You'll Never Be Able to Unsee this Nihilist Trick | Jonathan Pageau (

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[@MrWeebable]

"Marriage is just a piece of paper" And then they go on to devote their lives to all other pieces of paper: diploma, contract, money etc.

[@Dre2Dee2]

To be fair, that IS how most people treat marriage. They say ALL THE VOWS, to God, their family, everybody and guess what? A year later they divorce without even blushing. Despicable, aint it?

[@vlnow]

Contracts literally hold civilisation together

[@CFChristian]

Huh. Good point.

[@MegaMerdeux]

@@Dre2Dee2 modern people dont take things too seriously anymore. Unless it's a material tangible object

[@brain0nfire]

Well, in fairness money is less valuable than ever, colleged degrees mean squat day by day and contracts are defaulted because people would rather take the punitive damage. Those are all papers that work because of magical thinking. They are necessary and fundamental but because they reflecpt/project social intentions. As values change so does the grip these papers have.

[@zachdavenport8509]

"'In our world,' said Eustace, 'a star is a huge ball of flaming gas.' 'Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of.'” ― C.S. Lewis, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

[@cymbolic_space1832]

looking through here to try and antedote to the reductive impulse. and this here quote i believe is closest i have come across so far.

[@zachdavenport8509]

@@cymbolic_space1832 Glad I can help! Lewis fights reductionism brilliantly all across his writings, would recommend reading any and all of his stuff.

[@SeraphsWitness]

Dang that's good.

[@TimoteoTheOsprey]

In another work Lewis gives a name to this move: "Nothing Buttery."

[@SeraphsWitness]

@@TimoteoTheOsprey I don't understand, can you explain?

[@SavedSkeptic]

Neil Degrease Tyson is just a clump of cells that like to hear themselves talk.

[@cymbolic_space1832]

is he trans now? (not sarcasm)

[@dickmcwienersonIII]

@@cymbolic_space1832 Why do you ask this? Is there some news about this? If you look at his earlobes in different pictures they don't seem to match up.

[@cymbolic_space1832]

@@dickmcwienersonIII well Saved Skeptic here referred to him as "themselves" and it just sounded like maybe that was the news! i could be very wrong. but now that you mention it. something has changed with his earlobes. maybe early signs of cybernetic mutations and i feel confident assuming he is a transhumanist.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

@@cymbolic_space1832 "themselves" refers to "cells."

[@cymbolic_space1832]

@@xaviervelascosuarez it all makes so much more sense now! thanks for clearing that up.

[@joncollins7129]

Abortionist: it's not a baby; it's just a clump of cells. Me: YOU are just a clump of cells.

[@Dre2Dee2]

"Its just a clump of cells" "and youre just a WHORE" 🤣

[@mrosskne]

Yeah, and I'm a clump of cells that can and will kill you if you try to abort me. Might makes right. Babies have no might, so they have no rights.

[@ryanparker4996]

"Its just a fetus" Fetus is a latin word meaning offspring, and that means technically we are all fetuses because we all sprung off from something else.

[@joncollins7129]

@ryanparker4996 you are right. The fetus is the offspring, and we are offspring. To claim that a fetus is anything other than a human is to lie to yourself first and everyone else second so that you can justify murdering it.

[@theAmazingJunkman]

I remember an argument between Ben Shapiro and some college liberal going exactly like this, lmao

[@nathanbauman1579]

A very intelligent friend played this game with me declaring 'Beethoven is just major and minor chords'. This video humorously shed light on that reductionist stunt.

[@skinnysnorlax1876]

Pfft. Beethoven clearly also used diminished and augmented chords!

[@andrewmize823]

Chords are just basic building blocks. It's what a talented composer can build with them that counts. Of course, there's a lot more to music than just chords, but a person who reduces Beethoven to majors and minors probably wouldn't grok that.

[@philbutcher6959]

@@andrewmize823 In the spirit of Johnathan's video, be careful with your use of the word 'just'. I loved this video because the word 'just' is my bete noire and I take everyone up on it. A chord, as I am sure you'd agree, is so much more than a building block and is itself made of meaningful parts. This is the essence of the subject: the particular and universal, the many and the one, that come together in that essential thing, meaning. Perhaps the problem, at heart, is the fear of meaning and the implications that arise from it. God bless you.

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

Your friend doesn't even recognize a dominant seventh when he hears one. Sad!

[@Roescoe]

Oddly enough the magic of Beethoven is that he uses such simple stuff and produces an incredible sound.

[@displaychicken]

This brings to mind an exchange between Degrasse-Tyson and comedian Norm Macdonald. Neil: “The universe is blind to our sorrows and indifferent to our pains. Have a nice day!” Norm: “Neil, there is a logic flaw in your little aphorism that seems quite telling. Since you and I are part of the Universe, then we would also be indifferent and uncaring. Perhaps you forgot, Neil, that we are not superior to the Universe, but merely a fraction of it. Nice day, indeed.”

[@CrizzyEyes]

Might be more appropriate to call Norm by his former title here, which was logic professor, since that's the expertise he used to make that rebuttal.

[@TheRKae]

I told a guy once that I liked the music of Yes and ELP, and he sneered and said, "So you're into English guys who play keyboards really fast." I replied, "I'm sorry, but is there ANY form of music that can't be reduced to a snotty dismissive retort?" He couldn't answer.

[@robertbeisert3315]

Rap: "Fast-talking cursing guys obsessed with body parts" Pop: "Generic progressions and overused themes designed to sell fast and fade faster" Rock: "Angst about an establishment that long ago became too comfortable to meaningfully rebel against" Metal: "People who could do classical if they weren't determined to be different" Classical: "People who could do metal if they weren't so boring"

[@Lyonessi]

Sounds like an AI that is yet to learn EQ

[@dallassegno]

there is no emotional quotient. may as well be an astrologer.

[@Thisisreallystupid]

If you’re into Yes & ELP, you need to branch out into King Crimson & Tangerine Dream. “They’re, like, all connected man!”

[@TheRKae]

@@Thisisreallystupid Already there. In fact, if you like Tangerine Dream, check out Eloy - another German group. Try their album "Silent Cries and Mighty Echoes." Genius stuff!

[@josealzaibar5274]

It's telling that for them everything is meaningless except the words they say. Their words are never just air coming out of a mammals hole, they carry weight, meaning and authority.

[@What-he5pr]

They're little tyrants and they follow the spirit of Satan.

[@off-meta-michael]

Yes

[@dash4800]

i wish that someone would say that to tyson when he's going on about why everything is meaningless because "infinity". Just be like "well everything you just said is just the result of random cells arbitrarily formed together in a pattern thats contracting and forcing are out of your face hole, creating vibrations that tingle random cells in your ear, it doesn't actually mean anything."

[@Lyonessi]

@@dash4800 that somehow contradicts yet proves his point o_0

[@Lyonessi]

@@dash4800 but ultimately disproves it because to understand words (=meaning) is to be meaningful.

[@coffeecupenglish]

“Football is just a bunch of guys running around chasing a ball”

[@SydneyBristow0788]

I tell my husband this all the time. Poor guy, he just wants to sit in peace watching a bunch of dudes running up and down a field chasing a ball. 😁😅🤣

[@vladislavstezhko1864]

@@SydneyBristow0788 that twist was sad

[@youryborisenkov9888]

Wow.. I think this is the first time I actually understand this🙃. Thank you 😊

[@moseshamlett3887]

Ha

[@MiB365]

Sometimes it’s harder to argue against this with people than argue for religion haha

[@DragonGP]

"But you cannot go on ‘explaining away’ forever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You cannot go on ‘seeing through’ things forever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to ‘see through’ first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To ‘see through’ all things is the same as not to see." (C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man, chapter 3).

[@Ruwach4]

Cool quote!

[@JakeHawken]

Man I love CSL

[@matswessling6600]

depends on wether you want to be stuck in your own bubble or break trough it. Its about how to identify where it cones from. Its you, not the reality around you. its tour own brain that makes you feel that way.

