Hour 25 - Jack Kirby interview, 13 April 1990

Jack Kirby radio appearance on Hour 25 with J. Michael Straczynski and Larry DiTillio from April 1990.
Thanks to Kenn Thomas for sending the recording to the Kirby Museum.

[@lordfunkbottom9541]

if we truly lived in a civilized world this man would be universally revered as one of the great writers of the 20th century

[@gmosphere]

And artists

[@johnminehan1148]

@@gmosphere He was a much better artist and creator than he would have been a crocked politician. What he did is revered, unfortunately it isn't universally associated with him.

[@jobmartin9561]

Jack Kirby is a treasure for humanity.

[@alexh4319]

1:10:27 "Short men like big women"--Jack Kirby

[@WisdomTooth1987]

the part where he said " i never learn how to draw, i just drew" was mind blowing for me.I also like how introspective and multi dimensional he is.

[@jackbauer4186]

If you've ever been around someone who is truly artistic, they do the same thing. They begin drawing as children and no one every taught them a thing, yet they were leaps and bounds better than everyone else.

[@mightybryan1033]

That is what a true artist is I was never good in art cause I was always trying to replicate instead of create

[@wesmo_]

"Kirby is to comics what Louis Armstrong is to jazz," said Greg Theakston

[@toyhunter2903]

Kirby is to comics what Elvis Presley is to Rock and Roll.

[@andrewgrant2990]

This was so great to hear! Thanks for posting this & keeping the Legend alive! His artwork is by far superior than anything these days & this man deserved so much better than he got!

[@pulsarstargrave256]

The interviewer had enough respect for Jack not to point out to him that the woman lifting the car story came from the 1st Hulk T.V. movie! Or remind Jack that he himself once said the reason he left Fleischer was because the studio had moved to Florida and his mother didn't want him to go.Jack wasn't lying, it was just his notorious and self-admitted, "...ever failing memory"! I admit that I don't know the entire story but Martin Goodman wanted another monster hero created. Some say it was because he noticed that a Frankenstein monster model kit was a good seller; Stan has said Frankenstein was on his mind when HE came up with the idea but personally, I think the popularity of The Thing in the Fantastic Four is what did it; much like how the popularity of Johnny Storm (the Human Torch) in the same comic eventually led to Spider-Man! In my opinion, Jack was a genius and many people like that are constantly thinking of ideas, scrapping them or re-organizing them on the fly! It's really quite remarkable but it makes it tough to follow them, that's why multiple interviews and accounts from friends who knew them is essential.

[@Sonic2332]

No, there are reports of real life women lifting up cars to save loved ones.

[@ihategoogle6066]

If they ever make a movie on this man's life, I hope they include the nahtzees challenging him to a fight

[@alternity28]

That would be a great opening scene to introduce Mr. Kirby in the movie!

[@johnminehan1148]

What a talent. The man knew how to tell stories.

[@Christianflorescordova]

Absolutely an incomparable creative genius, a true original of extraordinary vision, talent and inspiration. He deserves way way more credit.

[@Christianflorescordova]

THE KING!!!!

[@monstersandmadonnas3103]

Jack Kirby - It Is Good to Be The King

[@Saginaw72]

What a missed opportunity! This interview is depressing for all the questions that weren't asked. They tried, but it fell well short of what it could have been. Loved hearing Jack discuss his inspirations, background, and the business, but it seems the two interviewers were struggling at times to find a question to ask. I wished they had prepared better. I wanted to know who his favorite inker was, how did he come up with the "Kirby Crackle", how did he develop his forced perspectives, etc. Just so many things I wanted to know.

[@wtrollkin]

In fairness this was 30+ years ago! And he was in great health at the time.

[@kittendiotima4212]

According to his one time assistant & lifelong friend Mark Evanier, Jack didn’t look at the finished work. Once he finished drawing an issue, he was done with it, bc his prodigious imagination was onto the next story. He couldn’t look back, bc his mind was already moving forward. So he didn’t really care about who inked him, he thought the notion that an inker could negatively or even positively effect his pencils was somewhat insulting to his work. Check out Evanier’s introductions to vol 1-4 of his 4th World books that DC put out in the early 2000s where he talks about how Jack regarded inkers. Especially in vol 1 & 2. I believe those intros are also included in the 4th World Omnibus, & the DC Absolute 4th World vol 1 & 2

[@angelmanfredy]

Seems like such a sweet man. An absolute legend and his art and characters will live on forever. Amazing that he met Jack Dempsey as well! Another hero of mine.

