How Estonia Became a Model for Digital Democracy | Exponentially with Azeem Azhar

[@AzeemExponentially]

I’ve been fascinated by Estonia’s post-independence journey since my first visit 20 years ago. What are your takeaways from my chat with PM Kallas?

[@arielle3337774]

This was fantastic - a super-engaging and insightful interview - thank you! My key takeaways were: The PM’s strategic approach to AI - looking to a considered balance between risk and opportunity and avoiding premature regulation that could smother innovation. Her urging organisations to collaborate on cybersecurity - great observation on how firms/companies have much more to gain through fostering a culture of openness and cooperation than by concealing or playing down cyberattacks to manage public perceptions. (Understood that organisations may be reluctant to do this - perhaps a practical approach to foster cooperation might be to have an anonymised reporting system). Looking forward to the next episode.

[@blainewishart]

a digital nomad visa in europe is pretty attractive.

[@luisherrno]

Great interview, simple and clear. First time ever I heard a high political leader talk about digital transformation is such a practical, clear and concise way, using her own experience and practical examples.

[@Oliver7350]

If only you knew how the majority of Estonians actually hate this prime minister. You've heard about the Russian shipping scandal she did with her husband

[@CausticLemons7]

Estonia is an inspirational nation, always punching above their weight.

[@yomajo]

Lithuanian here. Im really proud to have a neighbor like this. Go Estonia!

[@concretejungle9608]

I fell in love with Lithuania when I discovered it for the first time and yes you guys are lucky to have such neighbors as Estonia and Latvia . Latvia’s only problem is too many Russians which didn’t get a note 30+ years ago that occupation is over and forgot to leave .

[@Oliver7350]

If only you knew how the majority of Estonians actually hate this prime minister. You've heard about the Russian shipping scandal she did with her husband

[@mic9check]

Never thought I would hear a prime minister say "it's all abouth customer experience". She sounds like CTO and it's quite refreshing.

[@EvgenyShadchnev]

I've been reading the newsletter for many years, great to see Azeem's work on Bloomberg too :)

[@powrnjustice]

A lot to learn and emulate from, especially for those from former Soviet Republics and especially in the context of certain Russian politicians openly questioning the legality of the independence of these republics. 👏👏👏 Love & Respect to Estonia 🇪🇪 from Uzbekistan 🇺🇿

[@praxis22]

The PM is impressively clear headed about tech, interesting viewing. Some of the stuff I read early in Russian invasion of Ukraine was from people in the Estonian intelligence community with long memories or Russian occupation & motives, etc.

[@kailacolbin7474]

Amazing! Kaja Kallas is such an inspirational leader. Fantastic episode!

[@richardfallon1011]

Wow! What a great interview. I had no idea how technologically advanced Estonia is. All leaders (govt and private co) should take note

[@alexd9656]

she is so smart and articulate!

[@carlosleyson6622]

Great conversation and topic! I´ve always been intrigued and amazed by Estonia´s case and how they´ve been able to go forward compared to their neighbors that were also occupied by the Soviet Union.

[@chrismccormack78]

Engaging and fascinating interview, great to get a glimpse of the future from Estonia!

[@atalanteitzicsohn]

Great show. Looking forward to following Azeem's inspiring and paradigm shifting conversations.

[@giannigiacomelli]

Really valuable perspective on the art of the possible for countries, but also for other types of organizations. Many companies have numbers of stakeholders (employees, clients) that outnumber Estonia, so the learnings from Estonia can be ported outside of the government space too.

[@GregBufithis]

I have been a long-time subscriber to Azeem's newsletter, and thoroughly enjoyed his book on our exponential technological revolutions, impressively explaining the intricate relationships between technology and economics. Speaking as a fellow film/video producer I think this new video series is smartly produced, a perfect/logical expansion of Azeem’s book and newsletter. And Estonia hit a chord because I have long held an Estonian e-⁠Residency Digital ID. Looking forward to the continuing series.

[@larshyland3822]

Great interview Azeem - approachable, informative and thought provoking. Kaja Kallas comes across extremely well. Puts the soap opera politicians in the UK/US to shame. Looking forward to the rest of the series.

[@beakesland]

Great interview, makes me want to visit Estonia!

[@ambition112]

0:53: 🌐 Estonia's digital transformation and success can serve as inspiration for large democracies. 4:26: 🇪🇪 Estonia's political elite in the 1920s were killed or died in captivity during the occupation, but the country has managed to avoid ethnic conflagration between different groups, even during Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. 7:23: 💻 Estonia discusses the importance of sharing information and building resilience to combat cyber attacks. 11:54: 🇪🇪 Estonia's success in startups and innovation is attributed to factors such as rebuilding the economy, focusing on STEM education, and establishing a rule of law. 14:36: 💻 Estonia's digital revolution, focus on STEM education, and government leadership in introducing digital identities have allowed the country to become a small nation with global influence. 18:10: 📊 The government is focusing on personalized services and using AI to reduce administrative burden while balancing innovation and addressing risks. 21:35: 📚 The speaker reflects on the importance of testing, cooperation, and seeing both risks and opportunities in digital advancements. Recap by Tammy AI

[@zahidbashir1603]

Great start, looking forward to following all the talks.

