How Do Volume Spacers Affect MTB Suspension? | GMBN Does Science

[@gmbn]

How many volume spacers do you run?

[@zackaryallan2505]

0

[@sebi_palgino8875]

The recon doesn't take any🙄... I run compression damping instead

[@jdavis417]

I just added my first two and lowered the pressure 16% for a more-supple-but-still-supportive ride. I'm diggin' it! ;)

[@ka81alex]

@Harper O'Donnell softer?.. I thought the downside of adding spacers is that you're losing in softness?..

[@CyberdyneSystemsSkynet]

@@ka81alex You are, but then you can run a lower PSI so if you normally run 85PSI in a 120mm fork, you have a pretty even softness all the way through. If you add 2 spacers you reduce the unsprung air volume by 20cc so at the same pressure the first 30%ish of the ride will be the same (same air pressure at given volume) but because the volume will reduce more quickly as the spring compresses the next 80% will be harder. So then you drop the air pressure to the bottom of the range listed for your weight to get the right sag and the first 10-15% of the travel will actually be softer allowing you to soak up little bumps better, the next 60% will be the same as your normal (because less volume balances out the less pressure making the same virtual spring rate) allowing you to use most of your travel, and then theoretically the last 30% will be super stiff keeping you from bottoming out on anything but the biggest drops. But yeah, too many spacers and you basically make a dirt jump fork that can take tiny bumps and massive hits but will feel stiff everywhere inbetween.

[@JohnBS75]

Whoever directed / edited the video did a great job of filming that drop. Very dramatic and actually looked big on the screen. So essentially, shout out to the backroom staff for their top quality work

[@geoffgoldplum1231]

You forgot about the other half of the bike!

[@bentoth2494]

F/r volume spacers work the same!

[@emmanuelnocete135]

They work the same for F/R, except that it takes considerably longer to fit a spacer into a rear shock than your fork

[@jimw2542]

@@emmanuelnocete135 You should check out DVO. Takes even less time with their slap on spacers. 🎉

[@KarstRats]

@@emmanuelnocete135he kept saying this was for the feont fork to stay high in the travel so you dont feel like youre going over the bars. So with it being about the front why would he go over the back when hes a KZbinr and that could be other video concepts through out all styles of riding?

[@Milessongs]

Thanks Neil & Doddy! This is by far the most clearly illustrated explanation of just what kind of differences we can expect from changing the air volume spacers in our forks. Watching the actual resulting travel, along with Neil's comments on ride-feel, really pulled the all the concepts together. I'm a medium size, (172lbs.) not too aggressive rider and never even get close to bottoming out. I can't wait to see what my stock FOX 34 has inside!

[@ThaoNguyen-lj5sp]

Qaqs

[@peter-zs4ml]

Enjoyed the video. I think a blind test would be very interesting. There could be a bit of a bias knowing how many spacers are in the fork.

[@KarstRats]

Although that would be the case for every human being on earth these guys live on bikes so id say they can pretty well feel it better than you and i.

[@DaleBaldwin]

Have been messing around with tokens and setup on a new Fox Factory fork for a few weeks not and this video had the bit of info I needed. More tokens + less air ended up being my magic combination.

[@davestarr519]

I ended up with 3 spacers in my Fox Floats, massive improvement in performance of the fork & bike. Wish I tried it earlier. 💪😎

[@rupedog]

When I upgraded my Pike to the new air spring with big neg spring, I ended up removing all spacers (and having to run 30% sag) in order to use 95-99% travel v occasionally on my rides. A bigger neg increases sensitivity but also ramp up/progression Bonus

[@JacoblBroughton]

hey have you found the new air spring to be worth it?

[@kylehanson1213]

Totally worth it. I found the same thing as Rupert.

[@fastolsen]

That quick release on the front wheel though:( Otherwise, loved the video👍

[@russellparker4568]

Shocking

[@johnlever6696]

Quick release? Where?

[@bikevoltrides7209]

I just started playing with volume spacers. Glad I did. Less air more comfortable and no bottom outs.😁🤙🏽

[@sicmic]

This is great. Whilst I've always been aware of volume spacers and what they do (roughly), I had no idea how to install them, how many to use etc. I'm going to have a go at adding some to my bike. Thanks boys.

[@markdavies3151]

Should’ve mounted a GoPro pointing at the forks so we could watch the travel action through different sections of each run with each spacer quantity. Still a great video though guys 👍🏼 keep it up.

[@ForAFewDollarsMore9]

MRP Ramp Control Cartridge for adjustment on the fly. Can't wait to try it this season.

