How Dream Chaser Tenacity Is Trying To Reinvent The Heat Shield

[@SierraSpace]

Thank you for highlighting our Dream Chaser spaceplane and the work being done by our team!

[@4077Disc]

Good luck Sierra! I am rooting for y’all. When I am done the development cycle for 3MDCP ( a near-net cousin to PICA) y’all will probably see my application for a technician job. :)

[@13deadghosts]

Good luck and fly safe :)

[@calebfox3108]

One of the coolest looking vehicles in development right now!

[@4077Disc]

I make PICA (phenolic impregnated carbon ablator) for my job. There are a lot of comments down here that are along the lines of: 1) Why don’t they make a single big heat shield instead of tiles? And 2) If they made simple shaped tiles instead of ones with all this complex geometry, wouldn’t it be better. Manufacturing heat shield material, including TUFROC, requires a perfectly uniform pre-form material that is then infused with a fluid in a pressure vessel. This, 1) The pressure vessel limits the maximum size that a single heat shield piece can be and 2) the preforms need to be made in non-curved (aka rectangular) forms so they will need to machined to shape no matter what as sharp angles are a death sentence in the world of spacecraft heat shields. Have a great day, everyone!

[@classic_sci_fi]

A major issue with the Space Shuttle was having over 2,000 different shapes for the tiles. Dream Chaser appears to have a lot of unique tiles. Starship -- if the tiles stay on -- does not look to have so many unique tiles -- on and around control surfaces and on the nose cone, but the rest are pretty standard. Maybe the turnaround time for replacement tiles isn't a problem, but I don't see how.

[@GlennTillema]

Starship also uses a steel body, isn't Dream Chaser aluminum? One space shuttle was lost because a tile came off and the underlaying aluminum body was quickly burned through.

[@drutalero2962]

​@@GlennTillemait was more than "a" tile bro

[@tusse67]

@@GlennTillema Columbia was lost due to a suitcase sized hole in the reinforced carbon-carbon at the front of left wing. Atlantis, on Sts-27 (second flight after Challenger) lost an entire tile. Luckily there was steel underneath, otherwise that might have been lost as well.

[@mikedicenso2778]

@@tusse67 the steel antenna mount on Atlantis was at least 27 times thicker than the average Starship Super Heavy propellant tank skin. The tiles seen being lost by the dozens on IFT-2 could well have been enough to doom the ship, if it had survived to reach reentry, and steel then soften up and lose integrity from the heat.

[@tusse67]

@@mikedicenso2778 I agree… you should direct your reply towards Glenn Tillema… He’s the one indirectly implying the steel of starship would fare better. If by some miracle, it should survive reentry with missing tiles, it would be scrap. Edit: interesting point on starships survivability with missing tiles: Due to its size and shape the stagnation point will be further away from the hull. But still detrimental to reusing it if it survives.

[@slaphappyduplenty2436]

This highlights the brilliance of Spacex’s decision to keep Starship to a simple and symmetrical geometry, so mass produced identical tiles can be used to cover most of the surface.

[@sammadison1172]

It also highlights their dedication to manufacturing expediency. Most space companies still do it the old way. Everything is carefully crafted by hand in a lab-like setting, where no part of the process can be easily replicated for assembly speed the second time. They don't care while they have funding to pay for it, but the long term program is at much higher risk when you can't reproduce units quickly and affordably.

[@JohnFrumFromAmerica]

It's not clear how it's going to work out yet

[@4077Disc]

Yea, I’m not sure that complimenting an entirely unproven system is the best idea, but I do hope SpaceX can help move TPS technology forward

[@oldgreenknees1205]

How about we count that chicken when it orbits.

[@StillAliveAndKicking_]

This is a nice clear video, perhaps a bit too much repetition. It looks good, but I guess we will find out how good the TPS tiles are. The space shuttle required huge expense in money and time to refit its heat shield after every flight. At least this one won’t have to deal with huge lumps of falling ice before and during launch.

