How I Became A Convinced Christian Universalist

[@BingoNamo-gb8pz]

I didn’t even consider universalism until I made a decision to love people the way Jesus said to love people, even enemies, even them that hate you & curse you. Then I kept thinking, there’s no way my love is greater than God’s love. I can love, forgive, be merciful to everyone, but God can’t? I’m superior to God? Jesus is the one who said that by loving EVERYONE I would actually be perfect AS my Heavenly Father is perfect. If God loves all, Jesus died for all & His mercy is everlasting & love never fails & all things are possible with God, what could possibly stop God from saving all who died in Adam, the SON of GOD?

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@@BingoNamo-gb8pz Awesome stuff! These are points that are too often not considered. Thanks for sharing!

[@nikokapanen82]

I do not believe that all will be saved because to be saved means you will be spared from the consequences of your sins, most people will face the consequences of their sins, however, those consequences won't be literally endless because the sins were not endless. For finite sins, there will be finite consequences.

[@jeffreyjdesir]

I summarize this perspective to be universalism with refinements (not an attack but reduction), I can't disagree fully but I think either way this opposes the common view that God eternally consigns souls to hell for rejecting his son Jesus while wishing that none should perish. I wonder how this would change evangelism..

[@Zedek_PhD]

If I told you “I love all flowers, especially the lilies of the field”; would you conclude that I only love lilies? Source: 1 Timothy 4:10 “Christ is the savior of all men, especially those who believe.” You might correctly say….save and love are two completely different words, however, the one who saved us did so because it was the mission given to him by our Father in Heaven who guess what….yea, loves us.

[@nikokapanen82]

@chriscuomo9334 There are no 20 verses that clearly talk about the lake of fire being eternal. There are plenty of verses that clearly indicate that the eventual condition of the universe will be in perfect order and that all will come to God and worship Him. You simply ignore them just like I ignore the verses that supposedly indicate torment is eternal.

[@nikokapanen82]

@chriscuomo9334 Also, are you saying I am supposed to like how my dad and my siblings and billions of other people who never killed or tormented anybody in their lives, will be tormented by God forever and ever? Should that bring me joy or what are you talking about?

[@nikokapanen82]

@@Zedek_PhD If you end up facing the harsh consequences of your sins, then you were not saved even if those consequences are finite. Jesus came to save us from the consequences of our sins and from sins themselves.

[@tommywarren4633]

The restoration of all things is what the church taughtfor the first 450 years until we got mixed up with Augustine and the Latin Vulgate, and there is no hell in the true Hebrew or Greek scriptures from cover to cover, hell is purely a pagan myth, Jesus never said it and his apostles never taught,it!!!!

[@peacemakers6316]

Jesus is divine mercy 🙏 I do think He saves all, He is God. Jesus I trust in you.

[@Tiredhike]

Thank you for your story, I grew up Baptist but now am happily Anglican. I’ve came to ultimate restoration recently. Reading the church fathers(especially Gregory of Nyssa)the trajectory of scripture, Robin Parry, and listening to this channel has been helpful in me coming to this. There is still a lot of mystery in how this all will work out but I am fine with that. I also wanted to mention that universalism is also profoundly present in many Christian mystics and monastics. I read the mystics and monastics often and universalism is so apparent to them it is not even questioned. Keep up the good work. God Bless

[@micahtewersofficial]

Awesome video man. Completely agree.

[@mattr.1887]

Former diehard believer here (ECT). I am impressed with how balanced you seem to be. I can't imagine that being a convinced universalist and attending a Southern Baptist is always an easy task. And yet here you are. You seem like one of the good guys.

[@johndalton1043]

My father was a Southern Baptist minister and so I still attend a church that practices Southern Baptist theology. I simply disagree with them in eschatology. Our upper tier beliefs of grace, repentance and faith are identical.

[@jamesbarksdale978]

You have an interesting channel, young man. Over the course of my life since coming to faith in Christ, 52 years to be exact, I have held to what is now known as the doctrine of ECT. I've never liked it, but have seen it as biblical. Frankly, I still do, as much as it disturbs me. I've read Parry's book, watched countless YT videos like your own, and am currently working through Hronich's book. Although each of you has some interesting arguments, I'm not convinced. Most Universalists tend to start with the belief that God is love (which I also do), which usually leads to an assertion that, since he is love, everyone will be saved in the end, since a God of love could never be content within himself knowing that there are souls experiencing torture for all eternity. This could be a discussion for another time. Then, there are the haunting biblical passages that imply that all things will eventually be reconciled to God. Conversely, however, there are several passages that imply ECT, and others that suggest conditional immortality. So, what am I saying here? Just that if one is going to read Scripture seriously, he or she must be careful not to allow their personal feelings or hopes to rule their hermeneutic. I'm not saying you are. But, unfortunately, I think I see this tendency among many who support some sort of Christian Universalism. So, I keep reading and watching because I want to be convinced that Ultimate Restoration is a legitimate biblical alternative. Convince me, will you? 🙂

[@songsthatarecatchy]

There's also that thing called "faith".

[@YoshiBlad3]

Because God said it was his will, and if he’s God, whose will is unchanging and greater than ours, will accomplish it. I don’t believe Jesus is a failure or the savior of ‘some of the world’ or that he will be ‘all in some’. Do I believe those who have done evil without repentance might suffer discipline? Like many of my CU brothers and sisters, I do, and it may be for a long time, but it’s in the Bible that it is redemptive and restorative. Please research in the original Koine Greek or Hebrew and you will see what I mean. I appreciate your openness, gentleness, and seeking of the truth, even if we currently do not agree. Peace. May Christ reign in you, brother.

[@songsthatarecatchy]

​@@YoshiBlad3Amen brother

[@YoshiBlad3]

@@songsthatarecatchy Amen!

[@johndalton1043]

I agree that depending on how the texts is read that there appears to be prima facie support for three positions in eschatology. Annihilation ECT and ultimate reconciliation. Let's start with Paul. Paul never once uses the term Gehenna. In Acts we see where Paul is put on trial multiple times for what he is preaching and not once does Luke report that the court records have anything to do with ECT or annihilation. I found this interesting. In Acts, Paul was preaching a resurrection of the dead. The Sanhedrin were split because the the Sadducees didn't believe in ontological beings and the Pharisees did. So what was Paul advocating for? Paul was advocating for a cosmic Christ because Judaism has no concept of a partial Messiah. For instance, 2 Corinthians 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ not counting men's sins against them. That's pretty straightforward language. It's cosmic. Romans 11:36 of Him and to Him and through Him are all things. Cosmic Colossians 1 :16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. You won't find Paul talking about annihilation or any type of eternal damnation. He outlines the mystery of death in 1 Corinthians 15 and these doctrines are nowhere to be found. Colossians 1:19 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things on earth or in heaven. This is universal language. 1 Corinthians 15:22 for even as in Adam all are dying thus also in Christ shall all be made alive. This theme is on repeat by Paul. 1 Timothy 4:9-11 states "we trust in the Living God who is the savior of all men, especially the believer". I have a question. If I said that I rescued all animals, especially kittens, would you deduce that I only rescue kittens? See what I'm saying? Paul was unequivocally a Christian Universalist because in Judaism the Messiah is cosmic.

[@JESUSisLORD2024]

Here are Bible verses often cited against universalism (the idea that all people will ultimately be saved): *Old Testament* 1. *Psalm 9:17*: "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." 2. *Proverbs 10:24*: "What the wicked fears will come upon him, but the desire of the righteous will be granted." 3. *Daniel 12:2*: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." *New Testament* 1. *Matthew 25:41*: "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" 2. *Matthew 25:46*: "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." 3. *Luke 16:19-31*: The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, illustrating eternal separation. 4. *John 3:36*: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." 5. *2 Thessalonians 1:8-9*: "In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." 6. *Revelation 20:15*: "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." *Verses Emphasizing the Importance of Faith and Salvation* 1. *John 14:6*: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" 2. *Acts 4:12*: "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." 3. *Romans 10:9-10*: "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." *Additional Resources* For further study and understanding, consider consulting: 1. Scripture commentaries (e.g., Matthew Henry, John MacArthur) 2. Theological texts (e.g., "Systematic Theology" by Wayne Grudem) 3. Christian apologetics resources (e.g., C.S. Lewis, Ravi Zacharias) Would you like more information or specific biblical responses to universalist arguments? Source: meta ai with llama

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@@JESUSisLORD2024 And yet, all of these verses can be thoroughly explained as essential and coherent parts of a Christian Universalist framework. But I’ve yet to hear a single good argument for reconciling Colossians 1:15-20 with the idea that any measure of humanity will never be reconciled to God. Colossians 1:15-20 proves universal reconciliation.

