The Army of the Dead is Bullsh*t

[@BabyXiuhcoatl]

One of my favorite parts in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields [book] is when Pippin is running to find Gandalf at the city gates. As Pippin flies down the narrow lanes, he passes many men who have abandoned their posts at the defense of the city, and are now running mad with despair. And yet, some of the men when seeing the 'Halfing Prince' running toward the danger and not away from it; return to their senses and again take up their posts at the defense of Minas Tirith.

[@Prince_Oli]

That is awesome! I wish they would have added that to the movie.

[@rebelresource]

Even the form of a child can inspire. Beautiful. May we return to our posts in life with bravery!

[@LoudCommentor]

Dang. Pippin has the same effect as Gandalf then, bringing courage and hope to men wherever he goes. What a moral!

[@TheRogueJedii]

Imagine seeing a dude half you size going towards danger with twice your courage. That would definitely be a wake up call for any that calls himself a man.

[@shadyloc4018]

Yeah that was an epic part of the book. Pippin gave new breath to their hearts

[@russellmoore6675]

Agreed. There are a few creative changes that were made-such as with the army of the dead that weren’t as good as they could have been. I definitely had that exact feeling as I was watching them completely destroy Sauron’s army on their own. There were others although like you, I’m still amazed today at how good the whole trilogy was.

[@master_samwise]

This trilogy holds up incredibly well, and I'm so happy with all the things it did right, such as, as I show but don't explicitly note in the video, Theoden's horse charging ahead of all the other Rohirrim. That is straight out of the books, and the fact that it's included in the short, overhead shot demonstrates that clearly Jackson and company knew their source material... which in turn makes it even more frustrating that the Army of the Dead was used in a manner so contrary to the book.

[@tubetorpedo]

​@@master_samwise Maybe their main concern was to do it fast, so green airbrush (of victory) it was. It was done in a few seconds so story could advance. Personally I would almost hoped camera just panning up and then some character telling/having a short conversation of how they did the cleanup afterwards and how it ended.

[@Movie_Games]

The stupid green army ruined the movie for me because he could've just took them to Mordor instead and made the place a ghost town. Or made a deal with them to do two battles before letting them go free. Unless there's a good reason why he couldn't.

[@orclover2353]

The army of the dead was my biggest gripe with all of the movies . The black ships coming up the river, and the city ringing the warning bells to retreat because the battle on the field was lost, only to have have a gondorian army jump out with their new king at the head is THE CLIMAX of the entire series, probably even more important than the ring itself, because who cares if the ring gets destroyed if all of the main characters are already dead. Remember that the writers absolutely adored Lord of the Rings, they understand the importance of this moment but just didn't have time to have the ghosts be a central plot of Aragorn's rise, have Aragorn use the ghosts to secure the southern fiefs, then have to explain the southern fiefs, their diverse culture, history...including the introduction of Pelargir, the history with the haradrim, and even the Numenoreans complex history with southern gondor. The ghosts would then do very little, scared some guys off of ships to save a bunch of other guys who weren't strong enough to fight off dirty pirates but are now strong enough to turn the tide of the largest battle in middle earth in 1000 years. As amazing as the writing and imagery is during that moment it is certainly a logic hole and tolkien falls into a number of these. Tolkien is a weak action writer, his battles take fewer pages than hobbits walking through the shire, they don't really make sense and are not particularly detailed. It almost feels like he was ashamed to have battles in the first place because the story was so much relationship and choice centered and not violence centered.

[@superjlk_9538]

I think they easily could have remedied this with the Nazgul being able to repel some of the ghosts and with a smaller number. It’s simply too big of an army to not look like a duex ex machina

[@n.trstenjak2499]

Not a few guys. Remember, the entire south of Gondor was besieged by the fleet of ships under the corsairs. Pelargir completely aside, when the regions send reinforced to Minas Tirith before the battle, it’s mentioned that thousands of men should’ve come from Lossarnach, not a couple hundred. This refers to the wars and sieges being waged all across Gondor. In the South, this was centered around Pelargir. This wasn’t a small skirmish. Pelargir was the greatest port of Gondor and wouldn’t have been besieged by a couple dirty pirates in small boats. The Corsairs fleet was substantial and defeating them freed up thousands of men.

[@heofnorenown]

I could completely destroy your comment, but I won’t, because it’s clear you either haven’t read the books or you did it a long time ago, and so you don’t know better, although if you’re going to make such claims as “Tolkien is a weak action writer” you really aught to know what you’re talking about. I will however make one suggestion about where you go wrong. You seem to forget that Gondor and her enemies are kingdoms, with armies and fleets, the Corsair fleet at Pelargir numbers something like 50 large ships and can carry thousands of men and it was not the only Corsair fleet.

[@n.trstenjak2499]

@@heofnorenown I can’t tell you how happy your comment made me.

[@Hello_there_obi]

You need to think a little harder about the constraints of the film…

[@rhosia]

Sometimes life is really strange! I wrote the same thing about the Dead Army in my review at Kinopoisk (it’s Russian IMDB). It was about a month ago. Today I found this video by recommendations on KZbin. It’s great to find like-minded people all over the world! I want to add a few thoughts. As I remember in the book (I’ve read it long time ago) the Dead Army helped Aragorn and his people to defeat the corsairs only. Aragorn released their spirits right after that and there were no ghosts on Pelennor fields. I wish Peter Jackson added some more detailed scenes in the ports of Gondor and cut off the ghosts out the battle of Pelennor fields. You are very right, their appearance contributes a huge depreciation of human feats. Moreover it brings inappropriate comedy to the scene (when they kill the elephant for example). Honestly, I think that it’s the worst decision about the script in the whole trilogy. Anyway I love the film. My favourite scene is Faramir’s try to fight off Osgiliath. This is such a beauty! The dramaturgy, the Pippin’s song and especially some shots. The one is where Gandalf sits alone in the backyard while the sun is setting. There is no Maya, no wizard, there is just a human that dreams to find hope. Thank you for your video, it’s so great!

