How 2D Mario lost its LEVEL TIMER. :(

[@lovelydumpling]

admittedly I wasn't big on the timer in 3D world. The levels were pretty and I just wanted to vibe in them sometimes but the timer meant i couldn't stop to smell the roses.

[@frogvibesgames]

This is totally valid! I too enjoy hanging around in games like that. Partly why we made Here Comes Niko. On the other hand, the devs might've also seen that, similar to a rose, it's level's beauty fades over time. Meaning that if you stand around for too long, the seams will start to show. Though I'm glad Bowsers Fury is there for us to take it at our own pace.

[@DryPaperHammerBro]

​@@frogvibesgamesWill your game run on Linux?

[@frogvibesgames]

@DryPaperHammerBro It runs absolutely perfectly on Steam Deck. Haven't tried it on other linux machines, but it might work with something like proton.

[@orangepinecone]

really interesting topic. ive always disliked timers when looking for star coins or even just because it gives you less time to mess around (especially in multiplayer with friends) but i do also really like the rush that comes from having to complete the level within 100 seconds all of the sudden, full sprinting and jumping over enemies, or in ghost levels frantically checking every door to hopefully find the one that saves you in time. its fun! also 8:33 was hilarious lmao

[@frogvibesgames]

I definitely get that! I also think it's fun to just mess around. But on the flipside, being timed makes those moments more precious. And messing around is even more fun when one of the players is getting more and more concerned about the time, while the rest is goofing on.

[@teabow.]

One of my biggest issues with Mario Maker is that there's no option to turn off the timer

[@jamespierce9815]

I agree with this because I feel like said feature would benefit the kind of levels I’d create. However, I’ve also recently had the thought that maybe there’s a reason for this? Maybe it’s to prevent specific troll levels trapping a player in a situation where the player can’t win, but the player doesn’t know that? SMM could be someone’s first game, but I dunno. As cool some troll levels can be, I hate running into them for how much they bog down the experience. Just my 2 cents. I’m still for giving players the option to cut the timer.

[@coralcat5706]

I believe it's so there aren't levels where you wait multiple hours for a timer to expire.

[@semario2606]

One popular theory was that they removed the timer was removed ro encourage players to take their time and explore the levels. I feel that if they removed the timer to encourage more exploration, they should have included more areas and secrets that make exploring actually worth it. I am pretty sure there are only three sub areas in the entire game that don't have a collectible, and two of them are literally in the first level. The game does have some cool secrets, like the three 1-ups in the Shining Falls Special World Stage, but I wish the game better took advantage of the fact there is no timer with more interesting secrets other than the repetitive player specific blocks. Although in the game files considering tye functionality uses to be there makes it seem that levels were designed with a timer in mind which probably explains why.

[@frogvibesgames]

This is interesting! It's true that there isn't enough to explore though. There we're few ghost housy mystery levels where the endless time was useful. Though walking around in circles endlessly can also be a bit much.

[@ddnava96]

One special note to 3D World is that a couple levels had a very short timer as a challenge and you had to run and grab multiple clocks in your way to the goal as it was always only a few seconds away from killing you

[@frogvibesgames]

These levels are very fun! Completely forgot to mention them. Another other thing I forgot to mention is that 3D World often gives clocks when players go on hidden side paths. There it makes up for the extra time the side path takes.

[@Kaumi420]

I adore the fact daisy is playable as a main character. Up until she's always been relegated to the side lines or side series. I really do hope they continue to allow other characters from the series to join in main series titles. I have always been mixed on how I feel about timers or scores. it's in the same zone as achievements for me. I'm unsure how I feel about them all. I know a few devs who can't really hide secrets anymore in titles because it has to be tied to an achievement so to speak. There are times I prefer them being in game more than "shouting" them existing on platforms so to speak.

[@PuffyBuffy25]

In all fairness, she's playable Super Mario Run which is considered a mainline entry. I do definitely agree though.

[@Simchen]

That's why I had to pick Daisy 99% of the time to play Wonder :D

[@frogvibesgames]

Daisy is definitely a great addition. She balances out the cast nicely. Achievements can for sure be a bit intrusive. I think it's definitely more fun to see them beforehand to continuously try and get them. As supposed to them just being another pop-up.

[@kieranp8046]

Love this editing style! I always assumed the timer was just a bygone relic of the old arcade designs, but it's quite interesting to think about the actual game design ramifications you bring up in this video.

