How Do Ion Engines Work? The Most Efficient Propulsion System Out There

[@rustymustard7798]

If we have hopes of becoming a space-faring civilization, this is one technology to keep an ion!

[@frasercain]

Hah, I see what you did there.

[@pedrooliveira2089]

You king ahaha

[@Knight766]

AI will kill everyone, nice thought though.

[@benpaterson2237]

In space, no one can hear you badumtsh

[@Scarletraven87]

Masthapiece

[@captainmorgan2307]

I love it when I think of an incredible revolutionary idea and it's already been discovered...

[@linsleyboxill6863]

It just means your brains in the right train of thought. Keep thinking and dont give up

[@ilkka4716]

My thoughts exactly.

[@sachidanandamy]

I didn't expect someone else thought the same as me. Great humans we are.

[@eddyst4955]

And i find out i was completely right about it all

[@sachidanandamy]

@V-Vain Creations not all sats gets a refill . And many sats don't need a refill. Only few needs a refill and its not easy.

[@wolf1066]

I remember a time when Ion drives were purely theoretical and solely the province of science fiction. So glad to live to see them become reality.

[@lemmysverruca]

Umm, Ion drives have been used in space since 1972.

[@bob15479]

@@lemmysverruca Maybe *gasp* this guy was born before 1972.

[@goofyrice]

“A working ion thruster was built by Harold R. Kaufman in 1959 at the NASA Glenn Research Center facilities. It was similar to a gridded electrostatic ion thruster and used mercury for propellant. Suborbital tests were conducted during the 1960s and in 1964, the engine was sent into a suborbital flight aboard the Space Electric Rocket Test 1 (SERT 1).[10][11] It successfully operated for the planned 31 minutes before falling to Earth.[12] This test was followed by an orbital test, SERT-2, in 1970.[13][14]”

[@captiancholera8459]

Charles Rice my guess is he probably ain’t all knowing and might not be aware that ion engines have been around for that long, especially since I’m only now seeing a good deal of hype about them

[@j.jasonwentworth723]

@@lemmysverruca But ion drives were not used for *main* propulsion, to provide most of the change in velocity. You are right about their long use in space, but until NASA's Deep Space 1 mission, only very small ion thrusters were used--mostly as North-South station-keeping thrusters on geosynchronous orbit satellites, and occasionally as regular attitude control thrusters. These often-cylindrical ion thrusters were and are tiny, often no larger than a 29 mm or 38 mm hobbyist rocket motor, and only about 150 mm (6") or so long. Also: On many occasions (starting in the late 1960s, when several comets--not Great Comets, but scientifically interesting ones nonetheless--came within space probe range of the Earth), NASA wanted to fly ion drive-powered flyby and/or rendezvous missions to comets. They favored ion propulsion because such spacecraft, despite their often-large velocity change (delta-v) requirements in order to reach their targets, could have been smaller and cheaper, and could have been lofted by cheaper, small-to-moderate size launch vehicles, such as the Delta or Atlas-Centaur, but: The PIs (Principal Investigators--i.e., the chief scientists) of these proposed missions--articles about them are in old "Aviation Week & Space Technology" issues--always vetoed them, saying "You're not going to test an unproved propulsion system on *my* mission!" (or, 'from the other direction,' "I'm not going to spend years of time and millions of dollars developing instruments that will fly aboard an experimental spacecraft whose propulsion system may die [1960s/1970s-vintage ion engines not uncommonly failed early due to power supply, power conditioner, or thruster grid short circuits], long before it generates the necessary change of velocity to reach its target!"), and: Chemical propulsion alternative missions were designed, but they usually required larger, heavier probes, launched by bigger rockets (such as the Titan IIIC, as David S.F. Portree has covered on his space history website: spaceflighthistory.blogspot.com/search?q=comet ). The lower specific impulse levels of chemical propellants made such larger--and more expensive--spacecraft and launch vehicles necessary, and their higher costs, especially in the "budgetarily" lean post-Apollo years (when the Space Shuttle consumed much of NASA's budget allocations, leaving little for Solar System probes), made these chemical-propulsion comet missions financially impossible. To overcome these limitations, NASA "bit the bullet" and in 1998 flew a dedicated engineering test mission, Deep Space 1 (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_1 ), to prove ion drive main propulsion and eleven other promising-but-unproven deep space probe technologies (which are now used operationally)--these were: Solar Electric Propulsion Solar Concentrator Arrays Multi-functional Structure Miniature Integrated Camera and Imaging Spectrometer Ion and Electron Spectrometer Small Deep Space Transponder Ka-Band Solid State Power Amplifier Beacon Monitor Operations Autonomous Remote Agent Low Power Electronics Power Actuation and Switching Module Autonomous Navigation

[@twirlipofthemists3201]

Wow, the air breather sounds brilliant. I'd never heard of it.

[@frasercain]

Yeah, one of the most exciting developments I've heard of.

[@NoMoreForeignWars]

I approve!

[@gomo8651]

That one is actually being used with all commercial flight already....its just a secret...the airplane construction just doesnt fit the needs to carry all that fuel needed for a regular trip.

[@davidfrisken1617]

+Go Mo Plus, considering the flat nature of the earth,...........