[@Theaeretical]

I love these movies so much. I always felt dissatisfied with some points, and now I see. This is so true, and if they had added these points, and if it were possible to make the movies as good as the books, it would be the PERFECT movie

[@Vyable__]

You’d have to get the 12 hour movie version

[@scipioamericanus6711]

Eomer gets a raw deal in general in the films, being sidelined for most of Two Towers and having all of his most impactful scenes in RotK cut or drastically reduced in scope. They even removed his friendship/rivalry with Gimli, and in the extended edition he injects an uneeded line of generic sexism into Eowyn's plot. Of course, it could be worse, he could have been cut entirely like Prince Imrahil, but of all the characters who made it into the films, Eomer is to my mind the one who made it the least intact.

[@auzawandilaz6971]

sexism? where was that?

[@jamesr4951]

Lol everyone knows that "war is the province of men." 🤣

[@jneumy566]

Here's the thing I've found. Pretty much all of the larger issues with the movies is because of how they were adapted and have perfectly good consistency in the books. Sauron reaching for Isildur when he could've just killed him with his mace? In the books, Elendil, Gil-galad, and Sauron all kill each other in single combat. Sauron is already "dead" and Isildur goes to his body to cut the Rings off as compensation for his father's death. Frodo telling Sam to leave when they're on the Secret Stairs? Never happened. In the books, they get separated when Gollum attacks Sam and lures him away from Frodo. The Army of the Dead being deus ex machina? Nope. In the books, they use their one battle to take the Corsair ships and then Aragorn frees them before heading to Minas Tirith. In the book, a company of rangers arrives to follow Aragorn through the Path of the Dead and as they defeat the Corsairs, they travel through the other Gondorian cities and bring with them the soldiers who weren't able to make it to Minas Tirith because they were busy fighting the Corsairs. This is the army Aragorn arrives with on the ships in the books and when he arrives, the battle still takes some time to be won. The imperfections in the adaptation honestly just highlight even more how masterful Tolkien's work is, because it's not at the fault of the story in general. These weren't Tolkien's plot holes, they were simply created by the adaptation

[@richardgrego]

I remember seeing The Return of the King and talking with my friends after And telling them, the use of the undead green army was not what I thought would happen and wished that the Beacons of Gondor had called all of mankind together to stand themselves against Mordor. My friends, having read the books told me explicitly well that is how it happened in the books Not having read the books, I took their word for it, but it didn't make sense It took away from the point of the Beacons and it took away from the foreshadowing Gandolph did when he said to Elron, it is in Men we will trust. The explanation of the book in this video makes so much more sense Also in the movie, why stop at Gondor, use the green army to march into Mordor and kill everyone there

[@vonborgah]

coz sauron would have dispelled them, not to mention they did their dept they had no intrest to save humans, only to lift their own curse

[@Tonoborus]

agree fully. On the other hand, never underestimate the importance of 'mostly not dying for long enough'.

[@master_samwise]

True, that is a very important skill.

[@Joe-hu7lx]

Now that you say this, the Gondor army looked like a bunch of wimps without courage.

[@rong7496]

No, I’d want to know my enemies felt the fear of being attacked by an enemy they could not beat. If anything, I’m upset that Aragorn didn’t take those dead warriors with him to the gates of Mordor and have him wipe out Sauron’s army there, too.

[@sivad1025]

This is the single worst change in the trilogy. It absolutely destroys the emotional momentum of the movie

[@nathanhume4859]

Never read the source material, but it was obvious to me when I was 10 that the ghosties were Overpowered, and if they were that powerful why didn't they just pop along to Mordor as well.

[@lemonlefleur6236]

While the books version probably would have been more impactful, I wouldn’t say that the Army of the Dead cheapened the sacrifices of man from the perspective of people who lacked the context of the books. We watch as mankind is on the brink of defeat. Struggling to hold against the forces of Mordor, we watch as mankind is pulled up from the precipice not by their own failing strength, but by an army of the dead who act only to be freed from their own great failure. The army of the dead save Gondor for the sake of fulfilling their oath, and in doing so give mankind one final chance to save themselves while also showing the fate of those who would chose to turn and flee at this critical moment.

[@kevinslater4126]

No man, the biggest bullshit was Gandalf standing alone at the gates of Minas Tirith and telling the entire army and the Nazgûl who could not be defeated “you will not enter here” AND HE MEANT IT was cut from the film entirely. What the hell Jackson? That was the greatest scene in all the books!

[@2JoeStudios]

I am really happy that Jackson didn't do anything you suggested here. The idea that the Gondorians should charge out of the gate has straight up Game of Thrones season 8 vibes. Jackson did everything right (almost everything - no one is perfect). Your ideas would have made the movie considerably worse. They don't translate to screen in the way you think they do.

[@pastrami00]

Also, Aragorn says to Theoden, "6000 spears will not be enough to break the lines of mordor" and then they proceed to ride down the orc army and the remaining orcs simply run away. The battle didn't have the weight that it had in the books.