[@FudgecakeMinister]

11:47 You believe in Hell and eternal punishment but one day it will all be emptied and all men will finally be united with Christ???? That literally makes no sense, if people go to be eternally punished in Hell then that lasts forever. Eternal means forever so how will Hell be empty and all men eventually be united with Christ if it's eternal/forever?

[@BingoNamo-gb8pz]

My father swatted me 32 years ago for spitting in his face. It was an eternal punishment. I will never forget & never do it again. The punishment lasts for eternity because it was eternally punitive. You can even say it’s working right now as I’m writing this & has been for 32 years without end.

[@monicashuart-ls1hw]

Christ said in john 5:28-29, apostle Paul said in acts 24:15, all will be resurrected some to eternal life others to eternal damnation.

[@stephengorman1025]

No he doesn't he talks about the resurrection to life and the resurrection to judgement which is not eternal domination. We have to study the text prayerfully guided by the Spirit.

[@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838]

Happy to have found this channel. I've felt kind of alone out here for a long time. btw, apokatastasis is pronounced ah-poke-uh-tas-tah-sis. That per Dr. Ilaria Ramelli

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Thanks so much for commenting! I’ve watched some of your stuff and really appreciate your work.

[@linjicakonikon7666]

I pronounce it a.pock.a.tuh.STAY.sis Rolls off the tongue easily.

[@joshuadonahue5871]

There is no single correct way to pronounce an ancient Greek word, especially when speaking in a language that is not ancient Greek

[@GaliscesGaming]

Hey Austin. I've actually thought about the Judas thing already, and my own interpretation of this is that when Jesus says it would have been better for Judas not to have been born, he's referring specifically to birth and not to conception. What I mean is that Jesus isn't saying it would have been better for Judas if he had never existed, but simply that it would've been better if he died before he came out of the womb so that he would've been spared the refining process that he's going to have to endure for betraying Jesus. I apply a similar logic to when Jesus says it would be better for someone to have a millstone hung around their neck and to be tossed into the ocean than for him to offend "one of these little ones" and tempt them to sin. What he's saying is that their penalty after death, although not eternal, will be immensely painful as to say that it would legitimately have been better for him to be cast into the ocean with a millstone hung around his neck without this sin to make his punishment in the afterlife so bad.

[@trappedcat3615]

That's a good point. Another is all are created by Christ and for Him. There are no persons created in vain. It can never be said such persons were better off not being created.

[@GaliscesGaming]

@@trappedcat3615 Absolutely. Even stubborn proponents of eternal conscious torment will usually concede that all are created by Christ and for him as you said.

[@Tiredhike]

Not a bad take.

[@noobsaibotavb4771]

Hey what do you think people go through now when they die do they go to sheol and soul sleep? So they do not have to consciously go through anything and are just soul sleep and they get to go to heaven at the rapture/ resurrection? I believe that is what happenes

[@GaliscesGaming]

And just to add to my comment about Jesus referring to Judas' birth and not Judas' existence, I did look into the Greek for this. I don't remember the word to be honest, this was a few weeks ago, and obviously I hope you look into this for yourself, but the word that Jesus uses for "born" actually means just that. It doesn't refer to conception, and it definitely doesn't refer to existence.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Your points are valid and well marked. The millstone illustration is actually used side-by-side with the “better to have never been born” illustration in other early Christian writings. So your logic makes sense. Thanks a bunch for sharing!

[@GaliscesGaming]

@@orthodoxuniversalist Thanks Austin! Having given it further thought also, I almost want to say that Jesus using analogies like the millstone or saying it would've been better for Judas if he had never been born sound redundant if the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is true. If that doctrine is true, then really you could make the case that the majority of humanity would be better off if they had never been born or if they were cast into the ocean with a millstone, regardless of whether they betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver or tempted a newer Christian to sin.

[@bodebreathingspace]

God's love for sinners cant be stifled even in the next life. ❤

[@wayneverhoff2790]

How do you believe in eternal punishment if you believe one day Hell will be emptied and all people will be united in Christ?

[@therealgoodnews4804]

Very good. One thing to consider, and that is the fact that the act of man of “accepting Christ” has absolutely nothing to do with being saved from death in Adam. Nothing whatsoever. Yeshua’s death and resurrection automatically saved everyone eternally without exception. No need for adding any help from dead sinners. The only thing left is that everyone eventually become aware of this already accomplished fact. So consider teaching from this perspective. Man plays no part whatsoever ever in saving himself from eternal death in Adam. Nor does he play any part in enlightening himself to the fact that Yeshua already accomplished this for us all.

[@mattr.1887]

I wish more folks had this perspective.

[@colbytheresa4504]

Three things happened in my life in relatively short succession. A friend of mine, in a debate, shattered my naive belief in eternal hell, I read Nyssa's "On the Soul and Resurrection," and then my Mother, who had been living in sin for a long time, suddenly passed away. I have to think that my groping towards universalism was providential. At the very least, I'm still probing the question. It is difficult for us Catholics, who have layers and layers of tradition surrounding Hell. Appreciate all of you who speak on this topic, especially fellow Catholics like Jordan Daniel Wood. Blessings of Christ be with you all.

[@johndalton1043]

I grew up with a father who was a Southern Baptist minister, married a Catholic, and ended up becoming a Christian Universalist. I don't believe one verse when read in proper context advocates for eternal damnation.

[@LiberalDefeater]

I wanted to ask you if there is any websites or place online that you know of where you can read academic/scholarly literature on the topic of Universalism. Just anything regarding the topic, Biblical passages and Hermeneutics, Church history or eschatology or whatever. I really felt the calling to really study this topic in depth but I am finding it hard to find answers to questions I have. Let me know, I will appreciate it!

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for the comment! Honestly, I’ve found very few helpful websites out there. This isn’t to say that they aren’t around - I just haven’t found them, either. As with anything else, there are SO MANY poorly constructed arguments in favor of Christian Universalism, that it can be trying to find good content amidst the bad. All this said, you might want to check out tentmaker.org. Some of the content isn’t appealing to me personally but you will find some good articles, lists, and so on. I’ve also really enjoyed using earlychristiancommentary.com as part of my regular Bible study. Since I’ve been utilizing it, I have often found very compelling evidence of universalist leanings in the church fathers, even when I wasn’t looking for it. Hope this helps.

[@LiberalDefeater]

@@orthodoxuniversalist Thanks. I'll check it out

[@twotetah]

Eclectic Orthodoxy is an informative site.

[@johndalton1043]

Try David Bentley Hart or The Harvest Harold. His breakdown on eschatology is very thorough.

[@johndalton1043]

The total victory of Christ and the biggest Jesus are two excellent KZbinrs that take deep dives into hermeneutics, epistemology and eschatology.

[@Empty_Robot]

Can we please get a hint on what that first universalist book is? Please please.

[@Joeyk57030]

My guess is Rob Bell “Love Wins” but who knows, I respect him for not saying what book since he knew he was going to say he didn’t like it

[@naikhanomtom7552]

I thought it would be DBH's book.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

There are a lot of verses that are very PROBLAMATIC for the Universalist viewpoint. John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him.” NOTICE it does NOT say, "He will EVENTUALLY see eternal life... Revelation 20:10 says, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." By the way, the beast (anti-christ) and the false prophet are NOT demons but men. Revelation 14:9-11 says, "Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 20:11-15 says, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." By the way, there is NOT one single verse that even hints that ANYONE thrown into the Lake of Fire will EVER be let out of said lake. 1Timothy 4:10 ...and we believe in the living God who is the savior of ALL men, especially for those who believe." Meaning: Salvation is offered to all men but is ONLY special to those who believe. Why? Again, John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

[@langbergloghomes2138]

Is there a specific book from Gregory of nazianzus that you would recommend reading?

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

I would recommend reading all of his orations. I hadn’t read the majority of these myself until a year or two ago. Very good stuff!

[@Sc3tchy]

I would like to here which scriptures tell us, that hell will be emptied out and that all will come to Christ, if possible. Thank you!

