How Did We Let Mechs & Co Happen?

[@TaehaTypes]

You know what ISN'T a group buy and already paid for, in stock, and ready to ship? Taeha Types Merch: taehatypes.com/store

[@brandonkw930]

rmendis is so well spoken and made so much of this very digestible. He clearly knows his shit backwards and forwards and gives me a lot of hope for the future of the hobby. Fantastic video

[@josephcamilleri2513]

was going to say the exact same thing

[@aaxk]

rmendis is amazing, I've worked with him on so many trades.

[@BathingPrimeape]

You guys did a great job breaking everything down without interrupting each other, I hope there is more vids like this. A lot of great points. I have a feeling Rama works also mismanaged peoples money. A lot of their keyboards in group buys have been made in the past and yet it’s still taking them years to fulfill. In the meantime they’re selling random merchandise and barely any updates on their main products.

[@brentclouse7791]

Same. I'm starting to regret giving them my money, though I (kinda?) understand the situation they're in. I'm definitely more educated now when it comes to group buy.

[@TaylorTDHouse]

KATE keycaps buyer here 👋👋 purchased September 30, 2021. No actual updates I've seen in over a year. RAMA is a fraud. Not usually the type of person to make these claims, but this is unbearable not getting any updates on these. This guy is selling CNC lighter cases, jumpsuits, hats, baseball bats, duck figurines, duck shoe covers for cameras, and old leftover keyboard stock but not fulfilling any of these KATE orders from 2021. Even has turned off Instagram comments as of late months because it's all people talk about in them. @Taeha can you help shed light on this and bring it to attention? This guy used to be one of the biggest mech sellers

[@crybabyteamo]

I saw the title, clicked in, and searched for keyword "Rama".

[@razer1158]

Taeha going full keyboard journalist mode, love to see it.

[@TaehaTypes]

haha not sure i qualify as journalist but thank you!

[@itsyagirlapes]

His voice is so calming and makes me feel safe haha

[@razer1158]

@@itsyagirlapesHaha yeah, that’s what always drew me to this channel and his vods in general.

[@absqueued]

He is our next @Coffeezilla

[@CryoftheProphet]

@@absqueued I mean, its not like every keebhead and their brother isnt complaining about something to do with keyboard on reddit these days.

[@fjmoneybagz]

I'm still going through this video but I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank both you and rmendis for this discussion on this topic! It's been incredibly informative and rmendis's insight on this facet of the hobby should be enlightening to both newcomers and veterans on how we came to be in this predicament as far as GBs are concerned. Not only does this go into the pitfalls of this system the community has in place but it also discusses the reasoning behind why it's a sort of necessity in our hobby and also how GBs were originally done as passion projects for enthused individuals. Please feel free to do more long form discussion like this one Taeha it's very much appreciated!

[@JumpCutJake]

Huge props to rmendis for doing such a thorough walk through of the Mechs & Co situation as well as the state of the hobby as a whole (in regards to GB’s). Also props to you Taeha for fostering this discussion with your platform and status in the hobby.

[@Harry_Smallwood]

Fantastic video. As a long time lurker, I wanted to create a YT account just to comment and say thanks for the work both you and rmendis put into this. I hope that people that have the mindset of "GB always bad/vendor profit always bad" will watch this video with an open mind and listen to what rmendis is saying. Starting @39:10, I agree that educating and creating visibility would be fantastic!

[@BakusanDayo]

Coming from the Japanese Figure hobby, we pre-order months in advance ALL THE TIME, and they are ALL fulfilled. I am just not sure why we are still stuck with GB when pre-order is so much better.

[@Kentanimationnnnnnnnn]

alternate title: Two guys to listen to while lubing up your switches

[@MrSkullhead0]

These vids are wicked awesome. Your voice is ASMR and It’s always nice to get news swirling around the community

[@TaehaTypes]

Thank you for the support!

[@MatthewEncina]

What an insightful conversation, and really pleasant to listen to in the background. I hope you do more of these!

[@cannolisquid5921]

This was a fantastic and well thought out discussion on the topic of GBs, the community, vetting of community figures, etc. Really enjoyed watching this!! Thanks Taeha and rmendis!

