How Improved BCP Could Save Early 7.62 NATO

[@igornikitovitchnosorog874]

they should reduce the price of the vpo hunter to be competitive with the sks, so early players can choose between a 20 mag sks or a 10 mag hunter, which would have a bit more punch but less capacity. Right now it's totally useless

[@05Rm250RideAlong]

Great logic

[@nornornornor9204]

Exactly, rn you can op sks with a pso and ps and have something very cheap and effective, and just better than bcp due to all this

[@leopoldo3884]

I agree, hunter isnt terribly priced and its pretty available from scavs and barter so idc its almost fine as it is

[@igornikitovitchnosorog874]

@@nornornornor9204 in anyway, all those balancing leads to the ideal stat, in my view: all guns are useful at some point. best way of dealing with meta is making every gun meta in his own way

[@Squee7e]

I totally agree. The vpo 101 should cost more like 35k. I mean it has substantial recoil and you can't really mod it so this would only be fair. Alternatively a barter for two horse figurines would also be a great addition. Those can be found quite easily and are only expensive early on when everyone wants to have docs cases for each map.

[@mrterkyman]

Thank you Basedbeef. These videos are always great. Most people just repeat the raw changes (which is fine! Not everyone is plugged into twitter or other socials so guys spreading the news is good!) but you delve into the implications and stats of the changes which make them more meaningful. Appreciate you!

[@Gigabeef]

Thanks!

[@betajosh]

Seeing your probability breakdown of pen vs no pen was a real eye opener, thank you for including this!

[@overlookedundead8711]

Honestly it seemed like such an oversight that the Soft tip bullet had better pen than the FMJ one, so good they changed it! But i still think M80 should be moved down a bit, or maybe there could be something intermediary unlocked at PK3 or Jäger3 or whatever.

[@FaustTP]

I'd lower TCW SP even more, probably 27 Pen, drop BCP to 32 Pen, drop M80 to 35 Pen, M62 to 38 Pen and then introduce M62A1 at 43 Pen and M80A1 at 47 Pen. M80 and M62 really shouldn't be going through GOST 4 armor in the first place. This would also mean M80 and M62 could be dropped back to PK2/3 respectively, M62A1as PK3+Quest and M80A1 as PK4+Quest.

[@thelitmango6333]

I'm glad they nerfed the 7.62 nato guns. All I use to see is rfb and guns like it. M80 is fine where it's at.

[@overlookedundead8711]

@@thelitmango6333 But is it really a nerf? seems more like a delay to me, Once people get to PK4 or Workbench 3 they`ll be running it again.

[@n4d3m4n]

I'm so glad that 7.62x51 has become useable again! watching the once "Budget" round of M80 get pushed so far back and seeing the two 'crappy' rounds just sit there still having issues with class 3/4 armor was really depressing. I started running M700 sniper raids for the first time this wipe after this buff!

[@MsArchitectschannel]

They've just swapped the 2 rounds though? nothing has changed?

[@sulkissulking]

@@MsArchitectschannel yeah and now one of them is actually viable? You know, like what usually happens when something is changed?

[@GMan33195]

I'm glad they finally switched these rounds around. It made no sense that the soft point bullet had more pen and less damage compared to the FMJ when the whole point of a soft point bullet is expansion and increased damage to the target.

[@Xeonzs]

Regarding scopes at the end: Prism all the way baby!

[@jordanfetch4191]

This is one of my favorite changes thus far! It never made sense to me as to why the SP (Soft Point, hunting round) should have more penetration than FMJ (Full Metal Jacket); but I still used the FMJ extensively with decent results. I've been a Woods Main for 2-3 wipes now, and I have been using the VEPR Hunter almost primarily this wipe, so I'm very glad the FMJ rounds got some love . Happy hunting, mates

[@thenatnat7042]

This video and the percentage distributions is giving me flashbacks to my discrete mathematics course last semester. Good vid!

[@Turtlezzzzzzzzzz]

This is a great change. I love the 308 weapons, especially the RFB. And it’s super cheap barter makes it a fantastic mid game budget choice. High percent to three shot class 4 is great for BCP. I think that’s fairly balanced. Same pen as 7.62 PS but much more flesh damage makes sense

[@Swarm509]

With the stamina changes you also have a chance of surviving a few shots and getting to cover as well or firing back. Probably will kill most people quickly but it is a bit more "fair" to both parties.

[@fubarexress6359]

Yeah I agree. The damage is nuts. I was getting pelted with it today. It took me down to 40 HP and he didn't hit me that many times.