[@antonia6059]

There’s a great Key and Peele comedy sketch about Neil Degrasse Tyson. Basically he gets out of doing every day tasks in his household by reducing everything to its elements. It’s really funny.

[@adamorly2971]

Yeah, that one is hilarious!

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

Art immitating life.

[@dragonfriend6874]

Haha! I had no idea reductionism was such a character defining trait of Tyson.

[@joashtunison351]

I've seen it. Key and Peele may be libs, but sometimes they surprise me.

[@aarontheperson6867]

@@joashtunison351 all sides have good people

[@adam.pedzikiewicz1999]

I've come across this a lot, and I always reply "reductionism is not an argument".

[@redacted428]

It is an argument, just a fallacious one.

[@InnovativeSaint]

Thank you

[@hamnchee]

An argument for what?

[@CarapaceClavicle]

@@hamncheerelativism, for starters.

[@hamnchee]

@CarapaceClavicle Reductionism isn't an argument for relativism?

[@samvimes9510]

My favorite Neil deGrasse Tyson tweet is, and I quote, _"If Batman wants so badly to be a bat, he might be more intriguing if (like Marvel's Daredevil) he were also blind, like a bat."_ Bats are...not blind. The entire internet clowned on him for that one, even Discover magazine wrote an article about the tweet. He also made a tweet shorty after Star Wars Episode VII came out saying that BB-8 realistically wouldn't be able to roll around on the sand because of its spherical shape. Neil is a pompous ass whose only joy in life seems to be ruining other peoples' fun.

[@billlyons7024]

No his joy is astronomy, and his joy is apparent in how he speaks and conducts himself. His debunking of movies are for fun and education. You're just too sensitive. It's ok if other people don't like the things you like.

[@d.ryanwebb1166]

Neil deGrasse Tyson is a very intelligent idiot.

[@rustysmackleford2333]

@@billlyons7024 no, he's a dull and pretentious snotweasel.

[@devilsadvocate6098]

@@billlyons7024 > a man can only have one joy at any given time

[@mayanboricua]

@@devilsadvocate6098 Well, a man certainly can't have more than one "ONLY joy"

[@jzechiel]

Twenty years ago, I remember a science teacher of mine off-handedly remarking that whenever she becomes sad, she reminds herself that her emotion is just chemicals in her brain. It struck me then, as a little 8th grader, as profoundly wrong, but I don't think I quite understood why until I was reminded of it just now watching this video.

[@hamnkapten7977]

better late than never! 😂

[@corbinsmith50]

She wasn't wrong. That's why drugs are used to treat anxiety, depression or schizophrenia. It's why people become addicted to heroin or alcohol. Your thoughts aren't independent of your chemistry.

[@subg8858]

Except with increased use of psychiatric drugs we have seen increased prevalence of anxiety, depression and psychosis. Just because something is widely done per existing orthodoxy doesn’t make it correct

[@subg8858]

If I take a pain killer to treat an injury, which works by interfering with signals in the nervous system, thst doesn’t mean the nerve system is the source of the problem. The nervous system is only informing you of the problem, which is the injury itself of course.

[@tonn333]

@@corbinsmith50 she was wrong on the just part

[@RodrigoMera]

Before finally returning to the Church I used to read the Tao Te King daily and Alan Watt's books on Taoism. It teached me humility and faith, it was actually very productive for me and made me grow, but I found out I hadn't an effective way of dealing with my vices and my impulsive behaviors. I still struggled to forgive myself for my mistakes or to prevent myself in a healthy way from doing something that was wrong or unproductive. Remembering there's a God to whom you can pray and who will help you, and experiencing the way He does, changed everything for me. I used to try to palliate the lack of prayer in my spiritual life through affirmations and visualizations, but it doesn't really work. Returning to Church also gave me a sense of belonging which I was yearning for since my teenage years.

[@yeshua-on-wings]

I'm just another stranger on the internet, but I hope this comes across the right way. I'm glad you've come back to church, and see the value in it. That's a step forward perhaps from relying on other religious teachings to guide you. But if you're only looking to church, and not to Christ, then all the spiritual and religious tools in the world won't help you. For example, the act of prayer can have some effect on you, just like the act of speaking to another person. But if you don't hear the other person speak back to you, then there's no real relationship; you've effectively wasted your words. The same goes for all religious and spiritual acts. If they don't bring you closer to Jesus, it's all a waste. I hope you don't settle for religious acts, and instead push through to actually seek closeness with God. That will help you grow far more than simply returning to church.

[@RunninUpThatHillh]

@@yeshua-on-wings I read the post and didn't get an impression they weren't experiencing that. ??

[@mdmh9999]

You'll love tao te queen

[@nathandurant2825]

@@yeshua-on-wings and how do you know they have or haven't 'brought you closer to Jesus' Seems vague and subjective

[@jesseshooter4403]

I highly suggest you read Christ the Eternal Tao

[@gianni206]

“Science is just people staring at moving objects”

[@lhughes6656]

NDT is one of the biggest charlatans of our time. He sounds smart to those who want to believe him but he simply states unprovable things as fact and I swear he makes up things on the spot because he know people will believe him. He's great at fooling the masses and I believe he enjoys doing it.

[@ramigilneas9274]

So he is like a philosopher or like an apologist… or like Jordan Peterson.😂

[@sliglusamelius8578]

NDT seems very stupid to me.

[@saintdominicreview]

In fairness, he also loves to harass, grope, cajole, threaten and/or seduce young white women who work for him...

[@ramigilneas9274]

@@saintdominicreview …with zero supporting evidence whatsoever… just like the legends of the Bible.😂

[@jimfrommars2591]

Colbert asked NDT if the New Year was based on anything astronomical. Tyson said "No." he was wrong it is based on the midnight zenith of Sirius. He's not even informed in his field!

[@zachtrix8428]

Been thinking about this a lot. The word “just” is the bloody knife in the hand of the golem that we in the West have created.

[@chief_tobias_]

Is it just a knife?

[@thelastbrobo7826]

@@chief_tobias_ 🤣

[@journeytoform]

And all because we didn't let the golem rest on Sunday.

[@RockandrollNegro]

Legend has it that if you erase the letter 'A' in the word "atheist" written on Neil DeGrasse Golem's forehead, he suddenly believes in a divine being.

[@MrWesford]

@@journeytoform The Golem is 1000 years in the making

[@donquixote8462]

Yes. I've noticed this long ago. Part of the spiritual battle is finding meaning and hope in things. Therefore, the agents of the enemy want you to surrender via "everything is meaningless".

[@words007]

Or maybe mayyyyyyyybe.......... Agents of the so called enemy have already seen the 3 hour long movie from life origin and death spiritually and no matter what movie doesn't have 2nd part and spiritually knowing you are at 40% of that movie and now at 60-80-90-95-99 is something these people are fearful about? And just warning others? Ever care to think of that? Ever? Just because these people that you call ENEMY don't hide from the truth no matter how painful for themselves (forget others) they go out of their way to tell something which was never uncovered before or only a handful have know in entire human existence? I see myself in others more so then ever before I'm not religious but i have answers to the true "spiritual categorical" questions about the beginning and the end. And there is neither white clothed Jesus or Black clothed Lucifer at the end. Not just Jesus 100% of every religion that exists That i can tell u.

[@yournewdadq9782]

@@words007 maybe i would go a 100% with Jesus on this one and for sure not with whatever you are trying to say.

[@sllonga7557]

"What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets". Dracula, Castlevania.

[@briangriffin8106]

Well, to be fair, Dracula was a horrible individual. And they tend to hope that everyone else is as miserable as they are. Even though they know that's not true.

[@HeyMykee]

Ask him if he knows what a woman is.

[@realitywins6457]

“Handshakes are just touching hands. It’s meaningless.” “Your argument is just words. It’s meaningless.”

