How Many Orcs were at the Battle of Minas Tirith - Part 1 (Lord of the Rings)

Whenever I see the battle of Minas Tirith I think 2 things: 1) this is AWESOME! 2) How many Orcs are there? In this video, I answer how many orc's where there to the best of my ability.
I used quite a bit of geometry to figure this out, but don't worry - I show all the math on the screen too.
#lotr #minastirith #math #mathisfun

[@causeseffects6573]

do a vid about legolas' arrow supply.

[@navindavoodi6065]

lmao

[@schorsch-is6kv]

it isn't neccessary and it's very difficult to say. If you read the books, you would see, that he use orc arrows while he is running out of own one. Plus we se not all his fighting scenes (maybe 30% or lower) and we can only speculate, how many he uses in this time!

[@samsunguser3148]

@@schorsch-is6kv yeah, lookimg around for some arrows after a battle

[@todalio9238]

this

[@michaelweston409]

There’s way more than 35,000 troops. The size of the army from those above shots is massive. I’d say at least 100,000 troops

[@kasozar3800]

Michael Weston it was actually 200000 troops look it up

[@sonofjack6286]

@@kasozar3800 at least

[@mrhalfwit972]

around 300,000

[@Mortablunt]

I thought the implication (if not said directly), was that there wer 100,000 orcs in Mordor.

[@michaelweston409]

Mortablunt Id say there were well over a million or more orcs in Mordor. Did you see some of the beginning clips of Mordor form the movie. It’s basically a country in its own right with its own cities & population zones. Probably in the millions.

[@sonofjack6286]

There was a minimum of 200k. Not counting for Easterlings, Haradrim, Riders from Khand, Corsairs from Umbar and traitor troops. Sage to say there were at a minimum of 350k to maybe half a million at most. I'd say maybe 350-375k.

[@medalgear654]

Behind the scenes said there were 600 000 orcs, not including the easterlings.

[@ForcedfedFords]

Yes but that was at the battle of the last alliance, behind the scenes Peter Jackson said between 200,000 - 350,000 were at Minas Tirith.

[@pavelslama5543]

That number is still far from what is actually shown on screen. Even the biggest block formation (on the middle of the screen, slightly to the right) right in the middle consists of cca 5000 orc (cca 20x250 orc). If the army is made of 250 000 orcs, that middle block formation would be about 1/50 of the army. However, that army has only 6 visible formations of similar size (maybe 10 if we really push the numbers of unseen formations very high). And those huge formations would contain about half of the orc on screen. So in the end, I think that there are between 50 000 and 100 000 visible orcs in 1:15 scene. 250 000 orc? Maybe during all the Return of the King movie. 600 000 orc? That would be far more than the total number of any soldiers during a whole trilogy.

[@nahelonvalar4209]

@@pavelslama5543 idk man. There was a massive Rock concert in Moscow in 1991. (around the fall of the USSR) Metallica, ACDC and Pantera were playing. Anyway, I would say the shots of the people at that concert looked fairly comparable to the Areal shot of this Battle. At this concert there was at least 500,000 people with some outside estimates being up to 1.5 million. There are way more than 35,000 orcs in this shot regardless. 35,000 people does not look that gigantic

[@cameronbergen4848]

Quite certain he said 200,000 at pelennor fields.

[@periodic98]

Ricky Castle so sarumans army of 10,000 was basically nothing lol

[@eekaygames]

Lets not forget Rohan’s 6000 cavalry trampled a good portion.

[@filipmakarowski]

EK Productions cavalry throughout history has always had a devastating effect on infantry. The speed and power which the Rohirim hit the orcs with would devastate any armies

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Also They didn’t seem to Have much cavalry on the Mordor side

[@N-M-S-i2w]

That was the number said when they originally arrived to the mountainside and then Theoden mentioned more will come so probably more than that

[@reganbraid2171]

Peter Jackson said 10 thousand

[@Ashtonlegoguy]

@@ItsButterBean1020 they would've had but guess they didn't manage to fit them into the budget

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

there lucky there not fighting the book Gondorians, damn in the books the gondorian soldiers are great warriors, a gondorian soldiers in the book can take three orcs on alone. the films made the gondorians leak weak in one on fighting.

[@thomasbarbosa625]

They were overwelmed i saw many gondorians in the battle killing orcs just to get attacked from another not even 1 second after killing the previous one they were not weak they were just outmatched if you pay attentiin to when the gates are open and orcs are flooding in the gondorions start recking them just to get killed by trolls

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@thomasbarbosa625 yeah in one scene, there is being overwhelmed then there is what happens in this film.

[@Killerkunert-d9o]

The fisherman in Battle of 5 armies fought better, even the women xD

[@ManuelFernandez-nm4hy]

I mean, when the orcs breach the gates the first things to enter are like 8 armored trolls with spike maces, that would demoralize any formation of soldiers

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@ManuelFernandez-nm4hy actually if you ask me the gate scene was when the gondorians fought the best.

[@48162342]

Crazy how there were still so many orcs in Mordor afterwards

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Aragorn said there where 10,000 left.

[@blagoje7]

These orcs were from Minas Morgul

[@Will.Flavell]

That looks like a Quarter of a million Orcs

[@michaelweston409]

I’d say there were between 200-300,000 in Saurons army. A massive army by any standards

[@mfs-3kiryu592]

Saurons orc army according to tolkien is 4 milliob.

[@derdingsreturnsnochmal5177]

@@mfs-3kiryu592 I guess you're using outside sources? Meaning: not the LOTR-books, because I can't recall any numbers concerning the orc-forces from there.

[@sonofjack6286]

Yeah, I imagine the logistics would be a nightmare.

[@goodname6807]

Not in hoi4

[@abdellah7879]

@@mfs-3kiryu592 lol never

[@oldworldpatriot8920]

I read that it was 200,000-250,000~ orc foot soldiers/artillery/archers,as well as roughly 60,000 Easterling and Southron men as part of their Coalition.

[@platypusguineapig]

I think Peter Jackson said there were 200,000 orcs in the movie 18,000 haradrim ( book said they out numbered the Rohirrim 3:1) Easterlings not sure but they can be seen briefly when they enter the gates at Mina's tirith

[@josephmort4039]

I don't know if numbers are ever said, but I think in the RotK behind the scenes stuff, that they made 200,000 Orcs in Massive.

[@Sean-yk8he]

Peter Jackson states that some of the larger formations are 10,000 orcs, for the whole army you are looking at 200,000 + units easy.

[@nahelonvalar4209]

There was a massive Rock concert in Moscow in 1991. (at the fall of the USSR) Metallica, ACDC and Pantera were playing. Anyway, I would say the amount people at that concert looked fairly comparable to the Areal shots of the Minas Tirith Battle. At this concert there was at least 500,000 people with some outside estimates being up to 1.5 million. There are way more than 35,000 orcs in this shot either way. 35,000 people does not look that gigantic .

[@nahelonvalar4209]

@josephthemighty I have not dude there was 500,000 at least, that is the low estimate given by pretty much everyone. There are many stadiums in the world that have a capacity of 100,000 and the 91 Moscow Concert easily looks 5 times that.