[@fashionweek0]

This is some good ass content, love how much effort you and rmendis both put into this. Super informative and very important conversation for such a fast growing hobby

[@sushiburps]

It's wild how Geekhack basically stepped in like the Federal Reserve handling a collapsed bank.

[@CryoftheProphet]

Instead of punishing the people who suck, everyone now has to meet some arbitrary rule to be able to market with good intentions.. People always want to control everything, this hobby sucks these days..

[@lavachemist]

@@CryoftheProphet You can't punish a dead company.

[@purplelord8531]

@@CryoftheProphet very much arbitrary wishful thinking...people want to control(moderate) the controlled(moderated) spaces, and people flock to these spaces because moderated environments are inherently more stable. Good luck working with an uncontrolled community

[@CryoftheProphet]

@@purplelord8531 the most successful economies happen with the least amount of regulation. That’s just reality. People want the freedom to do what they want. Vetting people doesn’t do anything because the people who are scamming people have been running successful buys until they don’t. The reason is that most people who end up running away with the money do it because eventually they re just in over their heads. You can’t predict when it’s going to happen and if you start trying to make rules, it’s just going to push the sales and innovation to the bigger corporations and the diversity and creativity will die along with smaller creators. It’s stupid. Just look at geekhack. That place used to be the best place in the world for any and everything keeb related. Now.. not so much.. same with Rmk, now all you see is garbage boards, tacky setups and everything the hobby wasn’t suppose to be..

[@unixtreme]

@@CryoftheProphet regulation is good for the consumer.

[@IranianOyibo]

This was very educational. I actually had very little understanding of how group buys worked vendor-wise. Thank you both for taking the time to make this.

[@TheWrongButton]

Awesome video Taeha. One point of constructive criticism: Subtitles baked into the video are great, but they're even better when they're uploaded as a subtitle/closed caption file alongside your video so that people can turn them on/off, change their size, etc. through the KZbin player. Keep up the good work, looking forward to your next video :)

[@SDXStudio]

​@NonSlimy I mean, sure, but anything related to video production takes time. Also, they already had the captioning. Taking the time stamps from whatever method they used and placing it into an SRT file wouldn't take 5 hours, unless you're bad at it.

[@TheWrongButton]

@foSoT I am aware that it takes a long time for subtitling, but Taeha has already done subtitles for the whole video, they're right there on the screen. My point was that if he is going to spend time subtitling it can prove more beneficial to the audience if it's delivered in a different format (via a file instead of being rendered on top of the video)

[@belisariustirto]

honestly like the way these look more than the youtube captions but thats just me

[@DamnAwesome]

Such an awesome conversation you can tell rmendis really cares about the community!

[@kawaiikeyboards]

its sad what the hobby has become now, but I'm glad you and rmendis have this discussion regarding the situation. I think part of the problems also came from us (the buyers) who wants something which nobody knew how the end results would be after the group buy ended. We just pour in money to vendors carrying the keyset or keyboard kits which we wanted and hope it arrives on our doorstep, and don't really know what happens behind closed doors. Honestly I wish there were more transparency from manufacturers regarding how to group buy is going. Sometimes the manufacturers covering up the issues which in turn leaves vendors having to answer the buyers without any info. With GMKs case, there are just way too many keysets which they ran which some might still be in queue even after 2 years after the group buy ended. So all in all, I feel there should be more direct interactions between manufacturers, vendors and customers so that we're all on the same page. Also with so many products out now (yes that does include clones), why do we need more group buys lol? Maybe private GBs should be more of a thing where the risks are minimal, while pre orders should be the norm for most big vendors if they really want in on the profits. Overall, just have fun and never get fomo on everything. I had to learn it the hard way and currently taking a rest from buying stuff in the keyboard hobby. Keyboards are expensive and I definitely have more than enough keyboards with me to last several generations... 😅

[@JazzEspiritu]

I appreciate this conversation a ton. I was supposed to get GMK Earth Tones from Mechs & Co and I felt like we were soooo close to at least getting that one done... I'm just so sad about it. At the very least the community is coming together to recognize this as a problem and hopefully find some resolution. It gives me some peace that we can hopefully make things better.

[@TheGreyOx]

Very insightlful, thank you for having rmendis speak his mind, his knowledge is so crucial to the community.

