How Kirby and the Forgotten Land Succeeds Where Star Allies Fails

Kirby and the Forgotten Land has quickly become one of the high points of the series, in my opinion. All the stranger considering how mediocre Star Allies was. Today we contrast the two games to see why Kirby and the Forgotten Land worked where Star Allies Failed.
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Edited by Maggie Bennett
0:00 Introduction
0:59 Lost on a Straight Road
4:35 I Don't Need Super Strength for My Desk Job
6:39 In The Land of The Bots, The Human Player is Bored
9:08 A Bachelor's Minivan
10:46 Location, Location, Location
11:39 Why Can't I Play With My Friends?

[@lephusian]

This is an excellent explanation of how removing the formula doesn't automatically improve a game. Perhaps formulas come to be because they work.

[@JayStack5]

While I do like Forgotten Land more than Star Allies, I feel Star Allies has been getting the short end of the stick recently. I thought Star Allies was a blast, especially after all the additional characters were added. Why it played it a bit safe, I didn’t find it that bad of a thing, since it’s the first one to be on console in awhile.

[@AmericanCatlover2.0]

I agree, love star allies, love forgotten land even more.

[@spooderman6312]

Theres another issue with what nintendo is doing: selling an average to incomplete game and giving out free dlc. (Mario sports games, nintendo switch sports and star allies) Star allies was fine but the fact that DLC was needed to get more people engaged was telling of how basic the base game actually was On the other hand, forgotten land is polished and any DLC, while a welcome inclusion, wouldn't take away from the experience.

[@stijngryp2589]

@@spooderman6312 you think DLC to a game like Star Allies takes away expierence? even though they practically added a epilouge? and added many caracters loved by fans? and because those caracters where added they also added them to Quest Star WITH COMPLETY REMAKED LEVELS from the games they come from? Kirby Star Allies is the one game where i don't see this argument in. Yes the game is simplyfied but thats because of the multiplayer and i think thats the main reason people think its rushed (unless you can educate your reason to me) its the same problem with New Super Mario Bros Wii really

[@spooderman6312]

@@stijngryp2589 no I'm saying thzt the simple fact that you have a better gameplay expiration with DLC and not how HAL originally released the game makes it feel like nintendo rushed it out to have something to release that month

[@stijngryp2589]

@@spooderman6312 that is like so not true because not only is all of it pretty one tone its also an update. which means you don't go to the E-shop to get it if you have Internet on your Switch you get the update automatically please don't DLC when you're talking about update's its very misleading and makes it sound worse than it actualy is

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I feel like the solution to the single player vs multi player dilemma we have within the past two games would be to look at Kirby and the amazing Mirror. It’s about the right balance of linear / open world, the multiplayer is beneficial but doesn’t harm the single player mode, and the collectibles are placed in good places to encourage exploring.

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

Never played multiplayer in it, but I'm always in favor of Kirby games being more like The Amazing Mirror.

[@tricmagic]

@@CMeeCraftGaming It's quite amazing.

[@BlueToadFan913]

@@tricmagic 🥁pu-dun tunk 🥁

[@charlestetreault739]

Kirby Star Allies, of all my Switch games, has the most hours played. Most of those hours were spent playing the Ultimate Choice or Guest Star Allies with as little bot assistance as possible. As much as I enjoy various aspects (said side modes, the Dream Friends, etc.) of the game, that's quite telling of how weak the core of Star Allies is.

[@Videospiel-Man5730]

It is Weak But its a Blast in Multiplayer!

[@charlestetreault739]

@@Videospiel-Man5730 Very true, the multi-player is pretty fun Now if only I had actual friends to play multiplayer. . .

[@gachalifetoonstudios1377]

Star allies is at it's strongest in multiplayer while in forgotten land it's kinda it's weakest aspect

[@prosylan6368]

@@gachalifetoonstudios1377 funny how star allies's strong point is forgotten lands weak point and forgotten lands strong point is star allies weak point

[@gachalifetoonstudios1377]

It'd be cool to see the waddle dee use a hat power rather than just a spear

[@siyahseeker]

Here's one thing: Forgotten Land doesn't get repetitive. I can't think of a single dull moment in the game...except that tilt minigame, but that's optional. Star Allies got old pretty quickly, especially in the Guest Star Allies mode, where, if you're not playing as one of the Dream Friends that isn't Dedede, Meta Knight, or Bandana Waddle Dee, you play the exact same level over and over again but with different characters. If EVERY character had a different level here and there unique to their original game (like the Dream Friends), then it would be both ultimate fanservice, and completely fresh. For example: Poppy Bros. Jr can have part of Green Greens from Kirby's Dream Land in one section. Burning Leo could have part of Candy Mountain from Kirby Super Star. These are just places where you first see them in their first appearances. Something like that.

[@prosylan6368]

I would agree with you about forgotten land levels not getting old every level I was excited to find out what's next and every level is fun I don't hate a single one

[@craftingtales2790]

GO. TO… HELL! STRAIGHT THERE! TO THE TORTURE CHAMBER!! ALL THE WAY DOWN!!!

[@Waddle_Dee_With_Internet]

Well I you watch other gameplays of dream friends, they do have the same level but different layouts. Take Adeleine and Ribbon for example. They added some spikes on top and bottom to pass.

[@siyahseeker]

@@Waddle_Dee_With_Internet I meant for the normal friends, not just the Dream Friends.

[@Snsy]

7:59 you can actually press ZR + Y to get rid of allies without losing your copy ability, not to mention it's also much quicker to do it that way.

[@MatterMorph]

This is true. Although I don’t believe the game ever tells the player this information similarly to how Forgotten Land never mentions the dodge mechanics. Very odd to omit important info like this from the player.

[@AlexSpy3DS]

:O

[@terretro3623]

@@MatterMorph Might be because you don’t really need them. Might also be why in Return to Dreamland, Cookie Country stage 1 doesn’t teach you how to jump without pausing and checking the moveset (although you are taught to fly later and you don’t need that), while many other Kirby games do (Triple Death in particular. It’s a good game, just don’t want to try without jumping). They are absolute godsends though

[@PoyoDreamer]

@@MatterMorph they do tell, that’s how I found it out. And dodging is a choice for the entire game.

[@idunno_]

@@MatterMorph Star Allies does tell you about that in one of the tips in loading screens

[@peco595]

I haven't watched fully yet, but I stick by the idea that Star Allies was so "by the book" and thus disappointing to people because it was supposed to be a combination anniversary type game and finale to what the series was up to that point. It was supposed to bring old fans and new together for one last 2D romp before the new generation of Kirby began, so they wanted it to play fairly standard so that everyone could enjoy it together whether they're fans of the Return Era or the Dreamland Era or anywhere in between

[@Videospiel-Man5730]

Yep Many People overlook that fact! And the ZR/Y Delete Button for the Partners!

[@castform7]

I feel like that's part of the problem for me. Star Allies doesn't feel like a finale game wise. Anniversary wise, oh hell yes this is truly a finale to an era if I ever saw one. Gameplay wise though it just has a lot of aspects that make it fall flat compared to prior entries.

[@peco595]

@@castform7 Yeah, I think gameplay wise they poured most of the effort into the bosses and extra modes Like, Void Termina definitely feels like a finale even if the rest of the game doesn't

[@peco595]

@Galactic Knightmare It doesn't excuse it necessarily, but it is a reason why it's not up to modern standards or classic standards, it's a mixture of both and with multiplayer thrown in as well The story mode definitely not interesting, but I did enjoy the Heroes In Another Dimension mode and the two hardest arena modes. I just wish the arena was more singleplayer friendly because trying to run no friends miserable.

[@ciy_ro]

The reason they made the friends actually hurt the bosses was because it's supposed to feel like your amassing a crew of friends and allies to take down the enemies. It also allows those who aren't great at games (one of kirby's biggest audiences) to feel like they're commanding an army and nothing stands a chance to them.