[@rachimbaskin6559]

Kids knocking over the blocks of others. Building nothing themselves, but gleefully urinating on the holy and beautiful. It's the glee that rankles me.

[@woo-zh8fl]

"Hypocrite that you are, for you trust the chemicals in your brain to tell you they are chemicals. All knowledge is ultimately based on that which we cannot prove. Will you fight? Or will you perish like a dog?"

[@improvisedchaos8904]

Our names will be remembered; if we die like trampled flowers.

[@Dre2Dee2]

Mickey really shut Donald the fuck down

[@christophermarcone5504]

I had a friend who once said to me in earnest , "all of life is just a video game and everyone playing it are so concerned with things because they haven't yet woken up to the illusion" ..I felt an indescribable loneliness , emptiness in the words and from them. It is the absolute opposite of my experience in this life. Absolutely astounding.

[@radscorpion8]

you can find meaning in a movie, and still realize it's just a movie. There isn't really any contradiction. Whether it is actually just a movie or your friend's imagination is another question

[@christophermarcone5504]

@@radscorpion8 life's but a walking shadow , a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more . It is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing.. Macbeth

[@bud389]

I used to be a nihilist. And then I grew up.

[@LJ-hk4tv]

I used to be optimistic, then I went to work.

[@user-vw6xp5nl6t]

This reminded me of that line in Dead Poets Society - ‘You mean it’s just a bunch of guys reading poetry?’ ‘No Mr Oversteet we weren’t a Greek Organisation we were Romantics. We didn’t just read poetry we let it drip from our tongues like honey’

[@RunninUpThatHillh]

love that movie! :D

[@drboone357]

Ironically, that movie is an exploration into the very dangers of nihilism and abandoning tradition altogether. When he turns his back on the traditions of his family, he gets lost in the nihilistic worldview of obsessive artists who cannot exist outside their artistic mediums. They lose meaning in their lives, become depressed, and project themselves onto the characters and losing their own sense of reality. Death becomes a romantic offering to the art. Incredible movie with many hidden meanings.

[@wyleong4326]

Reading this with Robin Williams in my head...

[@christophermarcone5504]

@@drboone357 also full of Masonic references. The two worlds cross each other throughout. It romanticizes something very dark in my view . None of the boys survive . They all "sign their name".

[@drboone357]

@@christophermarcone5504 I agree. The whole ritualistic suicide at the end is very disturbing. All occult references.

[@djt20]

Jonathan, I've never noticed that before. Now I cringe at the number of times I've done it.

[@ceddebruxelles]

me too... I should apologize to my mother 😅

[@djt20]

@@ceddebruxelles Haha

[@TinaHyde]

@@ceddebruxelles You probably owe her an apology anyway. 😄

[@ceddebruxelles]

@@TinaHyde true 😓

[@DaDoubleDee]

After watching this I realized I do it constantly with my own thoughts, emotions and responses

[@renep.1435]

Wittgenstein had a terrific version of this. I don't know where I read it, but it went something like this: "Imagine that I would cook Mr. Redpath here [a student whom he disliked] at 200 degrees, and all that would remain were some ashes etc. I could then say: this is all that Mr. Redpath actually is." Very funny, very much to the point.

[@mrosskne]

That's false, because some of the student will have been converted to water vapor that would no longer be present.

[@billbadson7598]

This idea is incredibly important. I’ve been aware of the same thing for a long time, but wasn’t able to put it into words like this. Abortion proponents sometimes do the same thing with “just a clump of cells,” as if the livings cells did not matter or had no value. If emotions are just chemical reactions in the brain, I don’t think that minimizes emotions, I think it exalts chemical interactions. I think it exalts every level of Creation down to the smallest possible thing.

[@BalrogUdun]

Society has lost the ability to think outside the physical world

[@DeflatingAtheism]

Statements of the form “Love is just a chemical reaction in the brain” are very popular with pop-philosophy/scientism. From a properly scientific perspective, the very most you can say is the experience of love CORRELATES with certain chemical reactions in the brain, and even then, you’d need a scientific-materialist worldview already in place to have justification for saying that the material correlate “wins out” as the more significant, determinative side.

[@bumpygumpson]

@@DeflatingAtheism I don't know how they don't see it as self-refuting. The act of deconstructing what us ordinary folk find meaningful could be reduced to mere babbling to get laid like any other pursuit. They try to use rational arguments to argue for a position which precludes rationality.

[@lightworker2956]

Yep. Adult humans are also "just a clump of cells."

[@drowned309]

That's a profound thought, I like it.

[@llamzrt]

I like this. Keeping the multiplicity/union dynamic in mind, we can respond to the "humans are a bag of chemicals" point with "yes -- and they are also humans".

[@words007]

No. Humans are not bag of chemicals, that's kindergarten level stuff to know, whats actually at the very base of human experience is, which we call CONSCIOUSNESS is actually just FRICTION. FRICTION between our organs that's it, if you actually know and can even do thought experiment if you have creative developed brain, you would come to same conclusion and yes HUMANS are nothing special the only thing that is making all the progress for us is MINDLESS reproducing from less then 1 BILLion in 1922 to hundreds years now 2022 we are at 8 BILL and look at our race and our achievements. You cannot contradict me to what I just wrote the human experience is just friction with not just our body but with nature. And no matter what, however perfect, there can never be 2 same human experience and that's why individual truth is rubbish and Religion is crap although in very real sense Religion exists when people cannot deal with idea of death alone so they form a group and do different different things to just pile on the shared belief which still exist to this day, Death. The universe in all its vastness is more Blacker then White, Death is and will forever be the 1 true GOD where even planets and galaxies will end. Nihilism is where OPTIMIST AND PESSIMIST individual eventually reach which are also called REALIST.

[@BootySweat4491]

@@words007I had a stroke reading this.

[@words007]

@@BootySweat4491 i had multiple, when i was on a journey to write millions worth of words as small as i could ABOVE.

[@gomertube]

When the nihilist says, "Your thoughts are *just* the firing of synapses, organized to string some words together into a sentence," reply, "If that is so, can I disregard your opinion on the meaning and significance of my thoughts?"

[@dann10000]

I also listened a lot of Alan Watts. I still can't believe that I remember him saying "it's maya - an illusion" and "no wiggle for the child is 'just a wiggle'" Christ told us you can see the tree by it's fruits

[@Edbrad]

What is your point? A lot of people misunderstand Watts for some reason. I can’t tell if you agree or disagree with him

[@ScuffedLife]

"...I had a discussion with a great master in Japan. We were talking about the various people who are working to translate the Zen books into English He said, 'That's a waste of time, If you really understand Zen, ' he said 'You could use any book, you could use the Bible, you could use Alice in Wonderland, you could use the dictionary' Because he said, 'The sound of the rain needs no translation'...", Alan Watts. Watts said in almost every one of his speeches that Zen and Zen masters had nothing to teach. He lowered expectations to a minimum, yet people always seem disappointed they did not get the enlightenment they sought. Now that is cosmic humor.

[@trapsenpai]

@@ScuffedLife zen teachings are thoroughly useless to a person burdened with trauma and emotional reactivity from a toxic society. that encompasses a huge percentage of people in our society. clearing intense traumas from the nervous system FIRST is what allows zen teachings to become resonant. peace can not be sustained in a troubled and broken heart & mind.

[@ScuffedLife]

@@trapsenpai The teachings give an idea on how to start dealing with it at least- when you are hungry, eat, when tired, sleep, when thirsty, drink. Focus on what's now in front of you, not what was behind or what will be ahead. Most people's minds are the source of their own problems (I am excluding abuse victims or worse trauma in my generalization). Jordan Peterson would say - clean your room, which is basically the same as the Zen teachings. Don't do 100 things at once, start with 1 and it will be enough. Zen is used in many forms, without people even realizing it - because if they did, it wouldn't be Zen.

