How LONG were they STRANDED in the SNOW? | Citation Needed | 3/4 Show S3e5

[@PendragonDaGreat]

You missed a really funny factoid, one of the locals helping with the rescue was (supposedly) an escaped German POW! Georg Gaertner was born in Poland, fought in the Afrika Corps before getting captured by the Brits and sent to a POW in New Mexico. After the war he knew he would be repatriated into Poland, but didn't want any of that now that Poland was a communist state beholden to Stalin. So he snuck out, hopped a freight train to California, worked odd jobs before taking on an assumed identity. He worked as a ski instructor in the winters and according to his autobiography was part of the rescue team. In the 80's he told his wife (and the world) the truth about his identity, and the FBI and Immigration decided not to charge him with anything for various reasons (mainly in that even while there was still a manhunt for him, the FBI had come to the correct conclusion in that he didn't want repatriated and he was considered not dangerous). He eventually became a US Citizen in 2009, and then passed away in 2013.

[@Hyce777]

Oh wow! That's a crazy story. Thank you for adding the extra detail!

[@buckduane1991]

Truth is often stranger than fiction!

[@JohnNack]

The history guy has an excellent video on this

[@RailfanDylan4004]

@@JohnNackcan you share the video link please

[@JohnNack]

@@RailfanDylan4004 kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJbGd5KEeryYh5osi=UyF-tArrNbc8T6An

[@kollinspencer847]

bev is the real reason people watch this show

[@realcanadian67]

Exactly.

[@yes8593]

Yes

[@K.S.V_railway]

Reminder of the hill shit on the rio grande southern

[@frantasramota1359]

Bev.

[@BrooksMoses]

To answer Goose's question at 20:15 a bit more accurately: In effect, they did have shays! The SP rotaries were built by Lima, and, at that time, were powered by shay boilers and piston units. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, they got essentially *every rotary plow they owned* stuck, except for the one backup plow on the rescue train from Sacramento. One particular problem was that the initial plow trains only had plows on the front, and so when one of them got to a point where they couldn't progress forward, they got stuck trying to back up because the snow was coming down so fast. (This is, IIRC, why the SP and now UP have a policy of always running their rotary plows in double-ended trains.) The plow trains at the time were powered by 4-8-8-2 cab-forwards.

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

now that's the details we want to see!

[@sawyerawr5783]

four of the six plows assigned to donner were stuck at the train, two were down in Sparks just fighting to keep the line to Truckee open. there was one in Roseville that literally ran out of water in the passing siding at Emigrant Gap (after taking water at the plugs for the helpers like a mile away...should tell you how hard they were bucking snow). the last one was so banged and beaten up it could barely steam, and it was constantly trying to burn a bearing as they came uphill. took a herculean effort and they literally ran out of lube oil keeping the bearing cool (they had to hike up to one of the stranded rotaries to get more)

[@trainzguy2472]

BTW all the snowplow trains and some of the rescue trains were powered by 4-8-8-2 cab forwards. Some trains had 2. Edit: The "fumes" leaking from the cars and poisoning people was carbon monoxide. By this time, a rotary and cab forward had arrived on the scene but were unable to pull the train out. The cab forward was used to provide steam heat to the train but the exhausts on the cars were clogged so that carbon monoxide generated by the steam heat and people breathing couldn't escape. It should be noted that this whole debacle occurred on the eastbound track, despite the fact that the streamliner was traveling westbound. The previous day's City of San Francisco got stuck on the westbound tracks but got towed out, backed up, and went down the eastbound main instead. The westbound main was still closed because a rotary train with 2 cab forwards had derailed while trying to clear it. All but one of SP's entire plow/rotary fleet got stuck during this incident. Part of SP's problem was that plow trains only had the plow on one end, so they would get stuck trying to back up. This changed after that. Even to this day, Union Pacific rotary trains on Donner Pass always have one rotary on each end.