[@stevenlennon12]

stan lees voice was undeniable in the comics. Kirby was no stan lee when it came to writing the comics. no matter who plotted it stan lees voice was there making it uniquely marvel. as far as visuals go kirby and ditko were unmatched

[@georgeliquor1236]

Kirby also co-plotted though. The Silver Surfer for example is purely a Kirby creation.

[@AliFareedMC]

Kirby was a better writer

[@brianchidester3334]

Agreed. The "bad writer Kirby" is a total myth. I also thought "New Gods" and "Forever People" were a bit wonky, writing-wise, when I first read them. Now I consider them way more honest and straightforward while the Lee/Kirby writing is almost over-the-top by comparison. The Fourth World has aged incredibly well. Kirby also had a great vocabulary for such a brash-speaking guy.

[@xlrouge]

That's been sooooooooooo helpful and inspiring.....Love Jack Kirby... Thanks for posting....Thanks Jack

[@Izzyreal007]

This man, touched my heart and sparks the fire in my imagination. A truly great person and a real Amercian hero.

[@toddtheref]

I wish I had appreciated Jack more in my younger years. I now understand what a true giant Jack Kirby was, and what a truly decent man he was. I have bought every DC Jack Kirby hardcover omnibus there is, and love the fact that I get to rediscover the genius that was Jack. King Kirby!

[@stevenlennon12]

i believe marvel as we know it would not exist without stan lee. kirby would probably have been at DC as they would have been the only major company in existence.

[@AliFareedMC]

It wouldn't exist without Jack Kirby, Stan Lee was working at Timely and Atlas before Jack Kirby teamed up with him, he had a chance to create marvel with Joe Maneely but he didn't, when jack kirby went back to Atlas in 1958 he Kickstarted Marvel Age of Comics

[@dwaynedumas865]

"Jack kirby...wow!!!"

[@landyalmond7742]

Now don't get me wrong. Stan did a lot of hard work to keep Marvel going. But Jack did more. I've read that the day Jack started drawing the Fantastic Four that the office furniture was being moved out. They were getting ready to shut down... but they had enough time. And because Kirby was so fast it made it to the newsstands in time and sold out instantly. What was his name... Martin Goodman, I believe, was the big boss and since he brought up the idea of a super hero team to Stan and it sold so well it bought time. But it was Jack with his speed...and phenomenal talent that made it great. I could go on and on about what the King did but true believers know. So I'll shut up now....NUFF SAID

[@ComicBookSyndicate]

This is a priceless interview. Thanks for posting! I do wonder about the accuracy of Kirby's memory of Spider-Man. I understand that he designed an early version of the character who wore boots and shot webs out of a gun, but I doubt he had influence over the portrayal of Peter Parker.

[@geozipper]