[@MintManicus]

"Star Allies is so focused on multiplayer it ruins the singleplayer" HOLY SHIT SOMBODY GETS IT literally I was replaying the game recently and that dawned on me

[@QJrocks]

While I quite enjoyed Star Allies and had no issues with collecting puzzle pieces for the sake of collecting them (never going to argue with having more of a game I like), the point about elemental abilities being limited really was quite unfortunate. I never ended up using abilities I liked (such as Ice and Parasol), just because they weren't able to get those abilities, and their hold-up replacements were either nonexistent or extremely underwhelming. Any time I left a puzzle room using one of those, I swapped it out basically the first chance I got. Though, the same thing happened in Forgotten Land, where I found myself avoiding using abilities that weren't as evolved as the rest. While some evolved abilities are sidegrades, most of them are just straight upgrades to the original. Every time there was a power-up selection, I always picked one that was more evolved for better damage, and that stuck around until the final world when all of the abilities were finally tied in evolution. Forgotten Land definitely had the better approach and I rarely felt the need to immediately switch my copy abilities after a puzzle room, but I really hope the next Kirby goes back to just having basic, unchangeable abilities. Having to wait up to 80% of the game (why did they put Blizzard Ice so far back?) for an ability to become viable just wasn't all that great for me, and I'd much prefer to have them usable for the entire game.

[@stijngryp2589]

i agree with you but Forgotten Land (talking about the main game) isn't that hard to the point where dealing more damage gives a differents heck if anything i'd say use the less evolved abilety's because then you get to fight longer (i think the bosses/minibosses are a +)

[@Murr248]

REALLY disagree with that last bit. an ability doesn’t need to be fully evolved to make it more viable. I enjoy using Frosty Ice far more over Blizzard because I think the design is better and its more fun to use the Snowmen as a shield (This can be done with Blizzard Ice, but its much harder because of it’s range), I’ve also used Noble ranger over Space, Toy Hammer over both Wild and Masked, and Normal Sword over Gigant. You aren’t really required to use evolved abilities besides one of the missions when fighting Forgo Dedede, and the post game lets you power up an ability you want if you want your favorites to become naturally stronger. If this were like Pokemon, where you HAD to evolve you Pokemon and couldn’t “devolve” them, or evolved abilities were absolutely required, then I’d agree on this point but this game allows for much more variety with it’s abilities

[@QJrocks]

@@Murr248 That's definitely fair, and the game is forgiving enough where you can choose to stick with a certain ability if you like its aesthetics better (I stuck with Gigant Sword the whole game because of this). "Can you beat Forgotten Land without evolving abilities?" wouldn't be a very interesting challenge video, but regardless there is still a pretty noticeable difference in how much evolutions can speed up a fight. Blizzard Ice can deal insane amounts of damage, being able to take down bosses from full health in the span of a Switch video recording, while regular and frosty ice just can't keep up in that regard. It's a similar thing with Noble Ranger, funnily enough. I also took that the whole game because I thought it was more fun to use than the alternatives, but towards the endgame even its fully charged shots were doing scratch damage to bosses, and I ended up just dropping it for better fully-evolved abilities (Blizzard Ice, Dragon Fire, etc) I haven't messed around with post-game ability upgrading, but having to wait until after you've beaten both the main game (and I think also Forgo Dreams?) to make something compete in terms of damage output is kind of the exact same problem I was talking about earlier. I'd rather all the abilities be good from the start instead of waiting so long that the only place left to use them to their full potential is in the Arena.

[@testerwulf3357]

The reason for the upgrades is difficulty progression! If they started out fully upgraded from the start the game go from super easy and then hit a difficult spot..which isn’t what games normally want! They start out weaker so you’re not too strong and over time you can upgrade them matching with the difficulty curve, you fully upgrade most by end of the game or post game because by then a spike in difficulty happens making earlier phases of your weapon slower to kill bosses with and not as viable.

[@mariomaster101official]

It's been this long but I'm still blown away we finally have 3D Kirby

[@theenderkirby]

While not the first 3D kirby game kirby 3D rumble, blowout blast and vattle royale take the title as the first 3D kirby titles but yeah forgotten land is the first big mainline 3D kirby title

[@doglover3716]

Me too, I am so happy. When I was a kid, I played a lot of Kirby Air Ride (the racing game) and I have fond memories of jumping off my vehicle and running around in 3D as Kirby because I couldn't do that in the main series games.

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

Yeah, and such a good one too!

[@battle188883]

This is a little late, and I'm not exactly sure if this is a sufficient reason. To me, the single player experience isn't really sullied by the bots being there to help you along the way, because there's what I feel is an insane amount of care to make each and every ally in this game endearing. Maybe to you, they're a nuisance to play with, and there's definitely more than enough people who agree with you on that point. For some others though, and perhaps this is what the developers had expected to be the main demographic of this game, having these endearingly cute and awesome allies be there to help you is exactly the type of gameplay they're looking for. They put so much care in the individual allies that they are really hard not to fall in love with and that's great! For me, going "AWWWwww that's so CUTEEEE!," or going "YOOOOooo that's sick!," is in itself the single player experience they were going for in this game.

[@mattguy1773]

Kirby Star Allies is still a banger

[@Driggsdamonstah]

Agreed

[@PoyoDreamer]

Thank you!

[@imselfaware419]

meh

[@skylord1846]

100% agree! Star allies is awesome 😎.

[@Ghost-ul8eu]

Not really

[@harmless9336]

I think Amazing Mirror did computer characters perfectly. They were stupid for sure. They would die to the weak bosses and run into death for no reason. But that was fun because you could just leave them out of the fight if you wanted or call them in whenever with whatever abilities they happened to pick up to help you for the few second they are alive. (Also if they had a good ability like smash you could steal it when they lost it) another thing they were so weak you wanted to protect them as they did the random things they did that most of the time didn’t actually benefit you.

[@artyfowl2]

Kirby and the Amazing Mirror

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

Yeah, Amazing Mirror is great.

[@dustymcwari4468]

Personally, losing a Kirby in Amazing Mirror feels like one of your friends dying while playing online, they’re dumb, but very fun and lovely to have around, and they’re still relatively useful in one way or another, defeating a boss while keeping all Kirbies alive feels pretty good, even if you did most of the job xd While losing an Ally in Star Allies feels like just losing a power up, still a bummer, but meh, and beating a boss while keeping them all, it’s like taking a selfie with your weapons, they really feel like living tools, and even the game forces you to use them as such, which ended up making them feel like a chore to me

[@theenderkirby]

Regardless of the problem I still love both titles but I gotta be honset that forgotten land topped return to dreamland as this title was my favorite kirby title before

[@PoyoDreamer]

I bought star Allies the other day and man do I love that game

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

Glad you're enjoying it!

[@supercat765]

I feel elemental upgrades could theoretically work. It just can't be purely A+B, eg. Fire sword having all the benefits of sword and all the benefits of fire. There just needs to be times that you would want the uncombined powers. The combo needs to be considered as its own ability with it's own use cases that the others can't do or at least does diferently.

[@mathcookie8224]

So like Kirby 64 then?

[@supercat765]

@@mathcookie8224 I think so, maybe, I haven't played that one.

[@LoverofTragedy]