[@Skyfighter64]

When you were mentioning "a bag of chemicals" in regards to what humans are, I was instantly reminded of Full Metal Alchemist (FMA: Brotherhood, specifically), when Edward reads to the poor girl that just wants her brother back, the exact makeup of the human body (in universe, at least), and yet the story, in grand old tradition, is about how humans are far MORE than simply the sum of their parts or some sort of random combination of chemical reactions. Not complaining or making any real commentary on your guys' commentary, just something funny you reminded me of.

[@bobbyologun1517]

Well spotted!

[@mrRambleGamble]

"Just a clump of cells"

[@ChristianTheChicken]

I always kind of liked the retort: "Yes, well so are you."

[@SeraphsWitness]

@@ChristianTheChicken Right, just a slightly bigger clump of slightly more cells. What's the moral distinction? Good question to ask

[@markovannash7129]

I can never un-see this. Thank you Jonathan for showing me the pattern to this hilarious trick.

[@SimpleAmadeus]

This was very helpful to understand the thing that's happening. I've seen it thousands of times, and when I was an atheist I definitely did this myself. In finding the truth of Jesus I've been tediously rejecting these arguments on a case by case basis, but I hadn't spotted this pattern before.

[@Incredible_Mister_J]

To be in Christ is to realize the beauty of creation and how much we need God.

[@Ransetsu]

Amen

[@alandiaz5184]

Tyson is such a bad heir to the Sagan legacy. At least he understood that meaning was important

[@TinaHyde]

💯

[@kateshiningdeer3334]

Sagan always made the universe MORE real and MORE impressive. You could see that he truly understood how awesome it is, and I mean awesome in the sense "something that inspires awe", and not the modern meaning. He somehow made the enormousness of the universe even grander, without making us seem small (in the negative sense of small) by comparison. I was thinking the same thing after listening to this! I'm glad someone else mentioned it!

[@CrimsonSlytherin]

Yooo it makes sense. When I’m in ptsd/flashbacks, intimacy is grotesque and, like you describe, reduced to the physical aspects. I can’t feel or understand what others feel. Thank you for talking about this it’s so simple yet so insightful!!!!!

[@igorsuslov]

I remember seeing Neil Degrease Tyson once talking about his mortality which did not seem to strike him that much - but then he talked about the potential end of all time and space all together (big rip etc.) which noticeably really hit him deep in the heart. I hope he discovered something within him at that point.

[@olerocker3470]

In other words: "I'm meaningless but if somehow all this goes away, how sad! What a loss!" This goes back to Neil's reductionism and Norm"s revelation of Neil's flawed reductionism. Thanks to @displaychicken .

[@nathanaelm7153]

Great video. I remember Sam Harris said - "Football is just a bag of air that people get excited about" or something like that 😂😂 Pride is lethal.

[@SeraphsWitness]

You know what I'd say? Sam Harris is just a bag of air people get excited about.

[@dillpixel8357]

@@SeraphsWitness BURN!!!!!! 🤣

[@bogdanpopescu1401]

@@gnomechomski2406 actually people do not go to the stadium to watch a bag of air, but rather two competing teams; the bag of air is only a key tool

[@bogdanpopescu1401]

@@gnomechomski2406 maybe, I really don't know. Sam Harris says outrageously dumb stuff sometimes

[@jerryard1]

I wonder if Sam would agree that Israel is just a lump of dirt.

[@AaronDAntoni]

What a story. Not to give some simple platitude. That God would use even the most tragic and heartbreaking moments in life to draw our attention back to him, is truly life itself. By his mercy he along with the Holy Spirit and by the encouragement of the church, he continues after our hearts not just our minds. Thank you for this. It brought tears to my eye.

[@eugengolubic2186]

If God exists, why would he, after that, push us away from him?

[@AaronDAntoni]

@@eugengolubic2186 I’m not sure he pushes us away. I do not think this video proves that God simply exist more like God (the giver of life and the pattern maker) is necessary.

[@eugengolubic2186]

When I followed the evidence that supported a simpler hypothesis than theism and started to question Christianity, he could give me a clear sign to deal with my doubts or a better theistic explanation, but I don't think he did. He left me in doubts and fear of going to hell. If a human did a lot of what the Christian God does that wouldn't sound veery loving and looked like he pushed some of us away from himself. I'm still reasoning through annd following the evidence if I find them, but although I'm not an atheist or agnostic, I'm not a religious and committed Christian as before.

[@AaronDAntoni]

@@eugengolubic2186 I think Christianity isn’t just a “thinking” religion it is a religion of action. The most basic of actions that I believe God calls us to do is only 3 things. To love justice, and to do Mercy to walk humbly before God (micah 6:8). Don’t overthink it. Sometimes God gives clear signs, and people still do not believe. I don’t think that Christianity is about looking for clear, unarguable events. I would say, pray to God one more time and serve whoever is closest to you with all of your heart. Try to be OK with not understanding what you don’t understand. But the Christian walk always starts in the heart of love. Whoever you love the most, serve them. not just once or twice but make a commitment to charity for them. You may be able to see the goodness of God’s grace. I will be praying for you. You sound very open and honest. Not too far from where any of us truly are.

[@AaronDAntoni]

@@eugengolubic2186 I honor you for being so honest. Dear friend let me know if there’s anything I can help with. Truly. Not because I want you to believe what I believe or think what I think. But I do understand doubt. I know it’s tricks. Thank you so much, again, for your openness, and willing Ness to share exactly where you are in your life. I pray the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ, be on you through this time. That he will open your eyes to himself. Not just the theory or a hypothesis or philosophy. I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ opened your eyes to the person of who he is. It truly is OK to reason your way through this, I do think that service is the best way to get to know the man from Nazareth though

[@lewiakk5844]

“ItS RidIcUlouS!” “Why does it matter that it’s ridiculous, so be it”

[@phonepunk7888]

The meaninglessness of things is the most meaningful thing about being an atheist.

[@arcguardian]

@@phonepunk7888 hard to tell, the ones I encounter think their egos are the most meaningful thing.

[@lewiakk5844]

@@phonepunk7888 what do you mean by meaningless? Personal meaning, greater meaning etc…?

[@jameswhitley4101]

I guess a good response to whenever someone uses that trick is, "Well those are just words strung along in a sentence." Or more memetically, "Well, that's just, like, your opinion man."

[@someguy5334]

"If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain" -Morpheus

[@superroydude]

The funny thing about this nihilistic trick is that it is actually profoundly prideful. By identifying with the cosmic scale and reducing the human experience, you're secretly suggesting your likeness to a god. The only way for someone to say: "we are just one planet among billions" is if they assume an alien, godlike perspective. So again pride is the cardinal sin, and nihilism is the price you pay.

[@georgechristiansen6785]

This reminds me of a trend I kept coming across among teenagers about a decade ago when I was working with youth. They'd often say "You can't compare suffering.". To which I would reply "Would you like a slap in the face or a kick in the crotch?"

[@stevedoetsch]

Please, you're just another pseudo intellectual without comprehension. The phrase means "You can't compare the suffering in one person's life to another because there's no objective measure that can tell us which person is suffering more". You're juvenile retort compares one type of suffering to another within the same individual and hence fails to address the meaning of the phrase.

[@georgechristiansen6785]

@@stevedoetsch Nice try. The fact that, almost without exception, people would all choose the slap in the face exposes everything you wrote as nothing more than drivel from a "pseudo intellectual without comprehension" . But don't let reality get in the way of your pontificating.

[@drooskie9525]

Well, I understand what they were sort of getting at. It's a attempt at dealing with people who keep throwing around the fallacy of relative privation. There is a tendency where some people (usually from older people, especially in some authoritative position) to utterly dismiss your complaints and grievances simply because its "not as bad as" something else. So, I sympathize, even though its not really a well thought out phrase.

[@georgechristiansen6785]

@@drooskie9525 There is certainly cases of that, but there is way more making mountains out of molehill too. Quite often though the cure to these little sufferings is to realize it's not all that bad and to realize you being a pussy is the actual problem.