The basic idea for Spider-Man was hashed out between Lee/Kirby but when Lee brought in Steve Ditko to ink those five pages, Ditko pointed out to him that's it's a retread of a failed comic for Archie, that Kirby/Simon worked on, called The Fly. While Lee always claimed it was because Kirby made him "too heroic" looking that he gave the book to Steve Ditko, he nevertheless used Kirby's "heroic-looking" character for the cover of the comic. It stands to reason that Lee's claim was simply a nice way of avoiding the details of what transpired & perhaps to avoid a lawsuit from another company (if he went ahead & used the character Kirby gave him). After all, Lee was very familiar with Kirby's style. If he didn't want Spider-Man to be 'heroic looking' then why give it to Kirby at all ? In any case, the differences between Kirby's handling of Spider-Man & Ditko's revision, is so contrasting, that it is absurd to claim that the character we know today as Spider-Man bears any resemblance to the Spider character Kirby created for Stan Lee. The costume is different. He used a gun to shoot his webs. Peter Parker was disliked by his dad. The "teen hero" Lee envisioned wasn't even a true teen hero in Kirby's rendition: he had a teen Parker turn into an adult Spider-Man (like the Golden Age Captain Marvel's "shazam!" - - there is nothing revolutionary about that !!) through the use of a magic ring. His costume was also the standard fare that Kirby relied on (one of his tropes) bearing similarities to Captain America's (whom you forgot to mention was created by Kirby/Simon in the 1940's, having nothing to do with Lee or Marvel Comics, who nevertheless gained the rights to the character). If anyone wishes to know more about the creation of Spider-Man & who was the true creator of the character & the true story writer for his comics, check out my essay: "The Creation of Spider-Man" at: www.writerscafe.org/writing/Sienzant/1954464/ If anyone wishes to follow along with pictures, you need to go to the Facebook page called Vision Angles. You'll need to scroll down until you see the very first images of Marvel Comics, I have three different sets of pics & notes/captions for each one so you understand what you're seeing & how it relates to the text. Thanks ! :-) Here's an excerpt from the above essay, how I wrote of the fateful meeting between Lee/Ditko that turned Spider-Man into the successful character we know: Steve Ditko was summoned into the offices on a certain day in 1962 to meet with his editor Stan Lee. Stan wanted him to ink over Kirby’s pencils. Ditko was a great inker and somehow when he inked Kirby he seemed to bring out something subtle in Jack’s style, giving the characters ‘weight’ the way Dick Ayers did, but his embellishments had a clean, light and elegant line that were almost Disneyesque. Lee handed him a few pages of Kirby’s pencils and asked, “What do you think of this?” Ditko was seeing the first 5 pages of the Kirby origin story for Spider-Man. It showed Parker’s home life as being a place of little solace. In Kirby’s depiction, Peter Parker’s uncle was a retired police captain, more like a General Ross type in the Hulk saga, belittling the boy, constantly down on him. Furthermore, Jack had teen Parker use a magic ring to transform himself into an adult Spider-Man. The last page showed teen Parker entering a neighbor’s house, where a scientific experiment was going on. When Ditko was done, he accessed it unerringly. “Well, it’s a retread of the Fly.” Stan was puzzled. “The Fly ?” “It’s something Jack cooked up with his pal Joe Simon a few years ago for Archie Comics.” “I never heard of it.” Ditko said, “There you go,” as if to prove his point. Stan sighed. He certainly didn’t want his latest creation given the second-rate handling Kirby was giving it. Using a plotline from a failed comic wasn’t an auspicious beginning for Spider-Man. He said to Steve, “Well, see what you can do with it.” (Editor’s Note: the aforementioned interaction was a dramatized retelling of what actually occurred, based on real life recollections of Steve Ditko. ~ Truthteller Tone, lol) Ditko was given little more than the basic synopsis: the protagonist is a bookworm teen who gains his spider powers through a freak accident when a radioactive spider bites him.

[@Mitsuraga]

Yeah, I didn't care for him explaining the "Great power, great responsibility" line as if he wrote it.

[@lukeskywalker6809]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

[@lukeskywalker6809]

Tall tale by Kirby. The Amazing Spider-Man as we know it was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko.

[@mindandbody7971]

You wonder about the accuracy of his memory when he was reading about Nikola Tesla and physics and recalled that. hm. ok.

[@williamibanez394]

Amazing how prescient Kirby's comics were. I was re reading his New Gods stuff, and it occurred to me that our Iphones are pretty much a Mother Box.

[@themajipoorchronicles7541]

Kirby gets ideas reading about Tesla whilst Stan Lee once claimed he created Spiderman when he saw a spider on a wall one day and he wondered "why not a spiderman?" LOL.

[@comicbookguy6361]

Lol ! 😂

[@justheart1956]

Beautifully stated. Stanley was an amazing showman and editor. Kirby, Simon, Roz, and Ditko... read what they all and Lee did independent of each and open your eyes to the truth..

[@salcho1260]

I don’t want to be Spiderman, Ironman or Thor! I want to be, like Jack Kirby!

[@shocksquad8608]

I absolutely love Kirby. Great interview. The guy talking about Batman and the Punisher sheesh. Of all the questions to ask and he asked that crap.

[@fatherted79]

His accent is fascinating to me

[@octopibingo]

The story of Darkseid (14:00 - 16:00) and the relationship to his son seems very similar to Darth Vader's relationship to his son, Luke Skywalker. One wonders is Lucas read the comic, debuting in 1971. But we all steal. Star Wars is a basic cowboy/swashbuckler, or western/pirate story.

