, hope you could also cover a tier list on each of the legion's military effectiveness (i.e., how they fared at actually completing missions, doing dirty work for the Imperium, winning battles without losing too much resources/manpower, how well they apply their legion's signature strengths/core values to accomplish goals, etc) and/or combat proficiency.

[@Freedmoon44]

Alpha Legion would have alot of trouble being in such list considering they did alot of secret stuff before they "came out of secrecy" (this is a lie)

[@thetalantonx]

What did you do before/what do you do aside from KZbin? Your videos are consistently both insanely approachable, and actively useful even for veteran players. You present a precis of a ton of information in a fun, informative, and often funny way. No matter the reason that you can do this, I sincerely appreciate it. Thanks for the awesome videos!

[@invictarussuzerain]

This. This sort of video is what I come to KZbin for. Also hell yes my blue boys are in the S tier.

[@ArbitorIan]

I mean, they WERE in the S tier. Well done Lorgar I guess?

[@EAfirstlast]

@@ArbitorIan :P But where are lorgar's losses? Also the Ultras were the only legion with significant strength left standing at the end of the heresy too. Honestly, the S tier for the ultramarines is the 500 worlds, not the 200 thousand marines.

[@kublai2222]

What a great video! Keep up your amazing work. Best hobby tuber!

[@secondeditionwargaming]

Very informative for someone who hasn't read about HH since Codex titanicus!

[@BAGALUTT]

Awsome! A quality tier list would be nice with the most common entities e.g. imperial guard soldier F-tier, avg space marine B-Tier, Chaos gods S+ Tier etc.

[@Pariah502]

The Word Bearers definitely need to drop a tier after Calth. Lorgar purged his legion there and lore says the amount of legionnaires lost numbers in the tens of thousands as well as half their fleet assets.

[@Gallowglacht]

I know this is a year late, but - it would probably be fair to drop them a tier due to physical losses, however, they should probably bounce back up a tier since they are by now able to muster significant forces of daemons, possessed and Warp Magic. So a net Status Quo.

[@TheGoldenDragon_]

This was very interesting and entertaining watch. Thank you.

[@metallixbrother]

Really enjoyed this video, thought it was very interesting. I would love to see how these numbers and military strengths altered and shifted further once the Heresy progresses and by the time of the Siege!

[@robertstrong6798]

Hmmmmmm as every single member of the thousand sons was a phyker that counts for somthing , I remember reading 📚 one battle brother could rip through whole armies. The presence of the silent sisters is the only thing that stoped them wipping out the space wolves once they started to fight back

[@brandtconor1]

I don't comment on anything besides the World War Two day by day channel, but this video was too good not to comment. The first 12 seconds of this video are very funny. Good work!

[@icholi88]

Alpha Legion was closer to the Ultramarines than your list accounts for, they had acquired or stolen the best technology and equipment, managed to blockade both the white scars and Space wolves just with just their secondary fleet and their near universal presence in the Heresy means their logistics and supply was probably the best of all of the legions. Alpha Legion easily deserves S tier though they may be the only "traitor" legion to do so on their own.

[@Crushanator1]

This is fair, but since they also seemed to recruit and operate in smaller cell based structures that never communicated and may even have been unaware of each other they may never have been able to bring their full strength to bear either

[@EAfirstlast]

A lot of it is smoke and mirrors. In Scars, when the scars are blasting past them, they notice that several of the alpha legion warhsips are disguised bulk transporters. It's hard to ever rely on numbers with the alpha legion because they neurotically hid stuff, but also neurotically revealed the things they hid.

[@icholi88]

@@Crushanator1 They are the unbroken chain, it only looks chaotic from the outside.

[@BackWhereYouStarted]

I think I just found a new favorite channel 😮

[@margaretwood152]

Great Job, Ian!; *_Thanks!_* ;-)

[@twogeeksdiscuss8741]

Loving these videos. Keep them coming.

[@davetaylor9966]

What a fantastic idea! Well researched and presented :)

[@galanoftaa6439]

I'd love to see the sources for this. It was stated in the Horus Heresy books that the Ultramarines lost almost half of the Marines engaged at the battle of Calth. I've never heard it mentioned anywhere that they lost 160 Astardes at Calth. The books also mentioned the Thousand Sons losing 90% at prospero which would put them at 1000.

[@onua2012sga]

The absolute stranglehold the traitors held over the A Tier really helps put into perspective how the Heresy so utterly devastated the Imperium. I feel a lot of fans fixate on how the Traitor faction harbored all of the “broken monster” Primarchs (Angron, Curze, Fulgrim) and suggest Horus had aligned himself with the weakest half of his brothers, but none of the legions in question are those in A Tier. Also, the Dark Angels remaining in a league of their own justifies how that legion went around destroying the Traitor’s power bases single-handedly with seeming impunity once the traitors had marched to Terra.