Star Allies is sort of more of a "Au Revoir" to the old formula and story. It's also a Lore Keeper's wet dream. It literally reveals basically everything about the overarching lore of the series. It revealed "The Progenitor of Everything," it gave us more info on the Ancients, Morpho Knight, What Kirby really is, Galacta Knight Cameo, Dream Friends, Kirb, A reference to the freaking anime, the list goes on. The game is more for people who have played all the other games and know about a majority of the lore. For example, a new player would have know idea what Hyness is rambling about, or what Astral Birth: Void really represents as a whole, or why Galacta Knight and Morpho Knight sort of break the timeline in two. However, someone as myself who keeps up to date with the lore and knows basically all present information, would absolutely salivate over most of the information present here. I know I did. Another thing is when people say it's the easiest game. Yes, but only the main story and the minigames. The extra modes are debatably harder than most things in the previous games. The helper to hero mode, is a teensy bit harder than the main game, but the two other modes are where it's really at. Lost in Another Dimension tests all your abilities with the dream friends and goodness is it difficult compared to the rest of the game. Only RtDL, PR, and Star Allies' true arena stacks up to it, and speaking of that. "The Ultimate Choice" is by far the hardest arena we've ever gotten including RtDL's true arena. Even with 3 Magolors and 1 Kawasaki, the later bosses still rock your socks off. Planet Robobot's isn't really hard, with the exception of attack at the end and RtDL's is decently difficult, but that's mainly because the unique fight that's present. Another thing to mention would be the music. The music in this game is the culmination of the entire series. It includes remixes and tracks from all the other games. It's definitely my favorite ost, and I'd argue that it's possibly their best ost objectively speaking due to all the references, callbacks, remixes, and it has the highest amount of tracks of any games. A few highlights would be: Suite: The Star-Conquering Traveler, Deus Ex Machina at a Young Age, Crowning of the Supreme King, The Noble Haltmann (Star Allies' Arrangement though,) La Follia d'amore, Break Time Breakdown, and Warrior from Another World. Most of these are either remixes or reference previous works proving even more how this game is more for veterans of the series. Forgotten Lands is quite literally a series reboot, but in 3d. It throws almost all lore from the original games out, with a few survivors, and has almost no returning characters other than the main 4. The gameplay is pretty different and the amount of abilities even mirrors the amount in the older games. Forgotten Lands' story isn't has referential as Star Allies' as almost all of it is unique to that game. To my knowledge, there's only about 1 thing that requires knowledge from the previous game, and if you know, you know. While I do agree that SA's gameplay was getting a little old, to me and a few others, it's the best game in the series, not for gameplay reasons, but for lore reasons. As much as I like FL, I do have to say that I'm going to miss characters like GK and Magolor if they never return due to the reboot. Here's to hoping they do, especially the former. For a closing thought about FL, with the soft reboot of lore, it opens the portal to so many different lore possibilities. Hopefully, we either get to see GK again, or maybe even a second Hero of Yore entirely. For points I didn't bother adding in to the main write, they'll be here: 1. Puzzle Pieces in SA are not a bad thing. Yes, they are completely optional, but for those who care about the neat references and music that the completed pieces add, it's well worth it. 2. Using your "No Jump" challenges as a basis of rating how integral the abilities in SA are is a horrible way of doing it (No offense.) Not everyone is gonna be using one ability, let alone not jump, the whole game. I prefer to use Hammer and Ninja over all other abilities, but after trying the Staff ability only because I lost Hammer and needed something else is reason enough to try out other abilities. Staff is also my 2nd favorite ability due to that moment and I assume at least 2 other people, Minimum, had the same experience. Another thing is with challenges. Being forced to bring an ability from a previous level because you lacked the needed ability is a pain. You need to run through the level to find the secret, exit to get the needed ability, return all the way to unlock it, then complete the rest of the level. It's a pretty big slog to go through when you realize that you might have to do this for every level. 3. I can't say anything about the main story mode for the allies, they are kind of annoying. Bot for "The Ultimate Choice," they're near mandatory for the average player.I have done it, but that's mainly because I have a backlog of all the other games behind me. Some of the final bosses in TUC are really balanced towards having allies that it would take a major amount of practice to beat them solo. Other than that.... I tried. 4. 10:10 Difficulty ≠ Interesting. For the most part, the levels of SA are pretty boring and average, sure. But some of the final levels and the unique Ally levels are great. 5. Saying that SA's levels are less interesting than FL's levels is understandable, but also pretty unfair. I can say that very few levels from the previous all games can even match up to ANY level in FL, mainly due to the Z-axis. 6. I really don't see the issue with not playing as the Allies. First off, Yes, you can. The main game is an average of about 4-5 hours. The allies mode is about 2 hours. Sure that's only half of the length, but you still get most of the content. You get almost all the bosses, minus the final one and grand mam, and that's only because they have unique gameplay which allies wouldn't change. You can use allies in the arena, to fight against all the extra extra bosses as well. This sounds more like a nitpick than anything. 7. This has been a thing for all the previous games as well. Wanna win easily? Use Rock/Archer or Hammer. They make every other class obsolete due to how powerful they are in the previous games. Not really an exclusive issue. Another thing is mostly due to how many copy abilities their are in SA, and their are too many, that's for sure. FL, only has about 10 I believe, compared to the whopping 28 of SA. One Final, Final thought about the video. You seemed incredibly biased against SA in almost every point. In fact, I rewatched the video twice and saw almost no critique of FL. I understand that you like FL more than Star Allies, but to me, this seemed a bit more like a hate post against Star Allies. Don't get me wrong, I like your content and am for sure not trying to accuse you of anything, but it just feels unfair to SA. I think this is a case of only looking at the flaws. FL definitely has flaws, just the same as SA, but not looking at them feels disingenuous to this type of retrospect video. Please take no offense to any of this, just stating my thoughts. Regardless, point out anything I got wrong and have a wonderful day friend.

[@eshan-does]

I read it all, and I aggre.

[@craftingtales2790]

GOD is Another Dimension hard parallel krako seem almost IMPOSSIBLE to me also Forgotten Land has 12 copy abilities.

[@termina1498]

Agreed. My only slight is how they don't take into consideration the people uninterested in the lore or are simply getting into Kirby series by playing Star allies. Some references and callbacks while cool, wouldn't hit the same vibe for a newer player for example. And the lore is even overwhelming for Veterans. Other than that and a few gripes, agreed.

[@nanazsan7536]

It would be cool if there was only 1 character up at the time, and you could switch between kirby and dream friends anytime

[@PoyoDreamer]

One thing you can’t argue about with star Allies is its music. You all can fight me on this but in my opinion star allies has the best sound track of any Kirby game. You just have to listen to the piano remix of the song “lively street”

[@idunno_]

Star Allies easily has the best soundtrack in the series. The only other ones that even comes close are Robobot and Rainbow Curse

[@eh8271]

I agree. Suite: The Star-Conquering Traveler, passion of the tridental mages and La Follia d'amore are my favorite soundtrack in kirby series. Also, Morpho Knight's all remix themes are great.

[@testerwulf3357]

Remixes are a bit cheating when it comes to sound tracks (specifically when comparing them to other game tracks) unless they’re in the game.

[@geoffreyhamm3436]

i think forgotten land has a better soundtrack by having incredible songs that arent just remixes of old songs and forgotten lands sound track is mostly original

[@ezywiryawan450]

Then again, like the Sonic franchise, music always have been Kirby’s strong suit. Even Dark Nebula aka the final boss that takes 20 seconds to beat up has incredible music

[@BigBozo2]

As somebody who played the game without any friends, and I had a good time. I feel like the allies doing all the work helps if a kid is playing, but maybe they could have added a hard story mode.

[@finnjager1510]

It is funny how Star Allies partly went back to Amazing Mirror, Squeak Squad or even The Great Cave Offensive with its collectible system.

[@andecidreweye]

This is like how Pokémon Legends Arceus succeeded at what Sword and Shield failed at

[@mikelawliet4746]

In the arena, it's fun to pick allies that not only can give you a special ability, but also do more damage to the boss in order to achieve a better time (I don't like the score system in the arena). Further more, there is a function that alowes you to piggy back on a dream allie and allow you to play as them while still playing by yourself (I had way to much fun playing as Marx)

[@sergeantwasp6018]

My only problem with Forgotten Land besides the lack of underwater levels is the fact that in Co-op mode, the bosses COMPLETELY IGNORE BANDANA DEE. Like every boss besides Fecto Elfilis and Chaos Elfilis don’t even try to attack Bandana Dee, even as he’s stabbing away with his spear, the only way he gets hurt is if he accidentally gets hit.

[@MikeTheMcer]

You have been referring to the creators of Kirby Star Allies and Kirby and the Forgotten Land as nintedo. But that's not the case. HAL Laboratory directs and divelopes the games, so that means they were the ones that decided to make Kirby Star Allies the way it is and same with Kirby and the Forgotten Land

[@starbeam7679]

Having friends in single player made it so the game required little thought from the player and felt like you were just walking past everything. It also added the fact that you essentially had 4 separate copy abilities at most times. You had no real need for swapping out any friends or abilities because you could easily do any puzzle and have any element by just using dream friends. It really just removes the fact of needing to change abilities, along with what you did mention which was the fact that you didn't need any other abilities at all besides the one. Kirby super star did friends better. There was only one, and they ended up just helping with fighting than just doing puzzles for you, not to mention how the levels weren't really built for them as much as star allies, and that you didn't need them.

[@oscarwillimott9296]

6:40 Excuse me! You take that back. Planet Robobot's great!