[@frogvibesgames]

Me too! Until I started looking into it more. I think the idea for this video came when we were doing a Game Club in our Discord, with the topic being Mario 3D World & Mario 3D Land. This month's topic is Tunic, which is interesting in a whole other way.

[@MBulteau]

I've played every mario platformer since the 1985 super mario bros, and up until wonder came out, none could surpass super mario bros 3 for me. I think wonder did something first and foremost so stylistically and aesthetically different that makes its charm undeniable. Then, under this new coat of paint is what you've observed: the removal of the score and the timer (long overdue, imo). I don't think the focus on challenges is a problem at all. You noted that the devs were cutting on unnecessary things, and I think that's its second biggest strength after its looks and charm. As I played it, I never felt anything was missing, because every level wanted to explore one particular ability, concept, or technique for just the right amount of time before moving on to something else. And that "time" needed only be dictated by your curiosity and the spatial length of the level itself. P. S: If anything, my only gripe was the simplicity of the final boss.

[@frogvibesgames]

Interesting! Wonder is doing a lot of amazing stuff for sure. The series was long overdue for a shake up like this. Maybe I should've just played it single player so I could appreciate it better. The local multiplayer is essentially broken at at least one spot in every level. 😞

[@a.lollipop]

what do you mean its broken? ive been playing it just fine with my brothers and its been a ton of fun, didnt really feel much different from playing the other mario games in multiplayer in that aspect ​@@frogvibesgames

[@rzbOwO]

Absolutely loving the character expressions you got for your character in this video! So many cute and silly faces hahahah Also, your audio design for these is great, the little sounds when you're animating letters on screen and the mario wonder theme remixed!! fantastic stuff :3 It truly is wonderful...

[@frogvibesgames]

Thank you! I do my best. Trying to refine my style with this one.

[@FlamezOfGamez]

