How BAD Could OLD Chainplates Be? | Sailing Wisdom [S6 Ep2]

[@RiggingDoctor]

Please let me know of any suppliers of affordable Silicon Bronze fasteners!

[@Building_Bluebird]

I don't know how affordable but Stephen from Acorn to Arabella might know a good source. And I believe they made a lot of custom bronze fasteners for their build. Duckworks might also sell or direct you. Or go to a metals distribution warehouse like Alro Steel. They sell bronze bar stock. There is a listing for a Baltimore location in Middle River. I'm not sure about bronze prices but they had the best sheet steel pricing when I was reskinning our bus after raising the roof a few years ago.

[@spray3716]

Fair Winds Fasteners

[@kingharbormarinecenter2801]

McMaster Carr

[@bretzman641]

Jamestown Distributors is my go to.

[@SublimeLightPhoto]

Atlas Bronze in Trenton, NJ

[@Gladtobemom]

My dad literally yelled at the screen when you started talking, "No matter where you put 'em, they gotta be looked at, so don't bury them." He was so maniacal about inspecting everything on his boat, he hated hidden places for problems. For instance, he didn't like furlers or hardware that couldn't be inspected (even if you had to look in a locker). Every through hole had a mallet and a bung on a cord next to it and they were all inspected on a weekly basis. He even used the manual bilge pump every month and inspected the tubing (it had a long lever that installed under a fitting in the cockpit. (His boat was a Pearson 39-2, built for him with a raised cabin top so he could stand up without hunching over)

[@RiggingDoctor]

Sounds like we have a lot in common!

[@billfromgermany]

I have some comments which I hope will be useful: 1) Modify the boat inside so that all chainplates can be visually inspected; 2) Use flexible, non-hardening sealant, I use butyl rubber; 3) Use NiAlBronze which is non-corroding and has a nice gold colour; 4) If you have s/s chainplates, remove to test, using following test: suspend chainplate from lower bolt hole using a screwdriver, strike chainplate with steel hammer, clear musical note should sound, reverse chainplate and hang from rigging screw hole, strike again. If chainplate is good, clear bell-like sounds. If crevice corrosion is present, there is a dull “clang”. Absolutely no risk of mistake, even if you are tone-deaf!😉

[@phillipryker7711]

Herbie, Port Townsend Foundry will sell you Bronze chainplates. He puts square holes in them so you can use silicone bronze carriage bots available from McMaster-Carr and bolt depot. Only one problem…. You will have to wait on them. Could take a year to get them. They are very busy.

[@markchodroff250]

Also not for anything but The Duracell project built all there chain plates from fiberglass and carbon fiber , a great idea and made them internal to the boat , with No bolts ! A must look into !

[@RiggingDoctor]

I just took a look and I’m in love with the concept!!

[@damonsails]

You're gonna put Herb through a loop giving new eccentric ideas to have to ponder over 😂 we love you man!

[@edwardfinn4141]

Excellent treatise on Chainplates design…

[@jd739]

I would think that the biggest problems to solve are: how do make sure the hull section is strong enough to support the plates and how do you get straight metal bars tight to a round hull section.

[@michaelhamilton5571]

Remembered from long ago ,guy use ss banding straps, mulitiple layers. Bolt passing through end of each layer, as they got shorter in length. Also titanium is great for this application

[@howardskipper6401]

Acorn to Arabella used a lot of bronze strapping. In their ship build they told where they sourced everything.

[@s.simsmamasboy]

Sweden....worked in a foundry that manufactured fire hydrants n valves. The only source we had was in Sweden. There used to be a place in Memphis TN. That was yrs ago. Oh I also wondered if the man that developed the 357 magnum cartridge did some traveling too.

[@RiggingDoctor]

I never thought about it, so I looked it up. It was invented by Elmer Keith who was a Freemason!

[@svwindhorse]

Try Hamilton Marine for non fully threaded silicone bronze cap screws in 5/8 and 7/8. Try Atlas Metal for 1/2 x 2 bar. Likely to be crazy expensive.