[@Nebbuwu]

i think they mean that all the CPUs do the work that you get bored :^

[@bgmarshall]

i remember doing like the first half of star allies with my siblings before they got bored, and everyone would actively avoid being P1 so that we could play as a dream friend

[@ultramaster7893]

I can understand some flaws with star Allies, but I still love the game. I love having Allies that will help you on your journey and I love having dream friends as well. And I think it’s fun to play as other characters too, especially dream friends

[@mistermamamia]

I agree with everything said about star allies, but I must disagree with some things about forgotten land. Things like the waddle dees feel bad to collect. My idea of a good collectible is just something that requires you to engage with a particular system of the game in a challenging way, and most importantly, each one should feel unique. It's the problem I had with Mario Odyssey, sure there were plenty of collectibles to get, but only few demanded to be engaged with platforming or puzzle solving, and most just required the simple power of observation. A collectible is at its worst if it just needs to be found. Nothing is more boring than just scouring a level for a crack or a path that leads to a single collectible, and that's what most of the waddle dees boil down to. I just really don't like the checklist design either, especially with not being able to see them all from the beginning of the level. To me the game made it way too frustrating to even want to 100%, so after the second world I just sped through the game and collected only the easy to see waddle dees, and was never gated from anything. They felt useless to me. I know this is the design Kirby is at home with, but as a fan of 3d platformers with more a more single and important collectible focus, in the style of Mario Sunshine or Galaxy, I just want each collectible to feel important, rather than be a part of a mass goal that lets you pick and choose which to get to progress.

[@Reinoiro]

Maybe its purely kirby fan bias because i was so excited to play the game, but i found waddle dees to be some of the best collectibles to find. Collecting power stars in SM64 and other collectibles in 3d platformers felt like a chore to me, but here individual waddle dees, especially the main bunch for each level, might have had less substance to them but they perfectly compliment linear level design and end up being a tiny detour not hard to notice that rewards you with a collectible and a cute animation. Other waddle dees are fun because hints are mostly straight forward and if you didnt collect them on the first go, then on second playthrough of the level it adds replay value because you dont just stumble into each corner of the level because you just cant find what to do, but are told a hint that gives a direction but doesnt take away from the satisfaction of discovery. Unlike most collectibles, waddle dees are not soulles objects, but npcs that make your hubworld more lively. Minigames and other things unlocked with waddle dees are not really useful, but even though you dont really have no need for healing, for example, waddle dee things are charming and cute. I fully completed almost the entire game except for a few levels, and i almost never felt frustrated, because waddle dees are easy to find, compliment level design, if you couldnt find them all then they give more replay value, and after that make your hubworld livelier. I understand why collectibles like this may be unfamiliar to people who played games with collectibles like SM64 or SMG and why someone would not like them, but i think waddle dees perfectly fit into levels of Forgotten Land and are some of the best designed collectibles.

[@Murr248]

Honestly after having to do all of the “No Damage” Waddle Dees i can agree. Though i find Sunshine a very poor example of this style done right because of the Blue Coins

[@testerwulf3357]

Collecting them isn’t useless! It upgrades your little town area; while it may not motivate everyone I feel like for me that’s an important reason to collect them..plus I just can’t not save them all, trapped in cages sucks (I feel bad for them). And the slight difficulty makes it more rewarding than finding them all in open easy to spot places. Everyone has their own goals

[@LeosAlloy94]

Honestly I loved playing Star Allies, and even 100% the game. By no means does this make it a good game, especially when myself got the game early where it was quite bare. I appreciated the added content to the game post launch and made me come back to the game a lot like when a new Smash character gets added. I liked the premise of a multiplayer focused game like Return but with a character roster far more vast. Honestly I liked the game because it gave me that nostalgia feeling of all my past adventures into 1 game. However it suffers from what I like to call RE5 syndrome where it's so multiplayer (cpu or pc) focused it loses that luster of being your adventure. On top of that although the cpu "do stuff" later on they end up getting in the way of bosses, causing more on screen lag, and die super easy. And since bosses are assuming you're using 4 characters their damage scale and hp make you trying to solo them difficult especially in the post game. Not only that, but even if you get 1 or more pcs' player 1 makes all the decisions in the "friend sections" making their choices null. I love the game, but it's really a game you kinda have to play if you and others if any already love Kirby. Vs, Forgotten Land is so easy to pick up as a new or returning Kirby player, both in the story, and gameplay. Plus Multiplayer in Forgotten Land feels more impactful to player 2 when they can interact with the environment and not just p1.

[@PerlVeemo]

kirby star allies still bangs for me

[@PerlVeemo]

*to play with friends

[@jakubm5385]

The true reason why forgotten land is better is that star allies has keys and forgotten land doesnt

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

Now that you mention it...

[@imselfaware419]

Today, I learned that Forgotten Land doesn't have items.

[@robhat]

I LOVE Star Allies, my younger brother and me used to play it all the time it was his first Kirby game and we loved playing every second of it. my favourite characters are Marx and gooey and i liked seeing them come back as dream friends.

[@bgamer5124]

I think the only joy I got out of Star Allies was trying really hard to beat Soul Melter and playing through all of the Guest Star's while making story's out of them

[@marcoasturias8520]

I haven't played any of the 3ds games but I doubt sun stones or code cubes are like waddle dees in forgotten land. To access the final for if forgotten land you need 30...out of 300... With just beating each level once you have enough and more, you'll only need to sidetrack for the first boss. If anything, functionally they are gears from return, unlocking facilities in the hub

[@Gamian8]

That's not really true. I've learned the any% Speedrun route for the forgotten land, and you'd be surprised as to how much even the world record time has to sidetrack to get some waddle dees to get the requirements. There are some levels that they grab 3, 4, or even 5 extra waddle dees to meet the requirements for the boss

[@lordhelix1705]

The waddle see requirements only accept waddle dees from that specific world. However, I do agree that with getting basically half the requirement just by beating all the levels, it does make too few of the hidden waddle dees necessary

[@kirbyofthestarsfan]

You might want to say HAL Labs instead of just Nintendo since HAL's pretty much the ones making every decision behind the game That said, really solid points, I think the only point where it's kind of irrelevant is "Dream Friends should be playable for P1 too" since they majority got added in post-release (and the game suffers enough from identity crisis with Guest Star being the more interesting part of the game) While Star Allies is mechanically solid (I know plenty of friends who had a blast playing it), I definitely think it's a game *way* too leaning on satisfying veteran players with its fanservice and huge team party focus design, which was kind of the last thing the Kirby series needed at that point in the Switch's lifespan

[@hectorthecartoonandvideoga9328]

For part 6, you can give them a piggyback ride.

[@peco595]

While the elemental abilities are indeed useless for a single player, that's another facet of the game where multiplayer comes in. If you are playing with multiple people, then the elemental abilities become not useless since you're gonna need someone to have at least one. Overall, I think the elemental effects on abilities did generate an interesting Arena experience since most every boss has elemental weaknesses or just patterns that make certain elements better at fighting them. It just stinks that it's such a hassle to switch in singleplayer. Overall, Star Allies just isn't a great singlrplayer game. I wouldn't strike that as a hard negative against the game, just a bit of a disappointment. Not having online play though will always be a harsh negative.

[@LynxTheUnrelated]

7:54 You can just use shield + Y to unfriend anyone(including dream friends, which is impossible with normal unfriending) trough a special "select who to unfriend" menu, which does as u said have the potential to make the game way more fun than it is normally. Alas forgotten land is still leagues better and I agree with u on everything in this video, just pointed that out for the counter argument's sake :3

[@PonandCon9025]

Don't let this distract you from the fact that nearly every Animal character from Kirby was absent in an Animal Themed Kirby game (EX. The Animal Friends, and *read username)*

[@theenderkirby]

So at least in my opinion I recommend people to get star allies if they like easy and fun multiplayer expirience though return to dreamland is a better option and forgotten land is the title you want for more single player expirience

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

A good succinct analysis.

[@theenderkirby]

@@CMeeCraftGaming thanks you if you want more analysis I am a person to call ^^

[@BenVaBo]

I gotta disagree with you on the copy abilities. I love Star Allies's ability mixing and I don't like how abilities were handled in forgotten land.

[@battle188883]

Care to elaborate?