[@alfred.clement]

I've went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole back in 2011 when it really wasn't popular and there weren't many vendors selling mechanical keyboards. I think a year after is when I started seeing many group buys for mechanical keyboards that was originally conceived as a cost-effective method for enthusiasts to secure a keyboard at reduced prices. However, in recent times, this concept has been overshadowed by profit-driven motives, with group buys often not providing the cost savings they once promised. Instead of fostering a sense of community and mutual benefit, it seems that the original ethos of group buying has been diluted, leading to prices that aren't significantly lower than individual purchases. Edit: Unfortunately I've been detached from the mechanical keyboard community for a very long time now, ever since I've noticed price discrepancies of mechanical keyboards sold by many different trusted international multi-channel retailing vendors. The prices for mechanical keyboards were significantly higher in the western market compared to the market in Asia.

[@childishcamaro]

Thanks for spreading info & looking out for us! Love this

[@Xerpocalypse_]

Been listening to this as I work, thank you so much for making this video. You know things are serious when the GH and Reddit mods form a coalition to tackle this. I sincerely hope the community can move forward as a whole and be more transparent about best practices.

[@bren.r]

Happy to be a loyal Mode Designs customer. They’ve always delivered on promises and have superb customer support. The amount of work they put into various things speaks for itself.

[@plinx.]

mode had my heart when i saw there was a syringe with 205g0 inside for my mode80. Still use the tools they provided today

[@AtomicSymphonic]

This has now occurred to LoobedSwitches, based in Texas. Except the vendor themselves were apparently only paying manufacturers half of what was owed. Now (unexpectedly for the vendor) those manufacturers refused to produce any product unless they were paid in full. They thought it was "industry standard practice" to pay half now and half later. They have become insolvent as a result. Whoops!

[@LeTheory]

This reminds me of AuraMech from Canada, hopefully more is done to give warning about vendors that are having issues

[@Fun_Plum_]

Great interview! I love the build videos as well as your more recent form of content.

[@allaricluy]

RAMA WORKS!

[@blackmidnight2178]

Please cover this disaster company. I still have money from two years ago tied up in their group buys and there's no hope of getting my money back. I want to contact the company doing their manufacturing but don't have the first clue where to start looking.

[@gorkskoal9315]

@@blackmidnight2178 You should have told the bank years ago about the scam. If you didn't that's on you.

[@blackmidnight2178]

@@gorkskoal9315 That's not how it works. Group buys regularly take around a year, which is beyond the regular chargeback window. Updates were being provided and the first product I ordered from them arrived, even if it was after significant delays. Based on that, I believed the company would fulfill subsequent orders since you know, we've already gotten products from them? But no they decided to post false updates to cover themselves legally against credit chargebacks until it was too late for them to be filed. I hope you spend some time doing research instead of looking like an ignorant brainlet next time you try talking to someone online.

[@JellyEater28]

honestly it was very good being able to hear from voices like rmendis!

[@danman00727]

What happened with Mechs & Co is one of the reasons I sparingly ordered from vendors bookmarked all my orders and checked regularly for vendor fulfillment updates. Even then it's still a gamble every time. A fun gamble.

[@norrdal]

During the pandemic, I think early 2021, I joined my only two group buys. One keyboard, and one keycap set that I helped design novelties for, and I absolutely loved the process. It was super exciting, but also kind of wild to send several hundred dollars to random vendors, but around 1.5 years later I finally held a beautifully made custom keyboard in my hands that I still use every day and it was one of the best purchases I have made. I loved the community aspect and that things worked out so well, just based on trust. It's so sad to see things go south like this, but it's also not really surprising. I hope that the community can recover from this and get to a safer place where a lot of people can enjoy this great hobby.

[@_4444P]

Thank you so much for the subtitles, super appreciated!

[@kleanse]

Great video, and the embedded subtitles are amazing. Did you sit down and type all that?

[@jojonokimyonabouken7615]

This was a GREAT video. Loved it. Hate group buys. Love the both of you.

[@HubertTheMad]

Looking forward to listening to this after work. Hope you're doing well, sir! Thanks for the recent uptick in videos and streaming.

[@TaehaTypes]

Thank you for the support!

[@Fran-lf2hp]

This type of high quality informative content is really something that we need to see more of in the community. Thanks for the awesome video and bringing an awesome, knowledgeable guest to speak on the issue!