[@MykePagan]

Installing the tiles took… YEARS? To quote Han Solo: “I’ve got a bad feeling about this.”

[@4077Disc]

It probably only took a few days to install the heat shield. What took years was the approvals from the quality, legal, and financial departments. Working in aerospace is “great”!

[@sammadison1172]

@@4077Disc Nah, the 'manufacturing' in aerospace is just as bad. (outside of Spacex) Every person is at least a 300k scientist and placing a tile with glue requires conducting a lab experiment with 500 verifications. It's way too meticulous and not repeatable.

[@4077Disc]

@sammadison1172 my personal experience working in aerospace for years now is not at all like you are describing, but if that’s your personal experience, my company is hiring, lol

[@Ionee-q4f]

its been years for starship as well, heatshields are just hard tech

[@Wrangler-fp4ei]

Has been explained aside from the custom corners that need percision, why aren't they making bigger section of heat shields? Like slipper going on a foot in some case.

[@MichaelWinter-ss6lx]

My guesse: heat tiles shouldn't be too large, because ceramic breaks relatively easy. Plus the metall underneath does some wild contraction and expansion, compared to most other materials. 🚀🏴‍☠️🎸

[@RogerM88]

The heat shielding advantage with Dream Chaser, it's that the TPS tiles are fixed to the fuselage, instead of directly on the tanks as Starship. Where they are subjected to intense pressure and thermal variations, requiring fixing pins.

[@pipersall6761]

Correct me if i am wrong but i think most of Starships tiles are mounted over some kind of insulative jacket, and with the pins as you say, although at the top of the ship those tiles may be just glued on.

[@Mentaculus42]

⁠​⁠@@pipersall6761 I have been assuming that the starship tiles that are over “blanket” material still use capture pins that penetrate the blanket. The blanket is partially there to provide “vibrational damping” because the stainless steel structure is too flexible due to its inherent thinness and lack of flexural rigidity also it can expand (causing problems) due to it being heated more than other designs promoting plasma intrusion through gaps. Does your information have more details on spacex’s mounting system?

[@pipersall6761]

@@Mentaculus42 yes you are right. However, I have seen video of them installing tile around the top of the ship and it didnt look like the blanket was there and Im not sure pins were either though they are everywhere else. Like maybe those were glued on somehow. I really dont know about that.

[@Mentaculus42]

@@pipersall6761 Thank you, what you say makes sense. I think that the starship approach is going to take a number of iterations to perfect.

[@gedw99]

@@pipersall6761 they use glue along the structural weld seams, this is where some fell off. Everywhere else they use pins. I expect they will move to pins everywhere eventually. They just did not have time so far to figure that part out.

[@Randelia]

thx for another great update

[@Gargamel-n-Rudmilla]

The heatshield is a nightmare, even more complex than the Shuttle. The refit will simply kill how frequent the ship can fly.

[@madezra64]

True, but Sierra Space is technically right too. We have learned a lot from the Space Shuttle program heat shield and our material science has stepped up since. Another thing to consider is that there are far less tiles to be concerned about here. The shuttle had 10s of thousands of tiles, Dream Chase does not. They're also twice as thick with an updated method of application and bonding. It's very likely Tenacity's heatshield won't kill its practical usefulness unlike the Shuttle. Could totally be wrong though and it be another nightmare, but with far less tiles to track, more size and improved materials, along with improved bonding and decades of Shuttle experience Dream Chase should be a success.

[@Kangaroo_Caught]

The issue I see with the unique tiles is that, as with the shuttle, there is no provision for in orbit repair in the event of damage being detected prior to reentry.

[@wayne-oo]

The USAF has the X-37 that outperforms this vehicle in every way ….

[@johnrday2023]

At least the Boeing X-37B has been successfully launched and 'flown' & landed (at least) 6 times, and stayed aloft over 12 months! The Dream Chaser has much promise, but is yet to fly 'once'! It has had a lot of PR and hype, but let's face it, it has a long way to go before is certified for crew.