[@moshpit188]

The rfb is so underrated

[@fubarexress6359]

@@moshpit188 yep. I've been demolishing people with it lately.

[@Vivi_Strike]

Tried this ammo a lot and i can say its still bad for long range, even a 3 man squad was having a hard time killing me with this ammo at range even though i got hit by it many times. But after trying it out it shines most in CQB with semi/full auto guns and holo sight.

[@nekomancer4641]

Ideally M80 should still be somewhere like PK lvl 3

[@isni1946]

yeah it doesn't make much sense to unlock M62 and M80 at the same time

[@GmodFilmsTR]

it should be at lvl 3 pk and reduce pen from 41 to 39-38 so it has like 50% chance of penning lvl 4. so theres an actual reason to use m62.

[@honeypotusername]

@@isni1946 bsg just looks at what people are buying most often and then just make it less available lol

[@exemplify6593]

PK3 and a later progression quest as well. Later than cult part 1 because M80 is definitely a better round than M856A1. But not too terribly far beyond that. I think that would be a great balance.

[@isni1946]

@@honeypotusername I would be okay with a dynamic trader prices system, making the most used stuff more expensive. Maybe this isn't so much a good idea, but I would like to see them try it

[@Nohoth]

One thing people forget for fmj is it can 1 shot any limb. This means if you see someone running in the distance you csn one tap a leg to make them a sitting duck. You can't do this with 7.62 ps

[@BLEVLS]

Who isn't using painkillers at most times?

[@Nohoth]

@@BLEVLS most people are not running painkillers if you get the drop on them. Once a fight starts yea, but I'd say 90% people are not on painkillers when they first get shot.

[@laserbidet]

For a full auto 7.62x51 option (after flea) I'm going to try buying a scav FAL off the flea, repairing it, and swapping the hand guard and buttstock. The one advantage it has over the RFB is that you can attach a laser to it. The disadvantage is that you can only attach a reflex site to the handguard, which are notoriously floaty when mounted further forward on the gun. I might be insane. Who knows.

[@loblawbomb1532]

For around the same price, you can get the barter from mechanic for 8 weapon parts. When they're low enough, this may be the better option. The only real difference is the shorter barrel reduces your accuracy a bit, but 3 MOA is still smaller than a person's head at 100m.

[@TheJerkinGerken]

I'd love to see a comparison to 856A1 and also see how these rounds pen out to or over 100m. Since I leveled boltys enough now I've been running modded adars as a budget dmr but I might have to dust off the rfb and see how it feels now.

[@MayFair404]

i can also recomend the ak 545/sag it feels super good to play and if you enjoy semi auto rifles with some bp/bs or even bt it slaps

[@Nek1i]

TCW feels like the full auto round for the SA58 now imo

[@user936]

When you need to give that ceiling a little love.

[@ryanbolson23]

@@user936gotta pay that ceiling tax every now and again 😂

[@vKrash]

That's literally the first thing I did today. The outcome is not as good as I would imagine, had to hit a guy wearing TV-110 10+ times to kill, with 400damage being blocked by armor, something like that. Might need some more testing ;D

[@vKrash]

Also yeah, with SA58 recoil its point blank only, if you wish to full auto

[@user936]

@@vKrash yes but you wrecked his armour for that raid and made him extra squishy for his next run-in 📈👍🏼

[@fubarexress6359]

The next step IMO in balancing is for BSG to push out the update that contains the hit box rework. This will make loads of rounds and in turn loads of guns totally viable. It'll nerf slicks to the ground (as it should, rigs like that aren't designed for maximum protection, their for maximum movement) and give a huge buff to armor that covers all thorax and stomach/full backside. Also a lot of those full body rigs only have level 2/3 armor on the sides making them vulnerable from depending on the angle of your approach when in combat. I imagine that system is close to being done as Nakita had said recentlyish it could possibly be in patch 13. Clearly it wasn't. So I'm hoping it's in one of the in between patches from now tell .14

[@phrogchamp4207]

But then I feel like they would have to replace the function of the thorax hitbox and introduce a new vitals hit bow as slim armors like the slick are shaped as to compromise on whole thorax protection for protecting your important vitals only while giving movement, I feel if this and the armor hit boxes were added at the same time that would be best

[@fubarexress6359]

@@phrogchamp4207 who knows what their plan is I just know that the hitbox system is getting re worked and it's probably the next big change we will see.

[@CountCristo]

The trooper TCW chances are indeed very interesting - thanks for the breakdown!