[@kelownatechkid]

Amazing to see rmendis on here

[@thediecastdrag9359]

Just found a Mechs & Co sticker while cleaning out my office... I guess I'll throw it in the trash lol. (After I use it to clean the cat hair off my shirt) 😛

[@lawrencejob]

43:00 It only seems risk free until someone sues or otherwise enforces liability of the person who took the money. A contract is formed at the exchange of value whether it's an individual or a business.. Nobody has tested the risk, so it feels risk free.

[@chadzero]

This video alone is leagues better than soundtests and streams - everyone does that, no one is doing this (blacksimon being the only other one calling people out / talking about issues)

[@DamnAwesome]

Ayyyy another blacksimon fan in the wild!

[@Instinct0425]

simon is definitely my favorite creator in the keyboard community and i definitely appreciate other long-form, in-depth content like this

[@lastshoelace]

Nice explanation of everything. My only gripe is the addict analogy; that’s not at all the same thing.

[@TheMike90a]

This was an absolutely FANTASTIC video. Thank you for doing this.

[@hanshans387]

I haven't quite finished the video, so maybe you address this (i will watch it all though), but how is a GB substantially different from a kickstarter campaign? if GBs raised their funds via kickstarter (or indiegogo or whatever), would it give them more legitimacy?

[@aaditshah7816]

Big fan of this video style, informative and entertaining.

[@nikocayetano1805]

This happened to me too with the Charue Design Supernova

[@whaaaat_scoobs]

Glad, as a newcomer, to hear that CK and NovelKeys are both reputable. I have a GB with CK and was worried tbh. NK also seems legit but then again I also thought M&C was legit and they turned out to not be, I had LITERALLY no clue and could easily have gotten burned as I was considering buying extras of the Lazurite set right before they collapsed. Had I, I bet they’d never have shipped. Either way, we def need more transparency and thank you for having this discussion on video for those of us who are new, and thank you both for your hard work trying to make it better for the future. A+ content right here

[@faranocks]

46:50 Also with GMK, keycaps are made basically right before they are fulfilled, NOT when the order is placed. They have almost no risk until waiting until a few weeks before they start manufacturing to demand payment (yes some stuff has money like dyes, but the payment can be kicked down the road a bit in most cases, especially for customers with extremely large volumes) This might mean vendor X places 12 orders, and pays for them in full, order 13th comes around, they can't pay in it's entirety, but GMK thinks that's fine as they won't get to that order for another 8-12+ months, so it's fine if it takes a few.

[@meowmix23]

Great video, I like this style of content in the current atmosphere of the community.

[@wharfroach]

wow, this was immensely insightful! would def be interested to see a hibi or osume spotlight in the future.

[@lsw4852]

Great long format video. So much useful insight to consider when navigating the current climate of the keyboard hobby. Perhaps this isn't as easily digestible for new hobbyists, but the content will definitely help me point newcomers in the right direction.

[@quocanhhbui8271]

love this kind of video. keep the work rolling sir

[@blight_]

great video, enjoyed every second of it haha. rmendis truly is legendary

[@olo398]

been in/out of the hobby for 8 yrs....sucks shit like this still happens, basically growing paints into an emerging new market to mass consumption. great to see so much good stuff readily available! damn we old!

[@hlsby]

Very insightful! I'd like to see the perspective from other vendors as well if possible! Thanks for the great content as always, Taeha!

[@schulzg]

I don't know much about the subject, as I am still listening. The only kb I know about that has done this is the extremely praised Wooting (don't have one), but is this kind of about companies like them?

[@vpfxms313]

Okay like towards 47:10 talking about manufacture not policing etc. I still think that manufactures still hold responsibility for their projects and they get to see who are the vendors and who they expect to get money from etc. and I feel like it doesn't make sense that big company like GMK doesn't even check if they got paid from a vendor to continue making certain orders. It would only make sense if GMK didn't catch the attention of companies like Mechs & Co. to become one of the vendors for keycap sets. And if GMK was recognized for orders only by other vendors exclusively.

[@cheeeqo]

Wish there was this response with the rukia gb

[@la_ants]

It's nice to get more context on what's going on as a whole since the M&C debacle

[@1.0xY.m0r0n]

I recently got into the keyboard hobby and I just pulled the trigger on my first group buy from cannon keys. I'm hoping it goes well as group buys are honestly a big barrier. The whole aspect is really sketchy... and I understand why they are a thing but there must be a better way.