[@unaiestanconapelaez2526]

Yea sure but half of the traitor legions were impossible to control in any reliable way making the horus heresy a lot more fair that the number would say.

[@EAfirstlast]

It's not actually accurate. The traitor legions killed a large chunk of their own at isstvan III, not mentioned here, and the word bearers took significant casualties at calth, not mentioned here. I suspect all the other traitor legions had to pull an internal purge too on their own, but only isstvan is commented on.

[@Freedmoon44]

Tbf Fulgrim especially was definitly one of the strongest brothers BY FAR like dude as a duelist still took out 2 Primarchs and the only reason Dorn won is that the book was fanboying him because Fulgrim is a top tier duelist with regeneration to crush most opponents without trying, and Chaos made Fulgrims mind go down the gutter and talk too much. His legion small size and their fall to Slaanesh was the weak point, the primarch even broken was absurdly powerfull still

[@feudalfortyk]

Awesome video man

[@lagger7772]

I have to say I obeject to the ranking of the thousand sons pre-battle of prospero I think you under played how much psyker powers were a force multiplier also I think post battle of prospero the space wolfs where worse off because they did get mauled I did still love this video really puts the loyalist and traitor strength in perspective

[@hydriumetern7808]

Being space wizards is cool but you aren't going to smite your way out of being outgunned 2 or 3 to 1. On a small scale the variabilities between the legions matter, on a large scale it's just simply we have more bullets flying than they have bodies.

[@EAfirstlast]

@@hydriumetern7808 I mean, the thousand sons did smite their way out of being outgunned, they were just very very outgunned

[@mikemartell365]

Great video as always!

[@jtrain9926]

Always loved Blood Angels and Nightlords, both tragedies, one is like King Arthur, the other Macbeth.

[@gran9968]

Surprised at the rating on the World Eaters, for a band of crazed murderous barbarians with terrible organization, not the smartest of tactics and very few allies, they did REALLY FUCKING WELL! I think they really gained an edge over the others by accidentally getting an entire forge world (Sarum) to supply them a whole lot! Even still they'd probably still do rather well, Good job Angron...

[@Yurt_enthusiast7]

Tbf WE, much like orks, are tremendously good tacticians. Problem is that all their plans are focused on how to get stuck in😄 The fact that they sometimes succeed in a galaxy filled with the deadliest space guns are a testament to that

[@stormneedstroopers24]

yeah they definitely did batter than space wolves in the end, considering both legions used similer tactics.

[@EAfirstlast]

Eh, it's missing isstvan III and also all the legionaires Angron would get killed tween Isstvan and calth

[@castor3020]

They are massive super humans and there are over 100k of them, oh and they prefer fighting as one force. Quite hard to counter with tactics when they just keep coming at you.

[@EAfirstlast]

@@castor3020 It's not. The world eaters get themselves into stupid losing fights and are saved by grace of authorial fiat sending allies to bail them out pretty much constantly in the horus heresy series. I'd go so far to say that horus might have been better off without angron.

[@TobasscoJelly]

This was epic content. You sir have a new subscriber!

[@Powoga]

I thought Lion El'Jonson sending Luther and those loyal to him back to Caliban (and their subsequent betrayal) would affect the Dark Angel's strenght, but apparently there were only a couple of hundreds of them, and the Fallen only ever numbered about 30,000 marines. Huh.

[@necrometicsonofthelion]

The Dark Angels still operated even under Luthers control. At the battle of the allexis nebulae a heavy strike force saved the Wolves. They were one of many that were send out to guard the sectum. And they did not even know who was loyal and whonwas not by that time. (Wolf king is only a short story but its dtill s credible source). And 30 thousand Dark Angels need to count for the Legion no matter what loyalty.

[@eichler721]

Very cool and I love the numbers only list

[@mistabrrrly]

I’ve been listening to the first heretic for the last couple weeks and Lorgar had this planned out so welll

[@joenewkirk6136]

Awesome video. Loved it

[@daniellogue8365]

Love this idea :) I hope you do a new one for right before and right after Terra

[@celticfox]

I still love my Night Lords. Crap kicked out of them almost the whole way, constant in fighting, and the Primarch going even more crazy. But still the first damned Legion onto the walls during the Siege!

[@Kavewolf1989]

That was a good list. Still think the space wolves were atleast a b rank force initially and that the ultramarines were probably a b force still on the second list. For the most part i think you were spot on.

[@cacarey01]

Fantastic Video

[@ChopsTV]

**grumbles in space viking**

[@Greatkingrat88]

I'd be curious to see a post-heresy tier. As a White Scars fan, I'd point out that they'd probably have to move up by the end- their fleet was such a potent threat that the Emperor's Children and Death Guard both had to fully commit to hunting them down before they could move on terra, and when the Scars escaped they were the only legion to accomplish their objective on terra- securing that enormous space port. When the heresy was over, they were among the first to start hunting down the traitors.