[@johndalton1043]

Sure. In Isaiah he tells us every knee will bow and tongue confess. Paul echos Isaiah twice by stating every knee shall bow and tongue confess. David comes very close to saying the exact same thing and Revelation tells us what we will be saying. Further, it will be to God's glory. Isaiah goes so far as to say that God has sworn this unto Himself because there is no greater power. This predetermined event is going to happen. Then we have other texts that lend itself to ultimate reconciliation. For example, Jesus preached to those in the days of Noah and all who heard believed. We also know the daughters of Sodom will be restored and yet there are no descendants. Paul even goes so far as to say all of Israel will be saved and we know Judaism has no concept of a partial Messiah. That is why it is good news for all, not a good opportunity for some.

[@johndalton1043]

Try reading 1 Corinthians 15. This is where Paul outlines the mystery of death.

[@TryingToFollowChrist37]

If hell is empty how does the eternal punishment continue? In the 11:45 mark you make contradictory statements hence my question. I'm genuinely curious about this issue as I had an person experience where I felt the Holy Spirit touch me and that's what I felt from him but it left me confused as this wasn't anything I was really taught, So I put it down to been over whelmed and not understanding God's Providence with my human finite mind.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@@TryingToFollowChrist37 Thanks for commenting! I explain an alternative understanding of “eternal punishment” in the video “Universalism Debunked?”.

[@TryingToFollowChrist37]

@@orthodoxuniversalist Thank you I check it out

[@YoshiBlad3]

Funny enough, if you look into the original Greek of ‘Eternal’ (Aionios) it refers to an ‘age’ or a period of time and not the eternity we know in English, there are many examples of ‘eternal’ contracts, fates, and such, all coming to an end within the Bible if you read through it thoroughly.

[@KMPSA]

a few thoughts on this topic: Revelations mentions eternal punishment, in the English text but the correct translation of the original language is "unto the age", which is a definite time period. God appeared to Moses in the burning bush - the bush was not burnt by the fire. Fire is used throughout the bible, many times it refers to God himself. The parable of lazarus and the rich man is exactly that - A PARABLE. The wages of Sin is death. Not eternal punishment. "without holiness no one will see God" - yet there is a scripture that says in that day all will see him, even those who pierced him. and my personal favorite is the mention of HELL thrown into the lake of fire in the book of revelations. HELL is a spirit, not a location.

[@jasonbell9975]

One of your best videos yet brother! I'm also a Christian universalist, and we attend a very conservative freewill Baptist church. Even though I think I'm the only believer in ultimate restoration of all, I still love my church and brethern dearly, and it is indeed a great refuge for all🎉🙏🏼

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Great stuff! Thanks for sharing!

[@TrevorDowns007]

Good summary! Funny I assumed you were EO as well.

[@TryingToFollowChrist37]

Isn't the very meaning of the word catholic mean universal?

[@nikita000001]

Hi, thanks for sharing. I am wondering why you believe that there will always be eternal hell?

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for commenting! I believe in eternal punishment but I don’t think it will “always” be. I think we can understand the eternal in contrast to the temporal. Anything within eternity can be described as “eternal” but that doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is locked in that something permanently. Nor does it mean that that something will always exist. I talk about this in a little more detail in some of my other videos (“Universalism Debunked?” for example). Thanks again!

[@billybobwombat2231]

The longer one stays out of the religion the more odd it looks, its a strange way to spend a life in, at least from the outside looking in.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

1st John 5:9 says, "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does NOT BELIEVE GOD has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." This says, BELIEVING IN Christ you have eternal life. NOT believing in Christ is calling God a liar, for God says you must believe in Christ for eternal life. You as a universalist say everyone is saved. You, according to this scripture are calling God a liar. This verse destroys Universalism, because it PLAINLY says, "...this is the testimony: that God has given us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God DOES NOT HAVE LIFE." This clearly says, NOT all will inherit eternal life, but ONLY those who believe on the Son. You, in your false Doctrine of UNIVERSALISM are calling God a LIAR.

[@GaiatheSage]

I would argue some level of purgatorial universalism applies to most of us with cognitive agency but a literalist universalism applies for those with severe cognitive disabilities. I don't think some disabled child born of the dalit caste is going to hell because of bad existential luck. quite happy to see youtube's crappy fundie algorithm actually directing me to something of value.

[@Yipper64]

My thought on cognitive disabilities is the fact that they are purely in the flesh. I do not thing cognitive disabilities apply to the soul. Therefore, they will be of sober mind when they pass, and God will judge rightly then, keeping in mind the flesh has held their minds back from comprehending the debt and price to be paid, that will be when they can truly make their decision to follow Christ. Though, that is mostly my own speculation, it makes the most sense to me.

[@bethany2849]

@@Yipper64 Hm, I disagree, insofar as they are born with the disability. We call brain differences that prevent people from meeting societal expectations disabilities, but these differences are often an inseparable part of who someone is and can have many positives. For example, I simply wouldn’t be myself if I weren’t on the autism spectrum. Furthermore, those with intellectual disabilities, who are disregarded the most by our ableist society, can live joyful lives even if they aren’t “productive.” At what point is a low iq “corrupted flesh?” I too can only speculate but I believe that our new, risen bodies will reflect our unique identities and abilities as well as God’s goodness, and that we will all dwell in peace. (By the way, I don’t say any of this to come at you defensively, just sharing my perspective!)

[@Yipper64]

​@@bethany2849 I just generally dont really hold "autism" as a high part of "who I am" its really more "something I have" and "who I am" is exclusively defined by God. And I think its a slippery slope when you say that every part of your worldly body is "God defining you" in any sense. Take that too far and people can start saying "well this sinful behavior is part of who I am, its how God made me, so I can do it" when that isnt true. And the main thing about people living joyus lives despite not being "productive" well, that's almost the issue in an of itself. When you are not being productive what are you doing? Well, not something for others. And what is the second greatest commandment? I think people even with intellectual disabilities are capable of doing things for others, even if less efficiently as most. But that's almost aside the point. I do appreciate your perspective however, I do like to hear how other people think.

[@bethany2849]

@@Yipper64 Thanks for responding, I really appreciate the discussion. There’s a lot to unpack here. Yes, God defines us. He also creates us uniquely with different preferences, personalities, capabilities, and ways of thinking, and it’s a good thing! Your hypothetical in which a person is led to believe sin is a part of how God made them is an example of the slippery slope fallacy. Disabilities and sin are two entirely different matters. I don’t believe that God expects people with intellectual disabilities to help others in any way that they are genuinely not able to, so they’re not sinning if they don’t. Their existence reflects God’s glory in other ways. Our sinful, fallen world displays selfishness, judgement and discrimination, so it groans and complains about people who are different. Autism advocates point out that we live in a society that wasn’t built for us. We’re bullied and fed the message autism = bad to the point that many of us become self-hating. Thankfully, this is slowly changing. If I’m reading your comment correctly and you are also autistic, I’d recommend you look into positive autism advocacy. For me, saying “I’m autistic” acknowledges that my personality would be unrecognizable without autism, so I say I’m autistic. It’s like how people usually say “I’m funny,” “I’m laid-back” etc. instead of saying “I have xyz personality trait.” God gave us a different way of thinking because we, like all people, have a divine purpose and are a part of His plan for redemption.

[@Yipper64]

@@bethany2849 I dont deny there are aspects of my own personality would be unrecognizable without autism. Part of the answer to the problem of suffering entails that, the struggles we face in this life make us who we are for the next. I get that, but I also dont like the idea of making that a *core component* of who I am. Often, I find it is best to separate physical differences (be it in the brain or otherwise), from the actions committed. Temptation isnt sin after all, its the resulting act of that temptation where sin comes from. Not to say that mental disabilities cause sin of course, but im speaking more generally. I dont think autism = bad, quite the contrary, its a different function for the brain, and can have its own advantages. But I find it problematic to then just pretend its struggles are everyone else's fault, a society not built for us. The thing is we live in a fallen world that isnt built for anyone. So that's not a unique circumstance to us, everyone has their own struggles. Ours just have a name, and the name is for us to understand it, and work with it. Why do we need a name for it? Because its something that needs to be coped with, and delt with. I think its ok to acknowledge that. Its a physical process that is not functioning like everyone else which leads to a harder time functioning in society. But that's exactly what leads to those personality traits you mentioned, they come from that struggle of having a harder time than others. One thing ive found in life is that everything is a balance, you need to take in everything as a whole since when you focus on one side of the coin you can easily forget about the other. Focus too much on God's wrath you forget that his wrath comes from love, focus too much on God's love and you forget his wrath is just. Yes you can see autism as a curse and be self hating, but going the other way you can see autism as nothing or even *better than normal,* and blame society for your problems. Neither of these options appear to be reality to me, its more in the middle. Something that is in fact an issue, but not one to have self hate over.