[@sailingsibongile]

Internal chainplates also allow your jib track to run that little bit closer to the centre-line, so improve your upwind performance. For longer distance upwind sailing, I guess you can use a barber hauler, but the position of your jib track & block needs to be considered.

[@nooneanybodyknows7912]

Interesting video. No loud background music competing with your voice. 👍 Thanks for sharing.

[@nicholasbigney4143]

Your logic is pretty darn good. One thing you didn't mention, (or i missed it) is that with the external chainplates a part of the load on the chainplate is now a compression load, since the rigging now pulls at a slight angle against the outside of the hull. This is in contrast to an internal chainplate which pulls the chainplate away from the hull. It probably matters less where bolts are used rather than just glassing the chainplate in, but in my Island Packet my new internal chainplates pull away from the inside of the Hull, relying totally on a secondary epoxy bond to keep the chainplate in place. It looks nice, but I would sleep easier with external chainplates. Also, I do know that Fastenal makes custom bolts out of any material (Once upon a time I used to make custom bolts for Fastenal). The silicon bronze chainplates should be pretty easy. The Northeast had many brass/bronze suppliers at one time. Here in Texas there should be ample bronze suppliers also. I'll check the Houston area. Fair winds.

[@gr3398]

Great video Herby! Please share when you find a good bronze supplier.

[@john-wi5xx]

You are rite on the three five or seven brother.

[@RiggingDoctor]

🤝

[@bunkerhill4854]

A couple of observations: You commented on the choice of bronze for chain plates. Is there a difference in friction between stainless steel chain plates on fibre glass rather than bronze that would affect the calculations? Or bronze on wood etc.? Also considering the portion of the chain plate above the deck, since it is not subject to friction or such, should there be extra metal around the hole to provide additional strength?

[@californiakayaker]

Most of the diss-masts related to rigging have been hardware that was to small , not strong enough. I've seen three in the last year with that problem. Connection stuff. I think in the last 10 years I've seen rigging slacken because of something to do with the post under the mast. That said, if one could get the statistics and explanations regarding the 10 dissmasted boats in the GGR race you'd get a more extreme explanation ! One of the most recent dis-masts happened because a bolt under the chain plate (holding the chain plate).

[@RiggingDoctor]

It would be an interesting point to investigate! I always set it up so that the clevis pin at the chainplate is the weakest link. Easy to inspect and easy to replace if it breaks (and the mast stays standing)

[@peterstockless7652]

you neglected to take into account the part of the "slip critical joint" definition where is says: Steel to steel connection. Torquing a fastener to 2/3 yield to get the proper tension will crush your fiberglass and you will never get the torque. The torque specified in most tables provides a preload of 2/3 yield. The compressive strength of what you are clamping must be able to resist that stress. (washers don't really spread the load unless they are super thick and hard. Also, like your boat, the chain plates are attached to an internal structure. Most go directly to a bulkhead or frame that is properly tabbed in or beefed up to take the stress and transfer it to the hull. I would be careful changing a structural design without buy-in from the designer or a naval architect. The rules for steel construction developed and used by structural engineers assume everything is steel. Peter Stockless, PE

[@nealgill3023]

Beautifully said!

[@declanosullivan2989]

I've been intrigued with the idea of dyneema rigging and was stumped about the chainplate conundrum. Mine (Contest 33) are internal and I try not to think about how much life is in them. When you consider how much glue is used to keep modern planes together I feel there must be a suitable solution involving modern adhesives and chainplates glued to a hull. Anyway I came across this video and I think the dyneema/fibreglass cookie might be the solution. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[@declanosullivan2989]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a6Kmqompe7Rji5Ysi=cq6Pw4nGbChyAW-T

[@RicardoAmaro123]

I have a question regarding the change from internal to external chain plates: Will this change affect the rigging geometry? In our case, we are talking about a shift of only a few centimeters (using the metric system). Is this small difference significant, or can it be considered negligible?