[@slanderedstone]

God the intro never gets old, this series is awesome

[@realcanadian67]

Freddie got injured (great success) (This is a joke, for anyone who thinks I would be happy for someone getting injured who clearly didn't do anything horrific and horrible and scummy)

[@Sleeper____1472]

hiiiiiiiiiiii slandered

[@KPen3750]

I remember seeing the brief version of this story in the southern pacific film “Snow on the Run.” And it is honestly a fantastic film!!! Quick edit: not only was the SP big, but they had been dealing with the snows on Donner pass for decades and knew how to handle it, but this season was THE largest on record so even they were overwhelmed

[@bakkus82]

I laughed way too hard at how much a tip of the hat "The difficulties are technical" is!

[@WMRRFIREBALL]

Hyce, Lots of fun here with your episode. This was a story that would not have such a good outcome today. There would be a riot. Earlier this year (January 10th?) an Amtrak train was detoured and stopped due to a freight train accident further down the road. The train was stopped for ~20 hours. People were calling 911 and said they were being held hostage because they were not allowed to exit the train. Because safety isn't a good reason. And the crew timed out and passengers thought the crew should just go on, like they were more important than the crew's jobs. People are so disconnected from reality because of being so connected to to social media. (She says typing in a KZbin comment.) Anyhow looking forward to the next 3/4 season.

[@Hyce777]

No kidding. Times have certainly changed.

[@jaysmith1408]

Given the locomotives we’re hauling a rolling hotel, couldn’t the operations crew go to the crew dorm for their reset? I mean, when the highway was closed due to a wreck (conveniently the truck directly ahead of mine), after checking on the guy, I went to the bunk and got half my hours reset while it was cleared. I can’t see any reason why a crew, advised of at least a significant delay, would willingly avoid going to the dorm.

[@josephchavez91]

What was on the rescue trains were spreaders, Southern Pacific Cab Forward steam locomotives, and finally at least 1 rotary snow plow. There is also a photo of one of the cab forwards actually stuck in the snow

[@sawyerawr5783]

there's photos of all three ACs and four plows stuck in the snow.

[@PowerTrain611]

Imagine closing a major highway in the winter. *Stares intently at Highway 50* This is one reason why the Tennessee Pass tracks and infrastructure in Salida and surrounding area still exist(and are kept in "good enough" condition) even though they're no longer in use... the only possible evac route would be by rail when there's snow!

[@BrooksMoses]

I-80 (which is what it is now) still closes every so often in the winter. And tire chains are required through the pass pretty regularly.

[@sambrown6426]

One of the few times the man actually does something to help people instead of overwork them half to death while not paying them a living wage.

[@skylershummingbird1667]

The plows being used were steam rotary plows being pushed by Cab Forward articulateds.

[@sawyerawr5783]

there were F7 A-B-B-A sets on the hill, but they weren't rostered for the plows until after the cleanup started.

[@questionblechoices]

The "Quack" got me!

[@zachman1394]

I have actually heard a fair bit about this story. there is some footage floating around. most heavily of the rescue of the train itself. Crews had to pry the train free a few cars at a time because it was too stuck to pull free conventionally. More impressively this is (supposedly) the only train to become snowbound on donner during SP's Rulership of the roost. I knew about this story in advance, so I was pleasantly surprised to see that lovely orange PA nose drowning in snow. This incident was absolutely up in Donner Pass proper.

[@cadence4527]

Quick bit of information about that Pass and snow. For the first few minutes of snow fall, it is what one could consider to be powder. Due to California’s unique climate, the top layers of snow start to melt and then freeze amidst the lower layers of snow, forming what locals refer to as Sierra Cement. It is hard, it is cold and it will break rotary snow plows if not handled with extreme care. It is a slow and methodical process of clearing tracks with the rotary. Moving forward, stopping, backing up, then proceeding forward, rinse, repeat. Our local news did a short segment on the rotary snow plow one year. There are some long portions of track that are covered by snow sheds, but not a lot is protected. Also, the highway is some distance away, clear across the canyon from the tracks. When wintertime hits and snow falls upon that pass, it can, it has and it may yet again claim lives. Not too long ago, the snow was so thick, that traffic and people were trapped on the mountain for 3 whole days. Fun fact for you Hyce, the rotary snow plow engine is a very special diesel locomotive that blows what I believe is a three chime whistle. Echoing off the mountains, it gives the Pass an eerie feel to it.