[@hobyvh]

Agreed. Sticking to the books would have made the battle less pointless and removed the plot hole of not releasing the dead army only after fighting across Mordor, which really was the reason they’d been cursed in the first place.

[@freegender930]

This is actually close to real life imagine how many Americans lives could have been saved if the atomic bomb had been invented 5 minutes😂

[@bigl9478]

Agreed! I always hated how the army of the dead was used in the film. What I find most baffling is how much non-book readers absolutely love them and even cheer when they swoop in and win the battle. I’ve watched, probably close to 100 different people react to the movies, and without fail they always love that part. I’ve never heard a single person complain (or even notice) that it weakens the battle scene. I can’t stand it!

[@criert135]

Why not just enjoy the fact that other people enjoy it. Not everyone has the same taste and many people like different things.

[@GunnerRDS]

@@criert135 Because they applaud the laziest, most nonsensical part of the entire trilogy?

[@criert135]

@@GunnerRDS That’s your subjective opinion. If they enjoy it then that alone shows there was merit in it being done that way.

[@GunnerRDS]

@@criert135 Ummm wrong, it's an adaptation of one of the finest literary works ever created. Its success is based on faithfulness to the original work, not on how many drooling imbeciles applaud the contrived action scenes

[@keesvanvore8635]

I can understand you don’t like it. But not everyone wants to spend hours analyzing every piece of content they watch. If you’re casually watching the trilogy it is an awesome moment. At least I think we can agree it was cinematically amazing.

[@felixwohlfarth925]

as a Percy Jackson fan..Lotr fans have no right to complain about your movie adaptation...

[@Riddlerint1202]

I agree with you that this would have been more impactful but I don’t know how you would go about doing this in a film form. Like how do you show that the Nazgûl effect moral not physically attacking people. I also feel like the ghosts were put in to make the final battle more impactful because emotion wise I feel like that final battle gets the feelings across that you are suggesting. What do you think might have been a good way to solve these problems without making a 10 hour moving 😂?

[@jeffreykershner440]

Have the Nazgul fly along a battlement and every soldier on the wall behind them go into fetal position. Maybe have a scene where there's a team expertly loading lots of big stones into a catapult and taking out dozens of orks. Then the Nazgul fly overhead and they mess up, dropping the stones on soldiers/civilians on the next level down. Show horses fleeing and unseating their riders. Then comes Gandalf, shift the whole color palette to a lighter shade, have him smile and say "lift your heads and fight men of Gondor". When the ships come, change to an overhead shot with the three sides pushing into the mass of orcs. It could have maintained the epic nature, but shown the epic cost more.

[@plebisMaximus]

I suppose you could point the camera at the overcast skies and then dub in the bone-chilling Nazgul screech, followed by some shots of soldiers looking afraid. But even then, it wouldn't really do it justice. It wasn't a great change, but I think it was necessary.

[@master_samwise]

Honestly, the Battle of Pelennor fields in the book is not that long. Tolkien did not write long battle scenes. From the point that Aragorn shows up to the end of the battle is literally 2 pages. The movie spends a lot more time on the initial siege than the book does, so there definitely was fat that could have been trimmed. Like I said though, I still love the movie and doubt anyone would have done better than Jackson. They're just not quite perfect.

[@mullenio4200]

This is probably the worst choice in the the trilogy. But thankfully there aren't too many bad choices. He saved them for the Hobbit films. 🙄

[@tomhubbard22]

There's a scene earlier in the book, where Pippin and Bergil, the son of Beregond, are standing above the Gates of Minas Tirith, watching as reinforcements arrive from the southern coastlands of Gondor. Pippin is first impressed to see fifty men arrive from here, and a hundred twenty from there, and a full three hundred mounted knights from Dol Amroth, but Bergil's comment is "They send us but a tithe of their strength", because the folk along the southern coastlands fear the Corsairs, and don't dare leave their homelands undefended, even though the heaviest blow will fall here, on the City. This sets up the later emotional turnaround, as the defenders see the Fleet sailing up the river, and imagine that this means the Corsairs have prevailed, and the coastlands are lost. But then, against all expectations, the Tree and Stars flies from the flagship and they realize that the Corsairs are *defeated*, and that those ships are filled with the rest of the strength that had been left to defend the coastlands. "And the people sang in all the ways of the City." It's a glorious moment, and Jackson pissed it away.

[@closequarters4575]

I watched this with my brother and after the ghosts just ran over everyone, we felt cheated out of seeing a real battle.

[@gordonneverdies]

The ghost army was a great example of the unfair advantage of being the good guys. They always seem to have an unbeatable ace up their sleeve.

[@dashsocur]

Resolving a battle has always been Peter Jackson's weak point. He got his start in monster movies. He LOVES making the enemies to be as menacing and dangerous as possible (and he's good at it). The problem is, he builds the enemies up so much that by the time he needs to resolve things there's not a satisfying way to do it and he ran into this in every big fight he's ever filmed. Fortunately, he often has a reasonable reason to "end" things (like the Balrog chasing off the goblins in Fellowship or the Eagles rescuing Thorin's company in the Hobbit). Helms Deep and Pelennor Fields are both situations where he doesn't have that so we end up with cavalry magically charging through a readied pike wall (honestly, he could have just had Eomer and Gandalf do a surprise attack and it would have been fine) or the infamous Green Goo.