[@zani661]

thank you gigabeef

[@DomeHunter24]

The scopes that also go on the compact mount taj or something are super cheap and probably my favorite in the game! You don’t usually suggest them, I even just use it with the top iron

[@SOL1DUDE]

I love this breakdown. You lay down the actual resulting behaviour so clearly. Now all that's left is me getting those consistent thorax hits... oh well...

[@SOL1DUDE]

That said. Those high damage numbers come in very clutch in "realistic" mid range scenarios where you hit limbs a couple of times. Even without a pen at the thorax, blunt damage and overflow from limbs add up quickly. Allthough an interesting analysis for me would be... when does it kill by blunting the thorax to zero and when does it kill simply by getting the overall health pool to zero. These szenarios get complicated quickly because there are so many cases to account for. But maybe there are some useful ball park to find.

[@Gigabeef]

True - yes it's nearly impossible to simulate in a sensible way :)

[@Resistenza01370]

Thanks for your work my friend, very usefull

[@Gigabeef]

Cheers!

[@j0hnicide]

"hello everyone it's gigabeath here" - auto cc

[@finalfragment8432]

thanks beef great video as allways but you forgot to take pen drop at range at 100m u need like 4-5 rounds to pen class 4 armor

[@Gigabeef]

Yeah it's not idea at range but still has good damage - not the perfect solution though

[@Rynxedo]

Thank you so much for clarifying this, I've been on the fence about running 762 since I dont have M80 yet and I didnt want to be put at a big disadvantage but this cleared the perspective. Its not perfect but it something right. #thethoughtthatcounts

[@DiiGiiTAL]

Literally just come out of a Scav raid having just absolutely crucified three Rogues with a VEPR and BCP and I had no idea why.

[@Jayowsky]

There were 15 glorious minutes yesterday where BCP was 50 pen, on accident ofc.

[@sk1789_]

This sold me on the importance of good armor. The difference between the Rat Rig and the Trooper is compelling

[@pandakilla4757]

Good armour you also have to consider debuffs, weight and armoured areas tho

[@RevanBartus]

Take a vodka shot each time he says penetration.

[@Corzappy]

I personally think that these ammo buffs are largely superficial due to the fact that pretty much all of the .308 guns have far too much recoil to actually justify spending the money to make them controllable, only to then immediately put some pretty trash ammo in them. This only really affects the DMRs since the recoil doesn’t matter as much for careful tap-firing but I feel like most people have enough random m80 or m61 lying around to fill the 2 or 3 mags you need for a DMR.

[@abcdefgabcdefg3436]

This ^. I just get 1 tapped in the thorax by m61 anyways.

[@thedofflin]

Gigabeef always sweeping in with the economic loadouts, just after I spent like 100k trying to tame an SA-58. RFB is clearly the best option.

[@mezi156]

exactly the video i was waiting on when i saw this ammo get buffed, i felt like it was good but i needed someone smarter to explain the numbers on just how good, lol

[@facelessgreen8997]

I could see it used as a filler ammo with M80 on top of the mag (5 to 15 on a 20 round mag). It would allow you to take on those Korund players and if you fail to do that in five shots the armor would be damaged enough for BCP to be effective.

[@Tman2bard]

Idk how an 8 minute vid can give me 5 ad breaks but here we are. On the actual subject tho, they really need to hand us some more 7.62x51 guns on the cheap for early wipe if they want this bullet to be comparable to 7.62x39mm

[@pokemon202668]

they did it boys, they finally made the soft point round have less pen but more dmg then the higher velocity FMJ round. This wasn't a buff, they just finally added some logic to the ammo XD

[@bigbagel1055]

Good 2 know it got a buff been staying away from using these guns just because the lack of m80 and m62 and m61.

[@user936]

I was doing this before the change 😁 BCP was always a nice all-rounder off Fence early on.

[@panther7584]

I always went with 7.62x51 if I have a gun so I can leg shot then torso/head shot if I'm from a distance

[@TheNorthingNL]

This change saves the early game RFB, I also like underloading BCP now.

[@MsArchitectschannel]

They've just swapped the 2 rounds though? nothing has changed?

[@TheNorthingNL]

@@MsArchitectschannel you said it yourself the change is they swapped the rounds. BCP does higher dmg and now has more penetration making the early game RFB better.

[@DEFELCT]

ive been using TCW SP before m80 unlock and TCW SP is really good for SA-58 FULL AUTO

[@Joosh13]

Would be nice to hear how they perform for helmets and headshots too. Am I throwing if I bolt action snipe with BCP?