[@incorectulpolitic]

How do universalists explain this?: Revelation 20:15 ''And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.''

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for comment! For the Historic Christian Universalists (who follow the tradition of Origen, Gregory Nyssen, Clement of Alexandria, etc.) we simply affirm it. We 100% believe in the existence of the lake of fire and believe many people will be sent into it. We just believe that it is synonymous with the prison of Matthew 5:26, and therefore content that people will “get out” of it when the “last penny” is paid. Great question!

[@Noemie291]

​@@orthodoxuniversalist Hell was the prison. Some people who are in the book of life are indeed saved after they have paid their debt in Hell. But the ones thrown in the lake are the damned, the ones not in the book, the ones who commited offences that killed their soul so their debt can never be repaid.

[@thecoopfamily2475]

I respect your humility brother. I too still attend church and don't wish to break fellowship. I'm concerned about how I might be treated if my views came to light. I've been contemplating sharing my views with the pastor or youth pastor (where I serve) so I don't feel like I'm hiding anything. I struggle sometimes too hearing the gospel taught in ways I no longer align with. (I don't believe in Penal substatution attonment anymore either). Any thoughts here?

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks so much for your continued comments on the channel! I really appreciate your support! Your struggle with whether or not to share really resonates. Since I became convinced of the doctrine of apokatastasis, I’ve found I had more peace when I did share with the pastoral staff. So, in the last few churches we’ve attended (changing due to moving to a different state and then back again, etc.) I’ve spoken with at least one pastor on staff about it, at each church. But in the case of the church we attend now, I didn’t do so until we’d been attending for around six months. It just feels like there’s a lot at stake. If the conversation doesn’t go well, what then? I have to think of more than myself… my wife and daughter need the fellowship as well and they need their pursuit of Christ to be bigger than just listening to what dad says about the Bible, etc. In short, they need the church - and so do I. All this said, I’ve found that every conversation I’ve had has been a lot more positive than I expected. While there’s often a decision made to “agree to disagree,” the experience has been surprisingly cordial, and I’ve never been asked to leave the church. So, in my own experience thus far, being up front about it with those in authority in the church has seemed to result in a fairly positive experience. Not sure if any of this helps. Circumstances can vary widely. I pray the Lord will give you the best insight/direction for your situation.

[@mattr.1887]

That's really great to hear!

[@michaelnelson1270]

If only this form of universalism were the dominant stream of thought in the 19th century. I was a Unitarian Universalist for a fairly brief time in my spiritual journey, but I learned about the denomination's history. Indeed, late 18th/early 19th century universalism was much like what is presented on this channel. But the dominant stream of thought became what was then called ultra-universalism--the idea that all people are saved at death and sin has no punishment beyond this life. The Universalist Church in America later began to question both the divinity of Christ and the authority of scripture. They merged with the Unitarians in the early 60's. Both denominations had arrived at the same heresies by different paths. Today's UU's are not heretics--they are not and do not profess to be Christians. I grieve how the Universalists (once the fifth-largest church in America and growing) did not stay the course and remain orthodox Trinitarian Christians. They had the good news of God's neverending love to proclaim and ended up failing miserably.

[@michaelnelson1270]

Amen. That almost got me but Christ snitched me back pretty quick. He's a great truthful God! People need to know about the good news! This unselfishly act was prophesized and many religions leave out that which is the core of our belief

[@mattr.1887]

Modern-day UU is just a weekly meeting place for leftists.

[@justchilling704]

Excellent video I had a very similar journey. Wasn’t looking for universalism, however upon researching it and listening to some solid content in it including criticisms, (even my own). I think the free will view of it is correct, one thing is clear from scripture, Free Will is providential, it’s a gift from God, one he clearly doesn’t want to take back I mean that defeats the purpose.

[@baruchbobo9993]

I'm glad for your testimony and we are all growing in the grace of the Master, I believe too much is made of the church fathers the reformers when Scripture should be sufficient our example is Messiah alone and as the apostle Paul said follow me as I follow the Savior. Forty verses and more I'm sure admonish us to walk as He walked He taught that Salvation is for all and that He would not be mocked, let's take our faith seriously and be urgent to lift Him up, He will be urgent to draw all men to Himself. ONE LOVE, AMEIN AMEIN!!!

[@mstkldesign]

if the consequences of sin and rejecting God are not eternal, we may as well do what we want and live like atheists since all will eventually be okay thats what any form of universalism boils down to

[@drooskie9525]

Whether you are universalist or ECT, both have their hang-ups, so pick your poison. Although, the universalism as described by David Bentley Hart is more along the lines of Saint Gregory of Nyssa, that is, Hell is "purgatorial". A refiners fire, of sorts. You definitely do not want to go through that and should be a warning; not presume you, as with everyone else, just casually waltz into heaven.

[@pt7930]

I don't understand this logic honestly. If the consequences of denying God aren't eternal and all will eventually accept him, then denying him in the present to live a life of sin, heartache, and what have you is entirely meaningless. You're sinning for nothing. It's like the old saying goes, "why settle for less when you can have more?", and in this case you're settling for non-belief when you could have a wonderful relationship with Christ in the present. Plus, is endless punishment sound when neither the sin nor sinful identity gets erased? Technically speaking, while you don't have eternal life with God, you still get to keep your pride in who you think you are Hell, so it ultimately defeats the purpose of any form of correction; not to mention it calls into question God's power and resolute willingness to save those he loves (humanity) when countless non-believers have perished before Christ & after who didn't hear the gospel.

[@MM-ub2xv]

So then you don’t truly want to serve God?

[@MM-ub2xv]

@chriscuomo9334have you read a single universalist argument?

[@MM-ub2xv]

@chriscuomo9334 yes… I have read the entire Bible many times. For all the verses that seemingly talk about eternal punishment there are translational or contextual issues with it. I encourage you to actually watch some orthodox universalists explain this

[@CurtisMiller-w9m]

It’s a blessing your carpets and pews matched. I say if your vocal on your beliefs, you may be disfellowshipped. You didn’t say how much you challenged the status quo of devil winning theology. (So few getting saved..)

[@JoshMcSwain]

Interesting. The whole time I thought you were eastern orthodox and you actually aren't.

[@ChristisLordandKing]

Universalism is a condemned heresy. I used to buy into this before actually delving into the Church Fathers. God willing I will become a catechumen soon. An Orthodox universalist doesn't exist. That's like saying you can be an Orthodox Nestorian.

[@vcrsalesman2606]

You sound a lot like James Rolfe (AVNG) That’s not an insult, just a humorous observation

[@jackshadow325]

What are you being saved from exactly? According to Paul, when there is no law sin is not imputed (Romans 5.13). What law did you sin/transgress against, and what law does Jesus save you from? According to Hebrews 9.15 Jesus's death redeemed those who transgressed under the first covenant, which was the law of Moses.

[@vincentcoppola9832]

From death. Read the next verse "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Adam's sin brought death into the world and it reigned over a;; even those who did not sin.

[@jackshadow325]

@@vincentcoppola9832 Yes, that’s a good answer. How exactly does Jesus save one from death?

[@vincentcoppola9832]

@@jackshadow325 It's - how did He. Any short answer I can give is not enough for a complete understanding, but, in Revelation Jesus said "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." Jesus has authority over life and death. He can give life and He promises to give life to all who repent and believe in Him, love Him and love His way of life. Read your bible and get connected with a church that teaches the apostolic faith.

[@michaelnelson1270]

@@jackshadow325 John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Death here refers to spiritual death not only physical death. In the end, all shall believe and bow the knee, whether in this world or the next. So God will be all in all.

[@jackshadow325]

@@michaelnelson1270 What is “spiritual death?” I’ve never seen that term in scripture. How does Jesus cause one to believe and “bow the knee in this world or the next?”

