How DLC Can Ruin Fighting Games: Pitfalls of DLC Fighters

Here's the Pitfalls of DLC Characters, and how they change their meta...
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[@smashmonkey6304]

7:50 On Min Min, it should be noted she was nerfed a shit ton since her release. It’s a big reason she isn’t seen as broken.

[@GarnitrexGaming]

The nerf on her nair on shield was a godsend

[@Chillaccino1]

nah she’s still top 10 solely bc of how her kit was designed

[@GarnitrexGaming]

Yeah I think so too.@@Chillaccino1

[@casablancahunter1606]

Steve is broken, but he's still only a small fraction of Brawl Meta Knight's power lol

[@ani_star9729]

I really don’t like Kazuya’s design at all, he’s just so polarising. He’s both too weak and too strong and it’s not really fun for either player because if you’re Kazuya you just struggle trying to get in and if you’re fighting him you make one mistake and get punished severely.

[@Freeraining-og7uh]

his move set is to bland same with street fighter characters too

[@Rough_Estimates]

high risk reward imo

[@ultimatenoir]

@@Freeraining-og7uh Bland? LMAO

[@CipherKnighto]

@@Freeraining-og7uhhell no 😂

[@BasicLee_]

​@@Freeraining-og7uh Just say you don't like fighting games

[@Onion38]

Man its crazy how 5 of the 12 dlc characters are top tiers

[@BirdieSenpai]

I really like just how huge Smash is now, but I often miss the days when Smash was a celebration of Nintendo's history and not a competition to add the biggest-name non-Nintendo character as DLC.

[@Mr__Jack]

To be fair, the only Nintendo franchises not represented with a fighter that deserve it are probably Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven. Many of the notable Nintendo absentees were added in Ultimate. It makes sense that third parties are more prioritized now.

[@bemiatto67]

Fr. Third parties ruined the series

[@orangeslash1667]

@@bemiatto67 I disagree, you see the reason the N 64 and Gamecube was overshadowed by the Ps1 and Ps2 is because their are more third party options. By adding more third parties in Smash, it's a reminder that there are alot of third party games on Switch.

[@vallatoja67]

nintendo players when they get exactly what they want

[@Lexicon865]

The biggest reason imo as to why the DLC characters are really strong is simply because the base game characters aren't given enough. I hope the next game has a smaller roster but have every character, new and old, have the same effort and design as the DLCs in Ultimate, or at least the ones in Fighters Pass 2

[@MidwestArtMan]

I heard an explanation of why dlc is often so strong, and it was that by the time it comes out, the devs know very well how the game is played. Before it's released, they have a limited amount of playtestung, and don't completely jnow how strong different mechanics will be.

[@harleypippenger3255]

Yet they didn't nerf any of them

[@RaheemRollair]

Third party DLC fighters can make players from other brands jump right in, but they can also be the perfect anomalies like a nightmare to someone’s dream. There’s a difference between making them worth their buck and giving them so many options and power boosts while leaving the initial low tier fighters with so little.

[@TheSeventhForce]

KoF13's one of my favorite examples of this phenomenon: There was a set of DLC characters so good (Especially Mr.Karate) people started joking that they were pay to win characters because of how the meta warped around them. Great video, by the way!

[@StanleySophana]

What's more hilarious is that people wanted Steve to be in Smash and then realized how broken he is and now he's banned at some tourneys

[@ragames7320]

Not really. Nobody except Hungrybox is banning steve anymore. Also Steve is not like S4 Bayo.

[@shadowednight1600]

A true monkey's paw

[@orangeslash1667]

@@shadowednight1600 Steves weakness is that he's very slow. Wait for him to attack you, that when he struggles.

[@sonicultimateyt1090]

This is why people say "be careful what you with for." Things like these happen.

[@sonicultimateyt1090]

Imagine how broken waluigi would be if he's in the next smash game as a dlc fighter

[@predeterminedtornado]

Great vid! I thought it was really cool how you not only talked about Smash, but also numerous other FGCs. You were so right about all that was said. Mad respect for you bro!