[@jerryappleton6855]

Jackson should have kept the Ghost Army as in the book: ethereal beings who couldn't touch or be touched, but could strike fear into the Orcs. I know introducing the plot of the Southern counties of Gondor and Men being freed by Aragon to then arrive at the Battle would have ruined the paceing and introduced too much new lore and characters into the film. But what Jackson could have done is this: 1) Army of Dead arrive. Though they can't harm the Orcs, they terrify the left flank into fleeing. 2) Rohan continues to decimate the right flank. 3) But the center, steadied by the Witch King, holds. 4) Gondorian soldiers, fleeing, see Pippin stand his ground. Inspired, they rally. Gandalf sees the arrival of Aragon and implores the Gondorians to join their King and fellow men in one last effort to break the Orcs. 5) Gondorian soldiers storm the city, taking back the streets and walls as their cavalry charge out of the gate to break the centre. Men win. It would have been better I think.

[@RealBenda]

I did not read the books and so did not know the battle should have gone so differently. I understand your points and agree, however: I think there are two good reasons for why the Green army was a good idea - one, practical, is that there was no time to fully introduce more humans and portray the dealings with them; the other, thematic, was it showed Aragorn's full and final step in taking up the mantle of king, accepting his lineage (with its glory and failures), and gave the dead a chance to atone for their past mistakes and support the living in fighting for a hopeful future (when in the past, they themselves turned and ran for fear of losing). It's the very same play on hope, but instead of a geographically larger pool, it draws on a temporal richness (plus adds another fantasy element, spectres, which are just simply cool). :)

[@SPCJTT]

Whoa...Gandalf was not sent to Middle Earth for battle. He was sent to inspire men and leaders so that darkness could not dominate the land.

[@treytonstratton3532]

I disagree with this statement because as you pointed out, the armies of men were just supposed to resist Mordor, not beat them. The whole point is holding out until Aragorn arrives. Each stage of the fight has the reinforcements arrive and bring hope, only to have it taken away when Sauron has another answer. Every time it seems that the armies of men have a chance, it is taken away again, and the main goal is to survive as long as they can. It is a common trope used to the fullest extent. It does not lessen the sacrifice of the men that died because without them, everyone would be dead before Aragorn gets there with the tide of the dead that, in my eyes, signifies hope washing over the battlefield. An example from the movie just before it. You don't think that when the Riders of Rohan and Gandalf show up at The Battle for Helms Deep, that all the dying soldiers just look up and think, "well if only they showed up sooner, guess my life was wasted" no you don't, because they did their job. They held out until reinforcements arrived. As was the point of the battle. This is not to say that the battle is just as good in the movie as in the books, but I feel that it is near impossible to show an entire psychological tug of war in the time that was given.

[@epsteination2299]

This is true

[@ursula868]

I think they peaked with the Battle of Helm's Deep. The anticipation of the enemy approaching and all the character development leading to that point, makes that battle scene my favourite in movie history. The battle in Return of the King felt rushed when I first watched it in movie theatres, and I didn't like the cgi ghosts who just smothered the battlefield and Minis Tirith. I think cgi was too prominent in the film, honestly.

[@rufusmcgee4383]

Have to agree here. I was pretty disappointed when the Dead showed up and wiped out everything. In the movie, Aragorn had plenty of time to swing by and grab the Dead and get to Gondor in time to rout the Witch King's army in before they even got out of Osgiliath. Then they could have easily made a quick trip to Mordor and wiped out everybody there in another couple of days. In a way (according to the movie) Aragorn was pretty irresponsible for letting the Dead go, given their power and ease with which they wiped the floor with the Orcs.

[@CandidateNr182]

The power imbalance between the Witch King and Gandalf does make sense though since Gandalf's power is restricted by the Valar. The wizards were never meant to lead the races of Middle Earth or fight their battles for them only guide them, therefore he can't call on his full power when fighting anyone else than other Maier such as the Balrog. The army of the dead curb-stomping everyone is kinda dumb but there wasn't really an option that wouldn't have confused viewers, introducing the princes and soldiers of Dol Amroth which would have meant a new set, new distinct costumes, more actors and only using the ghosts for a little bit. Then you could also say that the book scenes where the Rohirim sneaks past the orc army with the help of The Druedain should also be added since it would have made Sauron look smarter by having the plan to stop Rohan helping Gondor. What I am getting at is that these things would have added a lot of runtime to already huge movies, increased expenses considerably, and then taken them a longer time to produce.

[@meller7303]

Return of the King remains one of my favorite movies of all time, but I've always had a similar thought to this as I watched. Now, I didn't read the books, but having rewatched the movies many times, my head cannon went like this, and made it sit better for me: The army of the dead were cursed men because they hadn't fought for the king in prior battles, so for me it always made sense that IF the dead were to truly fulfil their oath, they would need to truly experience the pain, fear, and brutality of war. This means that upon agreeing to help Aragorn, the dead could once again truly die. No longer would they be an invincible trump card. With this version of the army, victory is not certain, and doesn't cheapen victory the way they did in Jackson's portrayal. perhaps in this version, the army of the dead turn the tides of battle in man's favor, but the dead end up fulfilling their oath, dying, and leaving the fate of middle earth in the hands of the living once again.

[@JakeMills-b6m]

I feel like that was the point of the AOTD because if they weren’t there they’d probably of lost and if they showed up at the start then we wouldn’t go got what we got it doesn’t change any death that’s like saying all the sacrifices at helms deep were for nothing because Rohan just shows up at the end and defeats the Uruk hai or the hobbits with the ents just crush Isengard when they should’ve done it from the start

[@TheStormWolf4]

thx for also mentioning that both Gandalf and Sauron are Maiar, when I discovered this it blew my mind! Side note: The Balrogs are also considered Maiar, so Gandalf's defeat against a Balrog is much more logical :P

[@robertsouth6971]

Holding out for reinforcements isn't meaningless.