[@MB777-qr2xv]

Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous to ETERNAL life.” John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath REMAINS on them. Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” 2Thessalonians 1:9 “They will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire NEVER goes out.” Jude 1:7 “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of ETERNAL fire.” Matthew 13:42 “They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 25:41 ““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Revelation 19:20 “But the beast (and the false prophet) were captured…the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” These are NOT demons, but men. Revelation 20:13-14 “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and EACH PERSON was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.” Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER and ever, and they have no rest, DAY OR NIGHT…” Does this plethora of verses sound in any way like "ALL will be saved?" By the way, these are NOT my words, but rather the Bible.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for sharing! It’s an often overlooked fact that there are multiple types of universalism. Ultra-universalism teaches that people don’t go to hell at all. Biblical, historical Christian Universalism teaches that many people will go to hell, it just rejects the idea that their time there will be of unending duration. As to the term “eternal” used in reference to the punishments of hell, I’d offer the videos on the channel called “Universalism Debunked?” And “Would it have been better for Judas to have never been born?” These dive into that issue in more detail. Thanks again!

[@YoshiBlad3]

Ah, so you think Jesus is a loser! Thanks for clarifying.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

@@orthodoxuniversalist Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Some say the word translated "forever" is the Greek word aiōnion and it can mean eternal or age-long. But in Matthew 25:46, it says, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse, and they are a contrast: eternal life vs eternal damnation.

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

What about apocatastasis? It would be an injustice. How do you know you are interpreting scripture properly? How do you know you have the correct books in your canon? How do you determine between non-essential vs. essential doctrines? How can something revealed by God be non-essential? Universalism is possible if all reach repentance prior to death. I am not saying it is impossible since Christ died for all so we can hope that it is true. But you can't have universalism if Hell has even one person, because Hell is eternal. "The doors of Hell are locked from the inside."

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@@apostolicapologetics4829 Thanks for commenting! There’s a video on the channel about “Essential Doctrine According to Christian Universalism.” This may address some of your questions. I am curious as to why you think apocatastasis is an injustice, though. This is a New Testament term. Care to elaborate?

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@orthodoxuniversalist To my knowledge it is not a biblical term. But that wouldn't deter me since I don't hold to Sola/Solo scripture. Example: The Trinity is a non biblical term. But non-biblical doesn't equal anti biblical. The question is did it come to us from the Apostles. It must harmonize with Scripture and it can't contradict scripture but it doesn't have to be exclusively written down to be Apostolic. The canon itself came out of the already preached Apostolic oral teachings and Councils (Acts 15) (2 Thess 2:15). Apocatastasis would be an injustice not universalism if all reach repentance prior to their death. We can hope for all souls not all creatures (fallen angels and Satan). Additionally, we need to ask, What is meant by "all" and the "restoration" of what? Even the damned get their bodies back a resurrection of the just and unjust.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@ see the Greek for Acts 3:21. Also, just out of curiosity, what do you do with passages like Colossians 1:15-20? It seems pretty conclusive.

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@@orthodoxuniversalist God will restore everything to proper order. There will be a new Heaven and a new earth. That does not mean the damned will be saved. Col 1:15-20 does not say the damned will be saved. How are you interpreting these passages? How do you know your interpretation is correct? Just curious. Trying to understand your viewpoint. Are you holding to apocatastasis or universalism?

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@@orthodoxuniversalist Additionally, How do you define a gift? Does a gift need to be freely received to be effectual in our lives? What happens if we neglect or reject a gift?

[@justingeorge8049]

Whats the unnamed book he mentions?

[@jacktaylor7264]

The Universal Christ by Richard Rohr maybe?

[@wayneverhoff2790]

Wait how does universal subjection imply universal salvation?

[@deanfloyd8931]

I have chickens along with roosters. The roosters crow early each morning due to there nature, if I threaten the roosters to stop crowing or else they will be on my dinner menu I'll be eating chicken dinner.....guaranteed

[@michaell1425]

Good job. Now it's time to scrutinize likewise that Nicean faith you extolled. i.e. time to study unitarian Christianity.

[@SibleySteve]

We can cherry pick our favorite quotes in the debates between every faction of church history, especially Alexandria vs Antioch or Latin vs Greek. My problem with a lot of theological method is the hobby ization of our favorite factions. I really like Augustus’s argument against Jerome on the issue of manuscript priority not because Jerome is wrong, but it turns out that Jerome’s manuscripts were extremely sectarian, thus at that time, without the DSS, it turns out that the Augustine tradition was correct. I do not favor the Greek fathers on salvation because middle Platonism was their jam, and it flies in the face of Hebrew concepts of biblical worldview. Now if we cannot sort all this out, how in the world are most people supposed to follow this?

[@jacobsilverberg1329]

Why does 1 Cor 3:15 seem to make salvation through the flame of purgatory exclusive to believers? It appears to say that emergence from the refiner's fire is conditioned upon faith.

[@IsaacNussbaum]

I read that passage in context, Jacob. To my eyes it does not appear to be a refining fire. I don't see any attempt here to change/improve/purify anybody.

[@jacobsilverberg1329]

@@IsaacNussbaum The passage is often cited to show how we are saved by faith apart from works, apart from our sinful conduct. An illustration would be of a believer who laid the foundation of Christ and was subsequently persuaded by Bart Ehrman. Going further, this same man became a militant activist of atheism. Owing to eternal security his works are burned and the heart's sinful inclination refined. How else could he be saved?

[@IsaacNussbaum]

@@jacobsilverberg1329 But that is just it, isn't it? Works have nothing to do with salvation. The subjects of that passage are fully saved (i.e. inheritors of eternal life on Earth). The only question on the table is the nature/magnitude of their reward.

[@jacobsilverberg1329]

@@IsaacNussbaum Correct, the text deals with the saved. It shows that those who do not abide in Christ, but are sealed for the day of redemption suffer chastisement. That is expressed as the wayward man escaping through the flame. I expect many a believer will experience the purge since nothing confines the citation to apostasy or grave sin. So, how is this refinement by fire distinguished from Rev 20:15 since both believer and unbeliever enter the same crucible? Paul has only the believer escaping through that flame in this passage.

[@IsaacNussbaum]

@@jacobsilverberg1329 I am having trouble following your train of thought, Jacob. Verse 15 appears below and I don't see any reference to "chastisement" at all. ✴ _12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- 13e ach one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire._ (ESV)

[@learneternal-english3417]

If you're protestant but not calvinist this is really the only logical position you can hold. But I have great news Jesus did give us universal salvation through the Catholic (greek katholikos literally "Universal") Church.

[@deanfloyd8931]

Adam as our Federal Head is the source of sin and separation from God for all of mankind. Adam's punishment was never said to be conscience and eternal. Only those who had nothing to do with the fall of mankind have that as a possibility, and that's said to be judgment from a true and faithful loving God....I guess we need to be on the other side of eternity to see the love in that.

[@deanfloyd8931]

@chriscuomo9334You missed the point in the passage, Eve signed thru deception, but Adam willfully. "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

[@deanfloyd8931]

@chriscuomo9334 Women aren't ever the head over man....PERIOD

[@bignoob1790]

First, Cs Lewis said the gates of hell are locked from the inside

[@nikokapanen82]

But that applies only to Hades, after Hades comes the lake of fire and the lake of fire is God's wrath. There are dozens of verses found in the Bible warning about the coming wrath of God.

[@stephengorman1025]

​@@nikokapanen82Yes but God's wrath is not like Man's wrath. God's wrath produces punishment which is restorative (kolasis). Man's wrath results in retributive punishment (timoria). God is indeed a consuming fire which reedeems Mankind and destroys Sin and Death. Grace and Peace.

[@dutchmcgee101]

The lake of fire is a mistranslation, it's a crucible for refinement. Total Victory of Christ has a good series on his channel about the lake of fire.

[@nikokapanen82]

@@stephengorman1025 Yes, agreed.

[@bignoob1790]

@nikokapanen82 As a Christian, I have trials and tribulations not the wrath of God,

[@tudorstancut9332]

Orthodox and Universalist are mutually exclusive terms.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Did you watch the video?

