How many Pokemon beat Falkner without Optional Battles? - Episode 16

Minimum Battles is the ultimate challenge. But how many Pokemon can beat the first Gym of Gen 2 on Minimum Battles?
On my main channel @RBYPokemonChallenges , I have already completed this challenge with all 151 Pokemon on Gen 1, but Gen 2 presents a massively different challenge - sleep and Wrap were nerfed, there's no Gen 1 miss (1/256 glitch), and all the trainers have better AI. But Minimum Battles might just be possible with some effort and ingenuity.
Today's challengers:
Tauros,
Magikarp, Gyarados,
Lapras,
Ditto,
Eevee, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Flareon,
Porygon,
Espeon, Umbreon,
Phanpy, Dophan,
Porygon2,
Miltank

[@stevepierce227]

Hype to see the completion with Falkner. This is down the road, but when you get to Goldenrod there are 2 required battles in the underground that aren't required until the rocket section when you come back, but they could be some nice extra exp before Whitney and it gives you access to the coin case. Also, have you thought about return when you get there? You can pick up the TM and technically you could max out friendship by just walking, but in gen 2 that takes a ton of steps (there is also the haircut place in the underground after those 2 battles).

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah well take those underground fights in that section, grab the Quick Claw, and consider TMs. I am planning to use Return if it makes sense, though I'm not going to manipulate friendship too much there. Technically game corner TMs are also available at that point, though I'm not sure it's practical to get them. In general, I am going to add Return and/or Game Corner TMs as an absolute last resort.

[@jeffdeneum]

I can't believe you didn't try Magikarp with one or maybe even two splashes then into struggle, it's like you're not taking this seriously.... Just kidding! Great vid as usual!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I know, right. We all know Splash is 1/65536 to get a OHKO

[@parttimesaint3165]

I like this style of idea. Check every pokemon in a short segment to weed out the weakest ones and later on see which are the easiest pokemon to solo the game with.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Exactly. I find it really interesting to test them all out, weed them down to the best of the best, and find out how many can beat the game with these rules

[@aaron3537]

I feel like, with Flareon, if you went in with 1-2 sand attacks, you can get Pidgey to miss all his mud slaps and go in to Pidgeotto with full health and no accuracy drops and you'd win. It's not that crazy for Pidgey to miss 2-3 times in a row with the sand attacks

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I mean, I was testing exactly this sort of setup in my 50 attempts and was not getting it. Like I said with Quilava, the fight is not impossible by any means, it's just soooo inconsistent that it isn't worth the time and resets

[@nautgamingnautgaming9949]

​@GSCPokemonChallenges venasaur n quilava are worth reattempts Flareon pinsir n forretress n onix I would consider too but those are maybe

[@incredibleturnip5875]

I tried it on my own. If you hit 2 Sand Attacks on Pidgey and reset if it hits more than one Mud Slap, then start Pidgeotto with 2 Sand Attacks before Tackling, you can get through.

[@jussioman]

Jolteon and Flareon failing. Eevee: Throws some sand in the eye. Love the series. Game freak mustve designed Falkner like Brock to teach the new players about type coverage. Not that the original game gives one any of these Pokemon before the first gym but mud slap is pretty bad to face this early in the game.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Absolutely. It punished Cyndaquil and obvious counters like Geodude and the in-game trade Onix hard

[@thunderdan4058]

Cool setup . Very thorough .I’ll have to check out the other videos

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thank you! I am always working to improve, so if you have suggestions, drop a comment!

[@mathturtle37]

*Rushes to check Bulbapedia* If any of the channel members need ideas for egg moves, here are a few: Faint Attack Vulpix - can it win if accuracy doesn't matter Rock Slide Onix/Corsola - well at least it gets to rival 2s bayleaf now Metronome Chansey - mostly for the lols, you could give it present too but metronome is funnier There are definitely more but these are some I'd like to see. Most of these pokemon are pretty bad or don't have good egg moves (sorry Venusaur, petal dance or skull bash don't really help 🙁)

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I mean, Petal Dance with a bitter betty could be enough on Venusaur though...

[@XxCarroteenxX]

PHANPY THE 🐐 Predicted 12/16 Inital thoughts were Eevee and Porygon to drop the ball, but they made it, Phanpy section made me nervous!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I was not sure about Phanpy at all. Pory is 🐐

[@XxCarroteenxX]

@GSCPokemonChallenges Pory is indeed 🐐 didn't mean the disrespect to such a distinguished gentleman 🧐

[@philipmurphy2]

This has being a enjoyable challenge run

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thanks for being here Philip!

[@raptors11111]

Great video man. So sad to see Jolteon and Flareon fail. Was hoping Flareon's monster attack would be enough, but those damn Mud Slaps.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, we gave it a good effort, but it just wasn't working. He'll get through with enough resets, but it's .ore luck based than a single crit

[@Asthinus817]

Love all the videos and have been following for a while! I think the Espeon fight against Falkner might have actually been made a little more difficult than it needed to be. There were a couple fights where you just needed one more turn against the Pidgeotto, but you ended up taking an extra turn of damage from the Pidgey by using tail whip on it. But from the damage calculations, the tail whip wasn't actually helping against the Pidgey so you didn't have to take the damage from it. Might be worth a fight or two just to see if it would actually make a difference or not for the ease of the fight.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I was using the Tail Whip to minimize the turns that Tackle could miss there, because I also had fights where J lost due to one miss on the Pidgey. But your right, the number of turns to get through was not changing

[@mackowens7234]

I foresee Porygon2, Tauros, and Lapras putting in so much work!

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Aw yeah!

