How do I Stop Doubles in

The Hardest Question yet! #hema #fencing #sword #longsword

[@kirkb0t]

I watched the whole thing and still don't know what a doubles is

[@JonaxII]

It's when both players get hit at the same time, basically a draw. Not as good as getting a hit alone, basically a win, - but much easier to force, and mich better than losing.

[@TheRealThibault]

A double is a simultaneous hit. In HEMA they're frowned upon and usually non scoring for either fencer. Many tournaments try to discourage them by giving both fencers a loss in the match if they double three times.

[@MartinGreywolf]

If you rephrase this question, the answer becomes pretty clear. Suppose you have two fencers that are perfect clones of each other, and one of them doesn't want to double, while the other is perfectly happy to do so. Which one will have an easier time of it? Clearly the one who doesn't care about being hit! Because what you have there is two shadow clones one of whom is suicidal and therefore playing a much easier game. So the question really is "how do I beat someone who is fencing with far fewer things to worry about compared to me?" And the answer is kinda depressing. You need to be better than them. And it doesn't matter so much what exactly it is you are better at - it can be finding indes, binding, physical conditioning, technique... find all the things you are better at than they are and leverage those. But know that you are fighting an uphill battle from the beginning.

[@TheRealThibault]

Yep. This was my answer as well. They think less, so you think more, using superior tactics and strategy. Its still not a perfect solution, but it will improve your chances statistically I had a longer answer involving a lot of game theory, but the reality is always that double hits represent a Nash equilibrium so solving away from that natural equilibrium is difficult, and becomes near impossible without some cooperation

[@MartinGreywolf]

@@TheRealThibault Yeah, I think you ultimately split this question into three separate questions. "How do I learn to fence in a period way in my club?" has the answer of, more or less, yell at people to not go for doubles. "How does a tournament organizer disincentivize doubles so heavily no one will go for them, but with as few other artifacts as possible?" and I don't really know. The best answer may just be "have as many rulesets in HEMA as possible so that no one can train specifically for them". "How do I, personally, prevent doubles?" and the answer here is just be better. (Theoretically, the perfect answer is just let them win, but that's not what anyone is asking) I also suspect that the answer to "what is the optimal solution to this problem?" depends on the skill level and fencing style of both you and your opponent, so it has no real single answer. The long and short of it is, I guess, that you shouldn't despair if someone beats you on doubles, because that is almost as good as them admitting that you are better than them.

[@anthonywestbrook2155]

@@MartinGreywolf, first off, I agree that more rulesets to prevent training to the ruleset is the only way to avoid becoming Olympic fencing (in fact, I’m in favor of clubs and tournaments changing their rulesets just enough to avoid this within their own spheres). But your last paragraph gave me an idea (related to my own separate comment). If the only time intentional doubles really comes up is when someone is already in the lead, then you make some sort of rule like “doubles only score half a point, but a fencer in the lead never scores on doubles.” So when you’re in the lead, you’re actually the only one who has to worry about doubles. Instead of yelling at people not to go for doubles, we explicitly train them how to get them. But since it gives less points, you have to pull it off more times just to catch up. And you’ll still never win unless you can finish things with a clean hit. Plus, now there’s a reason to train against the reckless opponent, which will make us all more well rounded fighters.

[@MartinGreywolf]

@@anthonywestbrook2155 You could also do some form of global HP - you get 40 HP at the start of the tournament, you fight three bouts with everyone in said tournament, and if your HP ever reaches zero, you're out. I think this would heavily incentivize preserving your own HP and not being hit over scoring hits - and if not, it will at least be a nice change of pace.

[@Narguhl]

@@anthonywestbrook2155 So when my opponent is in the lead I can just risk doubles because he will not get any points?

[@peterjaimez1619]

Against someone who simply wants to hit you (or kill you if it were a duel) and doesn't care about consequences, there is no simple answer. It is possible, but it requires timing, distance and technique. In sport fencing priority works very bad for foil and saber, in epee an electronic device gives the touch to whoever touches first (with fractions of a second of difference) and if the fencers are real cautious the new rule of lack of combativity penalized them. Is in the movies that it is feasible all of the time. Cheers

[@skivernatnjilten493]

How about explaining/showing what this is about? What are doubles?

[@runakovacs4759]

If you're in the community you know already. This is an answer for in-community, so no need to waste time on it. However - a double is what it sounds like: you strike your opponent, and they strike you as well either at the same time or as a follow-up. This is the main differentiator of HEMA and modern fencing: Modern fencing cares who hits first, HEMA cares for who would theoretically survive. A double in most tournaments means neither side gets points or possibly even both sides get a penalty. Avoiding doubles is not just what the last 20 years of HEMA has been trying to solve. It's what all fencing development from the day we started to duel with swords has been trying to solve. "How do I wound/kill my opponent while staying safe?" It's a very challenging question with no easy answer. Probably the best answer is "wield a long enough blade with enough stopping power that they cannot threaten you while you can." This works for self-defence scenarios but not for fair duels.