[@JohnFrumFromAmerica]

X37 is not able to carry humans

[@johnrday2023]

@@JohnFrumFromAmerica Dream Chaser hasn't launched yet and is not certified for crew! (Just like X-37B)

[@PacoOtis]

Each time he mentions "TPS" I think of the "Office Space" reporting system! LOL

[@clarencehopkins7832]

Excellent stuff bro

[@leschortos9196]

Hopefully someone develops some sort of spray on foam, thermo protection system. This tile idea gives me the creeps. On both this one and starship, it may end up being its Achilles heal...they seem to have improved most aspects of spacecraft except the infamous crappy heat tiles.

[@doxielain2231]

Foam doesn't have a good history in spaceflight.

[@joansparky4439]

those ceramic tiles are pretty much ceramic foam.. but due to the basis being ceramic they are brittle, which requires compact pieces to stay intact and also some delicate mounting interface to keep them in position. Spray on foam (that can withstand the temperatures) that isn't made from ceramic is not on the cards (yet) and might still be brittle and require compartmentalization to stay in position and not break off in chunks.

[@ninersix2790]

And when is that supposed to happen; in 20 Years after mabey spending a Billion dollars? No thanks.

[@mathewferstl7042]

Material scientist over here with his brilliant insight clearly

[@4077Disc]

This idea isn’t as crazy as the replies make it seem. My company, that makes TPS systems for spacecraft and missiles is in fact working on an extremely high temp spray-on system. Not really designed for spacecraft heat shields at this time, but it certainly could be one day

[@Starbelt]

I love Reebok's new cross-trainer.

[@tobyihli9470]

I would suppose that once a part has gone back and forth until fitted properly, that the corrected tile shape data is recorded, therefore it can be produce from memory. That’ll speed it up considerably.

[@4077Disc]

CAD and six-axis CNC’s probably eliminated the need for multiple iterations for fitment

[@rockets4kids]

In the thumbnail shot it looks like a giant tennis shoe.

[@darksars3622]

This is basically a space shuttle lite

[@selectthedead]

Thank you for this Well presentwf Update!

[@tonyug113]

Wonder what Sierra and spacex have learned from the X-37B (i guess the dreamchaser closer in size) -- TUFROCs a nasa thing i think.

[@mho...]

every time i see this thing, i cant help but think of the Geth & their "windows are structural weaknesses" saying

[@lenger1234]

Its significantly smaller than the space shuttle. Why couldn't they use a preformed ablative heatshield and just replace it each time.

[@SaltyVet74]

I finally understand why the TPS reports are so important...

[@odess4sd4d]

Um, yeah. Did you get the memo?

[@catsupchutney]

As a boat owner who did a lot of my own work, I'd guess that finishing work extra soon just allows more time for you to accidentally damage something while navigating around things, so if other steps are taking longer, there is a disincentive to finish delicate pieces earlier than necessary. That's just my guess though.

[@wayne-oo]

That vehicle looks a lot like the one Steve Austin flew before his ground breaking operation !!!

[@davidgifford8112]

lol, that’s because it is. Dream Chaser is almost an exact copy from NASAs 1960s atmospheric lifting body programme. They have built a vehicle with some complex surfaces, any surprise the heat shield tiles turn out to be complex and slow to attach. A simple cylinder topped with a uniform cone on top, looks like a better option.

[@tobyihli9470]

I’m a fan of Dream Chaser, for real. Put it on top of a SpaceX rocket and I’m a happy camper!

[@A3Kr0n]

I've got my money on the Moller Skycar.

[@honketyhonk1364]

Tenacity - the flying space shoe.

[@dylanm.3692]

I just have to say, the thumbnail made me realize that Dream Chaser looks like a flying shoe.

[@ninersix2790]

And just about as much use!

[@pipersall6761]

Three years to install the heat tiles. Surely it will get faster in future iterations. An amazing ship and i cant wait for it to fly!

[@shanent5793]

A Shuttle tile took forty hours to install, this doesn't seem much faster. Why does it take so long, does the technician just sit around while waiting for the glue to dry?