[@abdellah7879]

@@nahelonvalar4209 i doubt it was 500000 Probably 200000-300000 max

[@brandonbaerga4972]

This battle is the only battle where you see Gandalf really upset like the faces he makes when the trebuchets start firing

[@mikealexander1935]

Its a lot easier to just use the books. The final assault on Mordor consisted if 3.5K drawn from the Minas Tirith garrison, 1K drawn from the Rohirrm, 1 K drawn from the men Aragorn came north with, and 0.5 K from the outlands. We know the number of Rohirrm (6K) and the Outlands (3K). From these we can note that the ratio of orginal troops to those used for the Mordor assault was 6. This means the orginal garrison of Minas Tirith was 3.5 x 6 = 21K and the number who came north with Aragorn was around 6K, or about 120 per dromon. So when you add the 4K could came north under Angbor the Fearless, these means the total reinforcements available after the threat from Umbar has neutralized was 13K, which with the 21K in Minas Tirth gives Gondor's army size at about 34K. To this was added the 6K from Rohan for a total war strength of 40K for the men of the west. Estimating the size of Mordor's forces is harder. The force that issued from Minas Morgul has been estimated at 35K (link). He assumed six men per rank across a 12 ft wide road with one rank per six feet. I would assume 5 men per rank (w ft per man seems a bit tight) but one rank per Roman pace, which works out to 5000 men per mile. Assuming a Roman military pace of 3.3 mph, this works out to 16.5K per hour. The estimator guessed 2.25 hours for the time to issue the force giving his 35K number. Now based on my calculation of 21K for the Minas Tirith garrison and Tolkien's comment that the city held only only half of the men who could be accomodated their suggests that the city would hold 42K troops. Assuming that Minas Ithil was about the same size, means more than 40K troops could be staged in the city at any one time, which is consistent with a 35K force. So I'll go with that. But Tolkein says it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth, suggesting that the forces sent by Mordor were at least 70K. I have have always gone with a 100K figure plus the human auxilliaries, as suggested by Mike Weston below. www.quora.com/How-large-was-Sauron-s-forces-at-the-Battle-of-Minas-Tirith

[@solarflaregaming5297]

Actually, as you look further from an area, the orcs will appear smaller than they did closer, so the number would probably be much more.

[@ragnar_septim6136]

if I recall correctly the Lord of the Ring Weapons and Warfare book (use to be sold at Barnes and Noble) has various descriptions of all the major battle include the Siege of Minas Tirith. I don't have the book anymore but if I remember correctly it said that Sauron's army was said to be at least 200,000 strong it also show a map it looks there were more armies coming from Minas Morgul besides the Haradrim because Sauron was expecting the Rohirrim to show up (which they did) but it is also possible he was expecting Aragorn to be with them not getting the dead to help fight. you can get the book from Amazon if anyone here is interested. the book also covers the Last Alliance as well, and gives good descriptions of the different armor and weapons used by all of the forces of good and evil. link to the book on Amazon below. www.amazon.com/s?k=The+Lord+of+the+Rings+Weapons+and+Warfare&ref=nb_sb_noss

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

in the book there was 200,000 thousand orcs, there where also a nice chunk of easternling, and haradarian as well about 50,000 i think.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Pelennor_Fields

[@gamingio9952]

I think it would’ve been cool if minas tirith was outfitted with ballistas to shoot the Nazgûl. Also, I remember seeing a behind the scenes video for this battle where Peter stated they made groups of 10,000 orcs and groups of 5,000 orcs. The number stated in the video was 300,000 to 330,000 orcs. 300,000 is a safe assumption.

[@michelecastellotti9172]

Ballistas were shown as being used by saruman's uruk-hai, its likely that only goblins and dwarves manifactured ballistas, maybe gondor didn't know of the fellbeasts

[@kyzr666]

In the behind the scenes they said there are 20,000 Uruk in Helms Deep. They included 20,000 digital figures in the scene. They even buy 20,000 miniature figures to have a scenes of the scale of an army of 20,000 soldiers. They said in the behind the scenes that what you are watching on screen it's an army of 200,000 digital orcs. 10 times bigger than Helms Deep army.

[@sirp7394]

I was sure it was 10k that went to helms deep

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

Without the air power of the Nazgul, Minas Tirith should have been able to hold out for quite some time. The biggest problem with the city's defenses is a lack of a moat, which allowed large siege towers to approach the city, and to bring in a really massive ram to wield against the weakest point, i.e. the gates.

[@nathanadams6168]

I’d say Gondor had more soldiers as well cause the trebuchets at upper levels and other soldiers still on upper levels of the walls

[@hboyvn]

i think gondor is about 8000-20000 the orc should be more than 10 times according to how to siege big stronghold like minas tirirh should be 300000 at least

[@darthwader4472]

Sauron is well known for exaggerating things. For instance, there were about 300,000 orcs at his inauguration, but he claimed there were millons.

[@GLoveJF]

😂😂😂

[@thorshammer7883]

Can you do a video on how many ships were involved in the battle of Coruscant in the Star Wars Clone Wars Volume 2 cartoon animation movie? Its part of the Expanded Universe.

[@CrazyKnuckles]

Wow, 40,000 views!!!! Thanks for all the support! Tomorrow, April 11th 2020, I'm releasing a follow up video to this one. In this one I used geometry, but in the next video I break things down using calculus to estimate the number of the orcs. And Yes, the number is MUCH larger.

[@chrisortega7521]

I think that the 4ish minute mark, that's more like 1/4 of the army, because that's just a flank force. The center is reenforced to probably twice the strength of the manipules (as a Roman army would have done). My guess is 100,000+ Orcs, if not 140,00, given the overwhelming size of the forces in the center force of Pelinor.

[@ThejollyFrenchman]

Is it just me, or is the idea of throwing ruined pieces of your own city back at the army attacking it kind of badass?

[@isaiahwolftail867]

I watched this before how do you not have a million views yet

[@PalaiologosKomnenos]

In a normal (medieval siege) the orcs if they were about 100.000 strong (example) and the gondorians about 6.000 - 8.000. I would say that gondor would definitly win, especially with at least 6 defensive layers with trebuchets. Gondor would have a 95% win chance , 5 % lose if the orcs would decide to starve the city out. An example to prove my point are the sieges of Constantinople 717/718 where the Romans survived the siege with 8000 men against an army of rougly 90.000 arabs. Because there are felbeasts, trolls and grond in the orc army it significantly boosts their chance of succes, 3 "sort of bombards" which brought many medieval walls down when they were introduced.

[@thorshammer7883]

If in Star Wars the Expanded Universe Turbolasers are 200 gigatons per shot but yet they don't act like explosive bombs like a Tsar Bomba are the Turbolasers concentrated shots that are armor piercing since it took Darth Malak a about a couple hours for his Sitg Armada to completely wipe out Taris's surface and would that mean armor on the Expanded Universe ships are extremely tough and durable?

[@Scottx125Productions]

If it was a normal siege than they could definitely have held. But in LOTR with the nazgul etc. All the walls did was cause enormous casualties to the Orcs and slow their advance. And to be fair that's all they needed to do, delay the fall of Gondor until reinforcements arrived.

[@kanadetachibana4130]

Good video, but I think you vastly undercounted the number of orcs in those formations. You can also assume probably 500 orcs in each of the siege towers since they were loaded up by the time they got to the city.

[@wilburforce8046]

I believe that one director's book said the siege army was around 200,000 and the Mordor reserve was 300,000.

[@didgorirising8553]

The orc army was way more. Sauron unleashed the whole of Mordor. I mean in helms deep alone Saruman send 10,000 of Uruk Hai which was only prepared in a short time. Sauron Had regular orcs and bunch of different orcs. Saurons army total was at least 300,000 to 500,000 thousand. Sorry bud. Thanks for doing the video anyways.

[@wringster8289]

He released very little of Mordor. The main of the army was the host of Morgul, and some forces from harad. Easterlings were present as well, and a reasonable amount of those from Mordor. However, when Sam and Frodo arrived in Mordor, the whole valley was filled with orcs and men, at least between Orodruin and the mountains of shadow.

