How and when exactly did the Western Roman Army dissolve?

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[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Head to squarespace.com/maiorianus to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using the code "maiorianus".

[@JTL1776]

Only 2 events really made Rome fall cause Rome decline was inevitable. If the battle of the frigudus river was avoided and if stillcho and his high-ranking officers weren't assassinated. West and Eastern rome would have both survived far longer sure in a smaller, less absolute dominant state, but both would have survived.

[@user-kf3dg3ud5m]

The Limitan legion could number 500 soldiers in the 5th century, and the Camitat legion 250 soldiers.

[@badgamemaster]

The greatest enemy of the Empire was the Romans themself.

[@Not-Ap]

And that continued to be a problem right up to the fall of comstinople. Something we should all learn from.

[@GoogleUserOne]

According brochacho here it’s DEFINITELY rikimir. The guy single handedly undercut an empire. I wish he would stay continue browbeating him like earlier videos

[@raimohoft1236]

Nope... it were the christians

[@castagnos509]

Bro take got to seriously

[@Gman909008]

The greatest enemy of the Wnemm😂

[@robertvermaat2124]

You missed the first occasion: after the Frigidus battle in 394, Theodosius took the best units of the Western army, severely weakening it. Although Stilicho for some time refused to return the Eastern units home, he in the end had to let them go, leaving a weakenen Western army vulnerable for the event of 406 and afterwards.

[@doppelwaffen]

During Stilicho's regime, the West without doubt was the stronger part of the empire.

[@robertvermaat2124]

@@doppelwaffen You have to specify when during Stilicho's reign. Before he had to return the Eastern troops, sure. After that, not at all.

[@doppelwaffen]

@@robertvermaat2124 In 406 AD, Stilicho had assembled the army in Italy in order to invade the East and annex its Illyrian provinces, effectively restoring control over 3 of the 5 prefectures of the united empire.

[@robertvermaat2124]

@@doppelwaffen That was after he was forced to return the Eastern units - which also included the best unit of the West, pilfered by Theodosius back in 394. Stilicho therefore only had some units of the Western army, and eventually never invaded the East. Not only did he not 'restore ' anything, he made a deal with Alaric that he could not fulfill, angering the senate because they had to provide the payment demanded by Alaric. It was, effectively, the beginning of Stilicho's downfall. Not his apogee.

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

I didn't miss this ;) I probably talked about it already 20 times in earlier videos and didn't want to sound like a broken record, hehe :)

[@johnquach8821]

Very good topic! I'm always down for a Collapse of the Western Roman Empire and Army video. Maybe a "Why the Roman Empire never solved it succession problem"? Or a "What would you have seen in 1454 Istanbul/Constantinople 1 year after the Ottoman Turks captured it?"

[@geordiejones5618]

The succession problem in something inherently flawed to monarchy. And it never gets solved because any general can rise up and march. The Ottomons figured it out as best as you can: if and when you're able, slaughter your male relatives.

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Excellent suggestions, noted :)

[@johnquach8821]

@@Maiorianus_Sebastian Thank you so much!

[@bendackins7211]

Damn, the idea of the “last legion” fighting even in the 600s is such a wild thought! Like something straight out of a movie

[@Marshal_Rock]

Imagine them giving a last stand against the invaders while a flashbacks of its history rolls.

[@wynnschaible]

The idea of a military mission, organization, equipment, being past down to the next generation is so fascinating one keeps trying to imagine a modern analog. Because in every sense but military such is going on now!

[@AndrewBuckleBookReviews]

So basically it was a confusing end to the Western Roman Army, hard to find a particular person that turned off the lights - absolutely brilliant video as ever

[@iDeathMaximuMII]

Another devastating battle was the Battle of Mursa Major (September 28th, 351) in which so many Roman troops died that it allegedly made Constantius II (who had a reputation of being a murderous kind of guy) fall into tears at the sight of it. Probably the most devastating Battle in all Roman Civil Wars in terms of Casualties

[@ZeRo-bx7lp]

The Roman army was very different in the 5th century compared to previously, you can say the following gothic armies are somewhat of a continuation of the late roman armies

[@Johnsmith99663]

I forget which book it's in, but there's a story where, upon hearing of Augustulus' deposition, a garrison of Western Roman soldiers stationed somewhere in northern Italy decided to send a contingent south to Ravenna to see what would become of their jobs. Now that the last Western emperor has been sent into early retirement and the new "king" of Italy declared himself merely the client of Constantinople, were they now to be servants of Odoacer, of Zeno, or should they find new employment? A few days later, the garrison found the bodies of the riders they sent floating in a river, and after assembling for a vote, decided to dissolve itself.