[@PoyoDreamer]

@@battle188883 yeah, as much as I love forgotten land, and believe me it’s my favorite switch game, forgotten land only has 12 abilities with 2 of them being one time uses and the abilities move sets are dumbed down. Star allies did abilities better with over 20 different abilities and different elements that can change up the move sets (especially the bluster Enhancements )

[@BenVaBo]

@@battle188883 Well, it was fun experimenting with which abilities works well with which element and seeing which ones work best in certain situations. The problem I have with KFL is, it has ability variations, but they're more upgrades in the way that most of the time the previous variation becomes just immediately redundant. Also, a lot of abilities only know like 2 moves which is kind of a downgrade.

[@stijngryp2589]

@@BenVaBo experimenting? its very obvious you can only "upgrade" weapon based abilety's

[@lukebytes5366]

That's the one thing I didn't like all that much, and I don't think upgrades make up for it. It goes without saying though this was done out of necessity, and hopefully they weave in more complex abilities like ninja as they go on.

[@spidey5108]

Some objections. First, the framework for Modern Kirby originated with elements of Super Star Ultra. But looking back to Return to Dreamland is more essential because it provides a multiplayer game that doesn't ruin the single player experience. The Friend gimmick is finicky, but there was no reason for the level design to be so basic, considering that they pulled it off 10 years ago. Not to mention scaling health and allowing the chance to play as Dream Friends in any mode. The inability to even _unlock_ their use for Single Player Story is one of my few gripes left with the entire franchise. However, this Friend juggling you speak of? There's a _button combo_ that lets you instantly remove a Friend of your selection, for more convenience. Guard + Y, I think. And it's not like removing Friends is that big a hassle. It takes 5 seconds, and if you want them gone? You're not going to be trying to pick the best ones everytime the game wants you to reselect. So that decreases the "hassle" of Unfriending dramatically. I also object to the idea of Copy Abilities being obsolete through combos. Maybe I like Sword better, but someone who loves Fire will play Fire for its moveset. And while Star Allies doesn't force you to expand your arsenal to solve puzzles, you are permitted to and will indeed find, there are many combos to use to earn those pieces. I first discovered the Elemental mix moves just from puzzles. Forcing the player to collect collectibles to progress would be no more fun based on bring forced to do so. I found finding Energy Spheres or Puzzle Pieces far more fun than getting Sun Stones or Code Cubes, because of the puzzle design, not because I was obligated to get them or free to ignore them. In fact, I'd say for Triple Deluxe and Planet Robobot, having to go out of my way to nab those often lowered my enjoyment. Choice to progress is key. You shouldn't rely on an obscure excuse to attempt puzzles. That defeats the purpose of deciding to entertain them and get better at the game. Thankfully, the Waddle Dees were just below the Energy Spheres in terms of enjoyment, but I think it would have been better if the checklists had been completely revealed after a single clear. No shade on Forgotten Land's levels, but i don't want to replay the game 4 times just to find every level's one obscure Waddle Dee. The worry of getting enough Waddle Dees the first time would have disappeared entirely and relaxed my playthrough much more if an arbitrary number was shown on the boss gates all the time. Having to wait an entire world just to see if I was one Dee short was stressful. As for Star Allies, I think the Power Up Hearts serve the most objective purpose out of any collectibles in the modern series so far, and the Friend Hearts were the most challenging to get yet. In conclusion, I believe Star Allies is inferior to Forgotten Land, but I don't think it is a broken game altogether. Fixing just a few of the franchise's overall issues like presentation of story, level design, and character selection (not to mention a better Extra Mode system) would have improved it greatly, in my eyes. And it's not like Forgotton Land has great multiplayer either. The biggest game in the series... and you basically go it alone.

[@megarotom1590]

Honestly a subtle thing I loved about forgotten land was Kirby's nerfed jump, it forced you to actually...play the levels

[@PoyoDreamer]

Tbh I like it better with unlimited flight. There is a lot of freedom to be found in a 2d game then how it would work in 3d.

[@megarotom1590]

@@PoyoDreamer Depends on the game imo, in some games, I feel like some of the 2D kirby games don't really have as much value as a platformer due to the mobility options, and when that isn't a problem, usually infinite flight isn't really necessary anyways. Then again kirby has never been about being hard...idk just the fact one can fly over most levels is a bit of an eh

[@stijngryp2589]

@@megarotom1590 heres the thing though flying over everything is slow and boring so unless you're having a really painfull expierence with a level then you could fly but most Kirby levels have a tight cealing and when even thet is not the case its probebly not a frustrating part of the level

[@megarotom1590]

@@stijngryp2589 fair enough...still there's no real punishment for falling and I haven't seen many cases where infinite flight has actually helped kirby

[@stijngryp2589]

@@megarotom1590 well is there a punishment for dying in a Kirby game? besides the erena ofcource

[@iamsushi1056]

I can’t wait for the next game that combines the 3d world and the ability to combine abilities. Mouthful mode was a major disappointment and weird

[@thetrue_altf4]

I feel like since Kirby and the Forgotten Land was released, Star Allies has been received a LOT of criticism, and not good criticism, like c'mon, it's not a bad game at all, they have two different focuses, those being multiplayer and single player, while yes, Forgotten Land IS indeed better than Star Allies, recently, people are making it look like Star Allies is another Squeak Squad. They're both great games with different focuses (as said earlier), Star Allies is more of a chill game that is more into lore than anything else while Forgotten Land goes wild with new ideas and a 3D world while also introducing more new characters and more lore, Forgotten Land focuses on exploring new horizons while Star Allies goes back to a simpler time, Star Allies tried to answer old questions while Forgotten Land is bringing up new questions to keep the community interested. In resume, Star Allies DIDN'T fail, it maybe dissapointed in a few aspects but that's to be expected for a game that's more lore focused, Forgotten Land DIDN'T fix what Star Allies failed because it didn't fail from the start, Forgotten Land gave the game the community wanted, Star Allies gave the answers the community wanted. Feel free to criticize my opinion, I'm willing to hear what y'all have to say.

[@prosylan6368]

With how good forgotten land is I wonder if star allies was Boring on purpose so forgotten land would be better then what it is already

[@thetrue_altf4]

@@prosylan6368 Nintendo doesn't do that.

[@crazfamily6931]

Ok so I can actually think of 3 possible reasons on why the ai is in the game. All 3 kinda play into each other so its all kinda one big guess. 1. (The most likely reason) Multi-player gameplay was possible but they wanted to incorporate that for those who don't have friends and in a fun and new way rather than just have more kirbys or just waddle dee as player 2. also 4 player kirby game. 2. (Interesting idea) They serve as a way to storage your current abilities without swapping them and then decided to do it more "kirby style" by making them be Multi-player characters..... 3. This was probably a "first attempt" at modifications to copy abilities since kirby on the 64. Which lead to forgotten land with the way they do their mechanics. Where they learned from star allies. I would like a heart now maybe? Also thanks for reading if you did. Edit: shout out to One eyed Triangle he hit the reasoning on the nose.

[@theicetypespecialist9691]

For you part three If my memory service me right there is a reset thing before each boss. So just stand on that for like one second and put your copy ability and fiends as copy ability essence and after a quick hop you have your copy ability and no friends also there are sooooo many friendeble enemies so it can’t be super annoying to get new ones. And at all friend circle areas they give you free friends. Is that enough to get you to heart my evidence

[@Videospiel-Man5730]

Yeah And The ZR/Y or X im not sure Delete Button that gives you the Option at any Time To delete Whoever you want!

[@jomjom230]

I kept wondering why when I play forgotten land, I feel more at home than in star allies, like when I first played Triple deluxe and eventually planet robobot. I'm glad this video explains it beatifully. 90% of my Star Allies hours is spent me doing soul melter ex with solo Meta Knight. Heck I spent 10x more time in Kirby clash than in Star Allies. I love star allies for the absolute bomb of a lore drop, but I agree it sucks gameplay wise.

[@JiaKee99]

I really appreciate this summation because I absolutely loved forgotten land but star allies fell flat for me when I played it. My husband and I did it together (both games) and if was a big feeling of “that’s it?” Meanwhile forgotten land was super fulfilling and like you mentioned, everything felt earned!