[@jackpeterson6540]

I HAVE BEEN STUCK IN THE SNOW.. I was called as a Soo Line Locomotive Engineer for a snow plow from Superior, WI to Glenwood, MN. Just West of Holdingsford, MN there was an elevated embankment about the height of the engine with a field on top to my right. The wind had been blowing across the field picking up loose dirt and all the blowing snow, depositing it on the railroad right of way. We had a Russel Snow Plow (181) and a GP9 for power and of course a Caboose. There was a farm road crossing just short of the drift which the Roadmaster had me stop at. The Conductor, two Brakeman and the second plow operator disembarked the train. We then nosed into the drift to prevent the nose of the plow from riding up the incline of the drift at plowing speed. The Roadmaster then asked for a 120 pound train line and to backup far enough to be able to hit the drift at 50MPH. The plow has wings on each side, a set of bars the cut grooves for the wheel flanges to be unimpeded, especially at road crossings and a flanger that clears out between the rails. These are all air operated. At plowing speed all the windows are blocked by flying snow. Most of the time you cannot see in any direction. Your operating by the speedometer only. We took off. I didn't make the 50mph but closer to 40 instead. The Roadmaster called out the distance, 300, 200, 100, 50, then we hit and everything in the cab that was loose slide, or hit the front wall of the cab. The snow blew the front glass in the storm window right out of the gasket. Luckily I had closed the inside windows. We were unable to back out of the drift. We uncoupled from the plow after the Section Crew shoveled out to get at the angle cock. Then a couple of hours shoveling the plow out. We made it threw the second time but the Roasmaster wanted a slower speed over the farm crossing. Seems we tore some of the crossing planks out the first time as it was pretty rough in the plow. My thoughts at the time was what the old timers told me, that the Russel Snow Plows when they derailed had a tendency to turn around 180 degrees and take off the front of the engine. Who says Railroading can't be fun, eh! Pictures at hoghead dot net. WHAT IT”S LIKE TO GO THRU A BIG DRIFT. Headed West at Greenwald, MN with two F-7's and a hundred empty grain hoppers. Wind blowing, snow storm , limited visibility. All of a sudden all the windows were blocked with no light visible. Inside the cab the lights from the control stand gauges was all that you could see. Kind of an yellow glow. You could hear the chunks of snow going over the top of the engine. The sound was muffled like you were inside a cardboard box and someone was slowly crumpling it. Then it was back to the wind blowing, snow storm , limited visibility.

[@LunaGen-eh1ws]

The fact you remember this VIVIDLY is beyond me, but dear god does that sound agonizing

[@MachRacer4]

The UP City trains weren’t run between the UP, SP and the Rock Island. All UP Pool trains; like the City of SF, City of LA, and City of Portland; were operated by the SP from Oakland to Ogden, the UP from Ogden to Omaha, and at the time (until 1955) the Chicago & Northwestern the rest of the way to Chicago. The UP never had an agreement with the Rock Island. And after 1955 the partnered with the Milwaukee Road.

[@circuitgamer7759]

I think next season should start with a lime battle where you all just throw limes at each other for a while to make up for this season's lack of limes.

[@austinniederjohn9813]

I hope another season happens if not I will be upset because this show make me laugh and helps with my depression

[@RadicalKattastrophe]

Thanks for the entertainment guys!

[@chandlerbranchrailfanprodu5928]

Ya know this inspired the Thomas and Friends story "The Deputation" because in that story, Henry is pulling a passenger train and gets stuck in an avalanche and Donald and Douglas rescue him. So we have the Storm of 1952 to thank for inspiring Thomas. Also, I have MSTS DLC based on this except I lost it due to a HDD Wipe.

[@brucethebatcat5084]

I knew it! I knew exactly what this would be about! I have some more photos of it if you'd like.

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

Precision scheduled getting stuck in the snow I checked this on google maps way more times than I should have, Norden is just west of the exit of the tunnel that bypasses the route of the Central Pacific over Donner Pass Ah yes *snows* *sh1t gets stuck* *the Army gets sent in* As I recall from seeing old black and white footage, at least one of the rescue trains was lead by a Cab Forward. Best part: this story takes place literally TWO WEEKS AFTER the story about 491 getting stuck in snow. *ah for JUUUST. ONE. TIME. I would TAKE THE NORTHWEST PASSAGE...*

[@BrooksMoses]

What Hyce neglected to mention was the followup to that: the Army got stuck. Or, at least, they couldn't get to the train with their vehicles.