[@haroldinho9930]

Twirlip Of The Mists so you’ve not flown plane????

[@lewismassie]

Ion engines are insane, in both range and time taken. I thought I knew everything about ion thrusters, but I did not know they'd run one for 5 years, or that they had a new design with whole newtons of trust. That's insane

[@frasercain]

Yeah, it's a really exciting tech. I'm looking forward to a time they get attached to nuclear reactors. :-)

[@Master_Therion]

What do you call an ion engine which has run out of fuel? An ioff engine.

[@DamianReloaded]

noi XD

[@ThatDudeEddiee0]

done with the internet for today, thank you.

[@davecrupel2817]

Out. Now.

[@greenmoldycows8919]

Daaaaaaaaaad

[@charlestorruella6140]

At lest you try to be funny most are funny just because they are dumb

[@tarassu]

Did you really say my fart has more thrust than multi-million dollar spacecraft?

[@frasercain]

It sure does. Especially yours.

[@tarassu]

@@frasercain Yours truly!

[@christopherg2347]

@@tarassu Well the multi-million dollar spacecraft is designed to fart for a realy, *really* long time instead. Days to months on end.

[@wolf1066]

When you can fart continuously for 5+ years, come and talk to us. Downwind, please.

[@ThomasAntoniusOlsenJr.333]

@@tarassu I bet if one could be exposed to the vacuum of space and one ripped off a good fart that one was holding in for awhile after eating some premium homemade chilli giving that fart a good heavy push lasting for 3 seconds would boost one an estimated 168 miles in just 3 seconds just from natural gas boost!

[@dartagnanx1]

I'm so pleased to see so many more subscribers over the years. You deserve continued success!

[@frasercain]

Thanks, that means a lot to me.

[@blowietube]

Amazing. I just saw a patent for an ion engine that releases ozone as a byproduct. I wonder if such a system could selectively use pollutants (CO2/Methane?) as fuel and serve as a kind of atmospheric scrubber?

[@alaididnalid7660]

Hmm... isn't the amount of pollutants too big to scrub with a couple of those engines though?

[@spookith]

@@alaididnalid7660 one maybe but if you have a whole lot of them I'm sure it could work

[@Circaman8]

They already have CO2 filters for the air. Some large petrol companies use them at their plants. They are trying to make them profitable by making the by product of the filtration into a compound that can be reused or resold for other purposes.

[@alaididnalid7660]

@@Circaman8 this got me thinking: an idea to clean the environment generally only works thoroughly if it is somehow cheaper to clean and reuse compared to not doing it. The problem with these machines (in the video) seems to me that they cost waaaay more per machine compared to the profit that can be achieved by reusing. However, it is good to consider many possibilities. To make matters worse, a working solution is sometimes used to justify pushing more pollution in the air. The biggest hurdle is obvious. It's our attitude as humans. We have the intelligence to understand that we are causing harm and yet the problem on the whole gets worse partly because we are with so Many and use so much no matter what we have learnt.

[@blowietube]

@@Circaman8Filtration is nothing new and I wont be holding my breath for a green solution from any petro.

[@nickvoelker7180]

So you're trying to tell me that Star Wars may have exaggerated the capabilities of ion engines? TIE (Twin Ion Engine) Fighter.

[@MetricImperialist]

It should be obvious considering the sound they make in space.

[@IvorMektin1701]

Nick Voelker George thought it sounded cool, like 12 parsecs 🙄

[@DamianReloaded]

Has anybody ever considered that in that galaxy far away people may have some sort of acute synesthesia that makes them hear things when they watch things going too fest? XD

[@nickvoelker7180]

Damian Reloaded You sir, have won the internet today 🏅

[@Mosern1977]

You know, when your engines makes sound in space - they are powerful!

[@TheFlipside]

I feel dumb. When you said that the space agencies were looking into ways of fueling ion engines with air siphoned from the atmosphere, I thought "what if you could make one that siphons the air that astronauts onboard exhale." Then I immediately realized the very obvious flaw with that :P

[@frasercain]

The whole running out of air problem? :-)

[@dicocraftgames6829]

no no no, humans create particles. The problem is that we would be leaving our DNA behind for all the aliens to collect.

[@naiknaik8812]

@@dicocraftgames6829 well the aliens would probably be happy knowing their not alone. Knowing that your the only living thing is quite sad.

[@KolchaksGhost]

Well, in theory the oxygen could be separated from the carbon and gets sent back out for the astronauts to breath but the carbon gets sent to the engine

[@nepnep1057]

@@KolchaksGhost yeah, but using carbon would def not be a good idea

[@joerahman1]

We’l all have to keep an ion this technology

[@frasercain]

I see what you did there...

[@joerahman1]

Fraser Cain I admit it wasn’t the wittiest of puns lol. Thanks for your reply 😊👍

[@bowiemtl]

Nice pun

[@joerahman1]

Bowie te Loo thanks, I thought of it all by myself 😜

[@yonexsp8448]

nah you stole it and didn't even type it correctly

[@ImmortalLemon]

I love how nasa was like “we don’t wanna put all these risky ideas on something we’ve got going good and messing them up… soooo like just staple all of them to one thing and huck it into space and see how it goes”

[@nikhathfatima2947]

Ikr

[@CUXOB2]

If the earth was heavier, chemical rockets would not be able to get to any decent height. Are civilizations on massive planets doomed to never have nice things?