[@jharekcarnelian]

Darth Vader's look is definitely inspired by Dr. Doom, Lucas has himself commented on that I believe.

[@geozipper]

There are more similarities. It's obvious to me that Lucas was 'borrowing' from Kirby's work at DC. The '"force" for example. Darkseid & the "Dark Side" in Star Wars. Doom/Darkseid had a similar look that became Darth Vader. Kirby actually did Lucas one better: not only is the "good guy" the son of the "bad guy" but the "bad guy" is also the son of the "good guy" if I remember correctly in Kirby's Apokalypse books. It was basically a swap.

[@jharekcarnelian]

Yes, also Kirby had a crazed imagination Lucas could never come close to that. Lucas freely admits Vader is based to a certain extent on Doom.

[@gmosphere]

I think lucas also swiped the Force from Kirby's concept of the "The Source"

[@MikeGodzilla667]

That part where he couldn't name one female comics creator (and even the hosts couldn't recall Walt and Louise Simonson) was so embarrassing hahaha. The fact he could only remember Marie Severin's first name was so telling too. Man was from a different time. This is a great interview.

[@werewolfbymoonknight7613]

stan had no thunder to steal marvel lost both kirby and ditko because of gready Stan stan came up with the title spiderman but thats where it stopped stan doesnt know the truth himself anymore he said in an interview "i remember the time WE create the red skull" red skull's first appearance was in 1941 jack wrote and drew everything stans simple mind couldnt comprehend was jack was coming up with. he had to research source material from kirby i.e norse mythology marvel turned down his new gods idea. one of his first things at dc was the new gods loved stan as a child respect jack kirby as an adult

[@Roper122]

Tyler Burry Still more complicated than that... I respect both.

[@geozipper]

Werewolf is basically correct. Stan Lee gave three different stories, at three different times, on how he 'created' Spider-Man. But I won't say "greedy Stan" lost his top two artists by treating them badly. It was his employer, Martin Goodman. Goodman never wanted to compensate anyone for their creations. All the artists were freelancers, meaning he paid them for that job of drawing a comic book, but he owned the characters to do as he pleased. Thus, when the Merry Marvel Marching Society began selling all kinds of stuff with these characters plastered all over them, and Kirby/Ditko were promised by Goodman to get some kind of royalties for that, as well as the move into Saturday morning cartoons using the panels from the original comic books (by Kirby/Ditko), of course they left after seeing they had no legal basis to pursue any money - - it was basically a verbal, gentlemen's agreement. Kirby at least should have known better. It was at the root of his leaving Timely Comics (& losing his creation of Captain America to Goodman) in the 1940s. He should have known Goodman wouldn't play fair.

[@peace8381]

There are many Red Skulls (George Maxon and Johann Schmidt) The first Red Skull (George Maxon) was created in Captain America Comics # 1 in the story "The Riddle of the Red Skull". Created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. Then reappeared in Captain America Comics # 3 in the story "The Return of the Red Skull" Again written and drawn by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. Stan Lee started to write in that comic # 3 in a 1 story page called "Traitor's Revenge" Ironic isn't it? :D Anyway Another Red Skull (Johan Schmidt) appeared in Captain America Comics # 7, again created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. WTF with Stan Lee afirmations?

[@johnathanamber7617]

J. Michael Staczynski later went on to create Babylon 5.

[@johnathanamber7617]

He did not disappear.

[@garybraidwood5539]

Is the one above them all

[@57snador]

Wonder what ever happened to that J. Michael Straczynski guy?

[@THEDOCDOR]

is there a copy of Hour 25 with Jack Kirby, Frank Miller, Steve Gerber and Mark Evanier? Thanks.

[@Mitsuraga]

Okay, now, look. I recognise that Jack Kirby was not given nearly enough credit for his character creation and storytelling proficiency, and I am aware that he had a hand in the creation of Spider-Man. But to hear him claiming Spider-Man as his creation, without so much as a mention of Steve Ditko, just feels wrong and makes me question how well Jack remembers all this, and how much is embellishment.

[@peace8381]

You speak as if you were there in the moment of the creation of Spider-Man. Jack is telling his version. Stan Lee and Steve Ditko had their versions too. Only 3 men knew what happened there, and the 3 are already dead. We will never know the truth. We assume something but it's doesn't mean it's the truth.