[@NicoDaycon]

We (GGRM) have the last car on that train, RPO 5901 (a UP car). When we were at Niles Canyon, it was used as the Niles post office on several occasions. The interior was never changed so it is all original complete with the gold ingot dents in the floor.

[@Traindude_Steamedition]

This season might not've had limes but atleast it had Bev

[@briancox2721]

Starting with a facing cut is is tradition. Chamfers separate us from the animals.

[@sawyerawr5783]

Not trying to be that guy...But I highly recommend the book Snowbound Streamliner. there's about 5 inaccuracies I've found in this so far that the book would clear up. There's also a LOT of detail that's missing here...like the fact four rotaries and three AC Cab Forwards were literally snowed in WITH the train by the end. and Engineer Raymond was literally buried UNDER one of the rotaries that took the hit from the slide. it rolled over on him. Also fun fact, as the train was trying to leave Norden (Donner Summit), the engineer had to literally keep the PAs at Run 8, and he was only making 15mph DOWNHILL.

[@joshbowers2089]

I spat out my lunch when Goose said Quack

[@bluescrew3124]

Also, the dial tone during the lemon explanation was hilarious

[@TheInternationalHarvesterMan]

3:53 I need a clip of just Mark getting Northwest passaged by the boys

[@skylershummingbird1667]

For those curious, 790 inches of snow pounded the Sierra Mountains that winter.

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

damn, that's Canada levels of snow.

[@BrooksMoses]

Yup. And, as the UP management discovered when they took over from the SP management and said, "oh, we know how to deal with snow; we do that all the time in the northern midwest" -- Sierra snow is different, because it's not umpty degrees below zero. The snow is wet, and it freezes solid. The SP called it "Sierra concrete."

[@Drockthe3rd]

I feel like for the next season, for a Citation Needed episode, it'd be fun to cover the Royal Gorge War. It's when the Santa Fe and the Rio Grande went to war over who could build in the Royal Gorge

[@tobinrowe9558]

We got one of the rotaries used in the rescue here at the CSRM: SPMW 205. Makes for some really neat interpretation stories. I believe this remains our worst winter on record. Part of the reason why the rescue attempts were hampered so much was due to the nature of our snow. Sierra snow is a bit more wet than in other places, meaning that its heavy, sticky, and dense. I've heard the term "Sierra Cement" used to describe the snow up there.

[@parkerbrewer1257]

I just found your channel a few days ago and this evening I stumbled upon this series. I've only watched one or two so far but this is amazing. I've loved trains ever since I can remember, and citation needed/two of these people are lying are some of my favorite things on youtube. I've watched them through several times. You have taken my favorite youtube series and made it focused on one of my favorite topics. Needless to say, you have made my week. Loving your content so far, thanks for making these videos. PS: The Top Gear style into is a real nice touch.

[@justanotherghost4589]

The intro really makes me wanna see Top Gear with the OG trio, but with trains.. damn

[@RailPreserver2K]

Oh my god imagine if you ask Jeremy Clarkson of them to actually help with voicing at least one of these that would be hilarious

[@skylershummingbird1667]

Fairly confident it was me. The RGS debacle had reminded me of my college thesis on the City of San Francisco.

[@BrooksMoses]

I also suggested it on Discord after the show on the RGS debacle, but Hyce told me to stop giving away spoilers for the (already-filmed) season finale. ;)

[@Zimmzamm]

The southern pacific records that I’ve been able to find say that the rescue trains were each a cab forward steam locomotive with a Rotary on each end

[@Alleghemer]

14:41 idk if this is a reference to “there goes a train” but it it was I love it and hits me right in the childhood and something I think you should definitely react to at somepoint if you haven’t seen it

[@railfanjamie6147]

My mother grew up in Truckee, and I know the Sierras well. The amount of snow in this story does not surprise me at all. Honestly I was thinking it would be way higher.