[@jimdrake9528]

I've got a 29'er hardtail xc bike my local bike shop put some tokens in the fork and dropped the pressure, it has made the bike so smooth .Its like a totally different bike I no longer rattle me teeth loose ,give it a go glad I did

[@elmisfit]

8:44 full travel i see mmmmmmhh...

[@TheLOMTONG]

Not sure what you're insinuating, but I would assume it's an editing mistake.

[@ka81alex]

@@TheLOMTONG use your brain and eyes. Yes, his 'mmmmmhhhh' unclear but you could find out by yourself: look closer at that moment - red sag-ring on left stanchion is at full up.

[@TheLOMTONG]

@@ka81alex Hence, the editing mistake, the editor probably cut in the shot from the run with no volume spacers instead of the one with full spacers. The only other option is that you can compress the same volume of air into a smaller area while using the same amount of force, which is physically impossible. Is that a good enough explanation or should I go on?

[@TheStryder400]

Noticed that as well - could be editing?

[@bullseye0112]

Great video guys that was really helpful because I've been looking atmy suspension with volume spacers and trying to figure out just how much it affects the ride and whether it messes with the natural supplements of the fork

[@johnreese3762]

Just what I needed, thanks!!

[@visserswp]

Completely off topic but just a thought for a gmbn video; how bout a pack for Saalbach video? I bet there are a lot of guys/gals going there who just like me will go on their first mtb holiday. What should you bring to an alpine location like Saalbach? What stuff don’t you need to bring because local shops will have it in stock? Idk think it would be very enlightening to have a vid like that

[@MaxMustermannnnnn]

I have a Fox 36 Performance. Stock I used 2 tokens and needed full travel. After I made the Grip2 upgrade I only need 1 token for full travel.

[@danieljames4584]

Dont be afraid to not use all your travel, a good suspension setup for you does not need to bottom out or even use all the available travel , to be a well set up fork/suspension, remember its not compulsory to use all the suspension travel.

[@PhillipChenJay]

Why can I see your red o-ring basically touching the crown at 8:45 when you have 4 tokens in? Just mixing up video from multiple runs?

[@kano3522]

They won’t film each run top to bottom, from trackside, they’ll chuck in little clips from bits from sections they do just for the video. Otherwise they would need camera men all the way down the track.

[@rvoykin]

Really useful info never thought about these but I like a firmer feel growing up on a BMX bike this might help! That trail looks sick!

[@rupedog]

using 95-99% of max travel maybe once of twice on ur usual trails is a good guide

[@marcusoutdoors4999]

Superb instructional video

[@lwittrock1]

Excellent video lads!

[@DrtSqrt]

140 lb rider. Not super aggressive. Fox 36 Float Performance Elite, 150mm, FIT4 which I think comes stock with two tokens unless that differs on women specific bikes. I've never used all of the travel, but don't like how mushy it feels with low enough pressure to do so. So if I want more small bump sensitivity for our rooty trails, but want more pop in the mid stroke for small drops and bunny hops, I should add some tokens and lower the PSI?

[@DrtSqrt]

Still hoping someone can answer this. Fork didn't come with any volume spacers.

[@ThePlantPoweredPantry]

@@DrtSqrt try adding 1 token and lowering pressure 10psi.

[@DrtSqrt]

@@ThePlantPoweredPantry The women’s tune apparently meant zero tokens. I added two tokens, lowered the psi and the bike is dialled now!

[@jonnysnakes5417]

Depending on what im planning on riding ile change my setup. Like in my local run 2 spacers but if i go to somewhere thats just big jumps n drops ile go 3 or more then if im riding somewhere really rocky ile go down to 1 just to save my hands a bit.

[@filipkryspin8726]

Hey Neil, great video. I think I will try this trial and error runs myself. Also running 2 tokens now. btw. do yusulally run your maxle lever in the fork pointing forward? :)

[@gunny6517]

Should have done this as a “BLIND” test.. Wonder how the results would have possibly changed???? Thanks for the video…. 🇺🇸

[@CarloDimacali]

Is the MRP Ramp control a good alternative to traditional volume spacers?

[@andersbrandt7131]

You go so fast!!! 😱😱👍🏻

[@rhysprice8787]

My man changed track 6:22 😂he went from sheepskull to ski run

[@chaosandcarnage1]

Always great info

[@tontongarcia8063]

very informative! thanks!