[@JYMBO]

Mechs & Co was my first ever group buy, i don't see myself ever buying one again

[@ericw.1620]

44:40 Osume does in stock sales and fwiw they're always sold out and essentially all my friends that have joined the hobby recently have osume sets, both because of the designs and because of the availability.

[@Uryftw]

Fantastic content! Thank you very much for the insight :)

[@cavemanlefancy3373]

wait can anybody tell me if theyre coming back? i still need a whole set of tiramisu gmk and aegyptus deskmat. am i not going to get them?

[@Klayhamn]

Thanks for this cool analysis from a knowledgeable trustworthy person.

[@olofljunggren1189]

It's interesting being from the "country of the ombudsman", Sweden. Pretty sure the group buy model would be illegal here lol, or at least the risk would be on the vendor not the consumer. MaxGaming, which is like the only "vendor" in Sweden (they do more than just keyboards), run their business like any other online store, only doing in-stock and pre-orders (the same way you pre order a game for example). Because they're a more mature business, it isn't strange for them to actually keep stock. They also sell things that are group buys, but THEY are the ones making the order and then selling it as a limited in-stock item.

[@braxtonmay391]

Really well said!

[@j___7052]

amazing discussion with the legendary rmendis

[@corporealghoul]

Major props to canon keys for saving my mechs and co terror below gb.

[@Thenamesro]

I ordered a key set October 2019 and just got it delivered last week.😒

[@christy2911]

I have no trust in GBs anymore. I ordered a GB deskmat from Mechs & Co and never received it around the time they said it would ship, so I looked into it and other people did not receive thier's as well and then I discovered all the drama in the discord, with Mechs & Co not taking any accountability to update people on their GB orders. I knew at that point I was never gonna see that deskmat lmao. I feel lucky in a way that I didn't lose as much money as other people, but after the whole experience I will never order through a GB again. I just feel so terrible and awful for the people who were out more money than I was.

[@paradox8038]

Hi Taeha, where is the best place I can reach you in accordance to an issue that I am currently facing with the community and a company within it? I do not want to mention any names publicly here as I would prefer to speak to you and give you the information. Thank you!

[@_IanOfEarth]

I've never been so happy to be wrong about monthly uploads. Stoked to watch this dude.

[@TaehaTypes]

LOLLL

[@lavachemist]

Don't spend any money on a group buy that you aren't willing to lose. I would guess that for most people that means don't spend any money on group buys. If everyone did this, the companies that are making good business decisions would transition to investing money in inventory and the others would disappear.

[@ChrisPanton]

Ya, it really sucks when you become a victim of losing out of hundreds of dollars. GMK Astral Light was mine through Project Keyboard. But yet months before I had my GMK Retrowave order get delivered.

[@chaikey]

I like this format, very interesting topic and discussion. Good on you two for addressing the growing pains of the hobby. Really hoping you keep up with this type of content papa Taeha

[@Amiro05]

LETS GOOOOO 1 HOUR TAEHA TALKS + INTERVIEW

[@dogbert32]

The thing I find really missing from this conversation is the fact that this is a problem that is pretty well solved in other crowdfunding communities such as boardgames and what can the keyboard community learn from them.

[@grsamael]

Mykeyboard has issues as well btw, i am still expecting the GMK Jags set and on their discord the notion is "hold on till we sort out the situation, there is a cash flow issue" I really hope they manage to float the boat, they have been solid till this year and probably the biggest vendor in the EU. In the EU we have another issue as well, refunds are legal and eligible, so lots of ppl got tired of waiting for GMK for example to deliver and they asked for a cancelation and refund. Now vendors are legally bound to issue the refund but have no cash to do so, or/and no cash to pay GMK for the rest of the MOQ of the sets... Its a really bad situation, as vendors never actually had the capital or experience for a business that exploded to be so big in the past 2 years...

[@rmendisify]

This is definitely a challenge for both vendors and consumers.

[@jasonnguyen6887]

Project keyboard next up?? where is bingsu r2??