The sad reality is that although adding a score (or rank) system to a game gives players a new way to engage with the game, if it’s just sorta slapped on to an experience, then it’s often not actually engaging to pursue. If you want a good score in the original Super Mario Bros., then you find a part in a level that gets you a 1-Up each time you play it, go through that section collecting points, die, and reset. You can try and optimally pick up points throughout the rest of your playthrough, sure, but at a certain point, your only option is to just grind out unlimited points on a repetitive task because it is simply the only way to proceed. And, like, there’s definitely people out there for whom doing that task feels rewarding enough to brag about that they go and do it. But, like, obviously pursuing something like that is irrelevant to most players. In games like Super Mario World or New Super Mario Bros., where you can replay levels indefinitely, then the score becomes crazy irrelevant. Even if the game had no exploits to get high scores, you could just replay any level indefinitely to increment your score. And, like, why would anyone care that you did that? Super Mario 3D World tried something different, where each level kept track of its own high score, as well as your best time, rather than the score keeping track of every point you’ve ever gotten across the entire game. This is definitely a much better idea, since it presents players with multiple dimensions of a level to optimize (in addition to the collectibles already included in each level), and lets players focus in just on levels that they actually want to try and optimize (rather than one point exploit ruining the experience of going for points for the entire game). Plus, the score works as a fun minigame for multiplayer, where the game essentially presents you with a competition to contribute the most to your team in order to get the crown, which may or may not lead to sabotage, depending on if your group would find such a thing fun. Now, the problem with score in 3D World is that it still runs with issues as to what the best exploits are to get a high score. And it definitely requires multiplayer, so can collect coins and kill enemies more efficiently with more players, you can have players repeatedly get coins using the Gold Cat powerups, and three additional players at the top of the flagpole (plus the crown) is gonna get you an extra 35,000 points for free, which definitely exceeds any points you get from going fast. So this kinda just ruins the score system, because playing with anything less than the maximum player count means you can’t play optimally, so why even bother if you’re just playing by yourself? No gameplay progress is ever gated behind the score, so may as well just focus on getting good times instead, which is a factor you can actually optimize in single player. And hey, speedrunning is popular. If you’re going to incentivize players to go for good times on levels, then why include an integer countdown of schmeconds for levels when you could just include a timer that counts up, and which has a decimal component, like Celeste? That’s the sort of timer that actually drives complete gameplay optimization due to its precision. And hey, that’s what Wonder does for Wiggler chases and enemy gauntlets, levels which already reward you with collectibles for going fast (although once again, you’re out of luck if you’re attempting to get good times in an enemy gauntlet without multiplayer). Now, unfortunately, the lack of level timers for every level means you do have to time levels yourself if you’re attempting good in-level times for non-timer levels, rather than being able to rely on the countdown clock. But the ability to turn a gameplay factor which the game itself keeps no record of into a competition isn’t exactly the game providing you with another dimension of gameplay. People try to speedrun levels or other gameplay whether the game tries to incentivize it or not. Adding a countdown clock to a game focused on exploring levels for secrets doesn’t incentivize this speedrun approach to the game, a timer system for levels does. If you’re gonna do it, do it right, or don’t do it at all. For the record, I’m not ignoring the impact that timers have on player gameplay decisions even when they’re not going for a good time. Short timers give a fun frenetic feel to certain levels, and challenges levels sometimes give you incredibly short time limits, with countdown clocks throughout the level to give a nice mix of fast play with grabbing collectibles. And New Super Luigi U completely embodies the idea of keeping players on their toes by constantly stressing you out with short level timers. But since the majority of other levels aren’t meant to be played that way, and in fact are meant to be throughly combed through for secrets, then I’m not sure what adding a timer system to both players out *eventually* really adds. And while the increased music speed once time is growing short is definitely a memorable gameplay experience, if that’s the only thing in the game to motivate players to move quickly, then that’s a problem, because moving quickly should just inherently feel good to do. And guess what, it does feel good to do in Super Mario Wonder, even without a timer, imagine that! Finally, I want to make a note of the badge system. While the various challenge badges (Jet Run, Spring Feet, Invisibility) do indeed provide players to methods optionally challenge themselves to play levels in new and unique ways, the simple fact is that the Jet Run would obviously be the best way to approach a lot of levels in the game in order to get a fast time, while also being inherently uncontrollable. So would that really be what we want? For everyone’s best level times to be marked, but half the levels requiring you jostle around with Jet Run? Or would we simply prefer if players made there own fun and simply tried to beat levels with Jet Run if that’s what they wanted to challenge themselves to do? Now, the ultimate workaround to all this (once you remove unfun point exploits) is to create even more specific speedrun categories for levels. Making separate charts for every level with every badge! Of course, now there’s a new problem, which is that there’s now so many charts that the scale of going for good times now drives players away from actually engaging with the system. It’s all just for bragging rights anyway, so who cares if I did well in a level with the Timer High Jump badge that I didn’t use? If this isn’t where the fun in the game lies, then why try and incentivize it? For me, my breaking point with the sort of design I just described came in Kirby: Star Allies, where the Guest Star mode (where you play through a truncated version of the game using a single ability the whole time) provides your best times for all 37 Copy Abilities and Dream Friends, in both single-player and multiplayer, as well as your best times for each of those for each of the six segments of the playthrough. Likewise, it kept track of your best times and scores in The Ultimate Showdown, the boss rush mode of the game, for every Copy Ability and Dream Friend. And you know, I’m happy that the game provided this options for the players who want to optimize their times. But there’s no chance I’m spending the ~40 minutes per run per character to try and optimize good speedrun times over and over and over again, that just sounds miserable. I’m sure it sounds fun to someone out there, but I’m sure most people were content to just play through the mode once, maybe a few times at most if they liked a certain Copy Ability or knew that some Dream Friends have a few unique level segments compared to the other characters.

[@frogvibesgames]

@@FlamezOfGamez Interesting! With games that allow for more and more ways to play it, there is the factor that it can obscure the intended way to play. Until eventually there's no intention, and players are left to wonder how they're supposed to have fun. It's an intricate balance I feel.

[@SuperDZ555]

having a timer is kind of a double-edged sword. on one hand, it can make the game more fun in multiple ways, but on the other, it's very ominous having a death clock in the corner

[@frogvibesgames]

It can be anxiety inducing. Though I don't think most people notice it's there at all. At least not anyone I've played with. Only when time gets low because we're all messing around too much.

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

Until reading these comments I haven’t really thought about how maximizing Score can be an interesting challenge. That being said it would be cool if there was a toggle for these things or maybe even a separate mode that lets you actively compete for points online or with friends or even just with yourself. It could use levels from the main game or even design new levels made specifically for this kinda challenge with mechanics that play with it

[@frogvibesgames]

Games like 3D World, where you're competing for points are very fun. Especially because you're all trying to kill the same enemies and grab the same collectables.