[@johndalton1043]

Let's put that to the test. Here are two simple positions. 1) God is love 2) God is all-powerful These are standard Orthodox positions. Some Christians believe God is all loving. He loves all and desires to save all. In fact, God desires for all mankind to come to repentance. Sadly, they believe man has free will that supercedes God's desire. Therefore they believe the end result is annihilation or eternal hell. Other Christians believe God is just the opposite. They believe God is all powerful, but not all loving. He made man as vessels or wrath, etc. He's a just God, etc. The only theology synonymous with both positions 1 and 2 is ultimate reconciliation. God loves His creation. He desires for man to come to repentance. Nothing can thwart God's desire. He does as He pleases. Every knee will bow and tongue confess. I mean, you would have to completely redefine "love" to conclude annihilation or ECT. God loves you so much He lets you choose a fate that involves eternal torture or to be eviscerated? Seriously? Anyway, CU is the only view of eschatology that does not violate either of Orthodox positions 1 or 2.

[@naikhanomtom7552]

So Saint Gregory of Nyssa, the 'Father of Fathers' was not Orthodox?

[@johndalton1043]

@@naikhanomtom7552 Gregory of Nyssa was one of the final editors of the Nicene Creed. It doesn't get any more orthodox than that.

[@naikhanomtom7552]

@@johndalton1043 exactly. He was a universalist. If he didn't understand the faith then none of us have a prayer.

[@glenclary3231]

Well done

[@profitglen]

Sorry, can't get on-board with a literal hell where God tortures/torments/punishes anyone for period of time. For me, that would make him a monster. I do appreciate your channel though. I do believe that Universalism is closest to the overall message of the Bible.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for the comment! You may have already seen the video where I talked about this, but I think hell is going to be an extreme form of what a recluse might feel if, after years in total darkness, they found themselves exposed fully to the light of the sun on a midsummer day. They would hate it - it might even hurt - but it would be the best thing for them. In the next life, there will be no veil separating us from God. Revelation 14 even describes the suffering that sinners will experience as “in the presence of the Lamb (Christ).” His light is healing but that doesn’t make it comfortable. If we conform ourselves to it now, we have nothing to fear. But if we reject him now, we still can’t avoid him later. How long will we need to endure the brilliance of his presence before we will be able to tolerate it, much less enjoy it or see it for what it is - his love. Thanks again!

[@MoraleIsHigh]

So is a judge who sentences a bank robber to jail a monster? Enacting justice does not make one a monster, unless you look at it from the viewpoint of the robber.

[@profitglen]

@@MoraleIsHigh Thanks for the engagement! Well, the current judicial system, with its for-profit-prisons, is an evil system. It puts profits over true reform and restoration, instead its punitive, revengeful and retalitory, along with making human beings live in horrible conditions while treating them like they are animals. And other than money... why is it set up like this? Because people believe God is cruel as well. Anywho, back to God. Perhaps there is a period of corrective pruning that purifies and restores for many in the next age, but nothing like is taught by The Church.

[@abford03]

2 Peter 3:15b-16 “as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” If untaught and unstable people twist h the Scriptures to their destruction we have to be very careful about our interpretation. So why should I trust your interpretation that was consistently condemned by the very Church through which you even have the Scriptures to misinterpret in the first place? God bless you.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

@@abford03 Great question! I asked myself this for many years before talking much about my views at all. One thing I came to realize is that it’s just not true that the doctrine that all will be saved has not been “consistently condemned” by the church. In the first 500 years of church history, it was a widespread (if not dominant) view. And the circumstances surrounding its formal rejection raise more questions than answers. Of course, there’s a lot to unpack on all of this. Thanks for commenting!

[@abford03]

@@orthodoxuniversalist edit: just wanted to thank you before unpacking your comment for your respectful and fair response. Something being widespread or the dominant belief isn’t the same as it being the truth. For example, Roman Catholicism is the largest Christian religion in the world, that doesn’t make them true. Likewise, Arianism at one point was the majority belief of people in Christendom, that doesn’t make Arianism true. When we talk about what was and wasn’t accepted by the Church, this is in reference to dogma/doctrine. For example we see in Acts how the Church mediates truth through councils specifically the council of Jerusalem in this instance (Acts 15). Thus, it follows that the way the Church would be consistently led by the Holy Spirit into all truth (Matthew 18:20, John 14:26, John 16:13) would be through a councillor format . This is what we see at the Ecumenical councils and various local synods throughout the first 1,000 years. These councils don’t develop doctrine or dogma, but rather affirm the faith that was once for all delivered to the Saints (Jude 1:3) because just as Christ is the same “yesterday, today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8) so to must His body also be as the Church is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) it can’t change and develop but rather affirm that which was already taught (2 Thessalonians 2:15). So when the councils eventually dogmatise the condemnation of universalism through Origen, this is them making clear what the Apostles passed down by word of mouth and written epistle (2 Thessalonians 2:15) God bless you, peace be with you my friend.

[@YoshiBlad3]

The same ‘Church’ that claims Christ fails in his mission? The ones who rule through fear and division and self-righteous browbeating? The ones who burned people at the stake? They’re laughable, and detestable spiritual terrorists.

[@BardouSia]

Organism was da first "ism" in da world. - 🚬🗿🍷Son of God. There's billions of Truths but only one reality. ☄️🌠🌌♾️ Also me. ! I want to share something i have thinking alot About 😅: I have always enjoyed drawing. That's my thing. I always have the drawing with me. I will give 3 examples: 1. When I'm out among others in everyday life, I can sit and make ill-conceived doodles in the corner of my notebooks while listening to the teacher at school. I can do both illegal and legal graffiti with my friends and draw with chalk on the ground. 2. At home alone, I can immerse myself when I draw. It is more intense and I draw what I want. Very meditative. And more well thought out and bolder drawings. Works. 3. Then I also go to drawing school. There I learn new skills and drawing skills. I'm simply getting better at drawing. Something that I learn to draw is not my style and does not suit my line. And some drawing techniques I never learn. These are 3 examples of me and drawing and my relationship with drawing and how I practice drawing. I will compare the drawing to God. My relationship with drawing and my relationship with God: 1: (Is how I use God out among others in everyday life. = graffiti, chalk on the pavement and doodles in a notebook) 2: How I use god (god = drawing) at home. 3: When I go to church. (church=drawing school) I dont know if it makes sense .. 😂😅 just some thought I'm still working on finding a language for it. Damn Babylon shizzle dizzle wizzle

[@BardouSia]

Heres more of my thoughts 😅: Hell is a state both physical and psychological. A scenario on the Earth as a result describes a reality as a consequence of this. It is the perception of reality and the consequence of this. The same with the kingdom of God. Jesus was actually about panentheism but people around him ofc made a monotheistic religion out of hes teachings. The Nicene Narrative is good fan culture. But Freethinking is the real deal. Jesus sets us free from religion. Ofc Christianity is now a religion but Real Christianity is a relationship. Gods Kingdom is about love. Devils Kingdom is about money. Dont make/earn/serve money. Make/earn/serve love. Amen

[@DemajeK]

8:05

[@TruthfromBibleMinistry]

12:05. Still waiting for the bible chapters and verses to describe universalism. You are in great error

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for the comment! Well, let’s just put a couple together and see what we come up with. In Romans 10:9, Paul says, “If you CONFESS with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” And Philippians 2:11 says, “and every tongue will CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” We’re told that confession means something totally different in Phil 2:11 than it does in Rom and 10:9. But it doesn’t. We’re just told this because universalism doesn’t fit the modern, theological narrative. But there are so many more verses that, at face value, demonstrate universal salvation. We’ve just believed the idea that we can’t embrace what they seem to plainly say. Thanks again!

[@TruthfromBibleMinistry]

@orthodoxuniversalist Phillipians 2:10-11 is not a singular event and the world bow is not to be taken wholly literal. Everything in nature alive or dead is subject to Christ. Besides Psalm 37:20 KJV [20] But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. John 3:16 KJV [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Those who believe have everlasting life, the others perish. John 3:36 KJV [36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The wrath of God abideth on the unbelieving one.

[@peterheroux8239]

Interesting thoughts. However, when you rely on others interpretation of scripture instead of the Bible itself with the awareness and the knowledge that the Lord Jesus sent us His HOLY Spirit to teach, guide and understand ALL truth (John 16:13 & 1 John 2:27) through His Word and not men's limited understanding, because you will ll be left with a thousand different views. I've come to understand that I will probably never know fully how God saves, judges and rewards His children and I can live with knowing enough of His love to accept my limited knowledge.

[@orthodoxuniversalist]

Thanks for commenting! Sounds like you’ve made a sound, smart decision. Thanks for sharing! I absolutely agree that we need to trust in the Spirit’s guidance. But I think we have to filter everything we think of as the Spirit’s guidance through scripture. While I definitely quote a lot of people, there’s nothing that I defend on the channel that I don’t base on scripture. I really do appreciate your take. Thanks again for sharing!