[@Fatima_316]

This was a really intelligent conversation, you guys touched on some excellent topics that are typically not talked about in such interviews and discussions. I look forward to seeing more episodes of Exponentially 😄

[@a1xon]

Estonia had a better digital Infrastructure 20 years ago than Germany has today.

[@U_H89]

That is/was not too difficult to be honest... 😉 German Government decided to stay with copper cables in 1990 🤷.

[@a1xon]

@@U_H89 Technology Fear is >9000 in Germany. And now we are paying the price for that.

[@quinnemmettTV]

Incredible, valuable perspective from Azeem, as always. Really excited for the rest of this series.

[@franganr.e.searthra-macleo9214]

Estonia 🇪🇪, an independent country, member of the EU 🇪🇺 and member of NATO, with far less natural resources than Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿, far less revenues than Scotland, with a much smaller population than Scotland, with a smaller land area and maritime area than Scotland, managed to build itself from scratch. What an inspiration for freedom lovers ✌️

[@d.r6145]

Unabhängig? Von wem? Mit welchem Geld hat sie es aufgebaut? Mit unseren Steuern aus EU! Auch aus meiner Tasche...

[@jaimedemora7986]

Very insightful and inspiring.

[@lucianorolon730]

Very useful conversation

[@lucataroni-f3z]

Intriguing and truly inspiring. As an Italian I wonder whether the cultural assets that distinguish Northern European countries, which proved so valuable in the case of Estonia, might sadly work the other way around in countries like Italy, where innovation, meritocracy and efficiency still struggle to be make their way in the public discourse.

[@MarconiPereira]

Other nations can certainly learn from Estonia's approach. Great video, Bloomberg Originals! 👏 #DigitalDemocracy #EstoniaTech"

[@WinningGrandSlamswithSSBT]

This was great Stephen. AND so was Estonia's PM...she didn't even sound like a politician. Refreshing. Candour. For the people

[@arindamkumar7725]

I like her. She seems like a very good leader and she is also very fluent in English. I like that in a national leader.

[@AmitKhutti]

Interesting point about having to build a new market economy and how that helped the country go digital or leapfrog other countries.

[@StephenMeyer-m1m]

Amazing episode. PM Kaja Kallas is so inspirational. Shows how critical perspective, leadership and courage is. And the great opportunity a reset presents. Have been long a fan of Estonia's digital leadership but was less aware of the broader context. Kudos!

[@joshbushueff6424]

Fantastic! Really looking forward to the rest of the series!

[@a-novel3648]

Would love to see a long-format discussion between Estonian Prime Minister Kaja Kallas and renowned intellectual podcaster Lex Fridman, focusing on how governments can strengthen democracy, legitimacy, and resilience by embracing technology, such as AI, blockchain, and e-citizenship... @LexFridman Continue to spread love and intellectual curiosity in us all ;)

[@chanukiillushkaseresinhe7597]

Truly insightful. Very excited about this series!

[@RafaelKaufmann]

Like early-stage startups, small, recently-independent countries are more able to rally around a common vision and adapt to changing circumstances. As an Israeli citizen, I always mention Israel as the prime example of this, but it's great to see that this can happen even in Old Europe :)

[@praxis22]

Sinagapore too.

[@viome8797]

oops- how about China ?

[@markusschmidt7513]

Instead of repeatedly emphasising the deportation of her grandparents under Stalinism, which was undoubtedly very bad, she could also mention that her father made a career in the Soviet Union and later became Estonian prime minister. From a Western European perspective, it is also difficult to fully recognise a country as serious that restricts minority rights to such an extent that certain minorities arent granted citizenship and have to live without regular passports.

[@kriimdriim]

You obviously do not know the topic - having a gray passport is the choice of these people, because it gives the opportunity to move freely across the borders both east and west. No one forbids them to apply for EE citizenship, but they don't want that, as well as learn the Estonian language, among other things.

[@markusschmidt7513]

@@kriimdriimExactly, they do not get the passport because they dont want to learn the Estonian langauge. Even if the grey passport does allow them to pass the Narva border much quicker - this should not even be a choice. Here in Western Europe we do have a lot of minority languages, such as Germans in the norh of Italy and in the East of Belgium, Danish people in the north of Germany, or Basques in the north of Spain. For us it would be completely absurd and unthinkable, refusing these people a passport if they dont want to pass a language test in a language which is not their native one..Also given the conflict that we so gladly have overcome with our European Union.