[@Zombie4583]

Im ok with dlc characters as long as it doesn't become pay to win

[@majoraxx2427]

Cold sweats from being a smash 4 Kirby main fighting pre patch bayo. Good times 😂

[@oOTheMastaOo240]

Ironically i think kirby did relatively good against bayo and cloud in smash 4 (idk about pre patch bayo tho)

[@majoraxx2427]

@@oOTheMastaOo240 by the time the nerfs came I already abandoned my Kirby bros and switched to the dark side (Bayo)

[@oOTheMastaOo240]

@@majoraxx2427 you were one of the smart ones

[@Mr__Jack]

@@oOTheMastaOo240Cloud, absolutely not. Kirby’s stubby limbs made it easy for Cloud to keep him out of reach and his floatiness meant he would get up aired to death the moment he found himself above Cloud. Not to mention that Cloud could just charge limit and force Kirby to approach. Kirby wasn’t the secret Cloud counter nobody thought of.

[@oOTheMastaOo240]

@@Mr__Jack ive played many many clouds in tournament and even the best cloud in NY (Ralphie) and took a game, I'm saying this out of experience. What you said about kirby getting stuck in the air from upairs and getting camped by limit is definitely true, but getting camped and stuck in the air isnt only a cloud issue, its a universal kirby issue, and there are plenty more characters that Kirby has a much harder time with than Cloud What made a MU good for kirby in smash 4 was if kirby could combo them, edgegaurd them, and abuse crouching against them. And as it turns out, kirby can do all 3 of those things against cloud, and cloud doesn't have oppressive projectiles either. Kirby also has a very easy 0 to death combo on cloud that im not sure you are aware of Characters like Sonic, Meta Knight and Mewtwo were much harder

[@mochiman6307]

MK11 Player here, my main was joker, spawn, and robocop, all characters in game can be good if done right, although they are the ones I have the combos memorized, with them, I am essentially a monster on the battlefield, without them, I have to resort to Baraka

[@Sjono]

0:18 Darth Vader and Yoda in Soul Calibur IV were the first DLC characters in a fighting game 2008 isn’t that long ago

[@andreazhab]

I like this video, however, as a competitor, I feel like there's some level of misinformation on your description of the fighters' strenghts and what makes them as good as they are

[@applewind9318]

I feel the powercreep in smash (and other long running franchises) is starting to show the real issue of the philosophy regarding balance within the games. Let's balance the entire cast just to add new characters that feel like they skipped past that process and for fans of older characters it feels like they been abandonded. You don't need gimmicks to be strong just look at Sonic being bland as fuck but the "spectacle" of newer characters just show how poorly they are doing the 3rd parties in terms of Gameplay.

[@jakethedog1483]

My boy Sonic never got that redesign to make him less lame...

[@someaccount5200]

I mean, YL is still solid enough, the only issue that plays against him is that he has a hard time playing against characters that outrange him, but is even or favored against everyone else

[@orangeslash1667]

@@jakethedog1483 Sonic maybe a fast character but there are moments in his history that he can't rush through easily. Metropolis zone from Sonic 2, Sandopolis zone from Sonic3 &K, Lost World from SA 1, Crazy Gadget hard mode from SA 2, Biolazard from SA 2, and the last two bosses from Sonic advance 3.

[@Alonzone]

I hate Kazuya more than Steve. He all of his attacks deal more than 12 damage, he’s heavy as hell, and worst of all he has an invincible dash. Oh and on FD, he’s unstoppable.

[@Freeraining-og7uh]

adding Steve was an obvious mistake

[@sonicultimateyt1090]

Be careful what you wish for

[@eyssa7630]

Akuma Actually isnt a DLC fighter in Tekken he is in the Base game and even part of the lore

[@KyleBruce99]

DLC characters also have the extreme benefactor of being worked on one at a time. Its not like Ultimate developing a base roster of 70+ characters at once. No specific character gets hyper focused attention. DLCs get their entire moveset and all their gimmicks mixed in after, so it feels strange. Another big thing too, is not only do the DLC characters get more attention, the base roster characters who evens tood a chance usually get nerfed to oblivion as well. I wish smash in particular would just buff characters and leave others as is.