[@frasercain]

It would still be possible, but much harder. You'd need monster rockets to launch tiny payloads.

[@gp849]

I beleve all things are relitive. If the gravity was stronger than the chemicals should be more dense ,leading to more energy per volume of a material and should thereatacly be equal. (Just my thought).

[@tmcdon4ld]

Balloons should work better on heavy planets with dense atmospheres and an aerodynamic balloon with correct propulsion should be able to accelerate in to orbit especially if you can propel it using magnetic fields acting against the magnetic field of the planet. This is currently being explored for getting cargo into space from earth and the concept is the most appealing and realistic ways of getting cargo to orbit I have seen.

[@mairisberzins8677]

@@gp849 Density isn't dependant of gravity. YEa you can compress somehting with a hydraulic press, but that won't make it any denser relatively speaking. I mean take toilet paper,press it in many layers. You will still get something that isn't as dense as wood cuz there are tiny air packets in the paper. You can only compress something to the density that of perfect crystal without any space between. COmpress any further and you no longer have the chemical you had. Fucking have a neutron star. That being said. There will be a point for matter where force exerted on it will be just over what it needs to overcome intermolecular repulsion forces and basicly mash atoms together making either a black hole if it's mass is enough or a neutron star.

[@woodstockjon420]

@@gp849 Generally Relative 😉

[@zapfanzapfan]

I vote for a nuclear powered ion engine to get an orbiter to Pluto. Get Alan Stern on it! :-)

[@massimookissed1023]

zapfanzapfan , given the total mass of the nuclear power plant and ion thruster, you may as well use a chemical rocket.

[@zapfanzapfan]

It doesn't weigh *that* much, not much shielding required because space is full of radiation anyway :-)

[@DamianReloaded]

You would need miles of radiators to dissipate the heat tho.

[@zapfanzapfan]

Maybe not miles but quite big, that's why JIMO looked like a Star Destroyer. Reactor in the nose, bit of shielding behind it and then a couple of hundred square meters of radiators.

[@DamianReloaded]

Yeah and RTG would be just fine. I think Massimo meant a ground based size nuclear plant tho ^_^

[@johnhinckley4067]

This is awesome! I actually design, analyze and build hall effect thrusters for a living. :D I love seeing videos about them, makes me feel like i am making a difference!

[@frasercain]

Oh great, thanks for your work! You're making a difference. :-)

[@dante_da_beast8859]

Thank you. You're an awesome person.

[@To-mos]

Now I want to go play Kerbal Space Program.

[@frasercain]

I'm glad they've got Ion Engines in KSP. :-)

[@convolutedpeppercorn1078]

Why wait? It is only *60* fecking dollars on Steam

[@ACE999]

I suppose it's a start, like my first Commodore 64? Zero to 60 in three weeks? "We'll get to the Death Star in 2,000 years cap'n!"

[@frasercain]

I think the math checks out.

[@foksai1699]

Speed in space raise with engine on...

[@AnonymousFreakYT]

I know the major limitation of Ion engines is the low thrust (in Newtons/lb) and that the limit for that is electrical energy. I can't seem to find good numbers on thrust/watt, though - how much power (how powerful a nuclear reactor) would be needed to achieve 1G acceleration from an Ion engine for, say, a Dragon/CST-100 size spacecraft? (~10,000kg)

[@padmanabhaprasannasimha5385]

I know that this is 10 months too late but I've done the calculations for you.. Assuming a specific impulse of 3000 seconds and an efficiency of 70% (which is typical of NASA's small sized ion thrusters), you'd need about 2.061 Giga Watts (GW) of power to propel a 10000 kg spacecraft at 1g initially. Too much power required. Impossible. On the other hand, if you are content with an initial acceleration of 1mm/s^2 or 0.000102g, then you need 210kW of electrical power supplied to the thruster. Assuming you have allocated about 3000kg to the solar panels of the spacecraft, your panels would have to have a specific power of about 70 Watts/kg. Not impossible but extraordinarily challenging. NASA's Dawn probe's panels at 1AU generated about 79 Watts/kg. And panels are getting more efficient and lighter day by day. Another 3000kg would probably go to propellants, 2000kg to structural mass and other subsystems. That'd leave you with a useful cargo carrying capacity of about 2000kg. The total delta V that you'd be able to execute with this configuration is about 10.49 km/s which is about the right value.

[@rafael6693]

Padmanabha Prasanna Simha i know it’s 10 month too late but what do you think it will be the propulsion rocket/spacecraft technology in the future.

[@timothyboulton2612]

@@rafael6693 nuclear power supply will be necessary for tavel and on Mars for first missions

[@jerry3790]

Not surprised a mission involving an onboard nuclear reactor got cancelled.

[@frasercain]

But they also just announced a new reactor called kilopower, so who knows what's going to happen.

[@zachcrawford5]

I have been hearing great things about laser based particle accelerators. Could we use these as engines to accelerate spacecraft? It seems like shooting atoms off at relativistic speeds would pack more punch than shooting them off at 90km/s.