[@skivernatnjilten493]

@@runakovacs4759 It's not like the recommendation algorithm cares for who the video is intended for, nor did the video take any care to clarify. Regardless, thanks for the explanation, I thought a double was - as it sounds - hitting twice in succession.

[@runakovacs4759]

@@skivernatnjilten493 You misunderstand. Person A strikes person B. Person B either strikes A at the same time, or strikes them after the hit lands. In real life, this would mean both are wounded and it is bad. HEMA seeks to imitate how duelling was done with sharp swords. Therefore, you want to learn to hit your opponent without them being able to wound you - even if you managed to wound them first.

[@TheRealThibault]

You make a fair criticism, I assumed knowledge of what a "double" was without explaining. Others are correct it is a double touch or double hit, where both fencers strike the other nearly simultaneously.

[@austindavis4708]

He really just said get gud

[@TheRealThibault]

Honestly yes, but "gud" is still a mystery to me.

[@Narguhl]

Indes action don't work very well in my experience because the doubler just adjusts his attack to another opening which is not covered (ignoring that he will get a blade in his face). Imho the answer is parry repost and nachreißen. Actions in the "nach" when the doubler is recovering from his blow. For some reactive doublers you need to provoke the attack by feints. Timing, distance, technique feints. Let his attack miss. Attack into his nach while his blade is not a danger to you anymore. There are other, similar methods but I think someone who is able to constantly outsmart someone who has no self preservation is one of the last steps from advanced to Mastery.

[@TheRealThibault]

I find that a counterattack that gives the initial attacker time to recognize, and adjust, is not actually "Indes" or "contratempo". It is too late... Nacht or Dui Tempi. In a truly well timed counterattack, they do not have time to react, but like I said, you must also be sure of their commitment. The keys for success exist, using them properly takes practice and impeccable timing.

[@TheRealThibault]

The parry-riposte solution has problems as well. If the attacker chooses to remise, it will end in a double in the second tempo. So it works very well against those who do not remise, but choosing tactic based on opponent is a difficult thing. But I think we agree with what I said in the video, out smarting with tactics and having impeccable timing is the only way, and it is a hard road.

[@Narguhl]

@@TheRealThibault And I think we can a agree that a shitty Parry-Riposte where the opponent is able to remise is not an option just like a shitty counterattack is not. Imho mostly the doublers are also people who lack blade control in the sense that they can not adjust a strike which was already thrown. That's why I have good experiences with Nachreisen and Parry-Riposte here. (Even though I am the fast direct attack guy or the feint attack guy.) But I think we can basically say that we agree. As mentioned in other comments: When the opponent is playing a much easier game you have to be much better at ours for get better results in the hard-version.

[@thaddeusgigachaddeus2954]

I got a question, if you're looking at youtube comments: How do I do HEMA without a club near me? Mainly what gear to buy, since I have two friends that ate kind of interested in it, or if I should even try to practice alone at all. Thanks

[@TheRealThibault]

I'm horribly behind in updating videos, and this is a big one, so I'll just answer via reply. Honestly, I think a couple of foam swords and fencing masks is all you need to practice. You can get free translations of sources from wiktenauer.com and as long as you're learning historical techniques, a foam sword can do a lot for very little money. Past that, our club uses the following sheet for gear you need to practice or compete, with our recommendations. I built it to be pretty user friendly, but if you have any questions, please ask! docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EWqU-Sz2vBcDBS0lPGhkePENcDLT8xdv7vbVLiTEMFk/edit?usp=sharing

[@thaddeusgigachaddeus2954]

​@@TheRealThibaultthank you so much

[@arock9174]

The most consistent way for me is focusing on baiting out the double with a feint and nachreisen to the arms. Helps that i tend to have better footwork / timing than the doublers 😂

[@barnacleandy]

The answer is to only do rapier and ignore cuts

[@cavernous_daemon3750]

Priority ruleset, simple as.

[@TheRealThibault]

This is starting to gain some traction in HEMA but it's an uphill battle (honestly, I agree with you)

[@cavernous_daemon3750]

@@TheRealThibault sUiCiDe cOuNtErAttAcK iS mArTiaL

[@frankheninja1]

Fuck no

[@cavernous_daemon3750]

@@frankheninja1Explain how priority works.

[@frankheninja1]

@@cavernous_daemon3750 if you initiate an attack you have priority until you have either been parried, your blade as been beaten, you miss, or you stop moving forward. When you have priority your opponent may not land any scoring action against you. ROW rules place the impetus to protect yourself on the defender. In other words, it places it on your opponent. Afterblow rules are better because it places the impetus for defense on the person initiating the action, I.e. the attacker, I.e. you. And I’d much rather train and teach my students to protect themselves at all times, regardless of what their opponent does. If your opponent is suicidal, you need to take extra care to set up your attack. Provocations, seeking binds, time cuts and voids.