[@replacement6386]

This is a great Ted talk, ngl

[@airiliacats3873]

2 years into KL-90 and I'm still waiting

[@diane519]

this is very intresting, thanks for sharing. I have been MIA in the keyboard community, didn't know this was going on. btw is that an Oliver typewriter in your background, which model? is it in working condition? I joined a typewriter community last year in Dec and now own 2 typewriters.

[@jscf92]

Really interesting content. Please keep them coming.

[@DJE7008]

There is a thing that can be used as cerficate and oversight. Its called ISO an compliance cerfication system. One of the ISO certificat that might fit the bill is: ISO 37000:2021

[@aestheticascendancy]

I ordered a Loki65 from Mechs & Co when it was in a group buy. Will this board be sent? Should I contact them or am I going to have to address this issue with my bank now because that is a few hundred dollars were talking about. Do not want to lose this money as I haven't received any product at all yet.

[@n3k0lai]

talk to your bank asap, mechs & co is dead

[@newagedrama562]

My first ever group buy was GMK terror below...

[@newagedrama562]

Taeha got me into the hobby btw. I was hooked right away. I shopped forever to build my first keyboard. Space 65, Zaku switches, and the GMK Terror Below; or so I thought. I've waited two years for my keycaps and still haven't gotten them. I was disappointed to say the least. I ended up getting Botanical R2 in the end. I'm happy with the build, but the Old Gods are sad.

[@clackety_]

Damn, don’t let Mech and co’s Greed break your love. It’s totally worth it.

[@essensse]

@@clackety_or run and never look back while you still have a thing called a wallet

[@clackety_]

@@essensse resell value goes crazy

[@guhjie]

so many established companies use kickstarter campaigns to fund their new product lines and its the same question I always ask...you made millions on the last one why do you need to keep using kickstarter...and the answer is because they have no reason not to

[@horeyezen]

I just started the hobby this year and this video is incredibly informative and interesting! Thanks for putting this together Nathan!

[@coleydotmp4]

This was a great video. It's one of the big reasons I never pushed keycap group buys in my videos. Minimum order quantities, the massive list of GMK sets that are in the queue, the fact there's only a few factories in the world that can mass produce quality keycap sets and they all have massive queues... It's a tough situation for everyone. But this is inexcusable. Vendors should've anticipated the MK boom bubble bursting, maybe it's a bad idea to have 30+ unfulfilled group buys going at once.

[@coleydotmp4]

And mendis, if you're reading this, thanks for the work you do in the hobby. I'm sorry that people got really mad at you for warning about that group buy.

[@djbakasan]

Separate from M&C but in a similar vein, anyone know what the hell is going on with RAMA? It’s a meme at this point that the guy will release anything- vinyl figures, baseball bats, fucking overalls- anything but the keyboards and keycaps that he took orders on 2+ years ago. Are we now beyond the point of incompetence and now into actual malice and theft?

[@SLiX-thatguy11m-]

Honestly I think manufacturers should be more involved, but as it is with vendors, there's no motivation or incentive to do so. And that's just limited to branded manufacturers. That's why I think KBDFans is going the right way, obviously we still don't know the relationship between KBDFans as a vendor/designer and the manufacturers they use, but I like seeing that they do confidently offer items in stock by putting up initial investment themselves.

[@hounddogzepp]

Dang. It really just makes you wonder "where are the adults in the room."

[@theletterzyy]

woah you weren’t lying about grinding out youtube videos mr taeha!

[@ADoc1980]

My man showed up with a PPT presentation. 😆

[@TaehaTypes]

LMAO forreal though

[@fikarbc]

Does anyone have an invitation link to the mechMarket discord? Thanks

[@RosayRides]

So if i put money in a gb with them, did i just lose my money?

[@TaehaTypes]

Depends on who you put money in, some of the projects were able to be salvaged

[@takioarima1477]

Soooo I'm not getting GMK Tako?

[@pipe_dev_null]

This was an extremely informative and interesting video. I love what you’re doing lately, Taeha. And great guest!!

[@thatUtsavRatti]

I wish you’d talked about more than one vendor. For example, Prevail failed but did so transparently. Nevertheless, how would these proposed practices have helped them succeed? That sort of case study would have been interesting. Perhaps a follow-up episode?

[@zekedgtl]

This is a great topic to discuss, nice work Taeha