[@Decrepit_biker]

To paraphrase the book ... the Morgul host was just one and not the greatest of Mordors hosts. I belive the number was around 200,000 orks plus the Haradrim ect. This guy Is way out .

[@fjLKA]

200,000 as per the Two Towers dvd behind the scenes. I've known that since before the movie was released. It's kind of a unit of measurement for me. 200k troops is one Minas Tirith army.

[@lordmisanthrope1949]

Sauron sent two massive armies with the largest to Minas Tirith of about 300,000 orcs mostly Mordor, Morannon and Uruks, also men including the Easterlings and Harad. Then to make matters worse, a number of Olog-hai trolls were employed including some in plate armor and armed with large swords or maces. The second large army of mostly Easterlings of about 200,000 went to lay siege to Erebor and Dale in which King Dain II Ironfoot and King Brand fell but not before defeating the army.

[@Lasgoo]

I was here to hear the answer, but what i got was a full math lesson. Good Video.

[@ZecaPinto1]

In the 1st rampart section you can clearly see more than 57 people without even counting them. Measuring by pixels may be easier but its not acurate to measure the quantity of people in that space

[@antcow1239]

Is there a study guide you can link to me to show how do measure pixles like this? I want to know how to do that, because I want to do feat measurements for fictional characters.

[@kevinboudreaux7860]

True about having defensive positions, but that’s irrelevant when you’re up against trolls and felbeasts

[@filmingNgaming]

I think behind the scenes stated they built the army number to 100,000 troops.

[@1987MartinT]

Estimates I've heard range from 45.000-200.000.

[@adamleon8504]

this battle was completely different in the books

[@shintapeterson10]

What about the Rohirrim, how many were they in they got to Minas Tirith? Were they really just 6000 riders?

[@Will.Flavell]

They look like they had more than 6000 I say they had 12000

[@roger5059]

Could you please use meters instead of feet?

[@CrazyKnuckles]

In my latest, How many ships were at the battle of Coruscant, I used the metric system. Going forward, I plan to use the metric system a lot more in math videos like these.

[@roger5059]

@@CrazyKnuckles thank you

[@DMH62291]

After return of the king came out, Entertainment weekly or some magazine released a LOTR special edition and it said there were about 200,000 orcs give or take.

[@MaluluKeleGuiSila]

You’re smart, you can always ask Weta Digital “how many orcs were in pelenor fields”?

[@sdaftermath123]

There were 200k orcs according to the producers. This didn’t include Easterlings or harad. 4,000 gondor troops defended minas tirith, whipped out about 20-30k before they lost the city, and before 6,000 Rohan arrived. Rohan defeated about half of what was left before they decided to send in the mumakil, which was a nightmare of a matchup for the rohirrim. In the book I think there were only 60k orcs

[@trollkenobi6727]

It was probably 4000 Gondorians when the Rohirrim arrived. I'd say in the beginning there were 30,000 defenders

[@sdaftermath123]

@@trollkenobi6727 where do you get those figures? I think they had 30,000 in their entire military across all of Gondor, I think that’s where you’re getting your numbers from When Aarogorn and company marched to the black gate, they only had around 1200 soldiers of both gondor and Rohan who all survived the siege of Gondor. Again we’re talking about the films though.

[@trollkenobi6727]

@@sdaftermath123 The wiki had used to say that there was 600,000 orcs and 100,000 gondorian soldiers fighting in total. It probably would've been dwindled heavily by the time when the walls got taken

[@nazmaster1]

Half of these orcs army was inside the city by the time rohan showed up and in the lower city so assume about 200k orcs roughly where flanked by that massive balls of theoden

[@JamieFHarbert]

how many did the book say were in the battle

[@domzdaman373]

Just 35,000? I want you to look at a stadium. Like - Wrestlemania (if their numbers are not fudged too horribly) puts like 75,000 to 109,000 people in a stadium for the show. I can absolutely DEFINITELY say that the amount of orcs down there could fill MULTIPLE mega stadiums packed full. I respect your methods for getting your numbers - but your factors seem to be way off. (Edit for spelling)

[@WadcaWymiaru]

I believe Sauron army at Minas Tirith siege was 10 000 strong (not counting the monsters, animals and Easterlings) This is also the only number mentioned in the books and movie.

[@musabzerkavi1189]

I need to know for my future how many Orcs there are

[@ThePalaeontologist]