[@Mr.ZiggedWhenHeShouldaZagged]

You guys should sell bike specific tools with GMBN logo on them such as non-chamfered socket set, the park tool and fox ones are expensive and usually special order most places

[@bearjewmtb4827]

So when riding downhill nothing on my body gets sore but halfway through the day the vibration through my hands starts to kill and makes it almost impossible to grip the bars. Any suggestion on how to reduce this?

[@impatience4450]

For me having some larger grips helped a bit, but can’t guarantee any science on it 😂

[@rupedog]

Be interesting to see u do with a quarq shockwiz and see what that says...

[@davidgreensmith4217]

I always thought that another user for adding a token would be to run slightly lower pressure for small bump sensitivity?

[@ghsteen]

they talked about this in the video

[@yohanyonsson]

Isn't the point to add more volume spacers that you can run a lower pressure with the same sag % and therefore get better small bump sensitivity?

[@burnanxtr]

Great video. Are there any rules of thumb for adding volume spacers and adjusting rebound/compression?

[@bugrist]

Great doc! But next time please turn on hypersmooth on that Gopro.

[@rupedog]

Lol...yeh thought that. May be he us going so hard, he overcame it's capability!

[@harrygilbert3738]

Jesus, you’re quick, Neil!

[@CRGT666]

How would you use it on chuncky terrain with no big hits?

[@Danil-Crypto]

Why is the camera so cracked? poorly fixed?

[@prescottdirtmerchant7996]

Shouldn't you also consider matching the fork with the rear suspension when tuning for a balanced ride? It's also been said bottoming once or twice on a hard ride indicates a good tune

[@joedenneymtb4849]

Quality video 🙌🏻

[@petcheverry64]

wtf minute 8:45 you have the suspension full bottomed out, but then you used less travel?

[@dunin.majewski]

great video well explained, but I have a question; when I put a token into the fork, should I put less air pressure to have exactly the same sag as before?

[@gmbn]

You'll have ever so slightly less sag than before, but effectively the token doesn't affect the initial stroke, it just makes it harder to bottom out. So yes use the same air pressure as before :)

[@Pienimusta]

More linear or more progressive rear - Any preferences?

[@Freeezzzzzzz]

Really cool video. I enjoy GMBN stuff a lot and, except of fun, it brings from time to time great ideas for me and my bike. I would very happy to know what type of shrink tubing are you using to take all the cockpit cables together on the first bike in video- blue canyon. I want to make my cockpit a little prettier, so I search shrink tubing that I can use for it. Or maybe it not a shrink tube at all? Because I think normal shrink tube will tear at point where cables split to shifter/dropper/etc. after some weeks of usage. I would be very thankful if someone can make it clear for me.

[@mrvwbug4423]

Currently running zero spacers, but am considering adding 1 or two and dropping the pressure in the fork slightly, my front end is pretty chattery on faster stuff, the motion control damper doesn't help (fork is RS 35 Gold).

[@IcemanF14]

Your rebound is too high.

[@lundinulrika]

Replacing cassette and tools needed?

[@liamfield7624]

1:06 haha and also great video i guys i run fox 34 with 3 volume spacer and 63 psi i am really light i know

[@dominikhess5664]

I run 3 tokens and 85 psi on my rockshox pike :p

[@s14tat]

Almost the same for me. Even down to the psi. I am running 80psi, love how high I ride in the travel and still feel soft on the big hits

[@andreioancea416]

So if I have tokens I will not bottom my fork anymore ar will it just bottom out more rarely?

[@Cmason-sg7eq]

do the same test with the rear shock insread

[@CyberdyneSystemsSkynet]

So, what about spacers getting stuck/being hard to fit? I have an OEM Fox 32 Rhythm Float and I checked the topcap and it had the attachment so I put 2 blue spacers in it, when I went to put the spacers in they were a little firm to put in, so I pushed a little, then they popped in, and it took me a full year to devise a way to get them out without wrecking anything, they just seem like they're too big, but everything (bike and spacers) was purchased from an authorized vendor, no grey market. Happen to anyone else? Take an X-acto blade and chamfer the corners? They seem like a very hard composite compound. But the feeling is fine with the spacers, I see no need to upgrade to a more expensive fork if I can just get these to install/remove reliably.

[@rupedog]

There are different ones, u likely had wrong ones for ur model year of fork

[@dijaco2923]

Great explanation, thank you! I still don't understand one thing though. If more spacers mean that I effectively only use 140 of my 170 mm travel (e.g.), than what's the point in having those 170 mm? Should the roughest drop I ever do not get me at leat close to a bottom out (with a little bit of reserve)?

