How Death & Immortality work in Elden Ring

[@MetalCaffeine56]

I really was trying to figure how death works in this game but tbh there seems to be so many different ways as to how it works that it's borderline incomprehensible most of the time. I think it's ironic that one of the most important aspects of the lore is also the least explained.

[@mushroom11g55]

I see so many dead characters, why would they leave dead bodies in a game where death defies the laws of physics?

[@friendoftheoyster3906]

My idea is that we kill the demigod's bodies but their soul is returned to the Erdtree to be reincarnated or reborn in a slow process, their souls truly die when the erdtree is burned.

[@lololol924]

My head canon is that Marika, and the demigods fell out of grace from the two fingers after the shattering. Such an event is technically a betrayal to the Greater Will, so the two fingers decided to usher in a new order in the form of restoring grace to the tarnished and assigning the mission for one of them to become the new Elden Lord. (This is the default ending of the game) Since the tarnished are now "agents" of the two fingers, my head canon is they exclusively have the ability to slay the Demigods who are now enemies to the two fingers. Its less to do with "destined" death, and more to do with the Greater Will being so powerful, it just bypasses the rune of death entirely.

[@3000deaths1]

This idea is backed up by erdtree burial.

[@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962]

Could the runes be the source of immortality? We take the runes when we defeat each demigod, and each demigod was trying to take the runes from the others (thus killing them). Perhaps Morgott does not disappear until after the burning of the Erdtree because he is grace-given, and Grace is a shard of the Elden Ring (or rune), which would explain why we, who still see grace, live on and the NPCs who do not see Grace will die permanently when we kill them.

[@SwissArmyCheese]

I'm pretty sure that's what Miyazaki is referring to in the images where he's quoted. He says that we will learn as we play the games what keeps the Demigods alive, and their case of immortality is different than the Tarnished. The only thing we learn is they have Great Runes, and that's what we gain from them. So I would say you're correct. I've always thought this.

[@Ptollemios]

@@SwissArmyCheese This doesn't explain Rennala, who we definitely defeat but she's still alive even after we take her Great Rune. Its possible it was all an illusion, but is there proof in that? Or did she perhaps take us to her own little demi-plane to battle us? idk.

[@Blinkehyo]

@@Ptollemios I could have swarn another part of her being manifested in that fight. Because she was on the ground defeated and another voice/figure manifested above us

[@rashkavar]

@@Blinkehyo "Upon my name as Ranni the Witch, Mother's rich slumber shall not be disturbed by thee. Foul trespasser, send word far and wide of the last Queen of Caria, Rennala of the Full Moon." Coinciding with a black smoke rising from Renalla's amber egg (she has dropped it and is some distance away) that coalesces into a glowing (moonlight?) form of Rennala standing tall and proud, which eventually stops glowing as the background fades into the alternate space of round 2. From all that, I would guess that this is some protection Ranni laid upon her mother, triggered either by her being injured or by her dropping the egg (a thing that would only happen if she was being attacked, given the state we see her in). It conjures a form of Rennala at the height of her power, which we then face. Presumably, the flesh and blood Rennala is still lying on the ground trying to get back to her beloved amber egg - which explains why the death of the conjured Rennala doesn't destroy the one we use to handle stat reallocation. (Interestingly, being in service to Ranni at this point does not change the cutscene, suggesting this is not a direct intervention but rather a remotely triggered setup - otherwise you'd think she'd either address you as something other than just a nameless hooligan or at the very least it would impact your dealings with her after that point.)

[@lololol924]

I dont think so. There's a clear distinction between demigods and rune bearers. Demigods like Ranni have no rune and yet are capable of the immortality such that she needed the rune of death to slay her own body. Meanwhile you have rune bearers like Godrick who isn't even a demigod (just a descendent) so he shouldn't be immortal in the same way the others are.

[@puzzleheaded6195]

Lately I’ve been playing with the idea that the eclipse is the origin of Destined Death. If you look at the Eclipse Shotel, it bears a striking resemblance to the halfwheel cursemark found on Ranni’s and Godwyn’s corpses. It’s only when you bring them together and brandish the Elden ring that the eclipse finally happens and returns the principle of Death back into the Lands Between(Duskborn Ending).