[@probium2832]

My preferred usage for the timer is toggle with the default being off or a stopwatch, and an option for classic and faster (bronze, silver, gold) timers. That way players have more options to pace the game.

[@frogvibesgames]

Are there games that use a system like this already? I'm curious

[@Inveestigator]

I missed your videos! Great to see them back :)

[@frogvibesgames]

Glad to be back!

[@CreativelyJake]

something i felt in Wonder was.. the levels felt *very fast paced*, especially if you found the wonder flower… which, why wouldnt i? heh. im a big collectibles fan but you know what specifically it reminded me of? Splatoon. Splatoons levels are so short I joke to friends theyre “the tiktok / yt shorts of 3d platforming” and yeah! the levels are like, really similar to Wonder in that theyre all based around a specific challenge, or a fun level gimmick that comes and goes in exactly the amount of time you appreciate it, before it can grow old i think spending more time developing different takes on using certain gimmicks through a lot more levels can be fun, but i also heavily respect what wonder does with just.:. basically utilizing every gimmick to its fullest potential, and then moving onto some new enemy or other gimmick …i wonder if mario maker levels had any influence on this! anyways yeah splatoon = tiktok = mario wonder (quick and fun, easy to consume, and both games involve either challenges or throwing fun gimmicks at you)

[@frogvibesgames]

I find it hard not to make the comparison to shorts/tiktok when playing Wonder. Maybe I'm getting older, but me and my friends we're always like "thats it??" At the end of a level. It's funny because I tried to intentionally not grab a Wonder Flower while recording, and the rest of the level was just empty? They really don't think you'll skip it.

[@CreativelyJake]

@ My feeling was more like, woah constant stimulation, oh wow theres still stuff happening. oh my god but like i i wouldnt say its out of the same desire to pander to low attention spans i think its just… them really wanting to cram in as much as they can in a level and have 0 fluff. personally, i appreciate fluff! some downtime! but i think they wanted 0 downtime so you can always keep going to the next level and, again, i couldnt help but feel like “oh wow this is the same kinda level design splatoon 2s dlc and splatoon 3s campaign did”

[@jwechols86]

I’ve never loved the inclusion of a timer in Mario games to be completely honest, but I dislike that there isn’t one in wonder, which I feel would have benefited from one. The thing with wonder, is that learning that there isn’t a timer I thought levels would be much longer and more fleshed, and learning how short they were I was pretty disappointed. Still enjoyed the game though.

[@frogvibesgames]

I feel like the timer is like the true villain in the older games. No one likes them, but a story needs a villain to be exciting.

[@held2053]

I don't think removing the timer is a big change for nintendo. After all, in the latest games nintendo wants more and more to appeal to not just a broad audience, but almost anyone! Super Mario Bros Wonder just happened to be quite unique with the wonder effect, which can drastically change how much time you have to spend in the level. I think they just were hesitant to change up their "perfect mario game formula". It's their mascot after all! And since the new-series was getting pretty... Stale. Not to mention that most of them were really linear. So, yeah. I think SMB Wonder is doing pretty good to freshen up the series! (Only the local co-op sucks a lot...)

[@frogvibesgames]

I do have some videos in mind to look at this new trend in other games. I have mixed feelings about it. As designing for "anyone" is the same as designing for no one. The local co op is so bad. It actively makes the game less fun, where as in games like NSMB Wii, the co op was such a huge highlight, it revolutionized multiplayer games for years to come. Not sure what happened here.

[@PuppetSquid]

That DK remix is FIRE though

[@frogvibesgames]

Thanks! I made a channel in our Discord where I upload the music for each video as an mp3, if you're interested.

[@ComicBoi11]

I’ve been meaning to check out this channel since I played Here Comes Niko a few months back I really think these classic features, like the timers and lives system, would make for a great difficulty system. Easy being the more modern design with no lives or timer for those who like to take their time exploring levels, and Hard reincorporating the lives and timer for those who like the added pressure. If you wanted to get really difficult you could add an Extreme mode that sends you back to the start if you game over, like the early NES days.

[@frogvibesgames]

This sounds very fun actually. I personally wouldn't mind if Nintendo embraced a general difficulty setting on certain games.