[@BramptonAnglican]

Great video. Anglican myself. Love learning about other denominations.

[@Tiredhike]

Anglican here as well. God Bless

[@Freed98]

Bro everyone believes something it’s wild

[@TheWhyisthatso]

The Bible teaches REINCARNATION.......see Job 33 : 29-30 for example . Jesus taught reincarnation.....this is easily proven in the New Testament scriptures . Judaism still teaches reincarnation to this day . The first true "church" taught reincarnation until the false Roman Church (antichrist) outlawed the teaching and removed scriptures at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD . The "lake of fire" or the "second death" in Revelation is the process and cycle of reincarnation . "Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" ( Mark 9 : 44, 46, 48 ) The "worm" is the maggot that consumes the dead body after death and the "fire" is the trials, pain and suffering of this world that "refines" and perfects (matures) the "spirit" that we really are . This process is the result of our own "carnal minds" ( also called the "serpent", the "devil" and "Satan" ). Also called "karma" or the law of cause and consequences that governs this physical reality (world) . "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows that shall he also reap ." ( Galatians 6:7 ) The Apostle Paul called this process "the law of sin and death" ( karma and reincarnation ) that we need to be freed from in Romans 8:2 .......which is what the death of Christ did when he paid our "sin debt" . But only if we deny our "self" and "crucify" or put to death our "flesh" (carnal mind) and "follow Him" as He commanded . "That old serpent called the devil and Satan (man's own carnal mind) that DECEIVES the whole world ." ( Revelation 12:9 )

[@hiruzensarutobi9771]

Get off the weeed

[@johndalton1043]

That's an interesting concept. I know Judaism believes in Gehinnom where they believe no soul is ever lost to God. They believe in reincarnation as well. I have come to view the Lake of Fire (aka second death) as God. God is an all consuming fire. Burning bush. Pillar of fire. Everyone will be salted with fire. It seems to me the Lake of Fire is describing a refinement process like gold refinement (touchstone, sulfur, brimstone, etc). Sulfur added to gold collects as sulfides that float to the top The dross or impurities are drained refining the gold. As far as eschatology, I follow 1 Corinthians 15 where all will subject to Christ, then Christ will subject to the Father, so that God may be all in all.

[@billromansky9716]

Check out us Catholics, my friend, we have it all.

[@justchilling704]

Funny enough I spoke with a few Catholics who claimed you cannot be a convinced universal

[@tommywarren4633]

The place you're talking about for restoration is not Hell, the lake (pool) off pur, it is the same that you read of in 1st Corinthians chapter 3 11 through 15, and the true scripture of Matthew 2546, and they shall go away into age abiding correction, it is the word kolazo, meaning to lop, or prune back as a tree to produce more fruit. The same as Revelations 2010, there they will be interrogated, examined, the devil that deceived them was thrown into The crucible where the beast and the false prophets are also they will be interrogated day and night until the age of the great age Revelations 2010, see all those true Greek scriptures are saying the same thing!!

[@BlessedCitizen101]

I looked into Universalism for a little bit, was very interesting. Then I learned that Biblical UNITARIANISM was better suiting in my honest opinion when scripture was laid out.

[@DavidGuess-uq1ue]

I attended a southern Baptist church also and I believe all will eventually be saved.

[@mattr.1887]

Do you still attend it?

[@DavidGuess-uq1ue]

@@mattr.1887 yes because my whole family goes to it even my wife I told her I would like to go to a grace church but they say no because they believe in eternal conscious torment and rapture.

[@mattr.1887]

Do you normally just keep it to yourself? I would imagine it must be weird at times. I have massive respect for you regardless.

[@DavidGuess-uq1ue]

@mattr.1887 My family knows, and they say I'm twisting the Scriptures or adding to it.

[@BardouSia]

Ty 4 sharing ur opinion and faith! Great video❤ Bless u! 🙏 One Love. Amen.

[@bighead1765]

You read a lot of books. It may help to ask God with a sincere heart what Church is his true church and ask him for strength to make a path for you to get there.

[@justchilling704]

What makes you think the church is some institution?

[@bighead1765]

@@justchilling704 That’s true but if you ask God with a sincere heart you will be told if such an institution exists.

[@bighead1765]

@@justchilling704 I understand that the body of believers probably does extend outside a defined church at this time.

[@YoshiBlad3]

The true ‘church’ is where any two (or more) are gathered in his name. :]

[@kevinrombouts3027]

I am totally with you and for the same reasons. I live your channel and the way in which you go about your work for it.

[@ApatiEktetheimenos]

ONE QUESTION. Is Jesus Holy God? Many Unitarian Universalists see Jesus as a moral exemplar who personified acceptance, compassion, and inclusion, although they do not recognize him as a God.

[@YoshiBlad3]

You’re confusing Universal Reconciliation (a Christian tradition) with religious ‘Pluralism’. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, we just happen to believe he has accomplished what he came for. :]

[@ApatiEktetheimenos]

@@YoshiBlad3 Hi Yoshi. I too, believe Jesus came and accomplished the will of His Father. No argument!! My Lord is the Truth and He is LIFE! But my question was, do "unitarians" believe Jesus was Eternal God in the Flesh, or not? He was, but do THEY believe that??

[@YoshiBlad3]

@@ApatiEktetheimenos They do not, at least not all of them; their problem is they’ve tried to make every single religion right, which I can appreciate the attempt at unity and peace, but is clearly not true. My major issue today is many people refuse to even consider me a Christian, even though my view stems back to the very origins of the church with evidence as far as the first and second centuries. They call me a heretic, even though, by all definition, Catholicism and by extension Protestantism are both heresies as well. I’m not out here to call specific people that, only to prove far too few listen to Christ and instead listen to the modern day religious elite.

[@YoshiBlad3]

@@ApatiEktetheimenos Unitarians are a weird group. Some of them are ‘Christians’ but they seem to forget that Jesus IS the Way. They make the mistake of thinking Jesus is one of many ‘Ways’ instead of truth of there being many ‘Ways to Jesus’.

[@ApatiEktetheimenos]

@@YoshiBlad3 Interstinging Info, Youshi. So in other words, if they think there is another way OTHER than Jesus, they are not "Christians" at all! If you can't believe Him when He said NOBODY comes to the Father but by Him, then you can't BE a Christian. Seems to me a person is a Unitarian or some other Name, because they are groupies who do not STUDY the Word of God that is so clearly easy to comprehend!

[@Sero.Cross.C.O.C]

1. Matthew 25:46: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” 2. Revelation 14:11: “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.” 3. Mark 9:43: “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” 4. Jude 1:7: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

[@YoshiBlad3]

Sodom and Gomorrah and her ‘daughters’ are restored. And Paul and Jesus both didn’t speak english. Your ‘eternal’ gobbledygook doesn’t work on people that are well-read.

[@MoraleIsHigh]

1. For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.” - Lamentations 3:31 2. “Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough places shall become level ways, and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.” - Luke 3:5-6 3. “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” - John 12:32 4. “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” - Romans 15:18-19 5. “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.” - Romans 11:32 6. "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:22 7. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." - Colossians 1:19-20 8. “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” - 1 Timothy 4:10

[@claytonhomewood3994]

I’m glad I’m not the only one. I’m an SBC pastor

[@Pablo-p7y]

"How I Became A Convinced Christian Universalist" by the god of this world

[@danielcere2557]

There is no hell only the grave.

[@davidlyons6235]

Precisely. It's one of the reasons I reject christian universalism. I consider myself a biblical universalist. That said I do appreciate this channel.

[@JRDS214]

Godspeed bro❤❤❤❤❤

[@JohnHMarsden]

Thank you so much.

[@Brucec-x6r]

So many many views about the Bible many many different views.hmmmmm

[@greshamway4088]

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. The devil spends his time finding ways to interrupt Christian and Christianity, muddying the waters of the simple Biblical truth of Jesus Christ. There is no Biblical truth to what you are saying, that we get subsequent chances to enter eternity with God after life on earth. Austin you have been devoured by the devil and creating confusion where there is a simple Word from God, through Jesus Christ. Your message will send people to an eternity outside the presence of God. Your existence is going to take a horrible turn for the worse if you do not repent. I say this in love and I will pray for your salvation. May the grace of Christ be upon you.