[@elflaco4171]

drop a hug for ma boi honest content :D

[@OmegaLesPaul]

My man did you just say flaucet 💀

[@lordtheodore13]

nobody's perfect 😔

[@BuddyHolly94-e4j]

DLC can be handled the right way but don't make them overpower juggernauts anyways amazing vid honest ❤.

[@WatchVidsMakeLists]

DLC Privilege is real folks 😔

[@softchirps]

You really glossed over some the nerfs like Pichu and Minmin

[@rolfum7156]

after the same exact thing that happened in smash 4 started to happen in ultimate I've started to believe nintendo does this on purpose so people go to the next new smash game faster when they eventually release; so they never have a situation like melee ever again

[@Mohammed1000real]

Nintendo needs to stop this. Did they learn nothing from the death of Smash 4? Also Smash 4 is more visually better than Ultimate.

[@THP22342]

Damn its crazy how Honest, Honest Content is.... okay sorry. I had to

[@GameFreak839]

To be honest, yeah. All of Fighters Pass 2 especially completely threw off the balance of the game and I really hate that. Min Min has stupid range that invalidate 80% of recoveries in the game, Steve ruins the game entirely with how he can do practically anything he feels like, Sephiroth has some of the most oppressive defensive options in the game and can kill you in 3 hits if you aren’t careful especially with OWA, Pyra & Mythra’s only weakness is recovery but they excel at almost everything else so well that it hardly matters, Kazuya is far too polarizing to enjoy effectively but equal parts can make you explode off of one interaction (not to mention his armour is one thing, but his outright invincibility on some moves is genuinely bad game design), and Sora - while PROBABLY the weakest of the lot - still has insane Nair loops when he gets in, has a busted recovery and has some of the best edgeguarding in the game. It really sucks that Nintendo didn’t really learn their lesson from Bayonetta in Smash 4, and I can see why it killed interest in the game for many, myself included.

[@paulakroy2635]

Sora is fine. He has weaknesses too

[@Hiro-xz8lu]

Keep up the good content my guy but can someone please tell me what the mvc music he used once he started talking about the ultimate characters. I’ve been searching for this song for forever

[@ZachHonest]

River Stage from MVC2

[@someaccount5200]

You forgot Kokonoe in Blazblue Chrono Phantasma

[@MentaAzul]

Min Min was extremely nerfed, she was a menace XD

[@PhilPhantomZSaber]

I know we're talking about Smash here but if we're talking about fighting games beside this one....Tekken 7 Akuma (technically, he's a guest star tho) and pre nerf Android 21 in DBFZ, that's all I'm gonna say 💀

[@dil7508]

Well these characters were actually planned so none of these were just picked randomly, but ofc there will be people upset, tell them to sad atp, cuz thats how it is

[@TheDemonChara]

Good video an all but that Hero segment on how people viewed the character early on and why he was banned early on is just... Wrong? Am I crazy or was most of the stuff he said in that segment just incorrect or massively stretching the truth?

[@samuelbrown1283]

Except Banjo & Kazooie.. And some people don't think the deserved their spot in Smash... I think the DO! AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN SAY ABOUT IT!

[@Mr__Jack]

They do. Considering they’re the only character to be formerly owned by Nintendo, they absolutely do deserve it. If Rare never left Nintendo, they undoubtedly would’ve gotten in Brawl. People are just salty about it because their 90s platforming mascot or JRPG protagonist didn’t make it instead.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Mr__Jack Rare said it was Nintendo that refused to buy them, so they had no choice but to join Microsoft.