[@josephpercente8377]

By the later roman empire the legions were pretty much extinct. The names may have existed but the units were more like regiments of 1000 as were the other roman units. The army became more cavelry centric. It had to become more mobile to chase after all the barbarians cruising around.

[@jurgisvalancauskas4006]

So more like a police force

[@arturomh4590]

That must be a pattern in collapsing civilizations/states. This happened too in the German army in late 1944 and 1945 during the later stages of ww2. You could find an "elite" SS division composed of 2000 men and new divisions were in lower numbers and less quality.

[@kissmyash95]

14:19 its a picture of the late roman fortress in modern day Passau (my hometown) i recommend the roman museum there. smal but pretty intresting. in the nearby village Künzing is also a roman museum.

[@blushdog99]

A video like this for the western Roman senate would be great. I always wonder what that last senators must have been thinking at their last meeting

[@TEverettReynolds]

What were they thinking? LOL, that's easy. How to get more money from the poor peasants...

[@precariousworlds3029]

It's incredible that the Roman Senate survived in the East until the 1300s!

[@iDeathMaximuMII]

The last recorded session of the Western Senate was in 603, confirming the reign of Phocas The Last recorded session of the Eastern Senate was in 1197 to approve a new taxes & in 1204 they made their last known action by electing a guy named Nicholas Kanabos in opposition to Issac II & Alexios IV

[@precariousworlds3029]

@@iDeathMaximuMII I remember seeing that the Senate survived even under the Palailogus dynasty

[@morgan97475]

Would love to see a video about Syagrius & his kingdom, as well Riothamus & Ambrosius Aurelianus, all of whom were (I believe) contemporaneous.

[@jamesrahe5287]

Such a well researched and edited video, thank you for your work!

[@antoniotorcoli702]

Thank you for this extraprdinary video. Indeed, some roman units fought for sure for Odoacer, since his best general, the comes Pierius, was roman. The scarce sources and archaeology seem to indicate that comes Arbogast the younger ruled in Colonia after the collapse of Syagrius 's army. And Procopius states that many roman troops joined the Franks, but kept their weapons and insigna. Furthermore a couple of generals of the early visigothic kingdom in Spain were roman as well.

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Excellent comment Antonio, very nice to read. Indeed, you have summarized it nicely. There are plenty of such examples, and probably more, and I wouldn't be surprised to still find roman Comitatus or Limitanei style roman military units even in the early 500s in the West.

[@philipcollins3849]

Great content as usual

[@robbabcock_]

Terrific video.⚔

[@MrGtrMike]

Nice video!!

[@DontKnow-hr5my]

Found your channel today over your last video, love you content, very interesting

[@yeapxuen5291]

Another great video, keep it up! Long time subscriber. Anyways, do make more content on the Eastern Roman Empire, especially the rule of Arcadius and the rebellion of Magister Militum Tribigild! Love your work!

[@palacehaunter5442]

Eastern Empire was cancer, glad the Justinian plague ruined them.

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Hello Yeap Xuen, I am trying sir, I am trying, but the list of future videos is so ridiculously long, lol, 300+ topics now and growing. It keeps getting more instead of less, haha!

[@yeapxuen5291]

@@Maiorianus_Sebastian🤣

[@jmac6055]

Nice video! Fascinating topics as I love to learn more about the Romans. Truly one of the most powerful and influential Empires to ever exist.

[@crabcrab2024]

U R the best! Much love from US!