[@bygabtier1137]

Your videos are getting better every day Fraser

[@frasercain]

Thanks a lot, practice is the trick.

[@theJellyjoker]

I'm gonna keep my ion them.

[@frasercain]

Smart move.

[@Cromwell564]

So could a probe with an Ion Thruster refuel from say Jupiter then leave orbit and continue into the solar system?

[@frasercain]

The problem is that Jupiter's gravity is really intense. But Titan would work great.

[@Cromwell564]

So theoretically a modern probe could be sent to catch up with Voyager scan the area take photos of Voyager to see it's external condition and continue out beyond sending us back some awesome telemetry.

[@Babayaga11111]

8:35 rock: hey space station Space station: No PLZ rock: that's my job I'm sorry: C solar panel: NOOOOOOOOOO

[@Tehom1]

Glad you mentioned hall effect thrusters. Those are in use! Not as main engines, but as secondary station-keeping microthrusters for satellites. They like them because they can be turned on and off on a dime, giving them extremely precise control.

[@frasercain]

Yeah, it's a fantastic propulsion system.

[@exoplanets]

Very interesting!

[@frasercain]

Thanks!

[@HVYMETL]

The power electronics which create the ions, the magnetic fields to guide the ions, and the electric field to accelerate the ions is a pretty trick achievement.

[@grampton]

It's crazy how scientists developed something like this at such a low budget

[@frasercain]

Yup, it's an amazing technology.

[@dicocraftgames6829]

if I'm not wrong they probably made it because of the low budget. I mean if you can't pay for fuel why not make something that uses less fuel.

[@nikolisdex]

@Titan Power guess what . It's the same companies that run the business. It's Space and Defence industry

[@ItsmeBish584]

@@nikolisdex uh no. The DOD runs a secret space program and details of what they're launching into space is for the most part kept under wraps. Their budget and projects are kept secret. They get far more funding that NASA who is ran separately.

[@David-bc4rh]

I came here not by algorithm, but by search. I had just remembered a video from years ago about sucessfully using ion thrust on a model airplane. Blew my mind seeing something fly around a room without mechanical propulsion.

[@madvulcan8964]

Could you put the Ion reaction or the plasma stream by some means under high pressure, would that increase the speed?

[@claudiobruno3194]

Raising pressure would increase the rate at which ions and electrons recombine to form neutral atoms, and neutral atoms of course cannot be accelerated by an electric or electro-magnetic field ...The limit to how much thrust you can generate is precisely this, that you cannot ionize a gas at high pressure except at the price of extremely high energy consumption. I found odd the video did not mention this.

[@Wootwootscoot]

An atmospheric ion thruster based satillite would only be able to run about 20 years before the the solar panels began to loose a significant portion of their efficiency, limiting the systems lifetime. So even if parts did not begin to fail, on the basis of solar technology alone, their lifetime would not be indefinite. Awesome video non the less! Great work!!

[@SkyDiving_StormTrooper]

Hi Fraser. Great work as always. Could you explain what a Vasimr thruster is? Maybe a video or even just in your Q and A. Thanks.

[@frasercain]

Sure, I'll add that to the list.

[@WernerEngel1]

Did you already know about the Field-Emission-Electric-Propulsion Thruster? It's been built already : kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWTWholuZZt4Y9E

[@frasercain]

Oh wow, that's awesome, I'll check that out.

[@ericthehalfmexican9187]

I will have to keep an eye-on this technology 😉

[@frasercain]

I see what you did there.

[@KraussEMUS1]

Watch an ion thruster lift off from the ground! kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5XKYZKen9qeqbM

[@mikldude9376]

Actually rocket engines do still look pretty cool , and im only guessing how they mechanically work , and im probably wrong , but it freaks me out to think thrust coming out of exhaust nozzles lift all that weight , the exhaust nozzles must be made of pretty cool stuff . It occured to me that exhaust velocity must have a limit , and once you where in space and just on cruise control on your long journey so too speak, and trying to attain highest speed over a longer period of time , could they narrow the venturi to attain less volume of thrust but more pressure at a higher velocity over a period of time so it works sort of like the ion thrusters ..... in a way using way less fuel ????? no doubt the rocket dudes have experimented with all this stuff , but just a thought anyway .

[@frasercain]

Yeah, rocket engines really are wonders of engineering when you think about the forces involved. :-) The problem is that exploding rocket fuel has a maximum speed that the exhaust gases can escape. If you narrow it too much, you'll just get the rocket exploding.

[@mikldude9376]

Fraser Cain yep , that would be a problem .

[@stuartgray5877]

Actually if you have had ZERO education about rocket propulsion and you already "get that concept" you should probably be an engineer. Lookup the term "ISP" and then research the VASIMIR engine.