[@SilverMont]

It does have a similar visual FX too, but that could just be re-use of assets

[@puzzleheaded6195]

@@SilverMont Yo SilverMont, been here since the good old DS2 days. Big fan. There’s some evidence in the game that Marika embodied Destined Death also. Using in game clues, “The Beast Eye” which we receive from Gurranq, aka Maliketh the Black Blade has some implications belonging to the Gloam Eyed Queen aka Marika the Eternal herself. The short version is that judging from Iji and Ranni’s dialogue, we know that when each Empyrean are chosen by their two fingers, they are given a shadow that will turn into a horrid curse should they ever betray the Greater Will. How do they know this? They must’ve seen it happen. The only other recorded Empyrean with a shadow in history is Marika and when she began to plot against the Greater Will(Enia mentioning her trespass), I believe Maliketh activated his kill switch and used Destined Death against her hence why we find her in the broken stony state she’s in which could also explain the red hue since Blaidd’s eyes glow red after he’s in the same state. It would explain why her corpse is missing her left eye, why the eye has a claw mark, and is surrounded by Marika’s stony flesh. Another question I asked myself is just how Maliketh was able to possess or lock away the Rune of Death if he’s just a shadowbound and not a demigod? What if he sealed Marika inside him who actually was a vessel for the Rune of Death, precisely into his Black Blade. Maliketh seems to only channel the power from his Blade which looks like it’s made from Marika’s torn half that leads to her missing eye where I speculate the stone covered Beast Eye/Gloam Eye originated from(keep in mind at which side of her face). This also explains the diminished power of the Godskins since they received their power from her, the Queen of Death, Godwyn being the Prince, and also why Hewg is tasked with creating God slaying weapons for her. Her corpse is likely dead since it’s impaled, her other half being sealed into Maliketh, meaning the Beast Eye that writhes could be the only part of her that still “alive”. Ew. Melina reveals to have the same eye, on the same side of her face in the lord of frenzy ending. Her previously Golden Eye loses its color because the Golden Order is no more and Grace is gone. Also interesting to note is that her Blade of Calling is fashioned after a Godskin Peeler. Interestingly enough, there’s also a lot of snake imagery with Marika. One example being the giant coil that’s always behind her with her Statues and also in the intro(look at her dress). If you look close at her necklace, you can see a snakes mouth with a small slivered tongue coming out(once you see it you can’t unsee it) and what do we know about the Godskins? Well they’re supposedly snakes too. Coincidence? Could be wrong but I started to connect a lot of dots once I played with this idea as well.

[@bloodfiredrake7259]

The centipede wheel has two halves just like the outer god of the deathbirds has 2 heads. The legs of the centipede are wing-like and similar to the death rite birds.

[@squinttt]

I think one of Witch Zullie's videos attempts to explain this: they say that 'destined death' was likely a form of true death, as in being completely erased from existence, where as death before this meant resurrection through the power of the erdtree. Part of the reasoning being that apparently Buddhists believe a death you will never come back from is the most desirable death, and thus resurrection or immortality is bad, but that's just what I remember and don't know almost anything about Buddhism outside of that. Of course outside of Buddhism's prominence in Japan, most Miyazaki directed games follow this concept, and it seems like Elden Ring is just the latest game to follow along. Don't really have a satisfying explanation for why there are exceptions that die and won't come back though.

[@SilverMont]

Interesting!