[@AliFareedMC]

@@peace8381 Jim Shooter saw Jack Kirby's 6 pages, there is definitely Jack Kirby influence in it, Ditko saw them and he compared to the Fly before changing it, it is like Coal Tiger and Black Panther all over again, also you using your logic we could dismiss entire history of marvel because people who are involved are dead now

[@justheart1956]

Either way, we definitely deserve a long-awaited Silver Spider issue or graphic novel. With Simon, Kirby, and Beck's work in one curated form..

[@americanslime]

Ouch. He really hated Stan. But I love how he was too classy to actually say it.

[@davidlindsay9564]

@Make Me Believe stan lee was not a great writer. He was a hack. He was a good promoter.

[@RogerFusselman]

It might be he wanted to be measured in the moment. I doubt it was full-on hatred for Stan Lee. He wasn't that sort of guy, even though he was likely dealt innumerable injustices by Marvel.

[@joseluisgomezdecena]

@Make Me Believe stan was a con man you naive person you0

[@joseluisgomezdecena]

@@RogerFusselman "likely?" Know your history before formulating an opinion. ...really you knew Jack enough to say he didn't hate Stan? Really. Presumptious person you

[@joseluisgomezdecena]

@Make Me Believe stan sold kirbys style as his own in the book "how to draw the marvel way" ....that's his talent

[@Artisan1979]

1:11:19 Marie Severin! She drew the hulk for a while!

[@bookhouse70]

Poor old Jack at 1:07:35 forgot that he created Etrigan the Demon.

[@PaulFagundes]

I love Kirby’s genuineness in this interview. I felt inspired by his obvious love for storytelling and the plight of humanity. His art and creativity is incomparable, as is his story of how he came to be the King! But to dismiss Stan Lee so outright as such a major contributor to his work, and to the promotion of it to a greater audience, left me with a bad taste at the end of the podcast.

[@pulsarstargrave256]

I don't know where the commentator got the idea that Bucky Barnes was killed off because a lot of people died in WW2 or whatever he said. From what I've read, Stan Lee just plain didn't like kid sidekicks so it was his idea to kill off Bucky!

[@amaxamon]

He wrote a show called "Captain Power" that tied into a toy. Then he disappeared...

[@francozambrano4980]

Dangerus nationalism when i was younguer wao,

[@RedTailedSmeargle]

Very prescient, even today -Jack loved big, strong girls. He was one of us. -Jack believed in gender equality and worlds with female artists in writers even in the early days. Suck on it chuds. -Believed computers will be important to us in the future (they are) and thought about how scary and interesting the idea of ai art is (it is, especially now). Thinks positively of it, but still thinks we'll need artists (and he's damn right). - Believed that when we're talking about bad people (such as demons), we also talk about ourselves, the worst we've done, etc. So self introspection and self-respect is important. - Hated the shit out of Stan Lee. Which: fair, with how he was treated by Marvel. Amazing man. Thanks for Eveything, Jack.

[@theragoooverlord5021]

I really don't think he was just like you Mr they them

[@DrLynch2009]

He build a space station during the mid 90's. ;)

[@KiCreativeStudioJP]

38:25 This exact scenario was referenced in the original Incredible Hulk TV pilot from 1977. Did Jack Kirby give some input to the show? Or did Stan recount Jack's anecdote the the TV producers?

[@acmcdesign]

Kirby actually appeared on one episode.

[@julianbrionesiii1340]

did kirby do the amazing fantasy 15 cover ? did he draw that cover ?

[@acmcdesign]

Yes. There is also a Ditko version than wasn’t used, but you can find it online somewhere.

[@mcraystudios]

Some serious revision taking place here. Poor Jack. He is obviously bitter. I wish Jack wouldn't take credit for Spider-man. Why try to steal Stan Lee and Steve Ditko's thunder. Jack was replaced by Ditko who created the image of Spider-man. Bless your heart Jack.