[@sawspitfire422]

I second Stuart, you've managed to almost accidentally explain some pretty complicated concepts in rocket propulsion there! Maybe look into it a bit more, the more minds we have working in science the better

[@krupert8355]

Hey mikldude, I just watched a video by Curious Droid explaining the issues with designing the nozzle shapes of rocket engines, Scott Manley also has a video on the topic. Basically the idea is that the air pressure at low altitude presses the exhaust closer together, and at low to no atmosphere pressure, the ejected gases expand and make a giant plume of fire that isn't very directed. So nozzles are built with a compromise, kind of like if your car had a single gear and the engineers had to pick which one that would be. There are alternative nozzle designs that have been invented and have existed for a long time called the Aerospike which lets the air pressure form the ideal exhaust shape by itself, however these haven't really been implemented, mostly due to overheating issues and since they would be experimental, companies aren't willing to take the risk of trying new things. I'll link to you two videos you might find interesting. Video by Curious Droid about the Aerospike: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWXdd5icnZqHY5o Video by Scott Manley about rocket engine exhaust nozzles: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ombPZHZ-jNR7ias Hope you'll find these interesting :) keep learning, keep thinking, and keep asking questions!

[@enceladus32]

Positively electrifying. I'll keep my ion you for any new shocking space facts now that I know the potential of this channel. My resistance was unjustified, glad to find this outlet of science.

[@frasercain]

I see what you did there. :-)

[@tHeWasTeDYouTh]

the Empire uses twin ion engines on their Tie Fighters. The Emperor knows what he is doing

[@frasercain]

Exactly, best propulsion system ever.

[@allenh.2656]

Fraser, what would it feel like if you passes your hand close behind an ion engine while it was running?

[@frasercain]

You might feel a slight warmth and breeze. But it wouldn't be much.

[@erkkiruohtula632]

Ion engines are a surprisingly old idea, even though most practical applications are fairly new. I recall seeing a photograph of an experimental ion engine being tested in a Finnish encyclopedia from the mid 1960's.

[@frasercain]

The Bepicolumbo mission has the most powerful one ever sent to space, and it's about to turn it on for the first time. Pretty exciting to see these ion engines getting used.

[@mitseraffej5812]

In essence ion thrusters are little different from the first steam engine, that is accelerate a propellant and use it to do some work. This will never cut the mustard if humanity wants to traverse the galaxy.

[@ryanm.191]

Space isn’t a perfect void There are atoms, and I can’t remember the exact figure, but it’s like 5 per m^3 Why don’t they look at using these? Would take a very king time, but maybe using gigawatts of electricity may make interplanetary missions feasible or even comparable with current ion engines

[@frasercain]

I'm not sure what kind of a scoop you'd need to be able to draw them in, but it's a pretty great idea.

[@yggdrasil9039]

That's a good idea.

[@ryanm.191]

Fraser Cain say they’re ions and positively charged, use a negative magnetic field to draw them in, then reverse the field. This could be easily made with current tech. Interuptors and full bridge rectifiers would enable this. The ‘scoop’ could just be a hollow column down the middle of the craft. since the field would draw the atoms in, it would suck in atoms from outside its cross sectional area Powered entirely by solar, however a lot of the weight would be capacitors batteries and the solar panels would need to be massive. The trust to weight would be abysmal, but theoretically it could work. Like current ion engines, it would be measured in 1 1000ths of a Newton, but would be able to function indefinitely since it doesn’t require xenon, or any fuel at all.

[@neurofiedyamato8763]

I think the problem is that it isn't enough to sustain the engine. Like inetrnal combustion engines can't work at higher altitudes due to thin atmosphere.

[@monkieassasin]

Like Neurofied said, there just isnt enough particles. 5300 per cubic meter SOUNDS like a lot, but its barely anything. Even these ion thrusters use orders of magnitude more particles. The dot of the letter i that you write for example, has something on the order of 10^12 atoms in it.

[@bowlampar]

It meet the unique propulsion environment in our outer space. Cool!

[@pedror598]

What would happen if I put my hand behind an active ion engine?

[@fsmoura]

as long as you keep an ion the "flame" it should be alright

[@orbitONhigh]

Well ignoring the hard vacuum and assuming a moderat 2kW thruster it would be very similar to putting you hand in a oven set to a few hundred degrees. Ie it would burn eventually but not right away. can't say I've seen meat behind one but I have seen odd things put behind them. Grad students get bored too. ;)

[@pedror598]

orbitONhigh Haha, sounds cool. Tell me something, if you have some time: •What is the average number of ions being launched backwards by these things? •Is there any way to control the thrust produced by these engines? If so, how's that done?

[@DamianReloaded]

I think some guy on youtube put a piece of paper behind a little one and it didn't get burned. Maybe it'd feel like a hair drier at first and just as a hair drier it would dry and heat up your hand until it carbonizes?

[@orbitONhigh]

well the one I worked with ran at a couple amps and a few hundred volts. Ideally your ions are singly charge ie you knock 1 electron of the atom. So that would work out to roughly 1Q=1A/s =6.2x10^18 so at ~3 amps thats ~1.8x10^19 ions/ second might want to knock off a few hundred quadrillion to efficiency losses though:) thrust is roughly a function of power. More amps means you are throwing more ions, high voltage you are throwing them faster ie accelerating them harder, Newtons old equation give you thrust F=MA, In reality you can't control voltage and current independently of each other though and there are practical limit for any give design on how much power/voltage/current it can handle.

[@chlee8985]

Hi Fraser. I'm student studying aerospace engineering. I wonder if where did you get the video source. Please let me know. That is really helpful to me.