[@ninersix2790]

Good point!

[@biggseye]

I look Forward to the launch of Dream chaser.

[@i-love-space390]

I wish someone would attempt to reproduce the metal heat shield of DynaSoar. It seems like a metal heat shield would be the ultimate design for durability.

[@GreyDeathVaccine]

Weight has always been a problem for rockets and spacecrafts.

[@dissaid]

Just checking in...

[@optimusprime5166]

I thought the thumbnail was a big robot shoe.

[@WhiskeyAfterHours]

lots of uninformed people in the comments who dont see or understand the next age of space and why a space plane that can land on any airstrip in the world is important.

[@DH-sw6vg]

No spaces between the tiles? Have they found a way to ignore the physics of *_THERMAL EXPANSION???_*

[@4077Disc]

TPS material, especially TUFROC, has EXTREMELY low CTE, that’s one of the primary parameters when choosing a TPS material. PICA can heat up to 3000C with less than 2% expansion.

[@framegrace1]

Yeah, milions spent developing a material and no none thought about that.... losers.

[@esecallum]

Simply generate plasma which will shield it

[@matthodel946]

From a layman's perspective not understanding the dynamics of rocket technology, I feel like the Dreamchaser is very design-specific, almost too specific and it's taken too long to make it to the boxing ring. While it looks like an innovative product, I'm not sure where it stands in the wake of the Starship's capabilities advancing so quickly. I suspect that buckets of money were dumped into this space plane and they don't have an exit plan if it doesn't get traction. I would like to see Lockheed succeed, it employs many bright minds.

[@MykePagan]

People love Dreamchaser because it looks coole, but it has very limited use cases. In 99.9% of space missions, aDragon capsule does the job better.

[@rdcepcvip]

@@MykePagan Dream chaser is the vehicle for the next generation of LEO commercialization. A space plane landing on airstrips is much more preferred by companies as well as safer.

[@sk3143]

I think something was learned from X35

[@DouglasLippi]

Man oh man good luck to the first crew... I mean that literally and sincerely. I hope they will all be OK.

[@garreth629]

This one will not have crew. This version will be cargo only. There will be a version with crew, but that one is still probably a few years away. Nor will it be identical.

[@SpaceRanger187]

Aliens don't have heat shields

[@dad_jokes_4ever226]

Is this a new Nike shoe ?

[@MakeMySanctuary]

Thanks for the TPS report, did you remember a cover letter?

[@justas7463]

Oh man the Dream Chaser is truly trying to do a lot of things... Trying... But just not doing anything... It's like it's having a mid-flight crisis... After that shitty-ass flight of it that is...

[@MykePagan]

Everybody (including SpaceX) trashes NASA for the design oftheTPS heat tiles on the Space Shuttle. And then they proceed to use exactly the same design.

[@rpereira_pt_uk]

If they lose this vehicle they will go bankrupt before they finish the next one...

[@rpierce7004]

Good luck

[@ninersix2790]

This is so much bull or hype! First of all this "WET DREAM CHASER" is an auxiliary transport vehicle at BEST! They can only make one every 4-6 years. NOT what I would call exactly a done deal or a finished product. Heat Shield ... What! The Space Shuttle had that worked out over 20 years ago, so what is the deal here?

[@davidgifford8112]

A 1960s lifting body concept with 1970s thermal tiles, what could possibly go wrong.

[@StillAliveAndKicking_]

It cost a fortune to refit the space shuttle TPS tiles after every flight. They were in many respects a failure.

[@markmaz56]

They are trying to improve the heat shield, NOT reinventing it! 🤦🏻‍♂

[@maragossep3492]

Isn't that shoe a tad too big for humans?

[@indioloco6600]

Keen

[@esecallum]

simply blow cold gas from vents at the front

[@copingsin1]

Looks like a shoe

[@willadeefriesland5107]

Look out Elon, here comes a REAL spacecraft...

[@ninersix2790]

Too bad it can only carry small rats!