[@jenniferrosener4668]

Jonathan, I have been following you for some time now, I am so grateful for you and the gifts of vision bestowed upon you, your courage for speaking the things you speak. You have changed my life deeply. Thank you.

[@mdansson]

Jonathan, really well pointed out! I must add that Neil D Tyson has one more complementary trick, like they ironically play off each other. Like his left-right punch combo. While stripping meaning and significance from things in one moment, he tends to over-dramatize with a theatrical voice of significance and grandeur in other moments, seemingly trying to infuse meaning and significance into things that otherwise would do very well on their own, if one were left any room to contemplate. @SavedSkeptic put it well in his comment... NDT seems to really enjoy hearing himself talk. I've for a long time felt he's significantly over-rated. I'm glad to see more people are on to his parlor tricks.

[@venalleader2909]

I learned this when I was 12 from reading Conan the Barbarian.. "I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content."

[@johntaylor9381]

Stoicism, at its worse, does this too. I think stoicism can be helpful to a degree but unfortunately it’s biggest flaw is reducing everything to its elements. The idea that we have no control over the outcome of anything. At first that’s nice because you can brush off disappointments easier but eventually you just give up trying because nothing is for certain so why even bother. That can be helpful sometimes but if you do it too much everything loses value.

[@Crime_Mime]

That can defintiely be a danger. You may not be able to guarantee the outcome of external events, but you have immense control over your own reaction to the world, your relationship to it, and what you choose to do with any given situation.

[@RavagersPrey]

It is valiant to try and fail, then the timidity of never trying at all. It's what I always tell myself in the face of uncertainty.

[@andrewshaw1571]

I think thats stoicism while missing its core, which isnt stoicism at all. The core is virtue and virtue, to the stoics, isnt consequential, its principle. Virtue like all things, comes from the gods. Theres always reason to try because trying is virtuous and being virtuous is its own reward. A stoic doesnt die with regrets, why regret what you failed to accomplish if it was beyond your ability? To hold that mindset, requires honesty and dishonestly selling yourself short to avoid the work that doing your best to no avail is itself, not virtuous and conscience should, to the stoic's mind, tell you that. The problem with stoicism as people generally understand it is that they like the endpoint and try to cheat. Stoics dont repress negative emotions, they move past them by understanding. They dont brush off disappointment, they understand that theres nothing to be saddened by. Aurelius, from a young age, used to sleep on the floor to build up his resilience in the face of discomfort. Stoicism takes conditioning, you cant shortcut your way to being honest with yourself about how much effort you are putting in.

[@Tristan_Willcox]

When someone does this trick, what is the response you could give that reveals what they are doing? Ive been thinking about how christ says to be "wise as serpents and innocent as doves" so if the trick of the snake was to flip Gods words, then to be wise as serpents would be to flip back what they flipped to reveal the truth again. In this situation maybe a good response to them saying ____ is meaningless is just to remain completely silent until they ask you why you arent talking, and then you respond that all they are saying is a meaningless combination of air molequels. Maybe thats a way to flip this trick on its head.

[@arcguardian]

It's tricky because when most ppl do this, it's just to validate their bias. See the abortion topic, "it's just a clump of cells" the flip is pointing out so are they. The antidote seems to be challenging their consistency. "I'm fine with theft" till they get mugged etc.

[@synthklee]

Don't bother talking to them. Let evil be evil. Let the righteous be righteous. Time will come and they will pay. It will be the most satisfying moment ever.

[@themonsterunderyourbed9408]

@@arcguardian "It's just a clump of cells." "Yeah, so are you...".

[@GeneralProfessor]

One way is to question the arbitrary nature of their framing. In an "X is just Y" statement Y is always chosen arbitrarily and can always be further reduced to ever smaller components. Eventually you come to the conclusion that you don't know what anything is because your opinion is only based on the level of our current technological advancement. From there if you don't know what anything is you cannot claim that X is just Y because you don't even know what X actually is, let alone Y. Another way is to accept their framing and see what sort of evil it enables. For example if humans are just clumps of cells and walking flesh-machine sacks then all crimes against humanity are permissible and no human rights are needed. So if you feel like tearing out a human fetus in order to have sex with it before you bake it with urine and feces, turn it into a meal and serve it to your children to eat, there's no issues since that's just flesh-machine sacks interacting with each other - it's just clumps of cells participating in a meaningless event. Now if they agree with your gruesome example you know you're dealing with a narcissist / ideologue who will never admit to being wrong and from there you know that any conversation with such a person is a waste of time. Alternatively you're dealing with someone who is suffering from depression (there's some overlap between it and nihilism) or is mentally ill.

[@DrugsForRobots]

Was it a trick though? Or a comprehension test? Did the snake lie? Or did it speak in the name of God, have the truth of what it said come to pass, and have God confirm it's words as the truth? There's a riddle for you.

[@tommore3263]

Great point guys. We see before us the utterly astonishing concert of love in which we participate where the subatomic is formed into the unbelievably beautiful and we dismiss it to its lowest order components which are themselves utterly miraculous. We do truly live in the divine milieu. Thanks for pointing out the nihilistic depressive rhetorical device they use. Enjoy this miraculous day never seen before in the history of everything and never to be repeated. Cheers

[@wernervanwyk9324]

Well said Tom!

[@tommore3263]

@@wernervanwyk9324 Thank you sir. :-)

[@joshua-l6m]

The consequence of a materialist worldview. The metaphysical is reduced to illusion, when in practice it's as important as the physical.

[@dirtpoorrobins]

Neil-istic DeGrasse Tyson

[@gxhcbchchvfhbxsddvp96trg]

Neil is a lot of carbon and melanin.

[@josephtravers777]

and 60% water 😂

[@themonsterunderyourbed9408]

@@josephtravers777 and alot of hot air.

[@gxhcbchchvfhbxsddvp96trg]

3 hurrays for hydrogen oxygen carbon clump of cells!!!1

[@gxhcbchchvfhbxsddvp96trg]

I forgot keratin in his moustache 👺

[@Steve-wg3cr]

Great discussion. People may talk of nihilism in a theoretical sense but I think that few, if any, actually live that way. They find meaning in something.

[@SeraphsWitness]

Few actually live that way because they end up killing themselves.

[@zachhecita]

I don't think anyone really follows nihilism to its absolute conclusion. Depression, hedonism, suicide - all responses are anti-nihilistic. Action or inaction, it doesn't matter, so nihilism is a philosophically-bankrupt philosophy.

[@ippolit23]

"Just a bag of chemicals" is a good example of what Mary Midgley called "nothing-buttery."

[@chevi1483]

"Even for Buddhist compassion, the individual is only a shadow that vanishes. The dignity of the individual is a Christian cast made out of Greek clay." Nicolás Gómez Dávila

[@CIyphord]

"the stolen bikes in my garage? It's just metal that changed locations"

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

By the same token, all the words Degrass Tyson used to say that are just sounds that don't mean anything. Nothing real happens (no solstice, no vanishing of festivities, etc) when he made those noises. 🤷

[@SeraphsWitness]

That's a good point. Words themselves are just sounds crafted from vibrating vocal chords... but is that ALL they are? Of course not, because sounds have meaning and intent and purpose.

[@Mayhamsdead]

Listen to the person on the right of the screen, carefully. His anecdotes and the conclusion he comes to, as if he had an "Eurika!" moment... He accidentally described most of organized religion's sentiment when it comes to mortality: "This life? It's just a place to wipe your feet before your REAL, eternal life starts!" What an insidious thing to believe. What's worse is that he says it with such conviction, as if he's got it all figured out. What a terrifying example of lacking self-awareness.

[@switzerlandful]

1:40 Like the book *_In Defense of Looting_* (a funny book when you wonder whether the author would be OK with their house being looted or even the money in their pocket). And sad when you realize that some of the places that got looted & damaged during riots in the last several years had immigrant minority owners.

[@switzerlandful]

Not to mention the fact that some looters would prefer shooting anyone dead who tried to stop them from looting instead of going to jail (David Dorn).