[@frasercain]

If you look at the show notes, I put in all the references

[@dartagnanx1]

I'm just so glad to be living in the ion age.

[@frasercain]

As opposed to the iron age.

[@davidc.pierce9631]

This reminds me of Harlan Ellison, who pursued the realization of Ion Propulsion engines. So glad to see this vid, and thanks for recalling fond memories. 👍

[@chrispusbaganda3359]

Suddenly I can make Tony Stark's thrusters

[@ThePigeon5734]

seriously this is Star Wars level technology. TIE fighters are literally just Twin Ion Engine.

[@BartBuilds]

I'm gonna keep an Ion this

[@joethestrat]

Quit being so negative ;)

[@ChristiaanCorthals]

What exactly is the purpose of the neutralizer (shown at time idex 3:27)?

[@frasercain]

To get rid of the excess charge, I believe.

[@mikldude9376]

Ion engines sound cool , but they need to get serious , if i had some curry for tea i could moon out the porthole and fart more thrust :) (might be a bit chilli though ) ..... they need to make them big , make them 10 or 50 metres across , we are not trying to fit them in the car park , we just need more power !!! :) . And maybe im barking up the wrong tree , but instead of wimpy solar panels for power , why not use nucleer power like a submarine power unit or two ???? And maybe if they did power it big , they could afford to make the ship bigger and better equipped ?? Something i should have asked first , (forgive my ignorance ) , what are the properties of the ion thruster exhaust emmisions ? if i stuck my hand in front of the working exhaust would it glow in the dark or would it vaporize ??? Good video and subject by the way , thank you .

[@frasercain]

As I mentioned in the video, nuclear powered ion thrusters have been considered but the technology has been shelved for now. :-(

[@mikldude9376]

Fraser Cain sorry i missed that bit ( forgive me i`m old :( ) , i guess it is easy throw ideas up , but very expensive to pay for them , still ...... exciting times in the space industry . Thanks for your good videos and the replys mate , always interesting . cheers.

[@frederickstirnkorb3094]

Fraser Cain Maybe if BFR gets online they would revive it. NASA should leave orbital stuff to commercial provider's and go for the deep space projects that are more bleeding edge.

[@To-mos]

If it's going to be a bit "chilli" I'll grab a spoon.

[@shubhamdeshpande6320]

Hey, I have a question, wouldn't we have a bit of a storage problem in this as well (as compared to the conventional liquid fuel based propulsion) , I mean, like, you would have to store the xenon somewhere right? And, also, if we eject a huge number of ions at a time, wouldn't we get acceleration comparable to that of conventional engines?

[@jaredmehl1686]

I do agree ion engines are more efficient, and practical, but the output of energy from a small amount of ion engines just isn't enough to lift, say, a 500 Ton rocket. Not without requiring a massive amount of thrusters. The best thing to do is set up orbital space stations assembled piece by piece, and construct larger ships in zero gravity, then have those ships be propelled by ion engines. It would require more hydrogen fuel to launch the parts into space, sure, but could prove useful for making larger ships. It's just common sense, really.

[@frasercain]

Yeah, this tech only works when you're already out in space. Build structures in space and then use ion engines to get around.

[@jaredmehl1686]

@@frasercain Love the channel and your videos by the way, I'm an aspiring aerospace engineer myself. What field of work is your career in? Is it space oriented, because judging by your content I'd guess so!

[@luigidaniele6175]

The amount of resources it takes to launch all the parts into orbit individually would be more than the resources to just launch the whole thing in the first place, just doesn't make sense. It's like saying, "Instead of driving straight to the supermarket just drive over the hill and then you use less gas because you go down hill" but it doesn't work because you'll use more gas going uphill

[@joethestrat]

@@luigidaniele6175 THATS why you set up mining and refining/manufacturing stations on the moon! Plenty of raw materials there for us.

[@anand.suralkar]

I have a doubt cant we just use helium (hot air)balloon to reach at the halfway from end of atmosphere and can we even use a light thin vaccume chamber maybe made of graphene or something to make balloon like thing to reach almost edge of space and then just launch our small ion thruster rocketor sattelite slowly. Is this even possible practically i m really curious

[@frasercain]

The challenge would be getting that sideways velocity that you need to go into orbit, but there are some balloon-based launch systems in the works. I'll probably do a video on them soon.

[@JackBBaltzer]

We need an Epstein Drive... #SaveTheExpanse

[@frasercain]

No kidding. I wish I could talk about the state of fusion drives, but they don't exist... yet.

[@sportsfails4998]

Fraser Cain an Epstein (fusion) drives would be the best of both worlds. The acceleration of chemical rngines with the efficiency of ion engines.

[@baronvonkaiser9912]

So if i can say perhaps, eject the atoms out even faster and send out more of em at a time i can make it more powerful? What about finding some way of ejecting them out of a nozzel like thing. Cuz i know with alot of things you can get alot more force out of ejecting a substance if its concentrated amd directed a certain way instead of every wich direction. At my job (keep in mind i know these things arent exactly the same) we have a hose or whatever jus a regular waterhose and we got a thing on it where we can change the way the watet comes out. And i noticed you get alot more force if you concentrate the water into a jet than if it was jus out and flying about in the general direction of whrte your pointing.