[@k4hun4]

omg the intro is just WOW

[@davidwhiting1761]

I was waiting for this story!

[@BandanRRChannel]

And it can still happen today! In 2019 the Coast Starlight got stuck in snow in Oregon for 36 hours before it could be dragged back to Eugene. I would not want to be on either of those trains.

[@rambling_railfan]

Love the Top Gear intro parody 😂

[@_Danda_]

WOOO, CHOO CHOO TRAINS!!!

[@bassman87]

Norden is right on Donner Pass, which means they were only a few miles past Truckee. They keep a rotory in Truckee to clear the pass. so seems odd that they were stuck for so long.

[@FreihEitner]

Okay, I just started watching this video and I'm giving thumbs-up just for the classic Top Gear style opening! :-)

[@toboterxp8155]

The poison gas thing sounds like carbon monoxide from the coal stoves.

[@robertclark6349]

There were propane heaters on some of the cars. The exhaust vents became plugged with snow and caused carbon monoxide poisoning.

[@sebastianrb-robloxandmore8396]

Some uncouth jabrony froze the toilet, requires attention

[@KatyPacific382]

As soo as i saw the Southern Pacific Alco PA in the thumbnail, i already knew *"Just another day on Southern Pacific"*

[@buckduane1991]

Sounds like they could’ve really made use of a 1929 Fordson Snow Machine in those 25’ deep drifts… you should look it up, Hyce! It was a conversion for tractors or even Chevrolet cars the guy invented in 1929.

[@Ian-qs3fz]

I fucking love brett. I know absolutely about the man but he just kicks ass. Ultimate bro material.

[@richardjayroe8922]

Fun fact, this incident was recorded on a company documentary called: Snow on the run

[@robertdoench6237]

I actually have a book on how to repair a injector pipe on a steam locomotive

[@NSProductions-jt5sh]

Leighton was incorrect it wasnt the Rock island it was the cn&w until 1955 then it was the Milwaukee road from 1955 to 1971

[@RGS20Productions]

Love you're videos keep it up 👍

[@Dan_Gyros]

Wild story! but how good!

[@TheRealHooptiesOfGeneseeCounty]

Stan Rogers GOAT

[@potato21206]

So when is the rotary plows 101

[@Hyce777]

One of these days... lol

[@BNSFandSP]

It was a joint train, but not with the Rock. IIRC, this run would have been carried on the C&NW between Chicago and Council Bluffs. The Milwaukee Road had the train in later years (I wanna say the switch happened in 1954 or '55), and as a result the Hiawathas went yellow.

[@True_NOON]

The intro is more top gear than any season past 27/GT

[@OfficialDenverRioGrandeWestern]

The SP had to much RGS last night

[@TSMGL_Youtube]

A intriguing topic to end off the season! Also maybe a lime throwing session in the future for this season 🤔🤔🤔

[@bacare1971]

Yellow limes are the best! Ripe key limes (limons in Mexico(and 7up)) are yellow.

[@LunaGenYT7905]

I know I jokingly mentioned it in an earlier episode but I'm not too sure-

[@laminatedsamurai]

Why do you deal with these people? Bev. Bev is why.

[@domwheatley6932]

Did you record all the episodes in one night?

[@Hyce777]

Yup.

[@Ostermond]

AND WE'RE BACK!

[@WhiteStar1222]

As a native Bay Area ish resident Oakland has just been its own kinda thing

[@BrooksMoses]

Yup. To be fair, this was specifically going to the Oakland Mole (why the "Mole"? I have no idea), now known as the east end of the Bay Bridge. At the time it was a major ferry terminal going to San Francisco, as well as terminus for lots of trains and trolleys.

[@WhiteStar1222]

@@BrooksMoses that is true

[@ELDRGW]

Top train

[@brookslucero8877]

Is anybody just watching the Pen the entire time?😂

[@kholdanstaalstorm6881]

These videos are so interesting and fascinating to watch, filming from the bachelor pad when?

[@Hyce777]

We actually have two episodes for season 3.5 in the can already.