[@logicaredux5205]

As General MacArthur said: “Old soldiers never die. They just fade away.” Rest In Peace Legionaries.

[@thadtuiol1717]

Or get their asses fired, like Mac did.

[@histoguy6025]

Excellent video as always!!! Its a topic that it always interesting me and i thought i'd never see a video talking about the end of the roman army in the west!!. Can i ask you what mods do you use for those amazing cinematics with Attila Total war?

[@delavalmilker]

Thanks!

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Hello Delavalmilker, thanks a lot for your generous donation, I really appreciate it a lot. It is amazing people like you, who make this channel possible ! Seriously, 1000 thanks and I hope Majorian would be proud.

[@rafaelrodrigues7971]

I think it would be interesting to address the psychological and sociological motivators for the Roman and Germanic recruits at the 5th Century. How they commoners felt about the state, it there was any "Roman glory nostalgia" among the lower classes, and the effects of early Christianity compared to late Roman paganism on their works view.

[@carlosfilho3402]

Thanks To This important Vídeo.

[@juanzulu1318]

Another reason: troop merging. It is not uncommon in military history that a depleted unit has been filled up with another one - and thus one unit disapears.

[@boyar3033]

Your channel is a goldmine on late Roman history ! I can that a lot of effort is put in each and every one video.

[@galshaine2018]

Excellent topic covered here. Very few people asked this question as (I guess) most are trapped in the old concept of "The barbarians came. Rome lost. The end" (scenario more resembling the details of the fall of the Assyrian empire). I believe its in the book of Mitchell "a history of the later Roman empire" where there is some mentioning about fractions of unites stationed somewhere in modern Hungary who are documented making their way from their posts, back home, after the "fall". A rare anecdotal story describing the practicality of the process. Sometime in the future would be great if you can make a video reviewing and discussing some of the main modern text books covering the topic of the late Western Roman empire. Like this one.

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Hi Gal, thanks a lot for your excellent comment and of course for your support, I really appreciate it :) Good idea, kind of like a book review about the best books about the late Western Roman Empire. Noted ! Yes, the book by Mitchell certainly cites the Vita Sancti Severini. That sounds exactly like what is described there. Some garrison units stationed at the Danube Castellums after "The Fall", and some of them head for Italy to collect their pay. I can highly recommend the Vita Sancti Severini to get a real-life account of what happened in the 470s and 480s in Raetia and Noricum.

[@palatasikuntheyoutubecomme2046]

How is this 4 days ago

[@aka99]

@@palatasikuntheyoutubecomme2046 good question.onderd this too. maybe time machine?😁 we might never know and remains a forever mystery

[@galshaine2018]

@palatasikuntheyoutubecomme2046 supporters of the channel can access and watch some videos before they are opened to view for all in youtube. But only once it becomes public the "published" date is set.

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

3:28 It's pretty curious how some of those late Roman military symbols inspired the creation of the Star Wars Rebel Alliance Logo.

[@BigChapDidNothingWrong]

And the symbol from the Marathon games by Bungie, which then show up in Halo

[@viperking6573]

your latin is so good!

[@APar2008]

Thanks @Maiorianus_Sebastian, I think it would be worthwhile to examine or do a video on late Roman traitors who decided it was better to help the barbarians than defend the empire. People like Victorius and Vencentius who worked for the gothic king Euric in Gaul or Seronatus and Arvandus , Roman administrators who both joined Euric.

[@GoogleUserOne]

Are you just making up random names?

[@APar2008]

@@GoogleUserOneno, read the inheritance of Rome by Chris wickham, he is one of the best post Roman scholars and his texts are used in the Ivy League

[@TEverettReynolds]

With the heavy taxation, and the unrealistic demands of the Emperor and all his cronies, joining the simple and carefree "barbarians" may have seemed like the better choice at the time for defending one's own life. if I recall, Euric was the first to declare his independence from Rome, a Rome which was clearly falling apart by this time. Even to me, Euric seems like the better choice.