[@InFlamesrockz]

you don't change the available travel. Only the way the fork behaves.

[@manuelcobian2355]

Hi to close it's 25Nm? Thanks I'm from San Diego California

[@edmundpohpiah6923]

Wait so does adding more volume spacers give more small bump sensitivity?

[@gmbn]

More spacers mean the fork ramps up more through its travel, making maximum travel (bottoming out) harder to achieve. So with more spacers you can drop the pressure slightly (better small bump sensitivity) without blowing through all of your travel on big hits 👍

[@edmundpohpiah6923]

@@gmbn noice thanks for the info

[@paulwarsaw]

You convinced me! Thx

[@zottell2560]

I wanted to use a bigger volume spacer to my Fox dpx2 damper, but after i bought them, i figured out, that the max height is 0.4, exactly what is already in my damper :(

[@dawidos557]

do spacers make your travel less? because piston can bottom out to spacer (or I'm wrong)

[@tomihenrik4387]

Yes youre wrong

[@m1chaelsc]

They don’t limit travel

[@ЛёхаБукреев]

Look like some unfair in tests... Second run with 4 tokens. On 8:44 time on video on a pause we can see red SAG O-ring is over the "Debonair" sign. But few seconds later 8:51 - it is 20mm lower than it was on the run...

[@jayblackll]

I'd love to see your real world results compared to results from a tool like shockwiz. I know a lot of people who rely entirely on shockwiz to do the tuning of their suspension.

[@rupedog]

Great tool...far too expensive. Keep thinking should hire one...

[@braddyboy83]

What i don't understand is what's the point having a big travel bike and then adding tokens to not use all the travel?

[@j.s.1967]

So my question is.. i am a havier rider and always have psi on the limits, can the the spacers help me?

[@Pienimusta]

To certain limit yes. Probably better go to proper suspension workshop.

[@brokenlegz]

If you’re bottoming out, I’d say yes.

[@rupedog]

Probably...need to check max.spacer allowed in ur fork, in case already at max

[@MrJohnnyS4416]

Where was this filmed ?

[@mtb-jason4095]

Looked like the Forest of Dean

[@davidsuzukiispolpot]

You came up with a different formula (3 spacers and lower pressure) but then did not complete the test with the new setup? Why?

[@talshark1]

I’m heavy 235 lbs and when I hit steep switch backs it feels like I’m going OTB, have a Rock shock Yary very High psi, should I put some volume spacers???

[@toine.overbeek]

maybe check that the rebound of your rear shock isn't too fast, throwing you forward

[@ejhayes76]

IMHO, yes you most likely want to add one or more spacers.

[@jonanderson1777]

I'm also 235. I need to run the rear shock at the slowest return possible to get the same feel as an average weight rider with a rebound set in the middle.

[@scotty-sb1403]

Hi Iv got a yeti and the recommended sag is 18mm in the dpx2. Shock..however to achieve this it says il need 261 psi but the shock will only take 250 psi max..so I’m using all my travel all the time. Could you explain what I need to do to resolve this please

[@caseys_cozy_garage]

My question is .. why no just run a fork with just less travel if you only want to use like 150mm or your 170? Am I missing the benefit?

[@IamJonsCranium]

Everyone wants to add spacers and here i am thinking about the opposite - removing the spacers and increasing air pressure.

[@AmogusSusAmongusSussyBakaAmogg]

does it minimize the travel on your fork when you put these in?

[@pcguy76559]

no

[@Robs.channel]

At what point do u actually switch to full face, this looked quite sketchy, lots of tree stumps that would make quick work of that tiny helmet

[@ltrtg13]

When Neil said he had 2 volume spacers in his fork because he says he's "well 'ard". Was the noise I heard the camera operator trying not to laugh?

[@gmbn]

Probably! 😂

[@j8lech]

This would be really nice test with a gimbal.

[@johnpascua8892]

Do you guys have a used parts that your guys not using it, can I have it because I'm upgrading my cheap ccm mountain bike

[@hawgietonight]

Nice to know this is a thing. I still rock a coil sprung sektor on my steel 456 evo2 haha.. hehe.. he.. I feel old :(

[@ferranization]

The front wheel axle lock is bad posicioned!!! Please put it backwards

[@j.albertogratacos2076]

I added a 4th (of 6 max on Fox32) volume spacer and using the same sag and pressure, I'm yet to see full travel even on my hardest rides. Am I missing out on the last 10mm of travel?