[@Jeff_Idiotface]

No counter argument; Kirby Super Star's helper system, which is probably the basis of Kirby Star Allies before the concept of Milkyway Wishes being stretched into its own game, doesn't steal the show since your AI companion isn't smart enough to deal damage without getting hurt; of whom's hurt animation give you time to do something. 7:11

[@lilyofthevalley3059]

The bots in star allies would be okay if the game was harder. One complaint I have about the multiplayer aspect of that game is that player 1 can replace other players' copy ability without their permission. Had that happen to me multiple times (all of those were accidental). I was disappointed that I couldn't play as Meta Knight in forgotten land since that has been my favorite character to play as.

[@Zek3nator]

Counter argument: Kirby Star Allies is called Kirby Human Resources in Europe.

[@kamikazexd1125]

all i was missing in forgottenland was an incentive to get all collectables like in 3d-world

[@jonlevidalkvistagustsson6134]

Extremely hot take: I think star allies is better due to a multitude of reasons such as SA having more abilitys then ATFL and no the upgrades while cool i dont think makes up for it and i honestly found my self running out of things to do in ATFL while i keep returning to SA to do atleast semi new things maybe my opinion will change if ATFL gets DLC like SA did but until then i personally think Star Allies is better.

[@skylord1846]

I agree. Star Allies is my favorite Kirby game.

[@jonlevidalkvistagustsson6134]

To be clear though i dont haye or dislike ATFL I absoloutley love it and I honestly think its one of the best kirby games ever but I still think SA is better

[@skylord1846]

@@jonlevidalkvistagustsson6134 I agree! Kirby and the forgotten land is my second favorite Kirby game.

[@hectorthecartoonandvideoga9328]

You only used one ability in Star Allies? Whip and Staff are amazing, and I recommend you to use them too, especially their bluster versions.

[@prosylan6368]

He means for the no jump challenge he did for star allies he only used bluster sword

[@somethin7020]

About the bosses encounters in star allies, they do give you a pedestal to discard your allies before every major boss. The game straight up gives you an option before every boss (other than minibosses or the final boss) to fight them without allies. I don't know why so many people just ignore this feature and never mention it. Everyone says it's a shame that your allies ruin the bosses, but ignore the fact that the game has an obvious built in feature specifically made to be able to solo the bosses and It kind of makes me annoyed that people just ignore a really obvious feature. It's not like the feature is a lot of work either. you literally stand on the pedestal press one button for like a second and then it makes your allies into copy-abilities and you can choose which one you'll use for the boss. Maybe they could've been more clear with the option, but to me on my first playthrough it was perfectly clear and I have no idea why no one seems to use it if they have such an issue with the allies ruining bosses. That being said I understand and agree with a lot of the complaints about star allies. I think it's a good game, but definitely not one of the best in the series I just think the complaint of having to use allies in the bosses is just straight up false.

[@TechBlade9000]

In a game the literally signposts and pauses the entire game to explain mechanics, if that's not done players will not get curious, they've directly discouraged from doing so

[@ohadhabrnash334]

3.good pont example:id use marx and 3 3 sisters to K*** the Everything in the hardist level of the spice thing when i played ot

[@munchrai6396]

The one thing that Star Allies does have over Forgotten Land is its abundance of Lore. Very few games push their lore as much as Star Allies does and it makes the game a superb entry point into the series if you somehow don't have Return To Dreamland or Superstar Ultra available. Honestly, I do find Forgotten Land to be somewhat bland in comparison to any modern Kirby game that isn't Star Allies. Each of them incorporates their central gimmick much more naturally into their plot and worlds. Forgotten Land gives vague hints about all of this stuff, but there just isn't enough lore for that strategy to really bare fruit. Also, I really wish they had standardized kirby's hover instead of making it fluctuate from level to level because some parts like the Treasure Roads for Fire abilities give you little to no recoverable jump height. This often means that one poorly timed dash will leave you falling into the abyss in a KIRBY GAME

[@ezywiryawan450]

Ehh… as much as I like the overarching dark matter lore and especially Void Termina (which is peak kirby lore), I also really feel that at this point, that trend (much like the KatfL mechanism in star allies) had begun to be stagnant. I felt it was getting to the point where I dread that the next kirby game after SA will have a dark matter relative as their final boss. What Kirby really needs are original villians. This is why I love Sectonia and Fecto Elfilis- they aren’t really related to any previous final bosses (I mean I know that Sectonia was corrupted by Dark Meta Knight but there is very little similarities in powers and appearance), but they also contribute to the overarching lore.

[@lukebytes5366]

Something I don't see people mention is how: in the main game, you basically need to ditch the main new mechanic to have a fair fight, in the HIAD mode though, it's the opposite. Those bosses are so jam packed with hp that you need allies just to prevent the boss from sponging you. This is why the allies mechanic (and really any mechanic where you can choose to be weak sauce or omega level in terms of power) just feels bad to play in terms of difficulty. If you want to have a balanced game, you have to tip-toe on the fragile eggshells that are puzzles, bosses, etc. Regardless of whether there's an easy workaround to this to make the experience more bearable, (which I've read the comments, there is) a mechanic that pushes the complexities of difficulty onto the player just screams poor design to me. Not that I'm against letting then player choose their own difficulty situationally, but in cases like these a difficulty mode is kind of necessary.

[@diamondmemer9754]

Ok so star allies has various puzzles that require you to use multiple characters to proceed, which means that you must be able to have four characters available at all times, which was obviously made to allow for multiplayer Therefore, having the player forcibly lose all of their companions who aren't actual players before every bossfight would have been an even worse design choice since you choose your friends to have the most options against enemies and puzzles, and while the game let's you lose all your friends with the platforms you find before every bossfight, many players didn't actually see it as a hard mode like it was maybe supposed to be, and buffing enemies when there's four players wouldn't make sense when losing your friends is a deliberate choice and would go against the "anyone friendly" philosophy of the game TLDR: before every bossfight you can press a button to be alone and have an actual challenge during the fights, it's not the best solution, but it's the only one that doesn't go against the ideas that the game was trying out, which sadly didn't manage to end up being good

[@isaacrogers4174]

3:44 What about the hearts in the other dimension mode that unlock the Mage Sisters? Do those count?

[@lpfan4491]

They do, but it does not even begin to address the issues present...because it literally does not. It is exclusive to a postgame mode...or well, not even postgame, more like post-postgame considering one already had the true arena-equivalent of the game(Soul Melter).

[@bennyk384]

Haven’t played star allies but am loving forgotten land. Had a few gripes with the game from the get go though. Firstly: I really miss command inputs. Ninja, plasma and doctor had really fun command inputs in robobot. Also, being able to use the fireball dash whenever I wanted and not just in the air was amazing. For the most part, forgotten land has only standard attacks, with some exceptions (air attacks and mash attacks like with ice). I miss doing the cherry blossom attack with ninja and other similar stuff. 2) there are so few copy abilities. I remember having a lot of fun with the wide variety of copy abilities in triple deluxe and robobot. And they were well fleshed our with the command inputs. In fairness, upgrading copy abilities in the forgotten land does mix things up somewhat, but I still prefer the variety brought by the abundance of copy abilities. Also, some upgrades are just too OP. (Space ranger charge shot just shreds bosses lol). I guess I could use the standard versions only but that seems silly. That being said, absolutely love the game, and I can’t wait to 100% it. There’s so much to do (and so much postgame too! I love postgame!). And the upgraded abilities are so much fun, so I can’t complain too much.

[@solgerWhyIsThereAnAtItLooksBad]

It succeeds in the “being fun” part

[@alexmachan3255]

It really says something about the series when the 3rd worst Kirby game is just good instead of great.

[@CMeeCraftGaming]

Very fair point.

[@doglover3716]

My biggest issue with Star Allies is that with 4 characters there was too much stuff on the screen at once, and I'd keeping losing track of where my character was.

[@PoyoDreamer]

Then turn off the cpu. Seriously you only ever need them for puzzles and friend formation, the game isn’t fully forcing you.

[@doglover3716]

@@PoyoDreamer I played with friends, so we couldn't really turn off CPUs. I still enjoyed the game quite a bit even if the screen was too chaotic for me sometimes. I really like the direction these 2 Switch Kirby games seem to be taking the series.