[@BagOfMagicFood]

No timer or score? This must be the true sequel to Super Mario Bros. 2 USA

[@frogvibesgames]

I only realised that SMB2/USA doesn't have one during editing, when I was looking for timers to show in the beginning, hehe. Good catch!

[@BagOfMagicFood]

​@@frogvibesgames And then Super Mario Advance ruined it

[@orangepinecone]

just subscribed a couple days ago and you break your 5 month youtube absence! lucky me ^^

[@frogvibesgames]

Had to spend some time on game development, and then the holidays. Glad to be back for the new year!

[@PuffyBuffy25]

Wonder's a pretty great game, though I do admittedly miss the Score and Timer. I'm one of like, 9 people who still play Mario games for score, so I have a bit of a different perspective from most people. Flower coins are pretty much the replacement for score here. This kind of thing has happened before; namely, with coins (and Starbits) in Mario Run and the collect-a-thon trilogy. In 3D Land, though, lives AND coins pretty much filled the void that a lack of score left, especially due to Time still giving you coins. This is probably why the lives counter was increased in the first place, to compensate for that, and it worked perfectly. However, scoring largely feels pointless (pun intended) without the timer for 2 reasons. Firstly, without the timer's whopping 50 point bonus per time unit, you'd never need to prioritize gaining points while still going fast, which would lead to just continuously smashing every brick block and meticulously lining up every combo . At that point why wouldn't I just go play Wario Land where that kind of gameplay is the main premise? The second reason is due to point farming strategies (aka point pressing/point leeching). Even if its not my favorite way to play, its still the most "viable", especially if you're the kind of player who just wants to bump up the number as high as you can. What the timer does is limit how much you can farm, needing you need to move on to the goal, encouraging risky strategies and fast movement while also preventing you from just maxing out your score on the first level. Sure, you could always just throw away extra lives to do that, but not only do the devs encourage you to not do that with the Shiny Stars system, but "credit-feeding" has always been gentlemanl-y sidestepped since the arcade days, anyway. The timer made sure that whether you enjoyed point farming or more of an acrobatic playstyle, both were accommodated. It was also super immersive. Mario's adventures are rarely too serious, and Mario and co generally like to take their time and see the sights, but at the end of the day you still gotta keep taking back territories and save Peach and whatnot. The timer was always lenient enough to let you explore and have adventure, but always keep you reminded on what you're here to do. Same reason why the 10 minute time limit makes sense for Sonic's character and the story. Nintendo themselves don't generally care too much about this kind of thing, but when you look into all the odd scoring quirks you do see that there was some itty bitty thought put into it, even though only really on paper, so I wonder if these could be brought back into the franchise eventually without compromising their new direction. Personal opinions aside, I do actually think there was a game design reason for score, much like with time. Ever notice how those little adjectives appear when you touch the flagpole or grab power-ups? It's like the score system was just completely gutted and replaced with this. But why? If score is pointless why keep something with a resemblance to it? I largely think they were insistent on keeping it, not out of sheer tradition, but because scoring was just how old arcade games used to teach the player. I dont think this new system works nearly as well though, because unlike with points there is no permanent (albeit useless) reward for participating in the system, which doesn't help its function because players aren't going to have any reason to actively think about and strategize for these things at all. The Sonic franchise though, despite the "gotta go fast haha" flanderization by fans, people like to ignore the tons of marketing towards the "woah, he collects a lot of rings" aspect of the character, and of course the emphasis on things like Ranks. It's funny despite score being the "wrong" way to play Sonic, Sonic Team and other devs are still keeping score in the games. Sonic Superstars responds to criticism of score being obtrusive, but instead of just saving like 30 minutes of development time and not including it, tucks it away in the pause menu and at the end of acts for those who care about it. But yet Mario, the guy who's core gameplay elements all originated from one of THE most timeless Highscore games from the era decides to just drop it? It's kinda funny when you think about it... (P.S.: loved Here Comes Niko!)

[@frogvibesgames]

This is all very interesting! Hadn't considered that to some extent, the timer asks players to balance grabbing points with speed. I've also played games where I feel weirdly obligated to break everything, grab all the stuff, even though it's too tedious to be fun. Being on the clock does mend this too. As for scores, remember how Mario 3D world gave the player with the highest score a silly crown to wear? That made it incredibly fun, especially because it made you fight over who gets to squash the goomba or grab the coins, while still needing to collaborate to some extent, to be able to finish the level. Thank you for this comprehensive comment! It's great to hear from someone who's still chasing scores. Really interesting!