[@kholdanstaalstorm6881]

@@Hyce777 Ohh, I can feel the hype taking hold! Hopefully it's available sooner than 4 months from now, but you can't wait too long for something this good! Please say there's limes for this season, I fully understand Leighton and his reservations on the subject at his pad, but it's such a staple now it's like a vital part is missing. Thank you for the reply Hyce, now I have to figure out how I can sleep tonight with these exciting news!

[@railroadactive]

Did the shop foreman not like limes thrown in the roundhouse?

[@ShadowDragon8685]

At 2:30 seconds, how many people immediately looked at their Discord? I did.

[@legdig]

I wonder why the go pros were not working properly, its not as if they were put into the draft of a firebox or anything like that!

[@The_New_IKB]

F for the cameras!

[@Satchmoeddie]

Donner Party of 23, er uhm, make that party of 18 and we're not really all that hungry anymore.

[@daniellewis1789]

I feel like you undersold just how much equipment the Southern Pacific managed to RGS during this fiasco!

[@WhiteStar1222]

Man I remember learning this story from Nicks channel from MSTS a few years ago

[@josefbueter8029]

You should change this into a spotify podcast

[@ProtonTheProtogen]

I don't think you ever did a video on the rotary you guys have up at the museum

[@davidbowers4828]

Watch it Hyce you need to do this

[@brianburnes3470]

When all the discord alerts went off, I immediately opend MY discord...

[@osageorangegaming5128]

Lesson of S3 of the 3/4 Show: a good way to traumatize Hyce is for 3/4 of one idiot to sing "Northwest Passage"

[@OutbackCatgirl]

blondihacks is heckin cool

[@yukonxl5723]

very yes

[@emilyaston4348]

So what’s your opinion of trains magazines? Do you read them or are you to occupied with work to read them?

[@ostsan8598]

I didn't know Snowpiercer was based on a true story.

[@bluescrew3124]

Northwest Passaged Yet Again

[@aritapper4279]

I stand by my comment on the previous 3/4 show: Hyce desperately needs to listen to Northwest Passage.

[@weird1012]

Woo more content

[@tritanicwolf518]

10:14 what is he referencing?

[@m686_21]

W intro

[@anthonyj.adventures9736]

Nickel plate road #190 is a new addition to steamtown in Scranton PA as is big boy 4012 who sits on static display in the parking lot. But that PA stuck in the snow reminded me of NPR190. Tits nipples and applesauce.

[@LMR78]

Ye have been northwest passage’d

[@ethanheska7044]

You should get ellis to colorado for season 4

[@bobschuon5908]

Moral of the story: Get real cameras for long episodes!

[@jaysmith1408]

Thirteen miles from Norden, and they ran out of fuel in twenty four hours? I guess HEP really puts a load on things. And it’s pronounced Nye (rhymes with Eye) Ack (like back).

[@cerneysmallengines]

Hate to be the "WELL ACTUALLY" guy, but a genomic study of the lemon indicated it was a hybrid between bitter orange (sour orange) and citron. So...

[@Redshirt214]

The weirdest thing is, I was reading about the strange taxonomy of citrus earlier, because hololive’s Fuwamoco mentioned Dekopon in their stream and now I’m beginning to wonder what odd threads of reality have been warped together! Also citrus have just the most confusing numbers of varieties! And I need to consume more of them. For science!

[@JDevine687]

TONOIT ON BOTTUM GEA MATES!

[@theromanorder]

please do a video on the porters steam loco the class 48 tank engine the Japanese class d51 nick name hero of the railways. how do gear trains work something on saddle bolier and side tanks (like the big boxes) tank engines one talking about the different types of steam funnles and there uses, a short video on how a Armstrong turn table works why are some trains wagion tops (the stream lining thing to boilers) one on the meaning of flag and lantern colors like green on rear engine means theres another one coming soon, one talking about the vacume and steam breaks on a steam train, or an evaluation of train breaks different train pilots on the front (and on back ive seen some) how dose a lubrecater work (diesel and steam locos) how do emergency brakes work the different types of cut offs/reversers/Johnson bar some are a big lever, some are a big valve wheel, and ive also seen some that are like rods, one exsample is train sim world 3 and im not sure where to find the other reverser

[@erikunderbar4265]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@pinnedthrottle7690]

Nyack is pronounced nye-yak (think bill nye and yak like the animal) :)