[@3000deaths1]

7:58 This text right here is actually backed up by the concept of erdtree burial. A ritual performed in order to grant immortal souls rebirth through the erdtree. I think destined death is simply the key to rebirth or the afterlife. Another thing to consider is mausoleums. They have the ability to draw on memories from fallen legends and such, perhaps the soul that still has yet to pass? How does spirit tuning get effected by the release of destined death then? The mausoleums still work despite destined death being restored, so perhaps rebirth isn't the case. There was a theory posed by either Vati or Smoughtown (I don't remember who actually theorized it. Hell, it could even have been that guy who made connections between Messmer and the base serpent with alchemical symbolism that was quoted by smough) that destined death is the cycle that rebirths you into who your are meant to be or something like that. Like, before radagon and marika were one, Marika was meant to be reborn into Radagon when she died, but she stopped it with her ascension and be riding of that path for good by sending in Maliketh. This stuff is so complicated man, I usually don't get stumped like this when it comes to lore. I swear, this is the only thing about the lore that doesn't click with me. edit: I'm pretty sure destined death being removed created the consequence of immortality via senescence immunity, at least in the case of the demi-gods. For the regular soldiers, they too may be immortal, just not in a way that makes them immune to cellular inefficiency like the demi gods are.

[@iamthereddemon20]

I asssumed that the sealing of destined death removed the ability to die naturally, like from old age or disease, and that things can still be killed if you put a big hole in them where there shouldn't be

[@gilvanvieira1815]

I think the demigods die because the Elden Ring was shattered,so theres no greater power commanding their fates, from the Golden Seed description "When the Elden Ring was shattered, these seeds flew from the Erdtree, scattering across the various lands, as if life itself knew that its end has come." Also its interesting to not their drop their remembrance wich seems similar to the ashes who arent absorbed by the erdtree. I also agree,normal enemies coming back is just for the sake of gameplay.

[@arkosthepanther]

I was thinking the reason things still respawn after destined death is unleashed is because it's not apart of the elden ring, and only after you beat the final boss and restore the elden ring does it have the chance to be restored

[@ayemjake]

If you're afflicted by destined death, your soul cannot return to the Erdtree where you can be revived/reborn/rebirth. Case in point, Godwyn. So technically in essence, Radahn still died in your hands, but he's not bound by destined death and his soul may have returned to the Erdtree after his death.

[@KogasaTatara514]

So Radahn might be able to be revived, you say?

[@WildBandit300]

Doesn't Enia (the old woman next to the two fingers at roundtable), who literally speaks two-fingers language, who speak the word of the greater will, says that the rune of death also goes by the name of destined death? I think the blackflame is derived from destined death, but the game already directly spells to you that the rune of death and destined death are the same.

[@SilverMont]

Correct! I think some people just missed it as a relatively small detail in the scope of the whole game. And for some reason (I have no idea why) there's a widespread belief that "the Tarnished can't die because the rune of death was removed from the Elden Ring." As in, with the Rune of Death sealed, noone and nothing can die. As if the entire concept of death was removed from the world.

[@shaunchristensen8376]

Seeing how Elden Ring is essentially Dark souls 2.0 I think I would have liked it better with the following. A central character with no class choosing, The game to be based around a Solaire type character, and a Truly fateful, melencholy ending.

[@mushroom11g55]

Good thing you're not in charge. Why would i want to be limited to a Solaire type character? Solar is not a mage, not an assassin, not a bleeder, why limit to 1 build like Sekiro? L Take.

[@lololol924]

My head canon is that Marika, and the demigods fell out of grace from the two fingers after the shattering. Such an event is technically a betrayal to the Greater Will, so the two fingers decided to usher in a new order in the form of restoring grace to the tarnished and assigning the mission for one of them to become the new Elden Lord. (This is the default ending of the game) Since the tarnished are now "agents" of the two fingers, my hwad canon is they exclusively have the ability to slay the Demigods who are now enemies to the two fingers. Its less to do with "destined" death, and more to do with the Greater Will being so powerful, it just bypasses the rune of death entirely.

[@jamessalter6592]

Just a great video thanks this clearified a couple of things for me, thanks Alex, I look forward to the next video.

[@SilverMont]

The game kinda made it even harder to explain than necessary by giving so many names for the same thing haha

[@jamessalter6592]

@@SilverMont I really thought that might be an issue for the lore hunters on KZbin.... The game is so complex and the smaller details get lost.... Such a good video to clarify topics like this Alex, thanks again.