[@ohmthepoet8428]

Yup, the beginnings of the American Communist experiment. I've never felt like any election mattered until this year and it's terrifying to think that someone who no one voted for and supported all of the looting and riots which were supposed to be about black lives but did nothing except ruin more black lives, and even her running mate was all about it too, his wife talked about sitting and smelling the burnt rubber in the air and taking it all in as it it was something good?? It's just insanity. I voted for Biden because I wasn't paying attention at the time and honestly I found it exhausting and meaningless, but now that I've actually started looking into the facts and sifting through the noise I've come to realize that though DJT is obviously not a perfect man who will be Americas saviour however he will be a net positive presidency and could help decide the future of the nation for the next generations because there will be supreme court nominations needed and especially if the Dems win they will force out anyone they can to bring in younger, more radical justices. It's truly a make or break election for this country and I've never felt that way or the need to be hyperbolic for no reason. It's a crazy world we are living in and the more we ignore it and decide to avoid the uncomfortable conversations that NEED to happen, the more this problem will worsen and the whole nation will look like Aurora CO rn and make the 'summer of love' riots look like an actual summer of love.

[@jessecerasus9621]

A friend of mine is sinking deeper and deeper into his suffering because of a Buddhist book he read. I told him he had to heal too, but he's so used to suffering that he'd be bored without it.

[@trapsenpai]

tell him to do metta meditation. lovingkindness meditation. the often left out secret that newbies to buddhism miss out on.

[@rigavitch]

@@trapsenpai Tell him to leave. I finally found the Orthodox Church after a lifetime in Mahayana Buddhism etc... Not confused any more!!! Phew!🙏🏼☦️

[@SweetPeteUnleashed]

​@@rigavitch Amen!... I spent 63 days of my life doing Buddhist inspired vipassana meditation retreats, which probably did more harm than good, but in just 3 months since being called to Christianity I've experienced some truly miraculous changes, countless questions answered and the cessation of so many self-destructive habits. Praise God! 🕊️

[@-Gorbi-]

“Macbeth is just English words put in order”

[@olerocker3470]

Something one out of a zillion monkeys with typewriters ...

[@CornerTalker]

Very similar to saying, "That's just a social construct."

[@KangMinseok]

Well, social science accepts that "social truth" is objectively measurable, so there's that. It's just that, if all humans would vanish tomorrow or have a collective amnesia, that "social truth" would vanish, while material truths of the physical world/universe would not.

[@CornerTalker]

@@KangMinseok The likelihood of either of these events is exceptionally low. People use this phrase to advise the young and gullible that they should expect no consequences to their actions.

[@KangMinseok]

@@CornerTalker This has nothing to do with likelihood (although even that can be debated, human existence is actually extremely fragile and dozens of species go extinct every year - in the grand timeline of the universe, our existence is miniscule). The point is simply this: We humans can create social truths that apply to us as a social group, like for example the objectively verifiable power that the social construct of money holds over our lives. Yet the value and power of money is itself not measurable by natural science, money would just be meaningless paper if humans would not exist and imagine value into it with our minds. Anyone who doesn't realize that social constructs have social consequences is an idiot, naturally, and scientifically.

[@CornerTalker]

@@KangMinseok And your last sentence was my thesis. We agree there.

[@KangMinseok]

@@CornerTalker Glad we established that then!

[@mattgravy5153]

Suffering is a result of our inability to let go of the ego, and of being stuck in material/cultural goals. That's not to say it should be ignored because it's an illusion. Suffering is suffering whether you're in an illusion or not. The Eastern 'all is illusion' is meant to wake us up to the fact that lots of our pain is self-made product of the ego, so we can go look into that inside ourselves. It's NOT saying that your suffering is not real so you should just ignore it. It invites you to reframe your suffering for a better outcome.

[@nerdcorner2680]

While what you are saying is true at times, it is not always true. Our Ego completes us and makes us whole, it connects us to others, and it drives us to reach our heightest peaks of self. If you have no concept of self then you have no concept of true love, of hobbies, or of drive. You cannot love and relate to another if you cannot sit in sadness with them, or get angry and protective over them. You lose the concept of ego and you lose the concept of self ownership. In practical terms your advice is perfect for those who hold onto pain longer than they should and it is time to let go (or holds onto that which should not affect us in the first place). Ego, embrace of suffering, and human flaws need to lived in for all other kinds of pain (it would be inhuman for your loved one to see peace in your eyes as they die a slow and horrific death in front of you. Screaming, crying, and begging for them to live shows your love for them in that moment and they would appreciate that and bond over it)

[@vangoghsear8657]

Some of the things Neil Degrasse Tyson will say will numb your brain. He's so reductive to the point where he's just being a plain idiot about it.

[@Animekirk]

I think that "trick" he mentioned in the video is actually a mechanism to expose how most of us in society today have completely forgotten / never learned in the first place WHY things are meaningful. We just assume they are because we've been told they are. So it's good to be confronted with this "trick" because it forces us to really analyze our own beliefs and reassess if, )a: if they were ever meaningful )b: if so, are they still meaningful? )c: if so, what is their meaning, and why?

[@adjustings673]

Is a meaningful existence a pre-requisite for happiness and fulfillment? Follow up question: what is the difference between a meaningful life and a meaningful connection?

[@trapsenpai]

@@adjustings673 meaning IS connection. whenever life is done with deep awareness of connection, it IS meaningful.

[@fooseballs308]

Whether something has "meaning" or not is subjective. Something only has meaning if we assign it.

[@WillyOrca]

Lol no that is just the logical conclusion of relativism. Youre right; nothing can have meaning in a world where everything is relative or subjective, but that fact doesn't in turn somehow serve as proof that everything IS relative.

[@natetaylor9744]

Rhetorical fun fact, you can go the other way. One can say X doesn't exist because X is really just some set of components. But one can ALSO say, X doesn't exist because X is actually part of or a subset of something other thing Y. Marriage doesn't exist, it's really just a type of contract. Conversations don't exist, because they're really just a type of competition. Relationships don't exist, because they are just expressions of power. You don't exist, because you're just an iteration of or a part of some social group. It's a very tedious trick, going in either direction, and I think doing it too much actually gives you brain damage.

[@viktoriaregis6645]

Like Jordan Peterson says: pain is real. And love. And truth. Maybe the most real. Or maybe not even maybe.

[@arcguardian]

Cept that example offers the alternative with equal weight, while the nihilist grants their reduction absolute.

[@zootsoot2006]

Nope, suffering is not real. Anyone who thinks that saying that suffering is not real is nihilistic and heartless is still just caught up in the seduction of suffering. Christ transcended suffering by being born again, that's the whole meaning of the story.

[@donquixote8462]

@@zootsoot2006 So when Paul says to share in Christ's suffering...? Armchair theologian.

[@zootsoot2006]

@@donquixote8462 As opposed to a full-action theologian?

[@donquixote8462]

@@zootsoot2006 As opposed to some one who has a single clue as to what they're talking about, in fact.

[@darrennew8211]

I'm pretty sure the guys who are Zen and say you don't have to care about anything really don't care about anything and don't care about "now what?" The whole point of Zen is there's no point in doing anything. You completely missed the point of Zen.

[@marenlatham4349]

Wow! This was amazing. And you're right! I will never un see this. Forgive me for saying something so crude, but I have used this tactic applied most to one of the most sacred things, which is the act of intimacy. The worst one I can think of is, "It's just banging uglies". Can you imagine a way to devalue and demean the meeting of souls in the act of total love and procreation more than that?

[@alexanderlyon]

Great video. There's also an implied "you idiot" after reducing something to its component parts. "You do realize that shaking hands is just touching two hands together. It's ridiculous (you idiot)." On the flip side, there's a lot of power in labeling the conversational moves people are making. The next reply should be exactly like these guys said, "I could say the same thing about anything by reducing it to its component parts, but that's a conversational dead end."