[@YoshiBlad3]

‘I think you’re a terrible heretic and false preacher that will burn forever but I love you’ for 500

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Believe what you want. I do NOT see in scripture where everyone will be saved. You are denying the absolute necessity of coming to Jesus, by saying you can live your entire life denying God's only plan for salvation: Christ dying on the cross, and then you will be rehabilitated in the Lake of Fire. The bible says, "It is appointed unto man, once to die and then rehabilitation? NO! Once to die and then JUDGMENT. You will convince many that they can live their lives anyway they want, and still be saved. Are you gay? Don't worry, you WILL be saved. Are you an adulterer? Don't worry you will be saved. Are you and atheist? No problem. A little bit of time (maybe trillions of centuries) in the Lake of Fire Rehabilitation Experience and you will be ready for Heaven. Can't you see this is exactly what Satan wants us to believe: reject Christ in this life, but don't worry, you WILL STILL BE SAVED. This is as evil as any doctrine on earth. It says, "You don't need to come to Christ now, even though 2Corinthians 6:2 says, "TODAY is the day of salvation."

[@YoshiBlad3]

And you call Christ a failure and him and many others liars. Is he the savior of the world, or isn’t he? Do you love your fellow man, or do you see yourself as better than him? These questions are things you must ask yourself.

[@IsaacNussbaum]

_"...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...."_ And after judgement, what? Answer...death. ✴ _The lake of fire is the second death._ (Revelation 20: 14b; NIV)

[@YoshiBlad3]

So Jesus should have preached the shepherd stops looking for the sheep, the woman stops looking for her lost coin, the prodigal son gets his head chopped off by the father, etc, etc, etc. These types of views either make Jesus a liar or a failure as in he is NOT the Savior of the WORLD, ‘All in All’ becomes ‘All in Some’, Gods mercies DO come to an end, Love SOMETIMES fails, and countless other things. You don’t know how small, weak, petty, and evil you make the Father out to be, but you do it all the same. God is a Father, not a cosmic fucking headsman or hangman.

[@davidlyons6235]

​@@IsaacNussbaum *"The last enemy to be destroyed is death."* 1Corinthians 15:26

[@IsaacNussbaum]

@@davidlyons6235 Who will get the victory over death, and when? The redeemed of the Lord (only) will get the victory over death, at the resurrection of the dead. (1 Cor. 15: 50-58) It is then that they, and they alone, will be given immortality. (vs. 53-54)

[@AS-np3yq]

So you are an "universalist", in greek this is called "catholicos" .... catholic Weak up...

[@abford03]

This is an equivocation fallacy. To say that the same word is being used in the same context. A universalist is someone who believes that eventually all people will be saved. Catholic in the context of the nicene-constantinopolitan creed means universal in faith/theology. Another example of an equivocation fallacy would be this: a Muslim is one who submits to God (that’s quite literally what it originally meant) so everyone who follows a religion is a Muslim in this sense, but not a Muslim in the modern sense of “an adherent of Islam” I hope I’ve explained that clearly enough, God bless you my friend. Peace be with you, may the Lord guide you to His one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, holy Orthodoxy ☦️

[@michelhaineault6654]

Jesus condemn all who do not believe in him

[@stephanieplost8154]

Hi...I'm studying this myself....you are correct.... however I've been studying the words eternal punishment and the original language for eternal was for a period of time... And the original language for punishment was correction.... I don't claim to have it completely figured out but it's something worth prayerfully looking into.. Have a blessed day

[@michelhaineault6654]

@@stephanieplost8154 it all depend of the context. Eternal life is tied also to eternal punishment so it's not a simple period of time. Eternal life is always contrasting eternal death (punishment) Matt.24:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[@abford03]

@@stephanieplost8154You may be better served looking at what the original and early Christians taught about these things. As opposed to taking things outside of their context and leaning on your own understanding. This is important so we have to get it right. The best way to do that is by trusting in the interpretations of those who gave us the Scriptures in the first place. The Holy Eastern Orthodox Church. God bless you my friend, may the Lord guide you in all things

[@nmoriss]

As I understand it there's KS not a complete consensus among all the church fathers. Origen and Isaac the Syrian are 2 examples who subscribed to universalism.

[@abford03]

@@nmoriss Origen was condemned as a result of this being one of many heretical beliefs he held. St Issac well it may seem as though he’s arguing for universal salvation this doesn’t mean that it was taught in the Church. Many Church fathers were wrong about certain things. This wasn’t a damnable offence in and of itself but it becomes such when they teach these wrong views as Origen did. Now I don’t know much more than that, but considering the position of universal salvation was condemned by the Church that both Origen and St Issac were apart of it leads to the conclusion that these men were exceptions to the rule on this teaching and the standard was not a form of universalism. God bless you my friend.

[@nomadinsox8757]

It just doesn't make sense in light of a God that knows the future. If God encounters a person who he knows will never repent, then he leaving them in Hell would not remedy it and letting them into the Kingdom would only allow infinite sin. A limited life can be justified for a never repenting sinner as agift from God out of love, but anything more does no good. But if repentance is only a matter of time, then lige and Hell are one and the same, for both are merely part of the condition needed for that eventual repentance God would surely aim for. A life of half pleasure, as we now have, would be pointless if all had dalvation in their future. God would skip life and rush man towards salvation and the Kingdom. Universalism does not accord with the world we find ourselves in. The suffering of which only makes sense if it is the greatest possible good, given sin.

[@kbkyle]

@@nomadinsox8757 "It just doesn't make sense in light of a God that knows the future" Would it be fair for me to say the same but to apply that to God knowing that the person would end up in Hell from before even creating him..? That also doesn't make sense..

[@nomadinsox8757]

@@kbkyle I would argue it does make sense if God also loves us. For if he loves us and he sees that he can gift us a limited life and that we would prefer that life even if it came with Hell and then the Lake of Fire which is oblivion afterwards, he would of course do it. I think your point only works if Hell is eternal, which it is biblically not.

[@kbkyle]

@@nomadinsox8757 Yes but it still doesn't explain the fact that, God, being omnipresent, created something from the beginning in His image, which he first loved, but at the same time knowing that the love would change because that person will end up in Hell and be 'destroyed', even though he was Gods personal creation which he did "love" but then end ups not loving it. You could even say He never actually loved him, because God IS eternal, and time is still time in eternity, and eternity then is the same as eternity later.

[@nomadinsox8757]

@kbkyle At no point does God's love change. God loves those in Hell and aches that they had chosen otherwise. But he simply cannot permit eternal life for a sinner, thus creating eternal sin, no matter how much he loves them. My parents lived me but they still did not tolerate me hitting my brothers forever. Their love in no way deminished for me even as they sent me to my room or spanked me. Hell is just the final version of that. If a person would do evil forever, God must limit their life. But he still loves them and wants to give them life.

[@AlbanianDude98]

@@nomadinsox8757 What exactly do you mean by limit their life? And I read in your comment that a life of "half-pleasure" which we have today is pointless if all are to be saved eventually, but the thing is, if universalism is true, maybe that "eventually" is on a different time-frame for different people? And also I don't see how if universal salvation is true it would mean that this life is therefore pointless because even with a life of sin, there is a learning and training of the virtues in this life which is worthwhile.

[@heteroGMRVet]

“How I became a heretic”

[@lukefreeman3383]

💯

[@naikhanomtom7552]

If universalism is wrong then Saint Gregory and Saint Maximos both subscribe to a metaphysical view that makes absolutely no sense. If that's the case...why do we use their metaphysics to convert philosopher's etc?

[@YoshiBlad3]

Catholics and Protestants are heretics too. What exactly your point? That we should listen to men rather than Christ?

[@SibleySteve]

We can cherry pick our favorite quotes in the debates between every faction of church history, especially Alexandria vs Antioch or Latin vs Greek. My problem with a lot of theological method is the hobby ization of our favorite factions. I really like Augustus’s argument against Jerome on the issue of manuscript priority not because Jerome is wrong, but it turns out that Jerome’s manuscripts were extremely sectarian, thus at that time, without the DSS, it turns out that the Augustine tradition was correct. I do not favor the Greek fathers on salvation because middle Platonism was their jam, and it flies in the face of Hebrew concepts of biblical worldview. Now if we cannot sort all this out, how in the world are most people supposed to follow this?