Sorry this is all wrong. There were at least 75,000 Orcs and Uruks in the Morgul Host, the Witch-King's army from Minas Morgul. Another army came down from the Morannon and took Cair Andros, then moved into Anorien beyond the Rammas Echor to block the way to Minas Tirith (Sauron obviously knowing about the Rohirrim) In the book the Rohirrim are guided by the Drúadan/Woses around ancient, forgotten trails, and avoid the force sent to slow them down or stop them (I'm not sure the army waiting for them was big enough to defeat the Rohirrim, but it must have still outnumbered them and was still comprised of elite Orc units that had made short work of Cair Andros) This does not include the Easterling, Haradrim and Variag contingents in the Mordor armies sent against Gondor, or of course the Corsairs of Umbar (scared off by the Army of the Dead at Pelargir to the South) 18,000 Haradrim cavalry of the Black Serpent Cavalry force, wielding red banners with black serpents on them, led by a great chieftain among the Haradrim, rode against King Théoden on the Pelennor Fields, outnumbering him 3 to 1. The Rohirrim crushed them in a shattering charge anyway, and King Théoden personally slew the Haradrim leader. This happened just before the Witch-King swooped in and fatally wounded Théoden. Then there were a couple dozen Mûmakil to deal with. There were at least a couple of legions of Easterlings present, though I think far fewer Easterlings fought in Gondor, with their main focus being to try to take Erebor in the Northern Campaign/War (of the Ring) in the North. Multiple shock legions and cavalry forces of the Easterlings would have gone after Dale and Erebor, whereas _some_ Easterlings were involved in the Siege of Gondor. How many exactly is hard to be clear on, though I'd say it was at least one or two legions. We know that the very last Mordor unit in good fighting order on the Pelennor Fields, was a legion of Easterlings whom stubbornly formed a shield wall phalanx at the end of the battle, guarding the road to the Rammas Echor and Osgiliath. They had to be slain to the last man by the Men of the West, because they utterly refused to leave and even as the battle deteriorated into a defeat and a rout around them, they stood firm (the Easterlings were arguably Sauron's best infantry, and were incredibly dangerous even to the Gondorians - having the 2nd best armour and weapons of all Third Age factions of men, behind only the Gondorians; they were no joke and seriously impressive in their own right. Problem being, they thought Sauron was a literal god and would die fighting in his name) The already bloody battle was made that bit worse for the Men of the West having to deal with them one by one. There are obvious differences between the books and the films. In general we could safely assume that the Orcs were almost always the majority contingent in a typical Mordor army. Arguably, the Mordor armies numbered between 350,000 - 500,000 depending on how we count their strategic reserves all over the map. Exact figures are simply not known for the true scale of Sauron's armies. But that is kind of the point; victory against Sauron is strategically impossible in the War of the Ring timeline, without the destruction of the One Ring. There is simply no way for Sauron to lose conventionally. The sacrifice and effort required to just destroy the Morgul Host and the evil men supporting it, was by itself nearly catastrophic for the Men of the West. Gondor was shattered, with fires smouldering out on multiple levels of Minas Tirith. Thousands of Gondorian soldiers were dead or dying. Many great captains and warriors of the fiefdoms of Gondor had been killed in action. Rohan's field army lost a third killed, and another third too injured to fight so shortly afterwards at the Black Gate. Only 2,000 went with Aragorn to the Morannon. Around as many were in the Houses of Healing with even more Gondorian troops. Who knows how many of their beloved horses the Rohirrim lost on the Pelennor (I'd estimate at least 2,500 to maybe up to 3,000) They were exhausted. While Gondor still had enough strength to fight another battle, Aragorn and Gandalf knew the White City could not survive another assault of the same scale, were it to happen shortly. Sauron had _at least_ 60,000 reserves on the ashfields of Gorgoroth Plains and in the Valley of Udûn, with arguably even more garrison troops at Durthang, Barad-Dûr and at the Morannon itself. They say 10,000 in the film for no real reason. We already know they had more and the shots of the Mordor army at the Battle of the Morannon shows way, way more than 10,000 just at a glance, stretching off into the valley behind the Black Gates. It would take about 10,000 just to properly encircle the 7,000 men Aragorn marched there, let alone show an army trailing off into the distance. Even then, Sauron had garrisons posted in East Mordor (mostly in Nurn) to guard his Eastern bordors. It is unlikely for example, that Durthang was completely emptied. Obviously we could include the garrison at Cirith Ungol but they wiped themselves out (with a bit of help from Samwise the Brave) Remember, these are just the armies in the South. Sauron had large armies at Dol Guldur, and possibly a sizeable garrison at Mount Gundabad (keeping Imladris/Rivendell marked strategically in the case of the Gundabad Orcs) Mordor's armies attacked Lorien _three times_ with heavy casualties and still had the numbers to simultaneously attack King Thranduil in Northern Mirkwood in the Battle-under-Trees, which saw Thranduil convincingly defeat the Dol Guldur army sent against them, in spite of serious damage being inflicted on their woodlands in the fires of war. Mordor also apparently sent a raiding force into Rohan though little is known about this, other than that the Ents and Rohirrim crushed it easily (presumably, it was a small raiding army from Dol Guldur, split off from the main force assaulting Lorien) Then we could assume there were still Misty Mountains Orcs/Goblins still knocking around in Moria and Goblintown, besides Mount Gundabad, though they were more feral and uncoordinated by Sauron, left to their own devices (though it is fair to point out that Sauron had sent many of the Orcs in those mountains there deliberately, to infest the Dwarven halls, centuries before; however, many Goblins hiding in the Hithaeglir were apparently refugees from the War of Wrath, seeing as they recognised what Glamdring and Orcrist were; Elven blades from the First Age, which they feared greatly, even over 6,000 years later; ''Foe-Hammer'' they remembered was Glamdring, and ''Orc-Cleaver'' was Orcrist) Clearly, the Gondolodrim Elves of the Noldor, had made the Goblins pay a heavy price in battle for them to be that traumatised by the very memory of their swords. King Turgon made them bleed, before and during the Fall of Gondolin. The very presence of so many Goblins and Orcs in and around the Hithaeglir, acted like a strategic barrier in it's own right. Moria was a total nightmare (even without the Balrog) and the Goblins often overran High Pass and other points along the mountain range. When Sauron had the "support" of Isengard, this essentially completed the picture across the map. From Isengard to Mount Gundabad, there was a line of evil forces only broken at Imladris/Rivendell, along that mountain range. This is really why (along with their numerical problems) the formidable Rivendell Elves largely had to stay right where they were (and even then, many would depart to Mithlond and on to Valinor) I think the few hundred (they had to have at least this many to even survive where they were on the map, any less would be laughable/impossible) to a thousand (tops) or so Noldor warriors with Lord Elrond bearing Vilya, had no other choice but to defend Imladris from the Goblins/Orcs and secondarily to act as a staging area for the Fellowship of the Ring. Thirdly, they helped shield the Shire and Bree from the East (largely without the Hobbits and Bree-men even realising, beyond the Fellowship Hobbits and Bilbo who would have known better after their experiences in the Hithaeglir) Strategically, the Free People's situation was a lot worse than I think some folks realise. Then there were the Dunlendings/wildmen of Dunland, Crebain and Brigands of Eriador, and other evil men across the map in league with Mordor acting as spies etc. Sauron also had many varieties of Olog-Hai/trolls, half-trolls, fell beasts, Wargs (and Warg riders; they weren't just an ''Isengard thing'' so to speak), nameless beasts from the South (e.g. the beasts that pulled Grond) and even a few surviving Black Númenóreans e.g. the Mouth of Sauron. All things considered, the addition of Saruman and his elite Uruk-Hai army to the list of problems facing the Free Peoples, was almost too much to cope with. Rohan barely survived Isengard, let alone Mordor. Had the Ents not destroyed Saruman's base of operations, he could have withstood a long siege there with enough Orcs to cause Rohan problems. Isengard had repelled the Rohirrim before in previous centuries, when Dunlendings used it against Rohan before Saruman the White arrived to make life easier for Rohan by keeping the wild men at bay himself with his own might; eventually, Saruman used that against the Rohirrim, generations later. The Isengard faction alone was on the verge of destroying Rohan. If this did happen, then I don't doubt that Saruman's next target would be either Galadriel in Lothlorien, or simply a general invasion of Eriador (maybe going after Elrond in Rivendell) That would essentially doom Middle-Earth there and then. Gandalf saving Rohan was as wise as it was necessary. I'd estimate the size of the forces to be as follows: (note these are not all canonical figures, just sensible best guesses) (continued below in a P.S reply)

[@ThePalaeontologist]