[@Sonic2332]

Jack created the original design, powers, and back story for a spider themed character. It was an unfinished comic he was working on with Joe Simon. The character's name was Peter Par (Not Parker, but close.). A meek and dorky teenaged boy who got picked on by bullies and had a crush on a girl. What Stan and Steve did was re-create the character. So I think it's valid to say that Jack was one of the co-creators of Spider-Man. Yes, he's either mixing things up here, or not telling the whole truth, but he came up with other bug themed characters like Ant-Man and the Fly (who could walk up walls), and the unfinished superhero, the Silver Spider... so it wouldn't be a surprise. He also drew the first part of Amazing Fantasy #15, which consists of Spidey's back story. The back story he conceived of in the first place. He also drew Ditko's new costume for the issue which is what was certainly getting him confused. Both Kirby and Lee have claimed to be the sole creator of the character. Neither are right. Ditko has stated that they where all the co-creators of Spider-Man. He also said that he doesn't know where exactly the character comes from. My money is from Kirby and possibly help from Joe Simon.

[@yragcom1]

Rabbit Ronin Exactly. The Kirby / Simon creation was called the "Silver Spider", way before Spider Man.

[@mcraystudios]

***** Stan Lee created Spider-man concept and asked Kirby to design the character, but it wasn't effective. Kirby's Spider-man looked like Captain America. So, Lee asked Ditko to design and draw the character. It was a hit.

[@Seras99]

MemphoWrasslin1 I thought the character was based on a 1950s clothing mask?

[@vszasz]

What happened to the boxes of pulp magazines in Jack's garage?

[@afonsolucas2219]

Probably with his family. Maybe they kept it. Maybe they gave it away. Maybe they threw it out.

[@masterd_flabz7043]

Listening to Jack Kirby's non answers on questions by the callers, he would make a great corrupt politician

[@BigTimeAndy]

naaah that is not true...

[@nikomatallana4102]

38:26

[@stevenlennon12]

i guess Lee and Ditko didnt didnt do anything.

[@mcraystudios]

I love Jack, but he didn't recreate Spider-man at all. He is a Stan Lee creation, later with the help of Steve Ditko. Nor did Jack create the Hulk alone. Stan Lee created the Hulk. Stan said the Hulk was a combination of his love of Frankenstein and the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde. Now Captain America was a Jack Kirby and Joe Simon creation. Shame on these folks for giving an untruthful impression of Jack Kirby's place in Comics history. Jack created the New Gods, Darkseid, Challengers of the Unknown, Captain America, etc, etc, he doesn't have to steal Stan Lee's thunder.

[@atenakehnaton3965]

Actually there is plenty of evidence that a large portion of what Spiderman is came from Kirby. Kirby was initially tapped to work out a Spiderman story. Stan Lee wasn't thrilled, thought it was too similar to other Marvel properties and then passed everything on to Ditko and Ditko retooled Kirby's work. Ditko created most of what became Spiderman, Kirby second, and all Stan Lee did was come up with a name. That is according to Ditko himself. He actually drew up what Kirby's Spiderman looked liked, sort a Captain America clone with a web-gun in a holster on his side.

[@atenakehnaton3965]

***** Yeah I'm actually familiar with that, but that is hard to prove. As far as I know there is only circumstantial evidence to back that up. Then to boot the initial concept is suppose to be based on a character Simmon and Kirby created called The Fly, Lee says it was inspired by the pulp character The Spider. Since Spiderman has so much in common with Kirby's The Fly and Ditko backs up the idea Kirby created the initial story we at least know this much to be true from both a detailed eye witness account and circumstantial evidence. So did Kirby come up with the name too ? Probably, but I don't see how that can be proven. Personally I'm sure it's true, but with the short story at the very least you have Ditko backing it up in detail.

[@atenakehnaton3965]

***** .....WHAT?!?!?!?! Is this on the internet? I had no idea. Do you know which issue? I want to buy it.

[@atenakehnaton3965]

***** I looked into it, it might be issue 66 but I can't tell if they're just comparing the way Ditko and Kirby drew Spiderman after the Ditko design or if they're comparing their initial concepts.

[@geozipper]

No. You have the essence of what transpired but not really. It wasn't too similar to Marvel properties - - it was too similar to The Fly, a failed character for Archie drawn by Kirby. Lee probably didn't want to get sued. KIRBY DID NOT CREATE SPIDER-MAN WE KNOW & LOVE TODAY ! Read my essay on the creation of Spider-Man to learn more: www.writerscafe.org/writing/Sienzant/1954464/