[@RiggingDoctor]

It is negligible but in a good direction. As the angle of the stay increases, the effectiveness of the stay does so as well. It would be an appreciable difference on a boat where you actually walk outboard of the stays on you way forward on the deck. Those boats will be moving outboard over 30cm and that will change the staying angle by a few degrees.

[@briankennedy606]

Interesting timing, I'm awaiting an order of 316 bar stock for my Cal 48 chain plates. 7 days and they can't even tell me if it will arrive at all. and it's paid for! I'm losing my first world minde🤯 to put it into context I'm in a major US city, supply chain and customer service are non existent. Tried three different vendors. OK thanks for listening, now I don't need to go to therapy 😂

[@carenclemmons5002]

It’s great getting to hear from you but I also miss Maddie and the new hire. When will we get introduced? Looking forward to hearing more on the project. Thanks

[@spray3716]

We used Fair Winds Fasteners and we recommend this company.

[@Steven-dt4zr]

Fairwinds Fasteners in Newport RI USA is a great source

[@codegame027]

You mentioned 316, titanium, bronze... but what about composites/carbon? I know it is kinda new and new-fangled but I know some cruising boats are starting to see it equip.

[@nigellyttleton7]

Is it possible you can make your standing rigging stronger than your actual hull.where is the best place for a failure on your rigging.I would rather lose the top of the mast than sink.

[@RiggingDoctor]

The targeted weak point is the clevis pin between the chainplate and turnbuckle. It acts as a fuse so that the boat and the mast will be spared.

[@nigellyttleton7]

@@RiggingDoctor so is that rusty iron cast iron, how do you know how weak or strong it is. I am a novice and I would be pretty worried, Rust just masks the problem. Isn't it very brittle under shock loads.I don't want to worry you of course because I don't really know anything other than high voltage

[@hatatfatcat]

I'm going to throw a spanner in the works as I am currently upgrading/replacing the rig on our 1979 Colvic sea rover 28 and the chain plates are internal and glassed into the hull but are angled 90 degrees at the top and under the deck. So the L shaped bracket is bolted and glassed into the side hull and the deck. Then there is a U bolt bolted through the fibre glass deck and into the deck portion of the chain plate. This means with our cutter rig the sheets run outside all the shrouds. Currently I am replacing the U bolts as they are the original 1979 bolts and very rusty with 9000kg breaking load Stainless U bolts. Even though the L shaped chain plates are steel they are not rusted as they are completely encapsulated. I don't know if this is worth considering for your boat as it would be very easy to manufacture angled plates but I would be happy to email you photos of our set up.

[@Michael-ed3dp]

Don't expect what you don't inspect. I applaud your choices.

[@PyeGuySailing]

Is there a difference of strength needed for rigging and chain plates when it comes to deck stepped vs keel stepped? If so, I know you want to convert to keel stepped so did you factor that in to the calculations?

[@robertpendzick9250]

You should talk to AMPCO metal fabricators. AMPCO is a bronze - Aluminum metal which is good salt water corrosion resistant and has a high tensile strength. Knowing what you need they may be able to come up with a solution in their materials. They also have the best NON-Sparking tools for boats.

[@nicholasbigney4143]

I second this. Ampco 8 would be great stuff. There is also a nickle aluminum bronze used by the navy for a lot of stuff that is tougher than stink!

[@bonniecavanaughsvcontent3565]

Really awesome I formative video guys... I now want to inspect mine on my 40' passport before I go anywhere 🎉❤😊

[@nodogrunner]

Hey, I think you addressed this question but, do insurance companies care about Dyneema rigging? Do they only care about age?

[@RiggingDoctor]

Ten years is all they care about.

[@nodogrunner]

Wow, thanks.@@RiggingDoctor

[@Ken-jh4bt]

Does anyone use Hastelloy C-22 for chainplates? They would be more expensive than 316L, but I would have thought would more or less eliminate corrosion concerns.