[@JLMetak]

@@PoyoDreamer Except Friend formations are REQUIRED at many points to progress. So yes, Star Allies forces you to create friends, so often in fact that it is a waste of time to try and remove them. And I still enjoy Star Allies as mindless power fantasy where I get to have a team of old friends, but people need to understand that a lot of its design decisions are a step back compared to its predecessors. With Forgotten Land out the game is a lot more enjoyable as that "last hurrah" for 2D Kirby (even if it is the worst modern 2D game, even with all the content it has).

[@unnaturaldisaster9450]

the true fun in star allies is the post-game content the ultimate choice forces you to know the bosses well and their moves while still providing options for the less skilled. heroes in another dimension fix the collectible problem by using them as a way to get the good ending. also KSA was made for groups of people to play together, making freinds IRL and in the game. the dream freinds not being allowed in p1 in story mode is less of a restriction and more of a teaser when using piggyback mode. the copy ability upgrades in KSA dont make others really that redundant because you need a freind who can make that type of attack already and when you use mix abilities its usually for combat and movement and the puzles serve more as a tutorial to let you know that they exist in the first place so you can integrate element combos into combat for big damage. however the by far best part of KSA is the environments and narative told through the pause screens and implied through design. the environment of the jamba cult bases provides a both mechanical and organic look coupled with the incredible color palette to make everything look fantastic. I think that KSA and breath of the wild are tied for the two BEST LOOKING GAMES NINTENDO HAS EVER MADE. imo the story and lore of KSA made me dissapointed when I got to KFL and saw that that was it. it helps to view KSA more like Kirby Super Star and less like return to dream land. story mode isnt story mode its spring breeze. guest star is like metaknightmare. heros in another dimension is milky way wishes.

[@crownednova]

I’m honestly so glad to hear someone actually mention how SA really doesn’t feel anything like the 3 games before it. Okay, that’s hyperbole, but honestly, I still love playing through RtDL, TDX and PR, but SA just lacks a lot of what makes this games great. I think I agree with almost everything stated here, great analysis!

[@dustymcwari4468]

Tbh, previous games handled multiplayer very well, adventures you can take on your own, or with friends, all on equal footing, all freedom for everyone While Star Allies feels more like those annoying tours that often force everyone to engage in specific activities that may or may not be fun and make stops in specific locations, only from time to time they let the tourist go loose, and all predetermined, if someone’s missing, we going nowhere, and if you’re alone, they pair you up with strangers, because no one’s never alone ❤️

[@terretro3623]

I fully agree with you on everything but I’ll try to find some dumb way to defend what you said about Star Allies in part 3 because why not. What if you connect 3 other controllers so you can play on your own without AI ruining everything? Or maybe see if you can get you and 3 other people together to play? What I mean is, what if you treat Star Allies like more of a multiplayer spin-off rather than a mainline in terms of how you play it? I don’t have Star Allies but I played with some friends on their switch once and while it was a short time, it was quite a bit of fun.

[@terretro3623]

Yet again, if you want to play multiplayer, then return to Dreamland is the way to go

[@gbyt034]

Not everyone has access to that many friends and trying to micro manage 4 characters at once is annoying

[@terretro3623]

@@gbyt034 good points. But what I meant with connecting the 3 other controllers is just for the allies to not be controlled by anyone at all. But yeah, there’s still the liability of them dying so that’s not a great solution, even though there is the off screen tp

[@PoyoDreamer]

You really don’t need multiplayer for the majority of star Allies.

[@isaacrogers4174]

I really like Star Allies, it’s an underrated Kirby game imo.

[@isaacrogers4174]

Say what you want about Star Allies as a game. But I think we can all agree that the dream friends are some of the best part of the game! Being able to play as Marx, Daroach, Magalor, and more is amazing! You’re able to use abilities that those characters have used in their boss fights! I can see why the fan service alone can make Star Allies someone’s favorite Kirby game for that reason alone!

[@abra_escaped]

Lemme take some guesses before watching: -much longer story mode stages -good amount of difficulty before the extra mode and true arena equivalents -collectibles that serve a functional purpose While I love the amount of little details, fan service, and new lore details in Star Allies, I do think Forgotten Land is the better game by quite a bit... but like I say, there's never been a bad Kirby game After watching: Looks like I was mostly correct. If I remember, you can actually unfriend allies without losing your ability by pressing the drop button while blocking. Still sucks that you're required to have friends for several parts of the game (most of which require very little input anyway) Somehow I got the idea that Return to Dream Land dx was adding the ability for p1 to play as the other characters. No idea where I got that from but I was disappointed when it came out and that wasn't the case. Guess it would conflict with the puzzles and super ability sections but the "has beaten Guest Star as every character" in me says it would be very cool

[@Marshadow01]

7:55 But isn’t there an auto-unfriend imput that isn’t connected to the ability release button?

[@PoyoDreamer]

Yes and no. You press L or R + Y to quick drop your friends. And for some reason people act like the game forces you to play with friends the whole way through. I picked up this this game 5 days ago and so far I’m having a blast. Definitely my 2nd favorite Kirby game.

[@prosylan6368]

@@PoyoDreamer what's your first

[@PoyoDreamer]

@@prosylan6368 My favorite then was Forgotten land, but now that I 100% star allies I 'm having a hard time pinking between the 2, it feels like picking a favorite child. But one thing is for shore, all the main lines from returns to dreamland to now are my top 5 favorite Kirby games.

[@prosylan6368]

@@PoyoDreamer have you played planet robobot

[@C_hi_cken]

I think they had to keep it safe with the friend ability because so many people started buying nintendo Switch, which its main selling point at the start was you can play with your friends

[@jonkku]

14:16 Upgrading Sword does make Fire redundant, however. (funny you used "fire sword" as an example just a minute earlier.) Also Hammer upgrades add more fire to it as well. And besides abilities stepping on other abilities, having infinite free access to upgraded Sleep to reapply buffs between levels makes the whole item store in town pointless too.

[@EnGyuszi]

I would like to disagree with both of your statements. First of all, yes, the final evolution of sword and hammer has fire properties, but you get one of them after completing the game and the other by completing the additional storey extension. As for the item shop, firstly you can only get upto 200 seconds of buff with sleep, you can not hold onto it (unless you give up both a normal copy ability and suck) and there is also the fact that it is very boring

[@donovanmahan2901]

Oh right, that upgrade has fire type damage. Hammer fire was a thing for a while though, such that they designed a post-game level around it.

[@zaneheaston8254]

I agree with correlation that limiting the player isn’t negative concept, Case in point, look squarely at the modern day Yugioh franchise why would ANYBODY only normal summon monsters 1 at a time when you special summon monsters with no limit, introduce multiple methods of summoning high level monsters through special summoning, and have those high level monsters have absurdly powerful abilities like immunity to monster, spell, & trap effects

[@thePersonoyt]

What is yall's favorite copy ability? Mine is rock

[@fl2560]

Cool my favorite copy ability is rock too

[@nintendoboy3605]

Why is there a non challenge video on this channel?

[@cadencenavigator958]

Kirby, jumping in the intro Me: Wait, that's illegal

[@RGC_animation]

Nintendo is known for taking huge risk and completely changing their games from the previous one. Sometimes they work very greatly, like Super Mario Odyssey, and sometimes they flop, like Kirby Star Allies. However, I am not mad that Kirby Star Allies is not that good, I'm actually glad that they tried new ideas, saw that it didn't work, and reverted the idea.

[@Brycekoch1128gmailcom]

11:59 it wouldn’t really make sense bc for example, Susie is from another planet so would the portal suck her in too ig?

[@marcoasturias8520]

Gotta love how my notif said how KtFL suc...

[@pepper6592]

why do you talk to "nintendo" when hal makes the games

[@kennyholmes5196]

because Nintendo owns HAL Labs.

[@loading....6512]

@@kennyholmes5196 wrong

[@pepper6592]

@@kennyholmes5196 they don't

[@geoffreyhamm3436]

i had more fun in the first half of the game by mostly not having cpu allies its way more fun that way

[@guffthebir72]

I like the friends, but I want to get beam, and they murder my waddle doo, same with trying to friend one.