[@APar2008]

@@TEverettReynoldsmaybe he was but they also could have killed off Ricimer and taken over themselves or supported Nepos who was competent. They even could have supported Majorian before . There were options other than betrayal

[@Maiorianus_Sebastian]

Excellent suggestion @Andrew Parise, thanks, I have noted your suggestion to the growing list of future video topics :)

[@illreidepagliacci3251]

It would be interesting to see a video on the reasons why the Roman Empire in general was so unstable in terms of succession of emperors

[@precariousworlds3029]

Began with choosing a military dictatorship over a democratic republic

[@zippyparakeet1074]

The Empire's fate was sealed the moment it switched from a Republic to an Empire. The Republic was stable, the Empire was not.

[@weaverquest]

@@precariousworlds3029 From what I understand democracy never really worked anywhere either until the post-industrial world and even then not that much until after World War II.

[@KKKKKKK777js]

Well it started with Augustus totaly not creating a monarchy, so he could not have a formal dynasty. But his heirs could remain in power as long as they appesed the senate and kept the army loyal. Later princeps figured out the senate was irrelevant and the empire was not even formaly anything but a military dicktatorship. And military dictatorships are not realy stable, becouse any general can claim the throne. This problem would only be partialy solved when the east romans came up with the born into purple as a form of legitamacy, although the byzantine court was also a mess.

[@kurtsell8376]

Not an expert but my best guess is that the last of the Roman legionaries, as Imperial control failed, joined up with and served the new barbarian kings who were by that point the kings were the only people who could take them on. Besides, a lot of these kings had been allies of Rome at some point or another and would have been known to the troops beforehand (not to mention the Germans serving in the Roman army could have gone home and served their king, and possibly brought Roman friends with them).

[@user-kf3dg3ud5m]

The Western Roman army in the time of Honorius in 400 could reach up to 70,000 people, and in the time of Majorian in 460 only 30,000 people. The famous historian Ian Hughes thinks so!

[@juanzulu1318]

Thx

[@nicholasphelps3872]

Can you do some on the evolution of Byzantine soldier appearance?

[@PalHBakka]

This is one of the most dascinating stories I have heard and seen. There is tons of hisory here waiting fro sombody to write the ultimate novel of the Fall and Rise of Rome.

[@paulvmarks]

As you know many Germanic troops defected to the Goths after the murder of Stilicho - but as their own wives and children had been murdered in anti barbarian riots, their defection is understandable. Constantine appears to have encouraged the families of soldiers to live in the cities (rather than in fortified military bases on the frontiers - as had been the case since the Emperor Severus had allowed soldiers to marry and have children) almost as a form of hostages - but if you kill your hostages they are not hostages any more, then their husbands and fathers have only one thought, revenge.

[@runningriot9814]

Me, every time I watch a Maiorianus video: Another!

[@coppeis]

Great video, love the channel but what is your accent? You're clear but where is it from?

[@RandomLorence]

9:50: Legio I Adiutrix 10:19: Legio II Italica 10:56: Legio VI Victrix 11:39: Legio VII Gemina 11:57: Legio X Gemina 12:11: Legio XIV Gemina 12:42 Legio XXX Ulpia-Victrix 13:15: Legio V Macedonica

[@aka99]

some legions got a unit history of 400 or 500 years. Is there any military unit with same long unit history?

[@tomsherwood4650]

Been re-reading The Fall of The Roman Empire by Arthur Ferrill that covers the miiitary angle of this.

[@potatosinnato1767]

Someone needs to make an rpg game based during the fall of Rome, that would be so awesome to explore an open world as Rome collapses

[@samtheman4931]

There’s is one

[@potatosinnato1767]

@@samtheman4931 wait rlly, what game is it?

[@BigChapDidNothingWrong]

Assassin's Creed: The Fall

[@Yora21]

"Magnus Maximus" The guy was called "Greatest Big"?

[@mattstakeontheancients7594]

Curious if you would ever do if I was a Roman emperor what would I do to save the empire especially late 4th early 5th century time period.