[@boldbearings]

Orcs may not be immune to fear. When the Numenoreans challenge Sauron, their power display is so great, the hosts of Mordor wont even fight, even with Sauron wearing the Ring.

[@jamescalderon1309]

If the Witchking took over the Army of the Dead, we'd be watching Game of Thrones

[@CarmenVeranda]

The parody Bored Of The Rings called the Eagles "Deus Ex Machina Airlines".

[@xyreniaofcthrayn1195]

The undead army was ~1000 - 500 years beyond late and it implies that the corsairs in the movies died and joined with the undead army becoming an unnatural tide of all good dead on the fields of pellonor as well and once dispersed went to where human souls go.

[@reptilset14]

You really make good points, and for such a great book is hard to do something perfect for everybody. The thing is, it would be too hard to put a psychological battle and make it look epic. So instead, they opt for the Gandalf presence and speech. I think the take Jackson take, made the final better. So the audience know that Sauron now overpowers them, and they would lose a battle. But even with that, they march to the gate, that make the Aragon's speech more powerful, because everyone knows they can't really win and they will die. And of course, they're afraid of that. The speech give them courage and a reason to die and just after that he charge alone, inspiring the soldiers to change fear for courage and hope. So the Gondor's battle was an epic and a build up for the final.

[@fmg9666]

It is not BS. The Army of the Dead was a great piece of relief at a point in the film, where tension was high an the evil side got more and more oppressive. Them getting released before the Gates of Mordor battle was anticlimactic though.

[@aidanwotherspoon905]

I agree that I wish the scene was closer to the source material, but you overstate your case early on. The basic premise in the movie and book are the same: time is against Aragorn to come up the Anduin, and the men of Gondor need to hold out long enough. I don’t think a dying soldier would be demoralized to know that when they gave their lives in the last defence of Gondor, they knew their victory was at hand because the reinforcements they held out for were so supernaturally strong that they need not worry about any more of their comrades joining them amongst the dead

[@The-Dom]

If they could have somehow tied the ghosts appearing or their rise in power to the falling soldiers of Minas Tirith, it would have given it all meaning.

[@DrJay-vd9tf]

I don't see how the ghosts appearing would make the men's fight pointless. If the men didn't bother to fight because a ghost army was coming, Minas Tirith would have fallen in minutes. They where biding time till reinforcements arrived to aid them. None of their deaths where in vain, each one was delaying the army so it could be defeated. Each death given helped them gain victory. And about the Dead not being able to cause harm. It is never said they can't just that Gimli never saw them do it. Quote "but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear" You don't need to use weapons to fight when the enemy flees in terror. We also have “The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor” from one of Tolkien's unfinished essays where it mentions the doors of the dead "But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness", This implies that the ghosts can harm the living. I will not say that they can massacre an army, but we've seen in the books that "ghosts" are capable of harm such as the "phantoms of terror” from Taur-nu-Fuin and the Nazgul themselves. You can still prefer the books over Jackson's portrayal, but The Army of the Dead is(n't) Bullsh*t

[@alexcwagner]

You just know that if Aragorn didn't bring the Dead to Gondor, viewers would complain, "Why didn't he just bring the Dead with him to the battle?" Sort of how they say, "Why didn't they just have the eagles bring the ring to Mount Doom in the first place?" I'm not excusing the choice. Just saying.

[@CeToxihuitl]

The thing is that the rohirrim we're the decisive force that turned the battle of the pelennor fields they were also losing, and the peter Jackson's trylogy failed to convey that. In the book the rohirrim were ready to fight a last stand and then aragorn came to save them.

[@austinaxley81]

You really defeated your own point in one sentence. "...IF men were to draw together and, IF the heir of Elendil could come into his own." Men did draw together in the battle, and the army of the dead is proof that he has come into his own.

[@slayskool1964]

Releasing the army of the dead before fighting Mordor was Aragorn's second blunder, next to not letting Grima die.

[@Byenie0912]

in my own head canon, Boromir is with Gandalf to defend Minas Tirith... then when Aragorn came with the Grey Rangers, Boromir sounded the horn at the White Citadel and screaming at the top... hailing the return of the lord of gondor

[@Ken-fh4jc]

I always hated that the Witch King was able to get one up on Gandalf and break is staff.

[@pepperpeterpiperpickled9805]

It bugged me that he let the army go before the war was over.

[@DW-rs1pr]

They needed to be a zombie army. Not an invincible ghost army

[@jameswinslow8540]

I think jackson made the right move, movies are visual and just having the corsairs jump off their ships in fear would not of been as impactful and surprising as watching an entire ghost army decimate the orcs. I feel that since recruiting the army is a major plot point it needs a very grand payoff.

[@craigrussell7542]

Having "the cavalry" arrive twice in one battle may have been dipping once too often into the same sauce.

[@nrais76]

"What's taters, precious?" A New World crop that Sam Samwise Gamgee should have no knowledge of, that was basically an edible rock until the Idaho potato, from which all potatoes that people actually eat in the modern world are descended.

[@Kataxu]

I love this video, though what you said early on doesn't ring true to me. "(It) hugely cheapens, and hollows the victory of men." If anything it serves to highlight the victory of men over Sauron - the oaths of the grey company are fulfilled in Sauron's despite. A long-awaited hand to play, creating a victory for men in the long game Sauron plays.