[@tharkwarrior]

Thanks Ian for sharing your knowledge of HH lore with us. I am currently thinking I'll do my HH marines as White Scars or Salamanders.

[@americanshogun609]

It might have already been mentioned but the Night Lords had entire Forgeworlds at their command during the Crusade. Curze went rogue long before the heresy kicked off and had basically created his own standalone faction. They were also the sole Legion sent to fight and contain the Dark Angels which did not end up going in their favor but they still completely took the DA out of the rest of the Heresy in any meaningful way. That fact alone should at least bump them into a high B tier if not A. And they were the only traitor Legion to maintain control of significant territory in real space after the Siege of Terra. Their downfall was ultimately having an insane Primarch. Putting them in anything less than A tier is kinda nutty. I understand you can't have a comprehensive knowledge of every Legion when doing a tier list but the Thramas Crusade and post-heresy activities of the NL are fairly well known.

[@Cornerboy73]

Great video, thanks 😊

[@michaelsimpson3711]

Hey dude, I love your videos and I think with a video like this you’ll never please everyone. But I have to say I think your missing the meta narrative of the HH; the realisation that “oh shit, this haunted house ride is actually haunted”. Legion strength is the key metric under the imperial truth, but when the chaos shit hits the fan, the legions that think the world is science fiction will miss a step next to those who know they are in a science-fantasy world. Legions like the Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and critical the White Scars might not be strong conventionally, but under the new paradigm of gods and demons they would be the first to adapt

[@johnnybigbones4955]

I'm in full agreement with your methods. Numbers of Legionnaires is way more important than individual prowess, because at the end of the day they're all space marines. Adding naval assets absolutely makes sense, because that has a huge impact on how well they can fight (they are Space *Marines* after all, the ships are essential to their way of war). I'd only quibble Thousand Sons because an entire Legion of Psykers is a pretty potent asset but I guess in the grand scheme of things they're nowhere near the Ultramarines in terms of being able to project force, more like a weird little oddity legion that could pull some suprises in an equal fight. Looking at those numbers makes the 1000 marines in a chapter number look really quite silly though. Should be 10,000 at least I reckon.

[@EAfirstlast]

I think logistics trumps numbers :P. Or is why the numbers are what they are

[@joshuaforrest4135]

I think this is pretty accurate based on your criteria. Although I think you understated just how advanced the technology of the iron hands was. Ferrus was instrumental in the development of many weapons of war that were a big part of what the imperium had. If he weren’t killed at the dropsite massacre the loyalists would have just outgunned the traitors. You were definitely right in saying that’s one of the worst legions to have lose their primarch based on how they revered Ferrus Manus.

[@99Plastics]

so advanced dude got slapped out of existence lol

[@romeopainting5508]

hahahah! brutal intro! love it!

[@ashvarkul3215]

Really cool Tier list idea 👍

[@YvesSMASH]

Oh this is cool. When I clicked it I was expecting Ian to be ranking legions by how cool their lore was.

[@Yacovo]

Thanks for the video.

[@bradleyjones1515]

I adore the intro to this video. I have always been the very opposite of a power gamer always preferring the fluff

[@KelRiever]

Hilarious and awesome concept! :)

[@krimzonstriker7534]

I'd have pushed the Wordbearers to a B Tier, they committed 50,000 marines to Calth with most of them dying or trapped on Calth. A High ranking B Tier for sure but still a B Tier I think. Not to mention Corax gutted the Gal Vorbak at Istavaan.

[@ScilentDeath]

Finally somebody gets it right with the Dark Angels flying straight into the s tier... and they are the best s tier legion... fuck me they have plasma flamers and big choppy murder swords, they lop heads off...

[@christopherclayton5500]

That opening. 🤣 The Raven Guard may have been one of the weakest Legions at the start of the Heresy, but they were still one of the best. 😎 They started with about 4000 and ended with about 4000.

[@ArbitorIan]

More than 4000, if you count all the spare arms, legs and heads their replacement recruits had!

[@christopherclayton5500]

@@ArbitorIan Did they? I thought their morphological deviations were primarily limited to their mandibles and epidermal growths. :3c I should really read those stories myself sometime, though. Was it Deliverance Lost for that one? 🤔 I seem to recall you having a low opinion of that book, unfortunately.

[@gobihoukou1]

@@christopherclayton5500 On the other side, I consider those books to be among the best in heresy series... and yes, Deliverance lost is where Raptor project starts, but its ending is shown in Corax: Nevermore - I believe it is book 40 in the series. Unfortunately, raptors themselves are shown to develop pretty serious mutations with passing time, accompanied by mental breakdown before the end.