[@TheCloneEngineer]

I would be curious about a video on what happened to the senate in Rome until its aparrent end in the seventh century AD

[@Moribus_Artibus]

"This is not a peace, but a bond of servitude" - Lampadius on Stilicho's agreement with Alaric

[@GrandAdmiralThrawn7thFleet]

What mod are you using for Attila Total War

[@isaakchatelet7260]

A question, how far did the Romans actually explored the world? And what did they thought was at the edge of the world ?

[@tomsherwood4650]

Roman trade items have been found in southeast asia.

[@isaakchatelet7260]

@@tomsherwood4650 Damn, did the Romans know about Siberia or Scandinavia?

[@Not-Ap]

@@isaakchatelet7260 Idk about Siberia but the Greeks knew about Scandinavia and later the Roman's learned of it from them.

[@isaakchatelet7260]

@@Not-Ap thanks

[@doylekitchen9795]

What do you think the migration from Rome to Constantinople had on the Army? Most of the Senatorial class and Generals followed the money (Constantine). This is why you had Stilicho and others like him as the major Generals instead of Romans.

[@juanzulu1318]

Interesting. The early and high medieval nasal helmets didnt have those cheek protection the late Roman nasal helnets had. Why is that?

[@user-ll9hb3sd8h]

Will you talk about ER tho?

[@redterrorproductions1373]

What us ER?

[@Not-Ap]

@@redterrorproductions1373 Eastern Rome

[@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014]

I have a question, to anyone who read this. Did the Goths (Visigoths and or Ostrogoths) used Roman Equipment and local troops or everything was purely gothic? What was the language of the military of the goths?

[@ozgurceltikci9106]

1:33 Well, that was mainly due to Constantine XI’s mother, who managed to prevent a civil war between him and his brother Thomas. ERE could very well have been destroyed by a final civil war between two Palaiologos-Dragaš brothers ca. 1449. How anticlimactic that would be!!

[@OptimusMaximusNero]

11:25 Speaking of the arthurian legend, there's a pretty good series from the 70's called "Arthur of the Britons", which depicts the famous Legend of King Arthur in a very realistic way. In this show, Arthur is the humble leader of a Celtic tribe (and not a powerful king) who fights against the Saxons and Merlin is just a normal man without magical powers. I highly recommend it!

[@Haibing22]

The Roman legions fought against Muslims? You should make a video about that.

[@HS-su3cf]

In "Field Armies of the East Roman Empire", Kaldellis and Kruse re-date the Eastern part of the Notitia to the 440s. They do so convincingly in my view. However they do not discuss the Western part.

[@mango2005]

I think in the 5th century this was really a mercenary army. And increasingly its commanders were barbarian tribesmen too. Some were the younger sons of barbarian kings including Ricimer who was a younger son of the Suebic king (probably Rechiar) and Visigothic princess. Roman military service was a popular choice for barbarian princes who were unlikely to gain the throne of their barbarian tribe. It also brought divided loyalties sometimes. In some ways, Ricimer needed these enemies to survive to justify holding onto power, and to prevent a rival becoming too strong. If the enemy defeated the Romans, Ricimer's position could be in danger - so his solution was puppet emperors who could be the fall-guy. Problem was that Majorian refused to be a puppet so Ricimer probablyt betrayed it and killed Majorian. Ricimer probably also betrayed the African expedition (of with Anthemius and Leo) in the 460s by assassinating Roman generals like Marcellinus.

[@misaelfraga8196]

The the "Byzantine" empire stopped giving their legion names after the Muslim conquest?

[@samtheman4931]

Yes

[@fusion9619]

Was Rome just constantly at war? And were most wars against external enemies, or internal civil wars?

[@jasonalmendra3823]

Maximus Magnus who later became emperor, redeployed his Briton troops in 383 from Britannia to the Armorican peninsula. Now it's called Britanny. They resisted the Franks and the Normans.

[@dhm7815]

For Romans in Rome's quarrel spared neither land nor gold, Nor son nor wife, nor limb nor life, in the brave days of old. Then none was for a party; then all were for the state; Then the great man helped the poor, and the poor man loved the great. Then lands were fairly portioned; then spoils were fairly sold: The Romans were like brothers in the brave days of old. Now Roman is to Roman more hateful than a foe, And the Tribunes beard the high, and the Fathers grind the low. As we wax hot in faction, in battle we wax cold: Wherefore men fight not as they fought in the brave days of old. ----"Horatius at the Bridge" (1842) Thomas Babington Macaulay

[@explorer1968]

What if some units managed to reach the Eastern Roman Empire and rejoined the Roman Army stationed there?...