[@xKalxElx]

The compact 2x32 has served me very well this wipe, too bad it’s been around 35k on average :/

[@vgccompetitiveproof8397]

M80 at ll4 doesn’t make sense when i already have 700 rounds of m61 from crafting before I gave peacekeeper 4. There’s no point in using m80 anymore

[@HappyFoxtrot]

This will help, but not much. The ammo became good, but the platform is still a problem. All early 7,62 nato guns are really unwieldy, especially vpo hunter. And by the time you get Skier 2 you most likely will be able to craft m80. I guess this makes "top loading" strat a bit more viable and scavs more scary. Witch is a good thing.

[@Swarm509]

True but I still run into a ton of TCW even from high tier players. M80 is pretty damn expensive and hurts to lose a few mags worth if you die. TCW is in that nice position of being very usable, cheap-ish, and available when you need it. I'm in a 5.56 mood this wipe but I would definetly be top loading mags if I was running semi-auto DMR's.

[@reggo2562]

THX bru

[@suntzu9693]

Buff M62 and move M80 back to Pk3. It makes 0 sense that you unlock the only viable .308 round at like level 37.

[@TheGoatLocker]

You can craft it with workbench level 2 which is level 20 mechanic lvl 2 I think.

[@suntzu9693]

@@TheGoatLocker Yeah sure lemme just go start a 10 hour craft for 80 rounds of M80 at 3500 rubles a round. No biggie.

[@es0x]

2:50 *class 3 not class 2

[@kingalbby2497]

Hey gigabeef. I want to know if the new armor changes when it comes to weight and movement debuff changes your overall rankings to armors. In a similar vain to how you did "the ultimate guide to close (X) armor". Intrested in your thoughts.

[@Gigabeef]

Bit late on my reply as I've done some guides since on the armor :)

[@kingalbby2497]

@@Gigabeef lol. Thanks for replying. Thank you for your work.

[@user-lk4lj2qq6s]

where can i find that percentage charts of how many shots in throax needed to kill??

[@Gigabeef]

Its my own calcs

[@gob7116]

Sorry but the buff wasn’t needed and SP should’ve been nerfed to have less pen at around high 20+ but have an increase in flesh damage for the simple reason that it’s a soft point. It’s made for bullet expansion and not penetration. Game balancing wise, you give a lower penetrating, higher flesh damage SP, capable of one shotting the thorax, then BCP that pens level 3 but can’t one shot a thorax. M80 being an upgrade to BCP once it’s unlocked can be the “all-around” round, which is its actual typical use anyways. It pens decently while having good flesh damage. But in no sense does both mean that they can all pen entry helmets (at least game balancing wise). Otherwise, SP is useless apart from one shot thorax. Hence, fmj should theoretically penetrate more while having a lesser probability of expansion and fragmentation. It’s simple physical ballistics. M80 isn’t even a penetrator IRL. It’s an old 50s designed round that was a simple big caliber fmj. It’s not even known to penetrate better than m855 with its steel core. Hell, m193 55gr fmj 5.56 out of a 20 inch barrel is just about, if not a better penetrator than m80 given it’s velocity.

[@ganthrithor]

The game needs a rebalance on the availability of .308 guns too IMO. The FAL is basically useless until you get mega trader levels because you can't even put an optic on it for the longest time-- let alone get a build with OK ergo. The Vepr Hunter could be a fun early-on gun if you could buy proper magazines for it, but you can't. I don't see the point of locking out the mags for the Hunter since it has poor ergo and almost zero modding potential to scale into late-game. M1A is expensive and again not really moddable until you get mega juiced and start talking about those chassis-based builds. M700 isn't available at all I don't think at trader 1? It would be nice to have starter options for .308. Having the Hunter and all its mags / mods available at trader 1 would be great. I'd personally love it if they would add the Steyr Scout to the game as a level one bolty option: five round mags, light weight, and maybe stick in a low-magnification long-eye-relief optic choice for it? (Scope could be a fun option for the SOCOM-16 / M1A as well) Would be a really cool low-level gun. Releasing the top rail for the FAL at lower trader levels would at least render the scav pickup guns useable too: a FAL with iron sights, no ergo at all, and a twelve foot barrel just isn't a super compelling option.

[@Bushcrawler]

Pen, pineapple, apple, pen! 😅😂

[@MsArchitectschannel]

They have just swapped the 2 rounds with eachother? We still have 1 high damage round that can't 1 tap thorax + tier 3 armour and 1 high pen round than can never 1 tap thorax .... why?