[@Manudiferro-vn3gg]

The problem with this reasoning is one: Smash is not a competitive game. There is certainly a very active competitive community, but the structure of the game does not favor that type of play. So yes some of the DLC was a bit broken, but making such a big deal out of it by saying that they ruined a game doesn't make sense

[@rockyino99]

dlc isnt a problem inherently. power creep to boost sales of newcomers is

[@CAPME00]

I love DLC fighters

[@juba1479]

The problem with DLC fighters is that no one wants to pay for character that sucks. So in order to make those prices worth it, they make the characters stronger than they should be. All of SSBU dlcs are either high or top tier. To me the answer is not have dlc fighters at all. If you want that extra cash with DLC, maybe make a decent story mode, give characters cool skins, add some extra modes or whatever, but dont add fighters that are going to place the game in this state of "pay to win"

[@SweetTeaConnoisseur]

Most of Smash's DLC characters are busted. Joker, Terry, and Kazuya are the only ones that aren't super frustrating to fight. I genuinely think they either stopped caring about balance when they started making DLC or they started intentionally making the new characters stronger as an incentive to buy them. Sephiroth and Pyra being the absolute worst offenders.

[@withaktv9182]

Piranha plant is underrated, js. I ain’t saying he’s top tier. But gor I don’t think he’s as bad as people feel

[@DelayedLaunch]

Agreed, to an extent- I lost round 1 to a Plant in a local tournament last year- honestly, I underestimated the character and didn’t know how to deal with some of its options… That said, with some review after the fact, I feel pretty confident I wouldn’t lose to another Plant.

[@skimmilk2774]

Dude you keep putting out bangers. Definitely had to sub.

[@crystalkirby]

Is anyone else finding the 'humour' of the videos lately a little... Cringe? It feels like Beta64 all over again...

[@lordtheodore13]

Embrace the cringe.

[@zomaskingdom]

Very even handed take overall. Like the video a ton.

[@hellojjhjgjgfhjgfjf]

9:38 Wait isint sonic second best character? It now outdated sonic is now second on the most recent ultimate tier list

[@DennisPragerIsGodUWU]

This was probably finished before latest tier list came out. Like it's on patreon before this too.

[@hellojjhjgjgfhjgfjf]

@@DennisPragerIsGodUWU ahh I see ok

[@CipherKnighto]

I liked the first one better anyway. This second one feels only applicable to less than 1% of the players of this game

[@DennisPragerIsGodUWU]

@@CipherKnighto That makes sense. The tier list is supposed to only factor the very best but it's also nice to have something that reflects higher level to upper mid level.

[@nsbathome]

@@CipherKnighto That's just tier lists in general. All of them are tuned to high level play. If they weren't, you would see easy but bad characters higher than they should be and difficult characters in low tiers regardless of their strengths.

[@nsbathome]

While the dlc guys weren't the sole reason I lost interest in Ultimate, they certainly did not help. The best ones feel like they break the game's rules with lame win conditions or the blocks (except Pythra, they're just cracked). Couple that with Covid killing all of my local scenes and the atrocious online and you get a game I just can't justify playing anymore.

[@nicofire31]

Imagine if Ganondorf was remade as a DLC character

[@PaperGraysterYT]

then we’d get kazuya 2.0

[@Reen40020]

Pretty sad how dlc fighters always end up becoming meta just because you have to pay for them.

[@Lexicon865]

Also Akuma isn't DLC, which is the funny part

[@aviator2777]

I think the problem with wave 2 of smash ultimate wasn't even necessarily the characters being top tier/broken, the problem is that they all have moves/designs that are extremely poorly thought out or unfun to deal with. Minmin is imo one of the worst designed platform fighter characters of all time, steve is steve, sephiroth has some really broken moves and a really unintuitive and dumb wing mechanic, pythra is just generally overtuned and too good at everything, kazuya is full of insanely broken moves and his design is way too polarizing, and sora has an infinite lol

[@dil7508]

Thats why they do it cuz they don’t care about competitive, they made this clear by stopping tournaments 😂

[@PanzerHistorian]

Let’s GOOOO, As somebody that want’s almost every DLC banned (except for Banjo and Pirahnna plant) i like this. i hate them, i dispise them, they are WAY too broken

[@Chillaccino1]

skill issue

[@superkulty64]

​@@Chillaccino1 lame excuse.