[@StoMoComedoPro]

I think it works out well to not have a timer except just brief timers in some parts like the wiggler races and wonder flowers. It would work even more well in 3D games though. Just like with most things in all kinds of life concepts, balance is key. There could also be games in the future where you lose if you run out of time, but don't get bonus points for beating the level fast. There could be games like that like mainline games that involve chatting with NPCs and other stuff that are not time based or could be about getting more points for taking longer on something or something where the key is to get as close as you can to a set amount of time, with taking too long or too quick giving less points. Something funny also about the crown system in SM3DW is that Princess Peach who just happens to be a playable character and not the one saving in that game is already wearing a crown. Oh, and good joke at the end, haha. I didn't think of that, yeah.

[@frogvibesgames]

I love the crown system in 3D World. I also think the way Wonder does it works well for the kind of game it is.

[@Shark_Builds_Bro]

I just started playing Here Comes Niko yesterday :3

[@frogvibesgames]

Thank you for playing!

[@Woopserupper]

i like frog vibes, those are the best vibes! ❤

[@frogvibesgames]

🐸🐸🐸

[@a.lollipop]

I always despised having a timer. It's so long it does nothing most of the time, but when it does run out it's just frustrating having to play a chunk of the level again just because I was messing around. A game shouldn't punish you for having fun.

[@thedude4063]

3D World is my favorite 3D Mario. Wonder is my favorite 2D

[@frogvibesgames]

For me I'd say Odyssey and NSMB Wii. Though I do love 3D World a lot too

[@thedude4063]

@frogvibesgames I've 100% Bowser's Fury 5 times lol

[@Wahloogeh]

fun, insightful video

[@ninaschmidt3619]

I legit love Mario 2

[@frogvibesgames]

Me too

[@Doktario_Mystario]

while the score system is technically useless, it also encourages you to go out of your way to collect things you don't need. And in this case it makes jumping on multiple enemies more rewarding TL;DR: a score system doesn't have to be "useful" to make a game better

[@frogvibesgames]

This is true! As a side note, an interesting thing Mario games like to do as all is give the player a little applause for things like "collect all coins in this little row". I don't think it ever grants extra points or anything, but it feels so good. Lady Gaga even made a song about this mechanic specifically. A lot of people don't realize.

[@Simchen]

I think timers should be optional. You should be able to switch them on for some kind of speedrun challenge. In the sense that they count up. But I don't need a count down timer that just throws me out of a level for no other reason then I stayed too long in the level.

[@frogvibesgames]

Why not?

[@WildGardevoir]

I always think that the reason they did that is to make the game easier not only there is no timer but you can't interact with other player and that's sad killing each other in a Mario game was always the origin of good memories and rivalry. I also feel that for pokemon there is the multi exp that you can't turn off so you ended up being too overlevel and it's not fun considering the ai that is more and more dumb. I feel like Nintendo is making their game easier wich can be good I guess for the younger player (since they becoming more and more brainroted) but for us fan of challenge we are forced to suffer from it.

[@frogvibesgames]

It is wild to me that Pokemon has so much complexity to its RPG mechanics that doesn't get used in the main game. I don't think they're bad for it, but I'd love to play those games on a sort of "hard mode". Nintendo definitely has a tough job, making games for such a wide range of players.

[@OuzeHD]

i wish they added the time limit

[@frogvibesgames]

The levels that have you defeat a bunch of enemies as quickly as possible are my favorite.

[@KaiJie-n8q]

I liked timers...

[@pleasestopsubscribingtomyc3360]

then set a clock beside you as you play

[@frogvibesgames]

Same, moment of silence for timers 😞

[@froggyloaf]

I never really liked the timer and think wonder does it right, with the time only in a few wonder seeds. Though I think there should be a mode where you have to beat a level as fast as possible, like in a few DK games

[@frogvibesgames]

The comments in galaxy repurpose levels in this way too. It's great fun. I definitely don't think Wonder needs a general time limit. Though I do think I enjoyed the games before it more for it.