[@TheMikegall]

Fascinating, thank you 🎉

[@rm-61366]

Well done video. I wonder if Bacons in Annapolis might have some bronze material in their back room that you could scavenge?

[@curtisvillamizar6751]

One other reason to put chainplates inboard is to allow the jib to be sheeted in tighter when sailing to windward allowing you to point higher. This is only a benefit if the chainplates are at least a foot inboard. Its also not a benefit if you manage to sail downwind or only slightly forward of the beam nearly all of the time. Cruisers hope and plan to do that but end up sailing to windward at times despite their best efforts. Looks like Wisdom's chainplates were only slightly inboard so that was not a benefit and its only the asthetic. btw - I would just go oversized and stainless.

[@RiggingDoctor]

The chainplates are going to scoot about 2 inches outboard so it won’t have much of an effect on sheeting angles. If I oversize the current plates it won’t fit in my toggles! The plates are currently 1/2 thick 😅 If I weren’t so set in my ways, I would also do stainless, but I really want to do bronze so that they are done forever. Si Bronze chainplates with Si Bronze fasteners and then I never need to worry about them 😎

[@davecopp9356]

Sam Holmes also made a good video when he changed his chain plates on his Cape Dory to outside bronce ones.

[@CJSHM]

I definitely would not be taking advice from Sam "I sunk another one" Holmes.

[@davecopp9356]

@@CJSHM Did a boat of him really sink? What was it? Do you mind pointing me in the right direction of the video if there is one?

[@davepersich3035]

One of the most experienced sailors on KZbin, surely he must know a thing or two.@@CJSHM

[@melinda5777]

My kind of video! Great job! I have all confidence in you! ✝️🙏❤🇺🇸⛵👣🍍🤗

[@chrishofmann32]

Two thoughts - 954 aluminum bronze? - check w Bristol bronze in Rhode Island

[@MichaelBlake-qf3lo]

@09:25 "… if you take the diameter of each bolt plus _that space between each bolt_ …" Umm - I must've slept through the part where "that space between each" was defined. (Sad to say, I'm not handling old age very well¡ 😂 Can you help me with calculating the space between?

[@RiggingDoctor]

The math was just way too boring! Basically, the space between each bolt should be 3x the bolt diameter but if the metal chainplate is oversized you can get away with 2x the diameter, but safer on the side of 2.67x the bolt diameter. If you have 7 1/2” bolts you now have 3.5” of bolt holes and 7” of space between the holes so 10.5” total length of fastener area.

[@CJSHM]

If a designer is smart, the chainplates are visible for inpection. I pull mine for inspection and resealing every year. Mine are 50 years old, original to the boat, and are still good as new based on my recent syrveys. To be able to get close hauled, i need to keep my stays away from the fat sides of my boat. So all in all, I prefer interbal.

[@bet71414]

Have you considered carbon fiber for your chainplates?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I looked at integral composite plates but the boats finished interior complicates that. Can I do a plate of carbon fiber that I bolt to the hull?

[@bet71414]

IDK project Duracell laminated with fiberglass carbon fiber plates to the interior of their hull

[@bet71414]

I see what you are saying now, you’d have to remove a lot of stuff to get to the interior glass

[@dan2304]

What about synthetic chain plates, epoxy, carbon fibre, kevlar fibre, fibre glass.

[@MrSovetsky]

A total novis here. So the shipping containers are made out of steel thet rusts and the rust coat protects the structure. So i assumed that the marine industry would use this material to make chainplates?

[@RiggingDoctor]

It might have had something like that on it, but it’s also 55 years old. Shipping containers have a finite service life, after which they are discontinued and replaced. In my situation, exceeding the service life means repairing.

[@travis1555]

So riddle me this, why dont they just glass some carbon fiber or some synthetic material into the hull itself so there is no holes in the deck for water to get in.

[@bertstreet5299]

Ok ya got me whats up with 3 5 7?

[@RiggingDoctor]

It’s a Freemason thing that you learn in the 2nd degree 😉

[@carenclemmons5002]

@@RiggingDoctorWhich is what?