[@kriimdriim]

@@markusschmidt7513 Knowing history you shoudn't compare minorities in Germany and Russian speakers in Estonia. We know better.

[@marisolgrandon2450]

Great show! Fascinating perspectives

[@mercurious6699]

Great new series - and a pleasure to see Azeem Azhar hosting

[@robbiestamp8454]

Catalytic States indeed… this is a terrific addition to the breadth of Exponential View’s thinking.

[@FrederickCasa]

Estonia is in good hands. 🇪🇪

[@ch1an1tal]

Fascinating!

[@ps-ic8pm]

PM Kallas is sucha strong, intelligent, eloquent, and beautiful leader that I find her very inspiring. I stopped in Tallinn on a cruise and found it Estonia fascinating.

[@dominicdmello7531]

Intelligent conversation.

[@Orwell1001]

Great episode! Looking forward to the rest of the series.

[@kendi1417]

Since when do Americans believe in democracy?

[@K-zu1lg]

great project!

[@martinkoitmae6655]

Excellent video

[@Bo-Ris-Yel-Xin]

Poland, Lithuania and Czech Republic are no worse than Estonia when it comes to computerization, digitalization and the implementation of AI. Eastern Europe has a greatly growing IT industry which will generate big revenues and make these Eastern countries richer

[@bepimottes8093]

At the end of the Soviet occupation the Estonian population was healthy and educated. Their progress started from a good foundation.

[@Supermariocrosser]

Estonia is a culturally soviet finnic nordic country. Estonia had been very similar to finland in its historical development before communism. Estonian cultural values are only to be hindered by the russian soviet era. If not Estonia could have been a full fledged nordic democracy. Estonian society who advocate for finnonordic politics are very willing to embrace progressive values as part of it cultural identity. But Estonian society is rather elitist and university oriented due to the russian and soviet union influence in history and has its roots from socialism in Prussian germany. Thus in short the idea of digital democracy is a very sophisticated and modern concept.

[@666j1]

"Digital Democracy" AKA Authoritarianism

[@jebbo-c1l]

Estonia is a great democracy

[@jebbo-c1l]

Estonia has alot to teach other EU members. If only Germany or Italy had the same level of digitalisation

[@cryohellinc]

Better ask her why her husband was trading with Russia and their companies after sanctions were installed.

[@aleksandarstankovic3202]

Her husband's company was not violating sanctions. It was helping another company exit Russian market.

[@davereynolds3403]

are you open to perspectives other than your own ? why is trading with russia bad ? because russia invaded ukraine, right ? why did russia invade ? because the USA militarised ukraine just like kruschev tried to militarise Cuba in the 60s. if the USA was right to insist on zero soviet bases on their doorstep in the 60s, why can’t russia insist on zero NATO bases in ukraine 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@aleksandarstankovic3202]

@@davereynolds3403 Even Prigozin said that this argument is a complete BS. If this was the case, where is the “denazification and demilitarization” of Finland? They announced last May that they will push for NATO membership and they successfully joined this April. Russia had 10 months to “denazification and demilitarization” them, yet that didn’t happen. Keep in mind that Russia has 1340 km of land border with Finland. What is happening is a imperialistic war organized by🗑️🇷🇺 simply because they (Putin and his chronie oligarchs) are afraid that their people will turn against them if Ukraine started looking like Poland, Czechia, Estonia etc. not to mention that Russian imperialism needs more land and resources like natural gas and coal (eastern Ukraine is full of it), because their economy completely relies on raw magerials and not high tech products. They are one big failed state.

[@svilponis]

Estonian digital democracy is a joke! Kaja Kallas forgot to mention, that in case of Estonian electronic elections it is poasible to cancel persoanally individual casted electronic ballots, and no observer, domestic or international, can check, whose ballots were cancelled. The number of cancelled ballots is huge, it is larger than the total number of members in opposition parties. So it is possible, that all electronic votes from opposition members are secretly cancelled. The chief of the elections commity is a schoolmate of Kaja Kallas. So does the chief of the jury of the Supreme Court, that resolves election complaints. The petition from domestic observers, backed up with thousands of signatures, was rejected by the parliament commity without explanation. There is no democracy in Estonia!

[@petermarshall8750]

Very impressive interview. It's incredible how backward this makes the UK government look.

[@viome8797]

really?-they turning in to China...