[@steveswitzer4353]

After the bloodletting of the western army at Frigidus , it must have been cheaper to get foederati of ready armed and ferocious barbarians who didnt need to be trained and some of whom probably had been in the roman army , than to re constitute the army

[@rgrimoldi]

everythig was alright until squarepace ad

[@nicholasphelps3872]

This reminds me up of sci-fi movies like Mad Max where civilization has collapsed and all that's left are crumbling skyscraper ruins and monuments like the statue of liberty on the beach.

[@me-ds2il]

How to resolve conflicts without use of force. First of all we need rules that all sides can agree to live by but then then will always be rebels

[@blintzkreig1638]

14 in Roman numerals is XIV, not XIIII. But good video.

[@cowboyforhire4407]

Romans used both

[@xmaniac99]

Yup, but in the 4th century it would have been xiv xd

[@fortunatusnine2012]

🤔👍👍

[@KevinDavis338]

I wonder how many Roman Legionnaires deserted their units.

[@wargriffin5]

The empire wanted to save money and just stacked levy freemen instead of training legionairies. 😉

[@paul1780]

Comment for the algorithm.

[@raimohoft1236]

Never. I'm Emperor! You just don't know it... yet. 😋

[@raybon7939]

Problem is men hate order and seek to destroy it.

[@vicvilla5603]

Which mod of Attila Total War was used in the video?

[@toledomarcos70]

One solution to the succession problem was to make the office of Imperator elective or take the COUNSEL SYSTEM and turn it into a presidential and vice-presidential like the USA.

[@toledomarcos70]

Also, Octavian had to do a Diocletian resignation after about 20 years or less, setting an example like George Washington.

[@doppelwaffen]

Considering that most of today's elected officials would not be able to match a single Roman usurper on the battlefield, I'm not sure if Rome really had a succession problem.

[@rogelioalonzo2911]

What a tragedy

[@aka99]

I hope Maioraius will make a video how Trier looked like and how Cologne looked like in 400 a.D. Thanks to medieval chronists wie know a little bit about the roman empire.without them we wouldnt know anything about rome.

[@OrkosUA]

Did the Romans really call Eugenius in a German manner like Oygenius?

[@MBP1918]

Romans killed Romans

[@DieLuftwaffel]

Caesar should have reformed the Senate and then stepped aside entirely and let it remain a Republican Empire to temper and dilute the power of individual madmen and narcissists.

[@lerneanlion]

Have you ever compared the Romans to the Marleyans in Attack on Titan? I asked this because the Marleyans were, and might still be, the Romans in the world of Attack on Titan.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Historical Fiction story about the descendants of Legionnaires upholding their traditions under the banner of the Visigoths as they try to fight off the Umayyad Caliphate.

[@shawnrhaweh4582]

Do you still say A D. everytime you say 2023??

[@palatasikuntheyoutubecomme2046]

No.

[@nedludd7622]

No, because it is CE, not AD.

[@aka99]

@@nedludd7622 doesnt fit both? either after christ or anno domini?

[@nedludd7622]

@@aka99 Common Era. That is the term. Before that it is BCE. Duh.

[@aka99]

@@nedludd7622 Common Era, okay. I like AC better. After Christ.

[@isaakchatelet7260]

FIRTSTST

[@raybon7939]

I think people underestimate in these years how little a late roman would care about records since rome was ending.

[@carausiuscaesar5672]

Oooo i can’t stop thinking of those hunky blonde blue eyed German warriors…..no wonder they were so hard to resist!

[@antoniopacelli]

Fascist Have NATO Still.

[@KZ-ub9bg]

They got dissolved because the late roman military uniform looked lame

[@markcreemore4915]

This is a melancholy tale.😥