P.S [1/3] - *Numerical estimates* (note: not all figures are canonical, merely guesstimates as I say) *Sauron's true strength* - Morgul Host, *75,000 Morgul Orcs* from Minas Morgul. The dark city was practically emptied. Under the command of the Witch-King, they were a deadly force. Essentially the first into battle and the vanguard of the Mordor forces in the South. Somewhat of an elite force though Mordor had better. However, many would be trampled to death and cut down by the sheer force of the charge of the Rohirrim on the Pelennor, for all their viciousness. Arguably they inflicted the most damage on the Gondorian ranks at Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, yet were generally no match for the Rohirrim on the open fields (where the Rohirrim fought best) Letting the Rohirrim outflank them was a mistake hardly any of the Morgul Orcs survived. Ultimately, those not cut down on the Pelennor were driven into the Anduin as they fled, drowning. It's also worth pointing out their siege engines and catapults etc. They built a lot of siege equipment on the East Bank of Osgiliath, for use against Minas Tirith (though I think Grond came straight from the Dark Tower) It is possible that Morgul Orcs were involved in the First Battle of Osgiliath in the War of the Ring (when Boromir and Faramir repelled around 30,000 Orcs and secured the crossings) It was a deliberate diversionary attack to screen the Ringwraiths crossing over and riding to the Shire, upon learning of "Shire" and "Baggins" from (a tortured) Gollum. - Anywhere between 120,000 and *200,000 Orcish reserves* spread across the combined expanse of all of Western and Eastern Mordor. 60,000 _at least_ were in the Plains of Gorgoroth and the dark Valley of Udûn behind the Black Gates. They were very obviously being moved up to the front to go to war. Most of the Orcs seen attacking Gondor up to this point came mostly from Minas Morgul, which was technically in Ithilien, not Mordor; on the other side of the Ephel Dúath (Mountains of Shadow) That was one of Mordor's most formidable strongholds, yes; but it was still just one of them. Minas Morgul's army had done so much damage to Gondor, all by itself (though it was aided by the Southrons and some Easterlings etc) The irony was that the vast majority of the Orcs were still on the other side of the mountains. The Morgul Host was just the most well-poised and closest force to Gondor; indeed situated in lands formerly owned by Gondor (Minas Morgul used to be Minas Ithil; before the Witch-King took it in TA 2002, over a thousand years earlier) It is possible that the armies on the Plains of Gorgoroth would have moved into Gondor anyway, regardless of the outcome of the Morgul Host's attack, because, if Mordor won, then they'd likely move West and roll up the map, leaving other forces to occupy and fully control Gondor in their wake. Had the Witch-King survived, he'd have regrouped with more reinforcements and then went to Rohan, most likely. Very little would be able to be done then to stop him, apart from Gandalf himself jumping on a Giant Eagle and yeeting the Witch-King out of the sky (lol) No but seriously Gandalf would kick his spooky ass. But the problem is that his army would still overrun Rohan in that scenario. It is likely that the Durthang garrison and garrisons around the Sea of Nurnen, in East Mordor in the province if Nurn, were still very much in evidence, even as Aragorn arrived at the Black Gate. Then Sauron likely had a large army inside Barad-Dûr itself just as he did in the War of the Last Alliance. 60,000 or so as a rapid reaction force, 60,000 more spread out across the East of Mordor and as many dotted around his strongholds including Durthang and Barad-Dûr. 180,000-200,000 reserves inside Mordor, no doubt. The 60,000 directly behind the Black Gates cannot be all they had. It wouldn't make any sense at all. Look at the size of Mordor on the map and consider the need to garrison it. e.g. the elite legion of the Black Orcs of Barad-Dûr (Uruks) - 60,000 to *70,000 Easterlings of Rhûn* in my opinion, easily. There _had_ to be multiple legions. We know at least one was at Minas Tirith and the Pelennor Fields, and that an entire army of Easterlings took Dale and pushed the Dwarves and Men of Dale into Erebor, besieging it. I simply refuse to believe anything less than 50,000 Easterlings went after Dale and Erebor. It'd be too dangerous to do so without a seriously large force. Some say 200,000 Easterlings went to Dale and Erebor, but I think that is an exaggeration. It would likely have been a quarter as many, but perhaps as much as half - 100,000 is not impossible. However, I have no way to be sure about such a large number. 50,000-60,000 in the Northern Campaign seems a lot fairer considering the difficulties of feeding and supporting a large army in those cold lands in Northern Middle Earth, so far from most of the rest of the map. Taking 200,000 to Erebor sounds cool but it was probably not the case. That many should have taken Erebor three times over. No, it has to come down to a much larger number of Easterlings than were sent to Gondor, but no so many that it starts to become ridiculous. That said, I fully believe Rhûn was vast enough to supply over 100,000 warriors to Sauron if enough time and effort was put into gathering them. It's just that the practical needs of the war, allowed perhaps only a smaller fraction reach the West. I think around 10,000 were involved in the Siege of Gondor, whereas over 50,000-60,000 were in the North. That'd make a lot more sense. If an Easterling Legion had about 5,000 men, we could speculate 2 went to Gondor under the Witch-King's command, seconded to his forces of the Morgul Host as the Haradrim and Variags were. That would mean that the lion's share of the Easterlings went North to Erebor, which we know for sure they did (so we could argue that as 10 to 12 legions of the Easterlings going after two entire cities, Dale and Erebor; also possibly Laketown/Esgaroth, along the way) Esgaroth was immediately in the path of the Easterling army after it crossed the fords of the River Carnen, South of the Iron Hills. They surely had to have encountered Esgaroth (and possibly burnt it down) en route to Dale, before fighting the Men and Dwarves there for several days until they overran it. After that, they killed King Dain and King Brand, at the gates of Erebor, before besieging the surviving Dale-men and Dwarves. I simply don't think 10,000 or 20,000 would be enough to ensure the fall of both cities as well as Esgaroth. I think it had to be a bigger force. Remember, the Easterlings would have then likely been used to wipe out any and all resistance left in Mirkwood and all down the Anduin from the Vales of the Anduin to the Carrock, and from the Carrock to the borders of Lorien. They'd be taking losses along the way so it makes sense the army sent to take Dale and Erebor would be big enough to absorb heavy losses before moving on to attack new targets to the West and to the South. e.g. it makes a whole lot of sense for them to go after Thranduil, in a joint attack with Dol Guldur's Orcs. Considering how dangerous the Easterlings were to Gondor historically (more than once, wiping out Gondor's Northern Army in more than one disaster), the centuries of relative inactivity would account for a population increase and a new level of Easterling invasion forces, never seen before. It's way more than a few legions. They literally hate Gondor and Rohan passionately and have fought Gondor for millennia. There is simply zero chance they'd see it or take it lightly as a casual attack using small forces. They'd mobilise a large army. Sauron would clearly want as many as he could get. They were his finest troops. - *25,000 to 30,000 Southrons* from Harondor, Haradwaith, Near Harad, Far Harad and Khand (not including a separate force I'll list for Umbar) This covers the 18,000 Black Serpent Cavalry of the Haradrim, plus the Mûmakil riders and war tower archers. It also covers the Variags of Khand and the infantry and cavalry they'd have sent. How many they sent is unclear, hence the 5,000 range in the estimate. Could have been a few thousand, could have been more like 10,000. We know that there were Haradrim infantry, not just cavalry e.g. Haradrim archers and spearmen as seen in The Tower Towers in Ithilien alongside Oliphaunts, being ambushed by the Ithilien Rangers, as they were in the book. Realistically, a contribution reflecting the harsher climate and more difficult route into Mordor across the Harad Road crossing the rivers Harnen and Poros, before moving through Southern, Central and Northern Ithilien, would be smaller than the Easterling contribution, but still impressive in it's own right. We know there _canonically_ were around 20,000 of them in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields (not including the Variags) just looking at the Black Serpent Cavalry and Oliphaunt riders and crews etc. Clearly they must have had more in the form of infantry contributions as seen in the war bands moving through Ithilien to rally in Mordor. Only a fraction of their true numbers probably ever arrived in Gondor. However, we know that historically very large Haradrim forces had plagued Gondor in the past, as recently as the time of the Steward Ecthelion, father of Denethor. Going back further, many large armies marched on Gondor from Harad, and Rohan was sometimes involved in stopping them e.g. during the Battle of the Poros when two Princes of Rohan died fighting far from home helping the Gondorians stop the Southron invasion in their time, a couple of centuries before the War of the Ring. Therefore we know the Southrons were no joke. Let's face it, their Mûmakil probably caused the biggest death toll as a share of the kills, on the Rohirrim. It would make sense for 2/3 to 3/4 of the Southron forces to be cavalry. They came a long way. [will continue in part 2]

[@ThePalaeontologist]