[@balu1155]

Wie immer bei diesem Herrn viel heiße Luft. Halte die aktuelle Prognose 14 % für geschönt. Miosga okay weiß man aber auch Lucke und Weidenfeld zu zahm. Gerade Lucke, der bei Welt Vollgas gab uch nucht verstanden. Werde wieder Talkshows ORR meiden, ist vertane Zeit

[@priyanksaklani8176]

Not that i didn't enjoy this conversation but i was hoping for more explanation on 'what Estonia is doing with digital identity?'. There is a similar thing happening in India and digital identity is just the first step. Next step is to move goverment administration online and linking bank accounts to digital identity. This allows government to side step the corrupt middle men and reach directly to people.

[@viome8797]

yeah- to turn country in to China ?

[@ClayShentrup]

estonia has really done something right. so many smart sane bureaucrats like this.

[@relaxingsounds6168]

Thanks to Kallin for showing us with her deals that it's perfectly acceptable to do business with Russia!! Besides successfully trading with Russia, the government of Estonia didn't do much for the population though, as you can discern from the quiet constant reduction in the population of that country after 1991.

[@kriimdriim]

Before the occupation, Estonia had 1.1 mln people. In 1991 it was already 1.6 mln, and you can guess who are those who came (were sent) to Estonia in times of occupation and after 1991 felt the urge to leave. I would say the beneficial reduction happened then mainly Russian-speaking (and -minded) people left. Now it is 1.36 mln, the same as in 2004. But the quiet constant reduction of people is happening generally over the world and there are understandable reasons for that.

[@nikosanchez7058]

Es muy probable que Estados Unidos se inspire el Estonia para optimizar su burocracia, poniendo a Elon Musk en el gobierno.

[@ChristophRother-h4w]

Estland hat in etwa so viele Einwohner wie München . Lasst mal die Kirche im Dorf .

[@OHHnoYOUdidntMAN]

Kaja Kallas im hawny for you 😫

[@guff9567]

Technology can only weaken democracy

[@davereynolds3403]

yes AI is great for financially corrupt countries (like the USA & UK) and also great for dictatorships. democracy requires an absence (or minimization) of surveillance.

[@guff9567]

@@davereynolds3403 Why would people vote if they know they are being spied upon ?

[@pynzlyngdohnonglait6698]

Estonia is now a digital country, where new future digital technology has come..

[@alfredhitchcock45]

AI is overkill for only 1M population

[@matchaa121]

well AI made a decision to give me a scholarship for my Uni and I didn't even have to leave my home or "beg" for anything😀 All my data was already in the government system and based on that AI made the decision. Quite convenient in my opinion

[@Flex385]

Oh man, it can be so easy

[@cherylel]

computer emergency rescue team!!

[@keepcreationprocess]

I don't know, if you people know, but their government has collapsed like my country. I was in Estonia its supermarkets look soo poor with their lack of choices in food....it does not look advanced to me , like people are advanced and special It is not like Asia or so. Asia is impressive - not Europe, brother......Ohhh goodness, they have the 💶 eEuro prediction for disaster....Only a few people, so it is easy to implement this...

[@inchaaliyeva1504]

In the EU, with all the multilevel policies, regulations in place they are more interested to create a society which has norms, values, sustainability. For them it's not only about consuming, consuming, consuming, but also twin transition ( digital and sustainability) I am not saying EU is a perfect place, but at least this is what their governments are aiming for their citizens

[@NoelleChanHin]

She is such a liar 😮

[@willz229]

Soviet "empire" Soviet "oppression, yep definitely no sentimental bias here

[@Bram06]

Estonia was invaded by the Soviet Union as a consequence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. This provision of the treaty was kept secret, as both Hitler and Stalin knew it would be an obvious give-away that this would be an occupation. The Estonian people never willingly joined the Soviet Union. When the chance came, the Estonian people stood up and declared their independence. In the first free election in 1992, the Communist Party did not take part, as it had disolved itself on 26 March 1990. Let me repeat that: the Communist Party was so terrible that they themselves didn't want to continue. The last Chairman of the Communist Party, Väljas, voted for independence. During the occupation, 124,000 Estonian citizens were systematically deported and replaced by Russians. As a consequence of mistreatment during imprisonment, 11,000 died. According to most scholars, this constituted an act of genocide. You can research Operation Priboi for yourself. Yes, it was opression and you're in denial about something that causes millions of people great suffering and death. You're still living under the intentional delusion by Hitler and Stalin - who together killed thousands of millions of people - that Estonia was not conquered. It was. There is evidence for it. Even modern-day Russia awknowledges it, despite the negative ramifications.

[@eksiarvamus]

The Soviets were allied to the Nazis and co-started WW2, thereafter illegally occupied and heavily repressed sovereign Estonia.

[@U_H89]

We will hear that again when Russia is free 🤷...

[@jebbo-c1l]

thats what it was. People in her family were literally deported to Siberia. How would you feel?