[@ysten3869]

I loved doing solo runs of the boss rush with a single copy ability my favorites being cutter and parasol thanks to i frames and fun playstyles

[@syndere6755]

I personally think that Star Allies's issues run similarly and oppositely as my issues with the New Soup games. The one aspect that the game is built around is great, but playing it any other way just ends up being not as enjoyable. New Soup is built around the singleplayer, but there is the option to add in friends. Everyone knows that playing with others though ends up being a chaotic mess and loss of lives. Star Allies however, is built around the multiplayer. I mean, it's in the name. You play with your allies. And because of that focus, playing solo kind of falls flat.

[@samuelmitschele-dauenhauer2984]

I don't have the equipment to make my own video, but Star Allies is a great game. And its absurd to to me the amount of bashing it gets.

[@kennyholmes5196]

Hey, you can like and dislike whichever games you want. Different people like different things.

[@ameliabaroni2650]

It's short(doesn't make it bad but it lacked a bit of content at the start, fortunately they added Heroes from Another Dimension which is basically a mode that fixes the problems of the Story Mode), easy to the point of being boring(the Friend Partners are literally OP) and yeah like overall pretty mediocre at the start, a bit better now but like the game should have been like this from the start and then they could have added content and none probably would have complained too much Too bad it's like this, this game has very interesting ideas in it, with a bit more time of development this could have been such a great game

[@samuelmitschele-dauenhauer2984]

Lacked content? Did you play Guest Star with the 30 plus characters that were in the game before DLC? Too easy? It's KIRBY, besides the boss rushes, its not supposed to hard. And the DLC added two very challenging things The Dream Friends, are SUPPOSED to be OP, (especially the ones based off past villains), it frankly would be weird if they weren't. Star Allies was one last celebration of the series' History before they started a new generation, (that new generation being Forgotten Land), its supposed to be the Avengers Endgame of Kirby, where "Everyone is Here!". And it is does that very well.

[@PoyoDreamer]

Yeah I’m terms of how hard a Kirby game can get, star Allies can get pretty spicy.

[@PoyoDreamer]

You all do realize you can turn off tips and rest your team before boss to make the game more challenging right?

[@castform7]

I still don't consider Star Allies to be a bad game but I also don't consider it good. If I only like a game after I complete the main mode, it's not a great sign. There are a lot of arguments to be made that SA is an anniversary game and a final hoorah for 2D Kirby. My rebuttal would be that it focused way too much on anniversary and way too little on game. 2 whole worlds less than games on weaker hardware with less interesting settings does not say "final hoorah" to me. Awesome fanservice can only bring a game so far before it's short comings become more apparent.

[@alphonsejohnson5601]

But this game is still better than sonic forces

[@ezywiryawan450]

You see, the main issue isn’t that star allies have overpowered characters. Forgotten land has litteraly the high tier copy evolutions which can get ridiculous. Even the first evolutions of Hammer and Sword can deal the highest damage output in the game and has a gurard that blocks almost everything while still being able to move, respectively The main problem is that the mechanics of Star Allies are too reliant on those OP characters. If you don’t play with them, the game feels incomplete (or near impossible to beat in the case of Soul Melter EX) You are expected to play with CPU allies, even if they shred anything within their radius. Sure, it’s awesome to play with 4 Magalors, but it quickly subsides when you realise you can shred the penultimate boss within seconds. Meanwhile, Forgotten land is much more flexible in its difficulty. For example, the Ultimate Cup Z could be the easiest or hardest true arena in the series depending on what copy abilities and items you have. There is no need to use those OP abilities outside from some treasure roads. Thus, we have a game that carters to those who liked the “destroy anything in your path” aspect of star allies and those who would like a more challenging experience.

[@lpfan4491]

Ironically, that is why Star Allies is kinda fun postgame wise. Soul Melter EX is rediculous and I cannot beat it with certain parts of the roster, but it really has that spice it advertises. While Forgotten Land is the overall better game, one issue it has is that it is possibly the easiest Kirby game ever and the bulk of the postgame is grinding up everything to max, which is...certainly a thing.

[@Lillenmedmillen]

In defense of verdict 3: Just make some friends lol

[@xlolxyz6134]

kirby star allies is acctualy good it had the best character playabilty and i enjoy star allies forgoten land was kinda short i just finish the game within 1 day

[@tobiasrung506]

Me and my friend Henrik was one boss from beating soul melter ex and Henrik and I beat the three mage sisters after so many tries

[@Driggsdamonstah]

Funny how Star Allies ended up being my 4th least favorite Mainline Kirby, although silver trophy may be pushing Forgotten Land just a little bit. Although Forgotten Land is still at least top 5. Edit: You can actually hold the shoulder buttons and Y to unfriend someone.

[@PoyoDreamer]

Yes! Thank you for mentioning that. I started playing the game the other day and I’ve been using that to have a mostly single player experience and I kept on wondering why didn’t people use this more often. There is literally an option to turn of tips.

[@hioman]

To your point of star allies never having you swap abilities, that is so true. Did you know that star allies introduced the spider copy ability? I did, and I still never used it, aside from playing as taranza in heros in another dimension. That being said, the real flaw is giving the player 3 cpus to do it with. In adventure, they had the same problem, but you still swap between abilities frequently because it didn't implement 2 different things that hurt KSA. You can't hold a copy ability after being hit, and you can't give an ability to a cpu to solve the puzzle for you. If you want to use the cannon, you gotta use fire. In KSA if you wanna use a cannon, you turn cpu player 3 into a hot head and then he'll light the fire And the part of not being allowed to play as dream friends, I bought the game after the DLC came out. Not only did I have to play a smaller version of the game to play as dream friends, it was torture that I had to beat the game as well, knowing I was *this* close to being able to play as the DLC

[@rockassassin64]

Actually I do feel that start allies whole Space thing does feel like we're going into space however that is nothing new for Kirby so it's not super interesting cuz Kirby went into space Deering superstar/ Superstar Ultra, Kirby 64, and Dreamland returns. At this point space is just part of Kirby's main setting so that doesn't make the exploration in Star allies anymore exciting than any other Kirby game like we do it all the time I like Star allies I really like to see characters like marks come back as well as Adeline and ribbon who i used pretty much through the entirety of the game. But I agree with you that star allies could have been better and it's setting isn't doing any favors. Are you ugly a post-apocalypse also isn't very new territory for Kirby since shiver star exist but like that's only a few levels in one game so forgotten lands which I technically haven't played yet definitely is actually treading some new territory there and is able to make a more interesting setting because of it.

[@SareuoueMado]

There is a way to make a multiplayer focused game as Star Allies work It has been done with Kirby before And it was not done by Hal, but by Flagship Kirby and the Amazing mirror shows another side of the design filosophy of Star Allies Collectibles are not required to advance really, you only have to get to the switch's areas to unlock paths Multiplayer is a big focus of the game, and you can always have 4 players on the screen But there is a main difference in the way they were executed To begin with, Amazing mirror is the only open world Kirby game (Well, I think it would be categorized as more of a metroidvania) This means that, while the game does not reward you to go out of your way to search collectibles, the game litterally forces you to go out of your way to advance in the game (In a more similar manner to the 3DS Kirby games and KATFL), you have to take different paths to unlock new sections of the world and to make exploration easier Not only that, but every now and then you will have to change your copy ability depending on the area you are in, because entire sections are made around specific copy abilities Also, yes, multiplayer is a big factor of Amazing mirror's design, but the key to what Flagship did right is that they did not at any point make those mechanics feel intrusive "Hey, perhaps are you in a pinch?, you can use your phone to call upon some help if things are getting though" "Don't you worry about the AI though, they will all go on their own way when they are finished helping you" "You want to play with friends?, don't you worry, just connect to another gameboy and get onto bussiness" The level design is not zoomed out, it is as claustrophobic as it can get sometimes, because they know that there is no reason to make it way too open, and if the zone you are in is open, there is always going to be something stopping you from exploiting that You don't require the cpus to complete the game, despite that, they are always there It is up to you whether you want to have or not a friend by your side, instead of being forced every now and then to get friends and then get punished because you wanted to do things alone Star Allies could benefit a lot from ideas like these Your friends should be there for you if you don't feel like you are strong enough to deal with what is in front of you, they sould not babysit you The only flaw that Amazing mirror has is its lack of moveset for any ability that isn't Sword or Fighter, and Star Allies, although it does it better, does often invalidate elemental abilities, which was a mayor design flaw

[@YourRulerKingDedede]

This man sounds exactly like how nerd pacman looks