[@Net_15]

I understand the points in this video, but i dont agree that the absence of the timer is a bad thing at all. The timer i dont feel was too great at either of the 2 things you mentioned due to how long it is. For the time to really work as a way to push the players to go forward, it'd need to be way more apparent and noticeable. I dont believe its needed for it though, the game is inherently fun to go forward in, and since you're always going left to right, the goal is always intuitive for less experienced players. When the low time chime plays, i feel that the less experienced player wouldnt manage to get to the end of the level in time in their rush to the end, if it really happened too much As for the interruption of the exploration, i think that the issue of being stuck trying to go to certain spots thinking there'd be a star coin in the spot is less on the timer and more on the level design. I dont think either example you showed would be plausible places for star coins to begin with, since they're usually not hidden above the screen (when they are its hinted at in some way), and when you can't reach a pipe, its usually because you get out of it from the other way. And even then, you'd need to spend so much time in for it to actually run out and interupt a stubborn search like that (i say stubborn because thats what it is tbh, and thats not bad! I've had situations like that too lol) that it doesnt work too well. And i dont believe thats a very common occourence, it depends quite a lot on the player and the level. The most well designed levels wouldnt make players get in those situations i feel. I do agree that the way many purple coins in wonder are only able to be done once per life is annoying, but dying and restarting is so quick and painless i don't really mind, and you never really get on that "should i kill THIS enemy" mentality too often in my experience This was a fun video though! Even if i disagree with it, it was a fun watch, and the way its edited is simply wonderful. I've been wanting to play Here comes niko for a while now actually lol. Eventually i'll get to it though

[@frogvibesgames]

@@Net_15 Disagreement is good! It's all about the conversation after all. I just thought this was an interesting thing most people Haven't given much thought. I don't think Wonder needs a timer, it's a completely different game.

[@Net_15]

​@@frogvibesgamesindeed! Discussing things we dont think much about in game design is always great fun to me! Its what leads to a better understanding of how our favorite games are designed, and as a game designer wannabe its always nice to see

[@king-of-a-thing]

Should have removed lives as well. I never got a Game Over during the whole game. And even after beating the hardest and true final stage in the game I still had like 20+ lives left.

[@frogvibesgames]

Interesting! You're right, lives don't matter much in wonder. I do like the thrill lives give, when it means going back to the last castle and such. NSMB Wii was so fun for it.

[@king-of-a-thing]

@frogvibesgames Kirby and the Forgotten Land removed lives and the stakes are actually higher because if you die you lose 100 coins and coins have actual value unlike lives.

[@ninaschmidt3619]

You should new Super Luigi u It has 100 seconds for each level

[@frogvibesgames]

I should! Only played a bit so far.

[@JuhoSprite]

arent you music person making music for pirate person?

[@frogvibesgames]

Yeah that me :)

[@pokefreak2112]

I loved Wonder but I'm also slightly worried about the direction that Mario games seem to be heading in. Both Odyssey and Wonder transform Mario into completely different characters to keep things fresh. And while it _is_ fun, it kinda feels like my Mario gameplay is being interrupted by random minigames all the time. Especially in Wonder the most challenging parts of the game for me were the levels in the special world where you had to play as a transformation instead of Mario, or in the final level being forced to use badges I'd barely used prior. It's just a lot less rewarding than previous games where the final level was a test to make sure you'd absolutely mastered the character controller you'd been playing with throughout the entire game.

[@frogvibesgames]

I want to make more videos about this sort of trend. With the badges, while they sound fun on paper, they also felt like the devs went, "How about you design the game now?" And maybe it is because designing games is my day job, but I don't like to have to do it for the games I play.

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

Does anyone actually miss that timer?

[@frogvibesgames]

me ʕ´• ᴥ•̥`ʔ

[@MasterDisaster64]

I would've liked to see Mario go in the opposite direction - make score and time matter more to the player. Make them tie into a rank for each level, so you're more enticed to replay and master them. They're already copying from Sonic, after all.

[@doodlememes]

3D world did a lot with the score in multiplayer, whoever has the highest score in the end of the level gets a crown

[@ComicBoi11]

Agreed!! The Sonic Rush S rank system is a masterpiece

[@frogvibesgames]

That could be a blast yeah! It's weird that they did this with the flag pole for a while. Especially when they had power ups that made it simple to get.

[@MasterDisaster64]

@@frogvibesgames Yeah, I think ranking your performance on the whole level rather than that one binary challenge would be more interesting. Reaching the top of the flagpole could still tie into your score, though.