[@a.i.l1074]

YOU may enjoy coffee. YOU may think about the origin, the roast, the grind, the preparation, the flavours, the experience, sharing it in a café and having a conversation with someone you love I, however, am smart enough to know that it is, in fact, bean water

[@philipwillard6094]

Cherry pit water*

[@chris-bs1fu]

When he said “it’s December but guess what next month is” that hit me hard

[@kurtiscal3msetccdwell618]

Seeing that everything is an illusion enables you to see what has substance and is real.

[@bookishbrendan8875]

Watching my three-year-old daughter grow up, it is abundantly clear that we intuitively grasp universals. From very early on, she was able to point to an object-a tree, say-and call it by its name. Even abstract or conceptual objects like letters and numbers she points to and says their name, and even their phonic content. How would this be possible if the nominalistic reductionism so many peddle were true?

[@captainphoenix]

Here's a test you can apply: Does your three-year-old know the word "chair"? Point to the chair at the kitchen table and ask her if that's a chair. Now point to the La-Z-Boy in the living room and ask her if it's a chair. Now point to the couch next to the La-Z-Boy and ask her if it's a chair. Finally, move to the bathroom, point to the toilet, and ask her if it's a chair. The correct answers, obviously, are yes, yes, no, and no. You've probably never robotically defined to your daughter what constitutes a "chair" and what doesn't. You probably just pointed to the chair in the kitchen and said "chair". At some point, her eyes widened, you could visibly see the "lightbulb moment", and she said "chair". How many of those questions did she get right based only on you pointing to the kitchen table chair? All of them, probably. Thing is, what would you have to build into code to get a robot to do the same thing with perfect accuracy? It'd probably be and awful lot. And that's because even concepts as simple as "chair" have more to them than their physical constituent parts: there is something indescribable and that only exists in the human mind which is _essential_ to the word "chair", and even your three-year-old daughter can see it. And if she can see it without any deep and formal training in graduate-level philosophy, then it must be something simply baked into the human condition.

[@bigmeatswangin5837]

@@captainphoenix Object Recognition develops in three stages in early childhood. (i) the level of basic visual information processing, (ii) the level of perceptual content and (iii) the level of higher-order perceptual cognition.

[@scuffeddeimos]

@@captainphoenix Everyone knows a toilet is not a chair. It is a throne.

[@abrahemsamander3967]

Captain Phoenix. I love that idea!

[@robertbeisert3315]

At a minimum, we are designed with an amazing gift for pattern generation and recognition. I'm exactly autistic enough to occasionally be floored by how many things I must not have known at one time, but which are instinctive patterns with remarkable nuance today. One such pattern: never, in all my time, have I seen any system which contains more information than that fed into it. The greatest AI is dumber than the sum of its creators and knows less than all the information fed to it. We're awesome existences. How much more awesome must that be which created us?

[@wmjas]

To acquire indifference to pretty singing, to dancing, to the martial arts: Analyze the melody into the notes that form it, and as you hear each one, ask yourself whether you’re powerless against that. That should be enough to deter you. The same with dancing: individual movements and tableaux. And the same with the martial arts. And with everything - except virtue and what springs from it. Look at the individual parts and move from analysis to indifference. Apply this to life as a whole. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 11.2

[@jake.britton]

very interesting that Neil Degrass Tyson happened to do a podcast with Joe Rogan today, just 3 days after this podcast came out

[@cjregunay1668]

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! - Dracula, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night

[@synthklee]

"Reduce Things to its elements and declare it as meaningful" -thats there trick. Never pays attention to them in the first place. Let evil be evil. Let the good be good. The judgment will come. If they don't listen and believed its not our problem. All we have to do is to spread the gospel. Time will come...

[@SeraphsWitness]

That's the great irony, by deconstructing meaning, they're intending to say something meaningful.

[@bigmeatswangin5837]

Eh.. I wouldn't call it evil.. Just dumb and misguided.

[@SunwardRanger83]

Yes, nothing has any inherent meaning if you break it all down, but what that really means is you're free to attach meaning to whatever is truly important to you. There isn't one true meaning of life, but that just means you get to choose what gives your life meaning.

[@blakeavila4409]

Not true

[@SunwardRanger83]

@@blakeavila4409 Care to elaborate?

[@blakeavila4409]

@@SunwardRanger83 You know in your heart that pedophilia is morally wrong. In other words, the 'meaning' of children is not for sex. When you look at the world from an atheistic perspective, it doesn't match up with what you know in your heart to be true. I believe in absolute morality and objective truth/meaning, which is easily explained by the existence of a creator.

[@SunwardRanger83]

​@@blakeavila4409 Okay. first off, you're way off base starting out from assuming anyone just "knows in their heart," or that they agree with you on what's moral or not. Take the pedo thing for example, you and I may agree on that, it may seem pretty self-evident, but lots of cultures throughout history, and today would disagree. Evil barbarians by our standards, but they're not denying what's "in their hearts," they honestly think it's perfectly fine. That's the problem when you're dealing with morals, you aren't just going to guilt or shame people into agreeing with you if their moral code is that different. Now, on to the meaning thing. I'm speaking of objective, provable and impossible to deny meaning that holds true across all people and cultures. It doesn't exist. Now as they mentioned in the video, you can work from that point, deconstruct and break down pretty much anything until there's no real meaning to anything anymore. This is a pretty favorite tactic by nihilists when they want to justify doing something that's either against most moral codes, or just egregiously stupid. Break a concept down till it has no meaning, now since everything is meaningless you can do whatever you want whenever you want because nothing really matters in the first place. I prefer going the opposite direction. I grant the point that nothing has an inherent meaning that is objective and agreed upon by everybody. However, I then choose that which I care about and assign it a meaning that has relevance to me. I choose my own values, my own moral code, and I'm aware that not everyone will agree with me. I'm fine with that, but I'm also not going to associate with someone who's chosen values are too different from my own. For instance, a person who believes that religion is the meaning of life, and thus spends most of their time in worship is as far from me as someone who believes in rampant hedonism. I wouldn't waste time with either of those people. Lastly, your assumption that atheism goes against "what I know in my heart," and your assertion that there's an absolute morality that's explained by the existence of a creator. You're using some twisted logic. You believe that there's a creator, and you're simply declaring this belief to be an objective fact and then using that "fact" as the basis for your entire belief system, all your morals, and pretty much everything else. I'm not an atheist, but it has nothing to do with my heart, it's just that I find it mathematically unlikely that the universe would exist precisely as it does completely by chance. There's a lot of very circumstantial evidence that suggests to me that there's some sort of design. I could be completely wrong, there might be nothing, and even if I'm right I can only guess at the nature of any potential design or creator. Because of this uncertainty, the concept of a creator plays very little part in my personal system of morality and meaning.

[@blakeavila4409]

@@SunwardRanger83 My point was not to say that everyone agrees pedophilia is wrong. Obviously pedos do not, and there have been pedo societies in the past, as you said. My point was to say that you believe pedophilia is objectively wrong, for all people, not just for you and me. That is only possible if a creator exists. They only think it is okay because their consciences have been numbed by practicing it (Pederasty). Looking at cultures throughout history actually provides evidence of objective morality, as we see that they have more similarities than differences. You may have a point that meaning is not provable or impossible to deny. But I would argue that the harm caused by violating objective meaning/truth/purpose is provable and impossible to deny. Effectively, you're able to justify anything just like a nihilist does, you can just say it fall within your chosen moral code. You say it seems mathematically improbable for there not to be a creator. I think its logically impossible. If the universe has a first cause, that first cause must be uncaused, making it eternal. If the universe has no first cause, then it must be eternal, like a god. It seems like you think there is most likely a creator and therefore objective morality, but you're living in hedonism. Living in hedonism is something someone does who doesn't believe there is a creator.