[@javicc2]

That’s the magic of the tokens, now you can lower a lil psi and get a better feel

[@vlbz]

I am running the same tyre all year :(

[@petite_beat83]

If you add tokens you can now open the slow speed compression, this way you keep comfort and the tokkens will provide support for big shocks. Let me know if I'm correct or not!

[@ethanroyer1049]

Are flat pedal shoes necessary I use cheap Nike runners is investing in a good pair of shoes a smart decision

[@noname-sd5dt]

I now have proper shoes because protection and functionality but rode in vans for years. get some good pedals nukeproof neutrons or deity composite are good and cheap!

[@jnygaarddk]

How does rider weight play into this?? I'd thing a heavy rider (like me) would benefit more from the tokens???

[@rupedog]

Could be, but not necessarily. Set u sag 25% properly, then go from there. If u bottom out or need more support, and a token. If ur not using most of ur travel once orr twice on ur usual trails, then remove spacer. Setting sag right first is key

[@madbiker1455]

5 tokens on a Fox Factory 36 with 100 PSI

[@WoSeeman]

Why is everyone so keen on small bumb sensitivity? Around 15% Sag is enough for me. And only if I bottom out I add some spacers. With higher pressure, the fork has more mid stroke support and stays higher in its travel! Something you will never achive by adding spacers.

[@rupedog]

Yes u can improve mid support with spacers to a degree...its part of benefit. Neil even commented on less dive with more tokens, (less weight forward he said).

[@rupedog]

Small bump sensitivity is what gives u grip! Allows wheel to track ground better. 15% sag if ur on fire roads would be ok, but off road u will gain grip with more sag

[@WoSeeman]

@@rupedog Volume spacers are effecting the end of the travel predominantly. That's why it helps at bottoming out. But I guess a lot of the complaints for missing mid stroke support come because people a running too many spacers and then setting the presure too low to counter the harshness. For me, weighting the fork in the downhill is where I need the most performance!

[@WoSeeman]

@@rupedog Small bump sensitivity created by a lot of sag is maybe important on flat corners. But when you weight the fork things are different. And anyway, I think the damping is most important in terms of sensitivity of the fork.

[@marekserafin7995]

This are my thoughts also. When you go a steep hill and pressure is to low you don't have even the travel. Middle stroke suport is lacking and tokens don't change nothing about that. Another story is in flow trails.

[@markcrazy9999]

That looks fast which means it's really really fast. 😂 Because GoPro video always looks slow

[@neildaniel8232]

Even if I played back my fastest run on that top track back at 2x speed I'd be slower than you! Still manage to use most of my travel though...

[@jimmycull4030]

That blokes hair is Fascinating!! 😂

[@felderosa]

if you change spacers and keep pressure the same, you will have different sag numbers!

[@beshock3654]

Nice dudes

[@PatrickJeon-os5vg]

It went together easily in less than an hour. kzbin.infoUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L Make sure the front fork is forward or the pedals will hit the front tire. Tires are both a little soft so it needs air before I ride it. The rear wheel didn't come with a clamp regular bolts hold it on. The front had the clamp. No scratches out of box. Rims are a little off with a slight wobble. They could have spent more time with the spoke tool fixing the run out. So far out of the box I'm happy with it. I did replace the pedals with a nice aftermarket set. After riding it a bit my A$$ is a bit sore so I ordered another seat. Overall I'm nearly 60 and didn't ride a bike in 30 years. I like my new 29" Schwinn. It will be used for casual rides with my friend.

[@MTBKarl]

It looks like you're using either a Hero 7 or 8 Black, so it should have Hypersmooth. Might I request that you turn that on and also tighten the Chesty strap? The POV footage in this and some other videos is a bit nauseating...Cheers!

[@hedemalmcarl]

with ”too many” volume spacers you can have more sag without bottoming out

[@barbbrazes869]

Does it affect climbing.

[@sundown6436]

But seriously this is so closely connected to rider weight and geometry as things can be! why are the producers so slacky with their data?

[@rafaelgodoy3703]

0:13

[@ivosekzaplet8610]

2 tokens

[@jsistudios961]

Less go

[@Dewoy1]

Do the spacers just go in in one side? And wasn´t there a liquid that you may or may not have to fill in? Or what it jsut wet from the water.

[@JimnyRicardo]

They have to be used in the air chamber...the air chamber usually just has a few ml of oil or grease in it, unlike the other side which is for dampening and is full of oil

[@Dewoy1]

@@JimnyRicardo Ok, thanks.