[@barbarianzg8826]

6:11 I think it can be done..infact,one witch had did that exact thing..in a form of a specific ritual,where someone had to die in soul form,in order for someone to live in soul form only,forever? What happened to the Rune of Death when splitted? And most dazzling q for me is..why guidance of grace is leading us to distruction of something that gives life to tarnished? And what is that ritual which certain witch had performed? Btw,every your video is such an inspiration,don't stop making them..

[@SilverMont]

We've assumed that the guidance of grace might vanish during the endings, but it could be able to survive independently of Marika, too

[@damcmadlad2975]

I think the idea of grace is that if you're an average joe who merely worships the golden order then you are required to have an eardtree burial in order to be reborn meanwhile the tarnished are internsiclly born with the power of grace and there for not only do they not have need of an eardtree burial but they alsp don't have to follow the beliefs of the golden order at all this could also explain why tarnished are so looked down upon by the people within the lands between like imagine if you spent your whole life being loyal and devoted to the order so that you can be reborn while some mass murderering psychopath gets to be reborn without even being part of the faith

[@karayi7239]

I think a simpler more obvious explanation is perfectly sufficient. Firstly, somewhat unrelated to Destined Death. The respawning of enemies isn't literal respawning, the enemies you face are a subset of the "true" number of enemies, it's like a snapshot. It would make very little sense that leyndell barely has a 100 knights. So, lore wise, you never slaughter every single knight. This would also explain why SOME enemies don't respawn, because they're named specific enemies, they're not fodder. This is technically still a gameplay mechanic that doesn't translate to lore 1:1. More importantly, the sealing of DD does NOT grant immortality in a true sense. It removes destined deaths aka fate's death aka natural death. you smack a random villager hard enough and they die, plain n simple. The erdtree burial process does NOT revive you as you were, it's a method of PROCESSING DEATH, just like the ghost flames in past era. sort of like a ritual to commemorate death. So, when you kill a demigod, you just.. kill them.. because the sealing of the death rune NEVER granted them true immortality. In fact, we have a kind of being that has this kind of immortality, which are GODS. You NEED the rune of death to kill those beings(or the black flame which draws upon the DD, or +10/+25 weapon cuz placi built different). The point regarding morgott is a bit overanalysed. EVEN IF we grant that they're immortal, you'd assume that tarnished reduced morgott to the same state he reduced Radahn and other defeated foes, AT THE VERY LEAST, they'd be decimated unconscious and certainly incapable of speech. So the fact Morgott SPEAKS after defeating him simply means that tarnished never delivered the final blow. Then, Morgott succumbs to his injuries later. Simply put, Radahn DIES, meaning, he was never immortal. It befuddles me why people would make major lore points "gameplay only" when there is a perfectly good interpretation that doesn't reduce such a major aspect of the lore to "gameplay". I think it stems from a headcanon that "Rune of Death = Death is possible, Sealed RoD = Death impossible" which has COUNTLESS counter evidence and ZERO direct evidence.

[@saintjynr]

I'm not super sure about what exactly is the guidance of grace, but for what I understand, it seems to have some sort of inteligence behind it (the greater will, perhaps). So maybe when you are fighting against the demigods, since you are aligned with this inteligence's objective of retrieving the rune fragments and restoring the elden ring, it forcibly claims the demigods's souls into the erdtree so that you can aquire their rune fragments. I'm also not sure about if the godskin apostle's robes are made with, y'know, a (demi)god's skin, since Godwin's death is supposed to be the first recorded death of a demigod, but afaik we dont know what would happen if a demigod lost a fight that wasnt against a destined death wielder. Maybe the greater will didn't have a reason to claim demigods's souls since they were working for it, and only after the shattering it changed its mind

[@SilverMont]

I was under the impression that Marika was in control of the guidance of grace, but yeah it's not super clear

[@gilvanvieira1815]

Who controls the guidance of grace is Marika,not the greater will.

[@wisemansblood3898]

I think tarnished are the Graces way to try to Cill the Demigods again, because as we know the tarnished aren't really a part of the Landsbetween anymore right? So Because they are not a part of the world they can influence things in ways people of the World can't. Thats why we can kill demigods thats why we can do things others can't. Tarnished bring change into the Landsbetween that lost its ability to change on its own. I am not deep into the Lore though so idk but I think that without tarnished the Lands between would just continue to move on How they are at the start of the Game for Eternity until the Tarnished and in this case the player changes it.