[@gothia1715]

I grew up with these movies and i absolutely love them. But even as a teen i started to think that the army of the dead is just off. Winning the battle of Pelennor fields becomes an accomplishment of Aragon alone instead of being one of everyone who fought there. Everyone who died was a waste because the dead cleared up everything anyways. The only thing good about it is that its part of Aragons path to become Elessar. Otherwise its just a deus ex machina.

[@Phil_vG]

Even though you knew the army of the dead would come, the people fighting at Minas Tirith didn't know. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli could have been dead for all they knew. If they didn't fight Minas Tirith would have been taken over before they got there. The movie should have given you a better sense of time past.

[@gcs7817]

The way Jackson used the army of the undead was BS… total cop out The army of the undead relied on fear and fear alone, much like the Nazgûl. The Corsairs of Umbar fled in panic and many jumped overboard and drowned Aragorn released the army from their oath after Aragorn seized the ships

[@extremestuff61]

I remember someone saying that Peter Jackson didn't like extreme uses of magic or the supernatural, which we can see through the fight between Gandalf and Saruman who just throw each other around (which is still good). But then they use the army of the dead as like a uno reverse card turning the battle in the mens favour for basically no effort. So I was like, I am not so sure about that. Maybe Peter did try to make it more accurate to the books, but just couldn't due to time restraints, that of the making of the film and the length actual film. Although call me crazy but I would totally be on board for a 6 hour long movie that is completely accurate to Tolkien's material for each movie lol. Maybe just have some way of making it into a part 1 and part 2 so other people would still be inclined to watch it. I would love to see the barrow wights put to film and the old forest and TOM BOMBADIL!!!!! Also epic video Samwise :)!

[@burieddreamer]

8:36 - That's not true. The moment is not impactful, nor emotional. It's cheap and cheesy.

[@srs1518]

question: I was a bit disappointed with the Scrubbing Bubbles of Doom but I kinda get it. We already have a 20 minute battle. The Rohirrim have already faced 2 charges. The book has Aragorn as the hammer and the Rohirrim as the anvil (whatever, you know what I mean). PJ still had Frodo and Sam in Mordor, the Black Gate, the Crowning, Return to the Shire, and the Grey Havens. They needed the battle to end quickly. I'm not saying I'm cool with the choice, but like Glorfindel->Arwen, I understand and just appreciate PJ and Co's effort. This is like someone gives you a Ferrari with a door ding. Especially compared to the meh and then complete corrupted abomination that followed

[@wendigo7176]

So true, Aragorn rallying the coastal cities with charisma and heroism into an epic relief force is dimensions better than undead army go brrrr. Also all the lords sending little contingents of army to assist Minas Thirith tells that man were really struggling after much hardship to muster a resistance, instead the movie portraits Gondor is only Minas Thirith, all alone like an island

[@centaur6ify]

The scene had a "phone it in" vibe; like everyone was tired and "lets get this series over with."

[@jelmer-hendrikveen2722]

Agreed! As in-deep-geek pointed out perfectly, the whole siege is not a battle of strengt or numbers, but one of despair vs. hope. The Nazgul are there not as physical monsters, but as bringers of dread and despair. The whole tug of war between hope and despair is so carefully crafted. And when all of that work was done to maintain spirit by all the different characters like gandalf, pippin and eowin and Theoden, the army of the dead just swoops in and takes the cake.

[@emileelynette3158]

Most filmmakers don't seem to know how to do epic battle scenes differently than "both sides run toward each other at full speed and go smash smash". It's a shame, and it's also a cop out - the strategy is the hard part, but that's what makes it cool (or what 'would' make it cool).

[@rapturedmourning]

The army of the dead ruining the Ride of the Rohiran, not the eagle usage, was my first criticism after watching the movies. Loved both the movies and books!

[@sameerrao2032]

Have you seen Bollywood movie named RRR great movie

[@papacheese6431]

Yes godly movie

[@happymradrian]

Another observation but Jackson very clearly establishes a "combat hierarchy" in the movies. Orcs almost never lose in hand to hand against normal human soldiers. Every time men defeat orcs, it is either through archery, or cavalry, even in the intro scene on the slopes of Mount Doom. Elves don't fare much better, they get massacred in hand to hand combat too at the Battle of the Hornburg. The Gondorians suffered the worst, with their extremely heavytroops being mowed down on at Osgiliath, on the Minas Tirith walls, at the gate, in the streets etc. Funnily enough, the tie in video games did them far better justice. So for the day to be saved at Pelennor, he couldn't just have more men suddenly fighting well, or cavalry since the mumaks were tearing them apart. It had to be the army of the dead. Also its clear they spent a lot of budget and time developing the special effects for the dead, so they probably wanted to wring out more value by including them more.

[@Voliharmin]

5:30 Gandalf is not a Maia, he is an Istari like all other wizards. He is mostly stripped of his power, he has a human body, he needs to eat, he can be killed, he gets old. Valars learned during 1st and 2nd age that sending Maias to middleearth to fight Morghots servants would wipe it out, that's why Istari serve as a guides for people for of middleearth, not as warriors.

[@sczealot2436]

You're right its a Deus Ex Machina. My only defence is that it is "on theme" for Aragorn's character arc. It is the great power that comes with accepting his responsibility to be king. It was a terrifying encounter he had to go through to wield this power, and ONLY he could do it. It is on theme and a good "symbol" of him accepting his birthright. But I agree, its BS in the battle.