[@klausgartenstiel4586]

i love xenon. it makes my voice sound like thor's.

[@frasercain]

I didn't realize it had that effect. :-)

[@klausgartenstiel4586]

Fraser Cain its from an episode of "qi", the grand daddy of edutainment ;>

[@zacgan1845]

wot if you run out of xenon? defuk. or does it only use such small quantities at a time that a small tank would last ages?

[@frasercain]

Then you're out of propellant.

[@hellfiresiayan]

That air breathing one would be perfect for a deorbiting vessel! Changing orbits constantly and efficiently makes the problem only a matter of time.

[@moneyeye24]

2:25-2:35, what is the small tube on top? Why does it siphoned out electrons? Would you plz draw a diagram of how hall effect is applied in an ion engine ?

[@claudiobruno3194]

If you keep throwing out ions the spacecraft would charge more and more negatively by the electrons remaining on-board. You need to discharge electrons to prevent the on-board electronics from frying...And the electrons jetted out will recombine with the ions ejected and form neutral atoms again.

[@EricPham-gr8pg]

High frequency light and high intensity and high refreshing rate can make light as strong thousand times of rocket thrust by weight comparison

[@marcorodriguez8477]

I love these videos. I would love to see other technologies that are being developed for rocket propulsion

[@frasercain]

What kind of tech? We've talked about laser propulsion, electric sails and more.

[@marcorodriguez8477]

How about sci-fi ideas that could be used in the distant future? I just want to see more lol

[@gabedarrett1301]

What does the electron gun (cathode neutralizer) do and why?

[@frasercain]

That's what ejects more electrons into the chamber to ionize the xenon atoms.

[@rJaune]

Why do you need to shoot out electrons as well? (Around the 3 minute mark electrons are also being sent out of the engine.)

[@frasercain]

To get rid of excessive charge in the spacecraft?

[@mairisberzins8677]

@@frasercain Obviously. Probably if the electrons stay on the spacecraft it will become severely negatively charged and who knows maybe positive ions wouldn't want to leave anymore. Kinda like it takes more and more energy to rip off electrons from neutral atom with each electron after needing a larger energy to rip off. At some point the magnet wouldn't be able to send the kations out

[@sixsixteensevens297]

Great Vid on Ion engines thanks.

[@frasercain]

I'm really glad you enjoyed it.

[@BenMartinez]

How small can we make these things? feasibility of bunch 1000+ together in a relatively small area?

[@misterdoctor8234]

Thank you Mr Cain for another enjoyable video

[@frasercain]

Thanks for watching!

[@R3tr0V3rt1g0]

Always nice when a major news outlet features your video in an article. You're a consulting expert now Fraiser.

[@frasercain]

Oh, where did you see it?

[@frasercain]

Oh, hah, Russia Today?

[@R3tr0V3rt1g0]

@@frasercain Yep thats the place, was not what i was expecting when I opened that article, though somehow fitting.

[@landonferguson7282]

Does the xeon get used up, or does it just stay in the chamber without going out of the chamber?

[@doncarlodivargas5497]

This was a really nice video Fraser, this kind of space stuff is so interesting, could you do the same with other types of 'space' technology? Great work, we appreciate your immensely

[@frasercain]

No problem, lots more space technology to look it.

[@markpurcell8075]

Where do the electrons go, are they ejected? I would think the low self capacitance would cause the voltage to rise, or is that not an issue unless coming into contact with something?

[@hgw90026]

Since ions have a little bit of mass, what will happen if the engine was pointed as a person or even at a planet. Are you shooting little bullets at whatever is opposite the engine?

[@frasercain]

You might get a bit of a burn if you left your hand in front of it for a while.

[@clydealbania9457]

2 questions is xenon rare or very rare and does any rocket has already used this new engine?

[@frasercain]

Yes, there are several spacecraft out there with ion engines already. Dawn is one of the best examples.

[@clydealbania9457]

Fraser Cain wow cool ,thank you !

[@TheCaffeineKid]

Hi there Frasier. Great video about ion drives. Have you looked into Mach Effect thrusters, and the Mega drive at all? I would love to hear what you think of these new drives and if you think they have a future.

[@frasercain]

I haven't, but I'll look into them.

[@TheCaffeineKid]

Thanks, and just noticed the terrible auto-correct on your name. My apologies. Mega is an acronym for Mach Effect Gravity Assist drive btw, just on the 1% chance you were not aware and needed another search term. :)

[@JohnLudlow]

Question: A star-forming nebula is kinda disperse, but at some point gas collapses to form a star and planets. How long does that take, and how long does it stay in the intermediate stages, where the pressure would be noticable? Thanks

[@frasercain]

It takes hundreds of millions of years to collapse, and turn on as a star.

[@morganoverbay8783]

I've designed a radical new drive that uses super hyper compressed gullibility mixed with hyper super fluffed stupidity. Theoretically, the gasses exhaust at light speed, but I haven't got the bugs all worked out of the super hyper fluffer... The fuel supply, though, seems to be inexhaustable.

[@RovanRCTube]

With no atmosphere no drag, Wouldn’t need propulsion once set in motion. So there is something that smells rotten here. The thrust would only have to be till craft is up to speed. Then you’ll need reverse or side thrust to stop or change direction.