[Part 2/2 of the estimations; well actually it turned out I need 3 parts to this bit] - *8000 to 10,000 Corsairs of Umbar* which would make a lot of sense considering the size and importance of Umbar historically, as well as the naval might associated with this piratical city on the Great Sea of Belegaer. Anything less than 8,000 wouldn't make any sense, to be realistic as a serious threat against Gondor. Anything less would in other words be weak and irrelevant, pretty much. 10,000 pirates dropping off in an already war-torn Gondor, by the less well-defended Southern Fiefdoms before heading off to Pelargir and Harlond, would not have been inconsequential. Indeed, that would have been utterly devastating. Aragorn was well aware of this, long before the war. Indeed, Aragorn was so concerned about Umbar specifically, that in his youth (aged 49; due to his heritage this _was_ still fairly young for Aragorn as he did end up living to over 210), in the year TA 2980 (the same year Gollum first encountered Shelob and the same year Théoden ascended to the throne of Rohan as it's seventeenth King, after his father Thengel passed away, for additional context), Aragorn - in his alter ego as "Thorongil", the "Eagle of the Star/s", a mysterious Northern wanderer - went to Gondor to plead with Ecthelion II the then Steward of Gondor (and father of Denethor, grandfather of Boromir and Faramir), to do something about Umbar. Aragorn was clearly aware of their strength, fearing what they could do to Gondor, either then or in future. Aragorn pleaded with him to give him a fleet so he could preemptively strike the Corsairs in their havens. Seeing the threat they did indeed pose, Ecthelion II agreed, giving Aragorn a small fleet (though possibly a big proportion of the declining Gondorian Navy at this time still in evidence) to go to assault the Havens of Umbar. Aragorn personally slew the Captain of Umbar, a leader among them, and burnt many of their ships at anchor, killing hundreds of Corsairs on the quays and tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Surprise_Attack_on_Umbar "Thorongil" had preemptively set them back decades, and it is possible they had not fully recovered 39 years later at the start of the War of the Ring. In the films, they act like he knew nothing about the Corsairs until Lord Elrond told him at the Muster at Dunharrow, encamped with the Rohirrim. Really, he'd known about them all his life, and had even gone to Umbar to attack them well in advance, to delay their risk to Gondor (though in fairness, Elrond probably had been responsible for educating him and making him that aware of the Corsairs, long, long before) Aragorn was basically on a secret mission from Rivendell to aid King Thengel of Rohan and Steward Ecthelion, in his youth, between the years TA 2957 and TA 2980. The attack on Umbar was his parting gift in a way to Gondor, saving them a lot of trouble. He won at Umbar with little loss. In Tolkien terms, it's like the Greyjoy Raid on Lannisport in Game of Thrones (but this time, by the good guys) We can only assume Aragorn learnt naval tactics in Gondor (lol, well, just how realistic it was for Aragorn to be a master at naval raids is debatable, seeing as he was mostly a ranger living as a survivalist in the outdoors, but oh well, he was long-lived and probably learnt it in Pelargir and Harlond) He struck hard and fast and was in and out before the Corsairs could rally and overwhelm his raiding fleet. Surely this implies his force was only a few hundred men of Gondor, and that they were in trouble if they stuck around too long. They left as soon as they'd burn the majority of the Umbar ships, it seems, knowing what they were doing and leaving in good order with minimal loss. Smart move. An army big enough to confidently assault the Gondorian coast and then dare to go to Pelargir and Harlond, must have been on enough ships with enough manpower to credibly threaten Gondor. Taking on the Fiefdoms of Gondor was not as easy as it might seem, due to the presence of other forces nearby potentially able to come back to aid them e.g. the Knights of Dol Amroth (some of Gondor's absolute most deadly fighters) 10,000 or so seems like a logical and reasonable figure. It just had to be the kind of force capable of doing all that. Any fewer would be incredibly risky. Seeing as they were going to go to Minas Tirith via Harlond, it does make sense for them to be so numerous. After all, Aragorn took their largest ships and filled them with reinforcements of the Fiefdoms and his small band of warriors from Eriador, the Grey Company (30 or so very elite Dúnedain Rangers of the North, dressed in fine grey garments and armour, who went to Gondor; and I know, a company is more like 100 men but I didn't write this lol 30 is more like a downsized and under-strength platoon but oh well) Seeing as Aragorn arrived with thousands of reinforcements, taking the already embattled Mordor forces on the Pelennor by surprise, he clearly could have filled more of those ships if he had more men to bring; but instead he only took the biggest ones. That tells me that the true Corsair force was a few times bigger, at least 10,000 or so in my opinion. The Army of the Dead was responsible for scaring them off (many drowning in the water as the jumped overboard in terror of the ghostly army appearing out of nowhere; and that is where the Army of the Dead were allowed to be at peace by Aragorn, at Pelargir) - *45,000 to 50,000 or so Orcs of Dol Guldur* though it could be as "low" as 30,000 ish, I reckon. I'm not 100% sure on this, as it's hard to figure out just how many would be needed to go after Galadriel in Lorien and Thranduil in Northern Mirkwood, _simultaneously_ as they did. Dol Guldur attacked Lorien *three times over* and also made a heavy assault on Thranduil's Elves to the North. Additionally a splinter force from Dol Guldur seems to have made a small raid into Rohan, though little is known about this and it seems it was easily dealt with by the Ents, Huorns and Rohirrim still around in the Eastfold who didn't happen to go with the King to Gondor. On top of this, they were clearly in a position to defend themselves from two combined Elven armies when they counterattacked, barring their gates and holding out for a brief time until Galadriel came along and threw open the gates, deflecting arrows around her as she tore the fortress apart with a whirlwind of power (channelling the power of Nenya) She tore it down to the deepest dungeons and lowest pits of the stronghold. I mean sure, the forces of Dol Guldur seem to have lost 6 out of 6 engagements they were involved in, but they did mark Lorien and keep Thranduil in Mirkwood preventing him having potentially aided the Dwarves and Men of Dale to his North. Even after most of their forces were apparently wiped out in the field, Dol Guldur was still garrisoned by some Orcs. So I think 45,000 is a fair estimation. They'd need a pretty big army to really stand a chance versus multiple factions simultaneously. Dol Guldur was big enough to threaten Lorien and the Woodland Realm, while also posing a serious risk to the Woodsmen and Beornings of Central and Southern Mirkwood, as well as to an extent endanger Rohan (luckily for Rohan, Lorien shielded it from most of Dol Guldur's power) Yet Galadriel's power proved too much for them (it does seem however she wasn't strong enough to march on Dol Guldur until after they'd caused significant losses to the attacking Orcs themselves, in three consecutive defensive battles, suggesting Dol Guldur was very strong indeed) Not as strong as Minas Morgul by any means, though, at least half as strong and maybe more like 2/3 as strong in troop numbers) Dol Guldur was Sauron's only major fortress in the entire midriff of Middle Earth, North of the Morannon (if we're not counting Isengard at a much more Southerly latitude than Dol Guldur - Dol Guldur was more on the same line as Lothlorien and Moria; indeed facing them across the other side of the Anduin) It was very important for him to maintain a central control hub on the East Bank of the Anduin, to have something screening the approaches to Mordor from the North. Big enough to endanger all neighbouring and/or adjacent factions, but still not powerful enough to guarantee victory all over the North. Makes sense. The very reason why the Galadhrim were limited to mainly defending Lorien's borders, was similar to the situation for the Rivendell Elves; they were too few and confined to their own lands as strategic buffer zones. Sauron despised both Lorien and Rivendell for being such useful, irritating thorns in his side. However, Mount Gundabad kept Imladris/Rivendell marked/in check, and Dol Guldur forced Galadriel's forces to stay home too. If the Orcs only had 10,000 at Dol Guldur I think that they'd struggle to even hold on defensively against the combined strength of two Elven realms plus the Woodsmen and Beornings (and potential aid from Erebor and Dale in that line of thought) 20,000 would be borderline but still fairly weak and 30,000 would be acceptable but perhaps still too small a force, too limited to be quite so offensive in multiple operations at once. 45,000-50,000 might sound far fetched but I consider it reasonable nonetheless, considering what they were expected to achieve. It's strategically logical. Any more than 50,000 would just be too much and unrealistic. If Minas Morgul can house 75,000 plus, Dol Guldur should be able to support 2/3 as many. Far more to eat in the wild lands of Mirkwood (though in the case of it's spiders, far more to be eaten by sadly - that said, their mother Shelob made a living preying on unlucky Orc patrol sentries from Cirith Ungol, nearby to Minas Morgul, so either location was hardly charming) Any more than 50,000 would be excessive and take too much away from the Southern Army. [2/3]