[@Gigabeef]

Sort of but it has high damage now rather than low damage

[@elizulie]

how do you find the kill chance scenarios charts? are they on a website and i just cant find them?

[@Gigabeef]

They're my own calcs, been working on them for a long time

[@mackenzieweninger8431]

Had a weekly this week to get 45 scav kills with a vepr hunter and this change rolled out right after I completed it :'(

[@mackenzieweninger8431]

@@Sn1zzle i mean I did it in less than 7 runs while also doing other quests. sounds like a skill issue to me

[@mackenzieweninger8431]

@@Sn1zzle damn sorry to hear about about your body weight issue

[@bigOnions]

If only the recoil of 7.62x51 guns is actually usable in full auto like the 7.62x39 guns. In most cases, 7.62x51 guns have close to double the amount of recoil.

[@elmar4898]

Gigabeef

[@deurikin2466]

My FAL us useable against the chads. FEAR ME

[@SlavaEremenko]

Great video, I appreciate the math, I really do, but we can probably stop wasting time on discussing level 3 armor, especially 5 weeks into the wipe.

[@Gigabeef]

Most people are still low level, you'd be surprised

[@leek5682]

I headshot someone with a ulach yesterday with bcp and it tanked the damage then he killed me

[@kylerock4227]

What is he using to get the percent chance of killing at each shot?

[@guywithashirton]

Math

[@Gigabeef]

Ya my own calcs, been working on them for a while

[@PartTime13adass]

*Loads RFB with malicious intent.

[@pianomirror4833]

bruh I just bought so much tcw :(

[@KornelKK13]

Imagine nerfing bpc fmj, wtf did they make it no longer one shot to the chest???

[@Gigabeef]

Would only do that through Class 2 or lower anyway before so hardly mattered

[@KornelKK13]

@@Gigabeef i was used to onetap zhuk scavs with this ammo and it was the only reason to use sa58 over other guns, now its just another overpriced ak basically

[@7.5bits77]

dang

[@Vorusen]

Im half a level away from peacekeeper lv4... I'll be DAMNED if I use anything other than m80 at minimum at this point lol

[@kartoshka5134]

3rd>

[@cuddlybearcx]

lmao leg meta sr25???? lets go

[@T_gin]

I feel like your vids should be you in a lab coat in front of a whiteboard, so educational. Thank you!

[@Gigabeef]

Haha yes!

[@chumacabra928]

[@mezmerya5130]

it cant. scar-h too expensive, mdr pk4 with m80. sniping or semi with such bad round... no thanks

[@raastin9769]

We have passed the early wipe, this ammo is more or less useless in semiautoweapons. If you are low level and cant buy ps 7.62x39 then its usable other wise i would recommend just unmodded akm with ps. Just imagine getting thru lvl 4 helmet with that from range, just wwwww with akm trust me bro

[@tpri8395]

first=

[@despondentanura6939]

not having m80 is a skill issue

[@HasxVoiks]

These ammo’s are both terrible, takes around 11-13 shots to take out an active player

[@Tom-2142]

If you’re missing most of your shots then yes.

[@HasxVoiks]

@@Tom-2142 that's obviously hits. Then again, giga chads like you cant just aim for the head everytime now

[@Lightrunnerr]

Problem still is semi-auto guns are terrible

[@Jason-er8mf]

45 ACP AP has been removed from PK LL4

[@pwnnr13]

People still using internet explorer eh

[@Jason-er8mf]

@@pwnnr13 what ?

[@jerkfck]

The fact that they lock good ammo behind levels and also the flea market gets pushed in level each wipe, coupled with the fact they don't mark the exits this game is only for sweaty nerds that want to live on the game. This game would be ten times the game and have ten times the pop if they just let us be able to buy gear from the Flea, have access to real bullets and guns and be able to have the exits way pointed. These three simple changes would make this game probably the best FPS out there right now. But Nikkita wants "realism" At least they listened to Veritas and made the gun play a bit better from what I hear. Baby steps.

[@NaderinZim]

Yeah, the ammo grind is the worse aspect of the game, you need to grind these ridiculous tasks that noone enjoys so you can reliably kill other players, a very simple and effective way to fix it is for Traders to unlock higher levels just by selling things to them and leveling up, tasks absolutely killed my enjoyment of the game this wipe, tried to do Early Tasks on Customs, night raid at 5AM on a Tuesday, died 8 times in a row by people camping both dorms key, Truck and the cabin for Skiers tasks, will only come back when Nikita makes those "side quests" instead of a necessity to be able to compete with other players.