[@frasercain]

I don't understand what you are saying. If you want to slow down, you have to turn around and thrust in the opposite direction

[@RovanRCTube]

Or reverse thrusters.

[@RovanRCTube]

Newton’s third law would dictate the ship in 0 gravity (Note the space station has micro-gravity), would continue forever without propulsion without need for more fuel after it is up to speed. So you would need very little fuel. The thrust gas would also go in the opposite direction forever or until it meets something else. And the next fuel or thrust would be needed to stop.

[@gumunduringigumundsson9344]

Nexus engine 3.0 4tw!!! Always good to see your new posts. Great work.

[@frasercain]

Thanks!

[@DavidCzuba]

Well done, Fraser!

[@shadowwalker2145]

How you seperate the electrons from an atom? Or where do you get your electrons from?

[@ericdark6183]

[Vulcan Eyebrow] Fascinating💯

[@RawSpaceVideos]

Thank you for ending on a hopeful note. There are too many stories of "We had this amazing idea for a solar system mission... but the project was scrapped." The current generation of ion engines use krypton, right? At what rate do they consume fuel? Weeks of constant thrust means weeks of depleting its source of ionizable atoms.

[@Armand__]

thank you for putting your sources in the description, i need those for a research paper

[@martijnschuman]

What do you think SpaceX will do after BFR. Do you think that do will do the same thing as with F9 with the different blocks and stuff like that. Or will they make an even bigger and better rocket to go to other sollestial body's.

[@frasercain]

If the BFR works and it's fully reusable, I'm assuming they'll focus on making it more reliable and less expensive to operate.

[@granddukeofmecklenburg]

If BFR actually happens, theyll probably refine it, and itll probably be used for decades the come...Chemical Rockets are going nowhere for the foreseeable future...Atleast for achieving orbit

[@saponi78]

I do have one question about this. For the air breathing overtime what type of effect would it have on our atmosphere? if it's taking a little at a time to continue to propel itself? if it can last forever how much of the atmosphere would have damaged?

[@supadude1013]

wow. An honest video that doesn't lie to you. Great Work.

[@jhyland87]

3:34 whats the thingy on top thats spitting out the electrons?..

[@basknation]

Always great videos FC. Thanks

[@frasercain]

Thanks a lot!

[@andrewcamarillo908]

dude, great video. Good job.

[@mohnishjamde3855]

Ion Engine is surely our future. Thank you for providing this knowledge. This engine is very much interesting, I'm eagerly waiting for the day when we will use Ion Engines very comfortably. I'll go for researching about this to gain more knowledge.

[@frasercain]

They're already in use. Starlink satellites have ion engines too.

[@mariuszmach2059]

particle accelerator as a electron feeder for the ion engines. glad that i helped.

[@RobDucharme]

I remember in grade 12, I wrote a short story based on a song (the other option was based on a poem, but I wasn't big on plain ol' poetry). I turned the song into a sci-fi drama and at one point, actually used the term "ion engine." That was 1994. I'm not certain where I got the idea (I didn't use the internet at that point, much like most people didn't). It's possible I read about them in Astronomy Magazine though..

[@frasercain]

They're also the engines used in Star Wars. That's what Tie Fighters use.

[@therealEmpyre]

I wonder if this could be scaled up to provide a full G of continuous acceleration for interstellar travel.

[@frasercain]

No, it lets you get faster than a rocket, but no where near light speed. You need light sails or photonic engines for that.

[@therealEmpyre]

I see now. I should have thought it through. The engine couldn't get the rocket to go faster then what it is throwing out.

[@YK-hh7vs]

Very interseting video. You explained it in an understandable way. I wonder how long can these engines work.

[@frasercain]

Thanks for watching. 😀

[@MyLittleMagneton]

How long would it take to reach ...say half the speed of light with a conventional ion engine?

[@_Andrew2002]

Using the acceleration from the first one, which probably had much slower acceleration than modern ones. It would take 66575 years to get half the speed of light. Voyager-1 will have already reached the AC +79 3888 system

[@_Andrew2002]

However the ion thrusters in ksp would get you to 50% the speed of light in 13.5 years

[@martinwilliams9866]

Just had a thought, can the exhaust of a chemical rocket be ionised to increase its efficiency?

[@CastFromTheHip]

Awesome discussion, great job on the video!

[@sickbailey21]

These are pretty interesting engines, the concept of using them alongside a nuclear reactor for orders of magnitude more thrust is also pretty exciting too. I guess we just have to keep watching this space and see how the ideas evolve. I would expect that over the next decade we will make decent leaps in solar power generation too, which could lead to a safer and much more powerful ion engine than we have access to today.

[@frasercain]

Yup, and now that NASA announced their kilopower fission reactor, there might be a technology that'll be able to provide the higher levels of electricity to run these engines.

[@sickbailey21]

I just did some reading about this kilopower fission reactor, thats some really interesting stuff and the reactor is so small. This is going to enable a lot of different ideas to expand, not just with propulsion but probes and habitats too.

[@rogeraydin908]

Better be a fusion reactor in the future once they're commercial, am I right? :)