[@blakehenry9030]

The animated return of king has return while flawed has a more accurate version

[@benjamindeh873]

Yeah I also thought the army of the dead was cheap and dumb. Like "Yo guys. we are ALMOST at "fulfilled oat" but there's ANOTHER army a couple days march from here, mordor, every orc in their lands. Could you pweatty pleasy? 2 more days of 0 danger battle for you and you get your freedom and your oaths fulfilled and forever peace!"

[@sandorsbox]

I have thought of myself as a Tolkien fan since I was 10. I LOVED Jackson's movies. And I hate how much I agree with you in this.

[@bobjones4469]

I don't have a problem with the army of the dead itself or that humans "died for nothing," my issue is if this army was so broken, why don't everyone just study it and use it? Why don't they guy who cursed them just do whatever he wants if he's capable of creating such an invincible army? Why don't the bad guys use it? They don't have any qualms about morals or whatever.

[@stuartmunro2474]

Jackson was a good film maker - but Tolkien was a master. Not wise to mess with the work of a better storyteller. The dead could not rest until they had fulfilled their oath, to meet the armies of Sauron in battle. Which they did, and were released, after drowning the corsairs. Tolkien's Aragorn would never have led an army of zombies.

[@davidgratton8869]

I agree with you, and I held this opinion from the moment I first saw the movie. I guess they had to do something to give meaning to Aragorn taking the paths of the dead and stage his arrival mid-battle, and they had to make up some group of combatants to be on the ships as they arrived, but they options they chose diminish the honor and valor of nearly everyone involved. It fell short of what it might have been and far short of the original story. However, the worst failure in the movies is the ruining of Faramir and his nobility of character by fabricating the scene in osgilliath and the attempt to deliver the ring to Gondor. It turned Faramir from being one of the most honorable and noble characters to a sniveling pussy. And they really screwed up Entmoot and the Ent’s March to war. I still watch the movies every year or two, and I enjoy it well enough, but several poor decisions such as what you describe make them about 70% what they easily could have been.

[@bonchbonch]

Peter Jackson couldn't help himself. I think Fellowship is the best of the original trilogy. It feels the most grounded and the grittiest of the three.

[@santos.l.halper1999]

in the 24 hour directors cut, this was essentially addressed in full and the audio was even more immersive! Especially when I watched it on my Imax setup at home.... Truly a masterpiece

[@oswinhull4203]

I totally agree with the points brought up in this video. People often give credit to Peter Jackson's series for being so true to the book but I would say there are a lot of significant changes from the book that are rarely for the better. It seems to me they could have cut a lot of the scenes of hobbits staring longingly at each other in favor of including more of the key story elements from the book.

[@Kamamura2]

Jackson had to dumbify the original text for the American audience. For example, the "Sauron's eye" in the book was a metaphor for his will - in the move it's a literal eye on a tower. Stupid, but accessible for broad audience.

[@gerome9874]

We get it dude, you read the book. Good for you

[@arbermagique]

What you're missing here is the concept of Sacrifice. Or at least you don't connect it with the principle that "men love and fight for what's behind them". They so much love their families that they give their life for them. This is the ultimate sacrifice. No death in this battle, is worthless. But every death of each men, was necessary.

[@yesss5773]

Good points. But as someone who never read the books I disagree with some of the critique. Having Gandalf nearly defeated by the witch-king is a good thing. Superman needs kryptonite to become mortal. Otherwise there are no stakes for the character. It was a very powerful thing for me watching Gandalf being able to steer of the Nazguls to save the men retreating to Minas Tirith, but later being defeated by the witch-king only to be saved by the charge of the Rohirrim. It was some of the best scenes in the entire trilogy.

[@jakeplayzrandomstuff4738]

Hot take: The scouring of the Shire should've been included in the movie.

[@zemlidrakona2915]

Yeah, this was one of the worst parts of the movie. I've actually never been a huge movie fan because of stuff like this. They also made Frodo look a lot weaker and dumber, although I always thought that Sam was actually the main hero, even in the books. Even so there was no reason to nerf Frodo so much.

[@urdnal]

What is this, Ghostbusters?? Why’d he make them green? Jackson has no sense of subtlety and it shows throughout the trilogy. Theoden looking rotting when under Wormtongue’s influence, the spotlight eyeball of Barad-dûr, Gorgoroth looking barely larger than a soccer pitch.

[@swartley]

"One of my favorite movies of all time!" .. "STONE COLD SEAN AUSTIN!"

[@JJNincorporated]

It too bothered me when the Witch King beat Gandalf, but not because of the power level system people seem to have assigned to Middle Earth (I.e, Maiar > Everything else). Let's not forget that Elves have slain Balrogs in the past, and even Sauron was defeated by a man.

[@PeterDB90]

Completely agree - I too felt like the army of the dead took away from the victory of men, but I had no idea that this wasn't in the book - rightly so.

[@spork861]

Honestly, if the entire job of the dead army in the books was to scare some people off of a boat then that is kind of a let down. Building up so much tension in finding the army of the dead, then making a deal with them, just for them to go "OOGA BOOGA IM A SCARY GHOST BOO" to some people on a boat is fucking lame. They could have just come up with some plan to set fire to the ships and render those reinforcements useless that way if the only goal was to stop the boats. Sure the emotional pay of you depicted from the books is more deserving and has more effort behind it, but it probably would have been a bit more of a let down for the movie. They movie would had had to cut out the entire army of the dead part were it that way, and why would they have had to cut it? Because of the exact reasons I just explained, it would have been this spooky build up of trying to find and confront the dead army JUST for them to do a little cheeky spook to the people on the boat, movie goers would have been quite pissed at that. That would have felt like SUCH a cheesy movie thing. Like some shit out of a kids movie, like "haha, we befriended these ghosts to say boo to the bad guys and it worked *smirks all smug like some pixar movie while crossing arms*". No thank you, I'd rather have the ghost army wipe the floor with the orks.