[@Jeraestone]

I would be Veering towards Bridge Building Principles and accessing Machine Shops that Supply such Projects 🤔

[@cbships5550]

fairwind fasteners should help you get the bolts

[@deborahdoyle6743]

You need to check and tighten your bolts every year or so.

[@markchodroff250]

I know you might have thought of this ? Call Leo from tally Ho project he is building a boat and went through all this already, he might give you a supplier for silicone bronze items !

[@grahamwheelock7497]

McMaster Carr,svendsens Marine california

[@Building_Bluebird]

Have you thought about building carbon fiber chain plates?

[@lorenzom7237]

good idea

[@RiggingDoctor]

Do you have any information on them? I have seen one type that looks like an inverted fan which would be great on a new build but would require too much disassembly to do on Wisdom.

[@Building_Bluebird]

@@RiggingDoctor yes the builds of carbon epoxy chain plates I've seen do have significant fans of tape layers mostly unidirectional up and down the hull which could be challenging given the cabinet in the way. Probably easier to do on a new boat build. But if you can remove and reattach the interior items, likely worthwhile. I've seen these: Youngbarnacles kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6fZqneanLqlqLMsi=QoYt1WigJvYJ-eIp Living on the ocean channel also did their own CF. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHmsY3R7rdKNea8si=l_p_tnTbD8IOvvBG I'm wondering if you could design external carbon fiber. Of course that would add a lot of grinding sanding fairing work on the hull.

[@Building_Bluebird]

@@RiggingDoctor in my mind, the biggest benefit of the carbon is that you can avoid any actual holes, completely filling the pass through with thickened epoxy and fiber layers.

[@lateralthinking86]

C&C used aluminum chain plates our boat was 1884 and they look like the day that come out of the factory. Is also lighter.

[@FuhKhoff]

I think internal is the way to go. I'd rather have water damage on my deck and bulkheads than my hull. Water damaged hull is a lot worse and much harder to repair strong enough to handle the load.

[@RiggingDoctor]

This is true if you have a cored hull, but if your hull is solid fiberglass, then you don’t have to worry about water damage if it leaks. Rotten bulkheads on the other hand are major damage on any boat

[@c.johnstonblacksmith]

McMaster Carr and they deliver fast!

[@anthonyrstrawbridge]

Sorry I wasn't paying attention but at the end I came up with NO MIL SPEC, AN, NAS BUT: CHESAPEAKE MARINE FASTENERS SILICON BRONZE THREADED ROD 3' X 3/4" 10 TPI SKU: FAS TR143BZ Regular price$107.81

[@z_actual]

'dont forget to like the video' not only do we watch it we are forced to like it

[@RiggingDoctor]

Just like your veggies!

[@jeffd7976]

check McMaster-Carr

[@RiggingDoctor]

They are amazing! It’s like a candy store!!

[@sailingtheworld2021]

lol traveling man..... yes I know why!

[@wdentondouglas]

Why not use synthetic chainplates?

[@RiggingDoctor]

I’m now starting to consider them very closely!!

[@DowneastThunderCreations]

👍👍👍

[@CAPTJohn47]

McMaster-Carr may not have what you need, but I'll bet they know who does.

[@bobcornwell403]

If I had a big boat, I'd want my chainplates visible on the outside and their bolts visible on the inside.

[@Lana_Warwick]

FYI - DIY Carbon Fibre Chainplates kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6fZqneanLqlqLMsi=ttMzwaIaGV3GkqBs

[@jeffdege4786]

The chainplates on the boat I'm refitting are external. Just bronze straps bolted to the topsides. I'll be removing them and stripping the paint, and then decide whether i need to replace them.

[@RiggingDoctor]

That’s what my goal is to have! Do you have stainless or bronze fasteners?

[@jeffdege4786]

@@RiggingDoctor Bronze. Boat was built in 1978, and I'm pretty sure this is original equipment.

[@JonMadsen70]

:)