[@ThePalaeontologist]

[Part 3/3 of the estimates; oh well, word limits are a thing] - *5,000 to 6,000 or so tough Gundabad Orcs* at Mount Gundabad. We know Rivendell was under attack from Goblins, and we know that Gundabad wasn't cleared out until the Fourth Age got underway. After the Battle of the Five Armies, their numbers would have been severely depleted, however it had been several decades since that time which should have been long enough to recover to a large extent, even if still not fully back to previous numbers of over 10,000. Several thousand survivors at Mount Gundabad makes sense to me; strong enough to keep Rivendell marked, but not strong enough to go after Erebor anymore for the foreseeable future; hence explaining why Sauron turned to the Easterlings to do this task (which they very nearly succeeded in doing, if not for the shattering news of the shock defeat of Sauron in Mordor, which caused them to flee during a counterattack by Dwarves and Men; their supposed God had been destroyed) Without the leadership of Azog or Bolg, they were likely a pale shadow of their former strength, though still dangerous. - *15,000 or so Isengard troops* including 10,000 elite Isengard bred Uruk-Hai warriors, the best anywhere, the backbone of Saruman's armies. On top of this, he also had 3,000 or so Dunlendings aka Wild men of Dunland (I reckon) and about 3,000 to 4,000 Orcs (some from Mordor some from the Misty Mountains; though with only about half or so being guards and raiders seen attacking Rohan alongside Uruks and Dunlendings; the rest being labourers, whom could fight as all Orcs can, but they were not ideal as they weren't warriors first, instead being workers/labourers first, warriors second) Also Saruman had several hundred Wargs and their riders, plus the Crebain from Dunland (bird spies, lent erroneously but innocently by Radagast, whom at the time didn't know Saruman had turned evil) Saruman's army was tough and strong, though tiny compared to the full might of Mordor. Had it come to war between Isengard and Mordor, while I'd be rooting for the Isengarders to win, they'd simply get swamped by Orc legions pouring into Rohan in that scenario. Isengard was dangerous to Rohan but it'd need a lot more time to become dangerous to Mordor. Time, Sauron would likely never allow Saruman. Saruman wanted the One Ring for himself, and Sauron knew it. Better still, Sauron would send the Easterling Legions to deal with Isengard. That would be cool to watch. But unless Saruman trebled his armies he'd never stand a chance. Sauron had way more prep' time than Saruman did. He'd be outnumbered like 25 to 1 once the full might of Mordor decided to show up. Saruman was desperate to find the One Ring for himself because he knew that when the Men of the West were dealt with, Sauron would likely turn on him. His fierce Uruk-Hai would inflict heavy losses, no doubt; but they'd still lose. - *7,000 elite Orcs took Cair Andros* around the same time 75,000 Orcs slammed into Osgiliath's West Bank. They massacred the garrison there (whose own Captain had abandoned them, fleeing his post and leaving his leaderless men to die fighting back to back in the river island fortress) After this, they moved into Anorien province and were I believe reinforced, as they held the road to Minas Tirith against the Rohirrim (Sauron was not blind to Rohan, especially after Isengard's failure to defeat the Horse Lords) He did try to block the road and isolate Gondor from Rohan's help. However, he didn't count on the Drúadan/Woses (relatively primitive ancient human like natives of the land, having been around longer than the Gondorians) They guided the Rohirrim around the danger and through quicker and secret paths to reach Gondor through their forests. Outflanked without realising it, the Morgul Host was in for a nasty shock having neglected to post scouts around the Rammas Echor and being unaware until it was far too late; however, the Orcs did kill a Gondorian envoy from Edoras who was trying to inform Gondor of the approach of the Rohirrim, as he left before the Muster at Dunharrow, and was killed by Orcs on the way (his body was found by the Rohirrim who now realised the Gondorians didn't know confirmation had been received about the request for aid; makes you wonder why they didn't have a counter beacon system for exactly that purpose, but on well, I didn't write this lol) Also, it does seem convenient that the relatively primitive Woses would suddenly be _that_ strategically aware but again, what can we do but just guess they were not as dumb as the Gondorians likely thought they were out of snobbery. NOTE: this does not include the tens of thousands of Goblins and hundreds of Olog-Hai/Trolls in the Hithaeglir (Misty Mountains), the Ettenmoors (near Angmar) and likely in the Grey Mountains beyond Erebor and Mirkwood) While Sauron didn't directly command them - unless he really wanted to have them reined in by stronger field commanders like Azog did in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, centuries earlier - mostly, with them generally being feral, left to their own devices, they still acted like strategic barriers and obstacles. Moria ''the Black Pit'' was a total nightmare - even after the Balrog Dúrin's Bane was slain. A no go zone for anything short of a brave band of heroes of at least an army 10,000 strong (and I'd want more if I had to go there to clear the place of evil, just to be sure) Nor does this include the many spies, brigands and ruffians that Sauron and/or Saruman had around the map. We can't be sure exactly how many of those there were but there were likely several hundred to a few thousand all over Middle Earth. Grima Wormtongue had a few dozen thugs/brigands/rarely evil Rohirrim/corrupted Men of Rohan in Edoras, and Saruman as Sharku had several hundred evil Hobbits and Ruffians in the Shire during the events of the Scouring of the Shire. Then Sauron had 9 Nazgúl; nightmares in their own rights - especially the Witch-King of Angmar. All told, the Free Peoples were absolutely screwed without the destruction of the One Ring. It's kind of the whole point. "We cannot achieve victory through strength of arms" - King Eomer.

[@ЕгорЛисичкин-л8р]

I think you should always look at the source) The figures of the orc army in Tolkien are somewhat underestimated, or rather, they do not exist at all) 500 or 600 thousand, this is probably the entire army of Sauron, but he could not collect it in one place, let's think logically, but what about food, logistics? Tolkien does not give the exact numbers of the Orc army, but we know, for example, that the Haradrim army was estimated at 18 thousand people and already fighting ONLY with the Haradrims, the armies of Rohan and Gondor could be defeated. That is, even the Haradrim corps was in trouble. The Mordor army was larger than the combined coalition of Gondor and Rohan, but not in the hundreds of thousands. Viki Lotr says at least 45,000; Tolkien Gateway says perhaps more than 75,000.

[@Thesamurai1999]

Where did you get the 18 thousand haradrims from? Pretty sure Theoden said that they only got 6 000, which was half of what he had hoped. I'm going by the movies btw.

[@CrazyKnuckles]

Hey folks, thanks so much for watching and commenting!!!! Here's my latest video where I actually solve for the total number of Orcs there, instead of settling for the minimum number (as I could solve for with the geometry). In this one, I used calculus and yes, the number is much larger. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iofIepd7eJd-gLc

[@corbin_4738]

Mordor had this Army plus his secondary army which they fought at the Black Gate. My question - how the hell did Sauron feed them all?

[@leonsteinbauer2770]

Mordor is not only wasteland, there an extremly fertile region in the south. I'm not sure but I think its called Nurn.

[@corbin_4738]

@@leonsteinbauer2770 That's interesting. I honestly haven't studied the Tolkien lore too much. In my mind, when I visualize Mordor, it is surrounded by mountains except for the Black Gate and Shelob's pass place. I guess I never imagined the parts of Mordor that the companions couldn't didn't go. But who tended the fields? It doesn't seem to be the work of Bal'rogs, orcs, or trolls. The humans I don't ever remember seeing inside Mordor. I could be wrong tho.