[@Smoke1987j]

So, they animated too many undead soldiers and you overlooked the alternative story being told; the idea that the unity of men can overcome any evil, is a fallacy, and sometimes you need an external force.

[@stevesherman1743]

“Men fight because they love what is behind them. Orcs fight because they hate what is in front of them. And they fear what is behind them.” Brilliant !

[@AFGuidesHD]

Not really because men also fear getting shot or shamed for not fighting.

[@joshgaston7839]

@@AFGuidesHD But men don't enlist because of fear, they enlist to protect what they love.

[@AFGuidesHD]

@@joshgaston7839 and until a few years ago, they enlisted because they were forced to, kinda like orcs.

[@joshgaston7839]

@@AFGuidesHD Not sure where you live but, no one in my country (USA) is forced to enlist..

[@AFGuidesHD]

@@joshgaston7839 which is why I said "until a few years ago". Conscription was a thing in the USA until about the late 70s. and don't think the US government wouldn't bring it back if they needed to.

[@FlymanMS]

So what you’re saying is they should’ve made Nazgul more like debuffing dark heroes instead of just unique air units and made the scenario not just a timed tower defence mission.

[@master_samwise]

LMAO yeah pretty much

[@floriL3636]

The soldiers of men should just have positioned themselves in the south-eastern entrance of the map so they could have attacked their enemies one after another instead of letting them walk and gather all before the City.

[@noleftturnunstoned]

I thought they did an ok job communicating the dread inspired.

[@vde5070]

@floriL3636 reference to BFME?

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

They should have evacuated the women and children to the upper floors days prior to the attack instead of on the literal night that the gates were breached.

[@JaredLB1990]

Dude, I’ve been saying this same thing for years. Jackson missed out on Aragorn’s arrival. It wasn’t just reinforcements, it was the return of the king. While the Witch King turned turned hope to despair, Aragorn turned despair into hope. It’s legit the one scene I tell people was messed up in the movie, and so much better in the book.

[@desmondd1984]

Gondor in general is handled pretty poorly. I know PJ thought it was too late to introduce new characters, but Beregond and Imrahil both humanize and legitimize Gondor as a real kingdom, and that's largely missing from the movies. You have Denethor and Faramir, and a bunch of terrified soldiers. Not much of a kingdom.

[@suilles]

@@desmondd1984but look at the hobbit then? the moment the dwarf king comes out and leads the army himself. that was also in the book in that way. what did people say? "oh wow 13 extra dwarfs added to the army then they win the battle" the same would of been said of the grey company. the casual viewer needed the big hero army to save the day. yes the movie is made for the fans but only the fans wont bring in enough money thats where the casual viewer come in. many many people watch the movie but never read the book or know that there is a bigger story. do you think the casual viewer understand what gandalf is? ofcoure not they know he is a wizard. but they dont know he is a demi god kind of being. casual people also dont really know how a kingdom is. they see a big city with alot of land around so thats what people believe the kingdom is. many people believe the metal armor can also be stabbed through.

[@desmondd1984]

@@suilles "casual viewer", "casual people", "many people" Is that what you think we are here? lol

[@suilles]

@desmondd1984 us? No. But there are many. I wish the whole book be in the movie but that be like 10-12 hour movie.

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

@@suilles A solution could be to inflate the numbers of the dunedain. If the company is larger it makes their charge into a massive army less disbelief-suspending and heightens the morale impact they could have. Another way would be to have the ghosts just be a regular fighting force with normal moving speed and not too great in numbers that acts like a timer on the side of the orcs. They're not magically fixing the fight for men but they're giving them a reason to hold on and buy some time in the hopes of rescue. That shift in morale makes orcs desperate and they start to cave, abandoning formations or fighting disorderly and turning the tide of battle in favour of Men. The problem of the goo is that it robs men of the chance to demonstrate what's their biggest strenght. Their hope and courage in the face of certain doom when led by righteous leadership. That chance is then given again in the battle in front of the black gate and that's probably why they cut Minas Tirith short. Every scene in a film must have a function and if it's function is served by another they get cut or modified. I think the point of the one we got is to show Aragorn is a man of his word and is not willing to take shortcuts to victory if it means breaking promises.

[@mid110300]

Impressive insights into a scene from a great movie. It's easy to overlook shortfalls from an overall outstanding work.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

Not that easy. It took me a long time to warm to the films. Far fewer heroes from the books had a chance to “show their quality“ in the films.

[@drzerogi]

Frankly, the green ghosts ruined the entire scene for me.

[@phenel]

While I can sympathise with your feelings toward the films, these adaptations are (mostly) faithful representations of the books. There are many modern adaptations of so many amazing pieces of work being trashed into the ground. They would be amazing if they had even half of the passion put into these 3 movies. I don't mean to say "Because these things are worse, your opinion is wrong." I just wish the fans of the books were more thankful for having something that was actually so good. You only need one example for my point (though there are many). The Wheel of Time is some of the worst TV I've ever watched, let alone how poorly it was adapted. Maybe just take a step back and be happy, it could have been so so so so so so so so much worse.

[@drzerogi]

@@phenel Yeah, I hear you. The moment is just a huge blemish in an otherwaise fantastic trilogy.

[@Frankje01]

@@drzerogi audiobook that uses the music and sound effects of the movies are the way to go for me