[@Redant1Redant]

Yes, I have noticed what I call the "Dawkins move", that is similar to the Nihilist Trick. In the debates Richard Dawkins had with numerous religious leaders, there seemed to always come a point where Dawkins would be listening patiently to some religious point of belief and then asks in thoughtful tone, "what evidence do you have for this? " This innocent sounding question is actually a trick question in this context. They are debating religion vs. science, and Dawkins is asking the religious speaker to accept that Science as the only basis for Truth, in effect, to "prove" his belief in terms of science. That is absurd, i.e., to accept my truth as superior to yours while we are debating if Religion is "true". Not only does this throw the debate by begging the question, but it is impossible to answer to Dawkin's requirements. The spiritual world and its mode of description is very different from the scientific mode of description. They can both be true. But one can't be completely explained in terms of the other. (There are some interesting parallels perhaps, but I digress ...)

[@ramigilneas9274]

Of course the correct answer is that there is no evidence that your religious beliefs are true and that there is no reliable method to distinguish religious beliefs that are true from religious beliefs that are false.

[@Cinnamonbuns13]

This is called Presuppositional Apologetics. Doug Wilson uses it pretty humorously against Hitchens and Dan Barker.

[@SeraphsWitness]

@@ramigilneas9274 I don't think that's true at all. We have centuries of Evidentialist Apologetics. We use the same methods we use to verify any historical claims.

[@SeraphsWitness]

The great irony is that "Science is the only path to truth" is a PHILOSOPHICAL statement, and is itself not a statement provable by science.

[@ramigilneas9274]

@@SeraphsWitness How many miracles have been confirmed to be true by applying the historical method? Exactly zero. But of course you are correct… historians use the same methods to find out which of the stories about Jesus are historical, which are exaggerated or embellished and which were invented entirely.

[@M4gl4d]

Ah that reminds me of a friend's kid. Needs a bit of background I've been friends with A for a long time. He knows/gets me, so he knows I'm the thoughtful type. His kid walks over and starts commenting about how he's pro anarchy because natural right and the strong should own the weak and what not. Now, he's considerably tall for his age, so of course that bullshit gives him an advantage. I ask him: So you say that the strong should own whatever they want? "Yes." - he says - "That is correct." "And what about the law? The police? Kindness and mercy?" "An illusion" - he says - "Useless." "Alright. Say, is that Nintendo Switch new? What are you playing? Can I see it?" "Sure." - he hands it to me "Cool, now it's mine." "What? Give it back!" I stand up. "I'm bigger than you, stronger than you, smarter than you. By your own ideas, this is now mind. Go cry to the authority if you want it back, but then you'd have to admit your idea is fucking retarded and you only believe on it because it is convenient to you, specifically." He just stands there for a minute, stuttering, until I give it back to him. "I'm going to give it back to you, BECAUSE I am bigger, stronger and smarter than you, and that means mercy, kindness and politeness are things I can afford. Your bullshit is just that, bullshit." He shut up about it and was a lot kinder moving forward. He stopped bullying his classmates and abusing his pets.

[@apyorick]

I've been on to this game of Tyson for some years now. Jonathan is right: he does it constantly. He can and will do it with anything.

[@dash4800]

reduction is one of his tools, but he mostly favors "everything is infinite so nothing really matters". I remember coming to the conclusion that he was a moron masquerading as an intellectual back in college and being confused as to how anyone took him seriously. All he does is avoid meaningful conversations with word salad bullshit.

[@rustysmackleford2333]

@@dash4800 perfect assessment

[@Atreus21]

This video reminded me of something. Chesterton clued me into the nature of science when he said, "The sun rises because it is bewitched." If I were to give you a magic wand that, every time you shook it just so, produced a frog, science might then create a Law of Frog Creation, since the results were perfectly reliable. The wand wouldn't cease to be magic because its function had been described.

[@davidcooke8005]

'Any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic to the uninitiated." What if the wand could be reproduced? Would it still be magic? A caveman would think the computer you are using right now is magic. But it's not.

[@brendanbrady1291]

Jesus saves and he cares about our suffering.

[@Irockman1]

This video was nothing more than a series of ones and zeroes that another series of ones and zeroes turned into flashing lights and and vibrations in my room. I found it very insightful!

[@jabbbadahutt]

My favorite is the Joe Rogan “we’re just a bunch of apes driving metal boxes around on a space rock” quip

[@josephtravers777]

He does psychedelics to re-boot his brain, his words.

[@_whitewizard]

there is probably a very reddit'esque reply to what i will say but its funny that most of these types people claim everything is meaningless and just a bunch of chemicals, atoms and cells, but are outraged on behalf of oppression and war, and evil done by one form of cells and atoms to another which all are meaningless at least by what they claim. strange world if everything is meaningless then human beings living or dead are insignificant just as everything else.

[@Dre2Dee2]

"We're just animals, relax" and "Im a degenerate monster" tend to go hand in hand

[@cerebralm]

I don't get the sense that he's doing it out of an impulse towards nihilistic reductionism though. It's more that he's being critical of the hubris and cosmic/biological ignorance that has been produced by modern technology/society. And I applaud him for that. Unlike nihilists, he's trying to remember what we actually are. I'm not sure he's succeeding but I believe that's what he's trying to do.

[@jabbbadahutt]

@@cerebralm I think he’s attacking hubris, sure, but I’m not so sure he’s pointing to anything positive in return. Unless it’s some “return to monke” primitive mindset thing. I don’t know though, it’s been years since I’ve really listened to him.

[@tennoio1392]

It's a cheap trick to present something you dislike as insignificant. But it's not as disgusting as a religious mentality.

[@JulianGentry]

I don't believe you. You're just saying words in a sentence. lol love your videos. Great job!

[@-Gorbi-]

Rosa Parks? All she did was KEEP SITTING DOWN. Ridiculous!

[@ceddebruxelles]

The 9th symphonie is just series of sounds!

[@Domn879]

Except no-one ever says ‘christianity is just some guy nailed to a cross…thats dumb’. It is never the meaning Atheists dismiss, it is the truth of what is/isn’t…did/didn’t happen.

[@gergelymagyarosi9285]

The problem here is everything in the world is as valuable and meaningful as we, humans make it. Some people find this hard to digest.

[@timothyblazer1749]

The idea that suffering is Maya does not mean it isn't real. The sin of the West re:Buddhism is that they think that "dukkha" ( suffering ) is a statement. It isn't. It's a question. It's literally the first question you ask on the road to enlightenment. The Buddha could have said "sukkha" ( bliss ) was a problem to rectify, and it would have been equally true. He chose dukkha for the first "truth" so that people would be motivated to seek. It is a matter of some annoyance that this is done in the West. It results in misunderstandings like this. Suffering is to be consoled, not demeaned. Compassion demands it.

[@Mulletmanalive]

It’s worth noting that Buddhism isn’t nihilistic, you just weren’t immersed enough in it to have that viewpoint and it really doesn’t transfer cross culturally. Attitude wise, it’s far more like existentialism, in that everything you do matters and like stoicism, in that your mindset is hugely important. The trick is often timescale. Everything is fundamentally temporary, and as it is not truly permanent, it is effectively illusory on an infinite timescale. Westerners can’t easily think like that because we go to the afterlife and that’s it, but that isn’t the case in India (lesser extent on China and Japan, there’s a reason that the most popular forms there are Pure Land teachings). Buddhism is continuum reincarnation; a new being is formed from the end of your life and is a continuation of you, but not completely you (your whole life provides a seed for theirs but at the highest levels of spiritual enlightenment, it can be viewed almost like it’s the western conception of soul based reincarnation). Indian thought tied to the idea that only something that cannot change or expire can be truly real, everything else is essentially a temporary illusion, ergo everything is an illusion on a long enough timescale and treating them as more than temporary sensory encounters is a source of suffering. A simple example is that being distracted from pain makes it go away until you think about it again, thus the pain is a sensory illusion and the damage that caused it is part of a constantly renewing body, so that too is impermanent. Ramble over.

[@mythhead2688]

“Nothing means anything! Anyone wanna buy this thing?” -Norm McDonald on atheists.