[@SilverMont]

Marika kicked 'em out and then brought them back with grace, essentially. Grace is the "gold in the eyes" that also seems to enable effective immortality, and Marika can turn it on/off seemingly at will. She took it from her husband, Hairy Luke, and all his pals. Kicked 'em out , they all died, then it returned to them. Presumably their struggles in foreign lands were important. Or she just needed them absent whilst things went nuts in TLB.

[@PeterDB90]

But the game said that Marika "plucked the rune of death" from the Elden Ring, as in Elden Ring HAD the rune of death until Queen Marika removed it. And we know that the rune that you imbue the Elden Ring with has direct relation to the order of the Lands Between - i.e. at the very end, the type of rune that you repair the Elden Ring with determines the kind of world the Lands Between becomes, so it really, REALLY does feel like they are trying to say that if the Elden Ring has the rune of death in it, then everyone in Lands Between can die, but if it doesn't, then they cannot die, or at the very least are reborn after death.

[@SilverMont]

Rebirth would make sense, but the EB / Greater will are probably involved. Like siphoning souls of the dead to them via the tree etc. But the game is very vague with many things, and I think it's intentionally so. They say that the Elden Ring "commands the stars" but whether you take that figuratively or literally, it could mean many things. I do think it's quite clear that, whatever the rune of death does, it is also the black flame of godslaying. But there's nothing to say that it can't do multiple, nebulous things, like the One Ring.

[@natetaylor9002]

Destined Death can't be related to Tarnished 'grace resurrection' because the Tarnished continues to respawn even after Destined Death is unbound!

[@SilverMont]

Destined Death = Gloam Eyed Queen's Black Flame. Marika had it sealed away because it was the only, or one of the only things, that could kill a god. Grace is something Marika can grant to people. Obviously the game doesn't outright confirm that, but there's way more hints to that than anything else as to the nature of DD.

[@apolloisnotashirt]

is it possible Fia was guided to Gideon to revive him?

[@SilverMont]

Ah, prior to him coming back to the Lands Between? I imagine he was revived by the Grace of Gold as most of the others were, but who knows what's up with Gideon

[@christmasham4312]

DS1 and BB lore is the best… I do really like ER lore but it feels abit weak IMO

[@jbj2021]

It was t destined death that burned the Erd Tree. Is was the fire of the fire giants.

[@SilverMont]

That didn't open the way though, it only opened up the path to Destined Death. Look at the tree after using the giants fire on it, and then after using DD on it. And the line of dialogue I included about the black flame

[@richfrancis5251]

I do think Elden Ring lore is pretty badly put together when compared with other FromSoftware games, only DS2 did this badly, until scholar of the first sin anyway.

[@fsjof]

I mean, Fanservice souls 3 exists so...

[@jwilsthem.c3780]

​@@fsjof I've never understood why I hear this constantly in the Souls community Like why do you all hate Dark Souls 3

[@fsjof]

@@jwilsthem.c3780 Personally, I don't like it because the gameplay was reduced to smashing R1/circle like a monkey (I'm not talking about PvP) but mostly because the story is a complete insult, at the level of a bad fanfiction (well it's a fanfiction after all)...other than that it's fine

[@RockyRockthrow]

Aw it's a shame that you think so. I personally think it's much more interesting than DS

[@christopherealy8025]

Demigods can still die without destined death. I believe that the naming conventions here are important. Demigods are not immortal, but they are close to it. if they were truly immortal, Margit wouldn't be guarding Godrick, and the wandering mausoleums wouldn't exist. It seems that the power of destined death is simply to ensure death happens, not that death cannot exist without it. The only reason Godwyn didn't fully die in body was because of the ritual ranni performed, and not because of destined death's absence.

[@SilverMont]

They mention the "first recorded death of a demigod" which doesn't mean they couldn't die without DD, I suppose