[@taraldarion2500]

@@corbin_4738 the men of Nurn were enslaved by Sauron to work on his lands for food production. In the fourth age King Elessar gave the men of Nurn their lands back

[@corbin_4738]

Well, thank you to both of you. Learned some interesting LotR history.

[@eclipsexfade9522]

Corbin _ Maggoty bread

[@ryanwalker8843]

This much more easily answered when they tell you its 200'000 on the behind the scenes and commentary. So, no you are off by several fold. I wasnt expecting you to be so far off. Even watching a large open air concert should give you the scale that it would take many tens of thousands to take up that much of a field that size.

[@SmartassX1]

Looks like there's at least 200'000 orcs. And not all defenders were on the outer wall. If the wall has 5'000, the total is probably like 7'000.

[@TheAxemans]

200 000 orc there, and 600 000 black gate! official infotmations

[@vikingnoise_92]

60.000 in Mordor during the battle of Morannon.

[@TheAxemans]

@@vikingnoise_92 No, in the additional materials for the film The Lord of the Rings Return of the King, the special effects specialists themselves said where and how many orcs they made on computer graphics, be careful! study the official information!

[@EP-pg3xs]

Sorry man this just isn't accurate for Sauron's army, its over 200,000 as per the behind the scenes, you counted 17 thousand only in the first two rows of the screenshot and missed everything In the back. Plus if you ever play games like Rome Total War or something like that you can make 35,000 units and it will be way smaller.

[@maeckie55]

Peter Jacksons numbers dont apply, its Tolkien who set the numbers !! so its 150.000 for the Mordor Forca at Minas Tirith vs 3.000 defenders plus 6.000 Rohan Riders. Thats how desperate the story was told originally.

[@Orta_z8k]

Lets not forget rohan ,s 6000 cavalry tramplend a good portion.

[@diamondsandgold1993]

At 3:00 in, speaking of Romans. Who would win between 300k plus Romans vs 200k Orcs?

[@andygreen3575]

34,000 orcs? I think you missed a few.

[@naskardk1]

simple on wiki it says there were 200000 orks in movie in books it was only 20000

[@nathanadams6168]

I agree with the math but for the circle at the top of the city, it looks like way more people, movie magic for ya

[@McGeistly]

Don't forget about the hobbits! There were 4 of them, so there were about 302 people at the top during the coronation!

[@pauldufresne4650]

150 000 they were,it is said well said by people who really knows the lore and the Garrisson of each contigent of Orcs coming yo Mordor,the much largest host was coming from Minas Morgul,not just a biased calculation coming from the movie wich is not very by the books

[@richardvickers8117]

Reading LOTR when younger, I always pictured Sauron's army to be a seni-disciplined mob; loosely organized, but still effective in combat. Peter Jackson's version is quite good being a mix of mob and unit. However, Tolkien did not, IMO, have any understanding of logistics: feeding and watering an army that size would require an immense baggage train.

[@capthappy8884]

oh, he 100% did have an understanding. His service in WW1 gave him a level of comprehension of logistics. I figure it was a detail he didnt NEED to include as it was implied(at least it was for me). Plus other aspects such as orcs not requiring near as much supply as one made up of men, plenty to be pillaged on route, and....well, magic stuff. ;)

[@nateyolo9827]

I wish the uruk hai was in the battle in this scenes the one from helm deep it would be awesome to see them in this type of battle

[@federicoxcc4966]

According To The book there Were at least 50 000 orcs in the siege of Minas Anor

[@Nosiite]

i saw the 600k in the comments and now im wondering how much it would be including the easterlings, haradrim, and the corsairs

[@soccorio3522]

@Green Pepper That is straight up bull..... Peter Jackson himself gave numbers to the battle of the Pelennor Fields saying about 200 000 orcs/easterlings/haradrim/gondorians at total. The 600k number is the battle of the Plains of Dagorlad where the 600k is only the army of the Alliance. The host of Saurons Army was even greater.

[@al-bquik1550]

On the dvd they said it was 250,00.

[@nairb2693]

by my count there are about tree fiddy orcs

[@trollkenobi6727]

680,000 Orcs vs 6000 Rohirrim and about 35000 Gondorians

[@granthudson5447]

little less than 500,000 is my guess for orc's

[@yellowrose0910]

7:13 "one half" =/= "1.5"

[@computerinsurgent1204]

There were 130.000 orcs at Minas Tirith.

[@primevalseeker3952]

Those figures on the front are probably Giant trolls so the measurements may be a bit off. Cool anyway!

[@achilleas_christ9136]

Around 150k i say

[@thehellrunner4117]

In the book only 6000 men defended Minas Tirith. 6000 more came with the Rohirim. So your calculations so far are believeble.

[@Catholic_Wook]

There are at least 130,000 orcs and at least 18,000 easterlings and haradim.....Not even close my dude..... Aslo, there are 5,000 Gondorian soliders, with 250 extra soliders guarding the white tree. Sorry bro...

[@quinq7116]

Yeah ive read it in lotr wiki

[@papa-oniichan]

There was 10.000 thousand gondorian men in minas tirith 200.000 orcs harads and blah blah

[@albertotzul4074]

In the books not movies

[@baknadmnekadardauzunsizdeu2000]

You forgot aragons death army and rohirrims

[@petrsilukov3884]

Wtf 35 k look just the foto in internet of football stadio of 50k , here its sure aroud 100k and more

[@RheaMainz]

How do you _scream_ "AAHH"? That should determine how you say **Nazgul**. I find a limpness in how you say it...:)

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

One orc and thirty thousand mirrors.

[@desertratz307]

Nigga showed Rome 2 Total War, and even if there were more Orcs than he said, hes trying to estimate how many are actually shown.

[@michaelroy7754]

According to the DVD and the chi people d3signing the army its 600K orcs

[@davidponseigo8811]

I think saying it's a masterpiece is pushing it a bit.

[@xboy6373]

There were 50k orcs

[@whiteknightcat]

All this effort when the numbers are already given in the Behind the Scenes clips.

[@tylerlarsen7135]

If y’all play total war you know there’s more than 35,000 😂

[@secureguard673]

35,000 man u must be joking, they would have not been able even make it near the wall, the viewers are right, the rightful number is 250,000 to 300,000 , yes the Rohan's small numbers of Calvary smashed through the orcs like knife on butter but that's only in fiction making the Calvary way superior than foot solders, ok I'll go along with that as its a fantasy movie, if it wasn't than trust me that Calvary would have been held just before the middle of the orc army, anyways but to say 35,000 and doing some pretendance calculation to show ur good with maths, no offence or anything but I think my child would know that there are way more than 35,000, in a simpler way of putting it your maths is bad.

[@guzwarsmith9390]

One two three a lot there is a lot

[@carcotasu081]

That is not a 35000 man army the fuck. That's 100k at the minimum

[@jeremysnowden1286]

In the bts they say at least 200,000

[@CrunchyNorbert]

the orcs would dig trenches

[@firefox7801]

Well, in the books they did. But they didn't expect Rohan to show up at the pelennor. They were completely baffled, because an entire Army of maybe 20.000 Orks was blocking the northern road to Rohan with trenches, etc. At the pelennor fields in the books saurons forces consist of about 25.000, with most of them Haradrim and Easterling men. Minas Tirith had about 5.000 defenders, Rohan about 6.000 riders and Aragorns Relief force also about 5.000 men from Gondor (yes, in the books the ghosts don't show up at the pelennor). The biggest battle in the return of the king takes place at the Morannon, where 7.000 Allied forces under Aragorn are sorrounded by 70.000 enemies, most of them Easterling men.

[@thenobledildo6820]

Some men are longer than others.

[@badgraphix9659]

Minas Math