[@lucysnowe9974]

It's sad how the top two characters in Ultimate are both 3rd party characters. Like, wasn't Smash supposed to be a celebration of Nintendo? :/

[@nsbathome]

No? Characters shouldn't be gimped because of arbitrary reasons like that. That would be unfair to people who like playing the third party characters.

[@lucysnowe9974]

@@nsbathome Fair.

[@joseomarmedinamontes316]

This isn't maybe about fighting games, but the same things happens on Pokemon, there are a lot of broken Pokémon now because the developers decide to add just that ability, that move that does like 5 things and no other Pokémon will have, making them from fair to broken

[@Mr.D0rAdE326]

seph

[@CorbinLeonard-rp4et]

Can we stop paying for dlc and the dlc characters need stop making buff and neaf other characters

[@AlphaZeroX96]

I miss the days when fighting games were released complete, and when balance didn't matter. People just had fun. Super Smash Bros is now a shell of its former self. It's currently catered towards the competitive/Esports community and/or scene.

[@PookeTard]

Personally think ultimate made worse mistakes than smash 4. The gap in what certain characters can do vs what the dlc can do is actually laughable. That includes just how bad the actual choices were. Minmin? Byleth? Who the fuck asked for these characters?

[@orangeslash1667]

Nintendo said that Byleth was going to be in Smash before the game came out. It the Roy situation allover again. Min Min is considered popular by Arms fans.

[@ali-kun7038]

Banjo's moveset is a crime against humanity, i wish people call out the bad game design as much as they praise the good game design

[@orangeslash1667]

Banjo needs to be very patient and attack when the opponent makes a mistake or be campy if Banjo can't find an opening. He's kinda like Sonic in a sense. In Banjo Tooie, boss fights are about running away from the bosses until they expose themselves. It also take about 6 mins to beat the Hag 1 in Banjo Tooie as well. Breegul Blaster can be used to pressure opponents. One trick I discovered is that Banjo can edge guard with nair, and if Shockspring jump isn't enough he can use Wonderwing to make it back on stage.

[@ali-kun7038]

i always imagined banjo to be a rushdown character instead of a zoner that's why i was upset when he released (rushdown not like joker or shiek obviously, meant a character who is in your face and decently balanced overall like mario)@@orangeslash1667

[@orangeslash1667]

@@ali-kun7038 Have you played Banjo Kazooie, the game not Smash Banjo???

[@CorbinLeonard-rp4et]

Can we stop paying for dlc and the dlc characters need stop making buff

[@Chillaccino1]

sephiroth low mid tier tho

[@jmann531]

Banjo, seph and byleth are the only dlcs that don't annoy me.

[@Quackra]

How are you annoyed by Joker?

[@jmann531]

@@Quackra it's mostly arsene annoys me but I will admit that joker does take a good amount of skill. So while I do find him annoying I respect joker players.

[@0f128]

Good thing smash isnt a fighting game , wonder how the meta would change if people played smash like nintendo intended, Also you just started rambling at the end

[@quehay45]

Ban Steve and Sonic. There. The rest of the FP2 characters aren't as damaging to Ultimate as those two.

[@sephirotten2413]

I say instead of sonic just ban sonix.

[@BruoBrno]

No offense but his voice makes me feel like he has a stuffy nose

[@lestatcanada]

I like DLC fighters they’re awesome

[@thomascamps6924]

first

[@Cerialos]

sephiroth is ASS most dissapointing smash character he shoulda been top 5 kinda good but turns out hes like the most mid middle tier

[@Evixyn]

Of all the DLC characters Banjo is the worst and his wonder wing is his $4.99 busted tool.

[@Idk_idc808]

I mean if we are including plant technically he’s the worst

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Idk_idc808 Banjo needs to be very patient and attack when the opponent makes a mistake or be campy if Banjo can't find an opening. He's kinda like Sonic in a sense. In Banjo Tooie, boss fights are about running away from the bosses until they expose themselves. It also take about 6 mins to beat the Hag 1 in Banjo Tooie as well. Breegul Blaster can be used to pressure opponents. One trick I discovered is that Banjo can edge guard with nair, and if Shockspring jump isn't enough he can use Wonderwing to make it back on stage.