[@turbotreehouse9780]

Once you drop the accuracy it's going to roll those moves and if gust misses and tackle hits, the AI is going to select tackle

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

That might be true in some cases, but all of testing suggests it's not the case on Falkner. He is pure deciding based on which move does more damage

[@turbotreehouse9780]

That's so weird he hits tackle at all then. 🤔 Could it possibly have to do with a high roll on tackle vs a low roll on gust? Is 5 BP at level 8 enough of a discrepancy to make Falkner choose tackle? :l​@@GSCPokemonChallenges

[@MobileGamingChronicles]

I like this channel more than RBY, because gen 1 has been covered to death lol except for Pokemon Blue Kaizo 😅😅😅

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I have a Gen 1 channel too, but there is a ton of content and a lot of repetition in Gen 1 runs

[@irishrunner27]

i'm worried for umbreon on bugsy, but sand attack will hopefully make fury cutter not build up enough

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

That is likely the strat there.

[@prthedisaster]

Espeon should probably go against totodile rival since it gets bite and stuff imo

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Fair argument. I assume that later rival already have Ghastly line for super effective damage and at least Rival 2 is harder against Bayleef. I could be wrong though

[@Auron3991]

Before watching, I'm guessing Eevee to be close and Phanphy to fail. I don't think Eevee gets enough stats to straight out-muscle Pidgeotto and I seem to remember it not getting Quick Attack in time to close the gap. Phanphy is really weak compared to Donphan and combined with no STAB I think will be just too much.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Sounds reasonable, let's see!

[@richarddill692]

In Gen 2, Staryu was coded to learn Aurora Beam, Barrier, and Supersonic by breeding, despite being unable to breed with any Pokémon other than Ditto.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I would generally say it doesn't get egg moves because of that though it exists in the code.

[@richarddill692]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges That's fine, too. Just thought it was a funny bit of oversight that would be kinda cool to see get used (although, abused might be more fitting in this case).

[@17Master]

I predict 10 winners and 2 Struggle wins.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

🔥🔥🔥.

[@philipmurphy2]

Feels like it has being a while to see every Pokémon beat Falkner

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Sorry for the delay, but I'm back!

[@philipmurphy2]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges Still waiting for RBY Pokemon Challenges however

[@DoctorNovakaine]

Hate to say it, but I'm pretty sure Tauros fails to even get to Goldenrod. It has no answer for the Rival's Gastly. Struggle can hit, but with Gastly being the lead, it would have to Struggle through all three Pokémon. There's no way it can level enough even with optional battles to get to Pursuit, so I think the only way it can progress is by using breeding to get Pursuit in its starting moveset. Miltank won't have this problem because it gets Mud Slap. It'll do fine against most things. Morty with Curse will be the first problem, Chuck will be the second...those are the only two that I see being any real trouble. Gyarados has the same problem as Tauros. No way to deal with Gastly. I just don't see any Pokémon struggling through three Pokémon, it's hard enough to get through two. I still see people saying Flareon is the worst Eeveelution, though it seems more people put it 7th and give Glaceon the dishonorable honor. Conversion2 is going to be interesting.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, Gastly is a very interesting matchup on Rival 2 and could make him a true wall on some spots. The level curves also could become a major factor. We'll have to see what the struggle ranges are, considering Zubat and Gastly aren't terribly bulky and don't have massive HP, but Reflect from Bayleef could prove too much.

[@Uran10]

messed up at the end and put eevee in failed

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

This will be fixed. I automated the lists in the new overlay, so I am willing to bet. I didn't save after Falkner. Fortunately, it's not a tough thing to fix.

[@nautgamingnautgaming9949]

Venasaur n quilava absolutely deserve a second chance Maybe flareon pinsir forretress

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, no struggle strats in the first few episodes, so they at least deserve to test that out

[@nautgamingnautgaming9949]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges if quilava has ember maybe the burn might help since you fished for it in the past or a smokescreen into hard attack Flareon was ultra close in general and I have seen sketchier make it through Pinsir fish for crit range Forretress got unlucky with mudslap luck

[@Hushyluv]

Tauros only got tackle in gen 1. Had it gotten tail whip, it would have gotten past brock easier.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I mistook that. Tackle and Tail Whip would still have failed Brock, but it's perfectly fine hete

[@Hushyluv]

@GSCPokemonChallenges would fail on minimum battles, yes, but you wouldn't have to wait until lvl 15 to luck your way past him

[@135forte]

I'm not quickly seeing anything on Gen 2 AI (too much other AI talk and ROM hack stuff), but I know Stadium would 'test' it's rolls and pick based off those rolls. This sometimes caused it to go for a resisted move knowing it would get a crit, a status effect or the 'correct' move would just miss. I haven't heard of Gen 2 AI checking to that extent, but I believe it will roll for ranges. Scott'sThoughts talked about it in his Entei run, iirc, because it made certain levels suboptimal to face Falkner because of how the low level damage calculator made STAB Tackle overlap with Super Effective Mud Slap at specific Def stats.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Exactly this, as we saw with Houndour versus Houndoom, the difference in Defense stats changed Pidgey's strategy. But at least in the Falkner section, I cannot see any evidence that his move selection is changing based on accuracy

[@dragonslayerz2220]

Accuracy Strats in gen 2 are worse because accuracy stage changes are worse.

[@SvenSierra104]

I mean, he literally says that in this video.. or maybe it was the previous one, maybe I'm the fool

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I was testing accuracy strats against Pidgey, it just wasn't working within the attempts that I took. Again, this one is not impossible, just very very luck based

[@ILeikNormalTypes]

Noticed you put Eevee in the Fail column by mistake :)

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

This has been automated now in the new overlay, so I have an idea of what happened. I'll get it fixed.

[@135forte]

Your talk about luck makes me wonder if save states might be a useful tool to demonstrate the viability (or lack there of) of some of the theoretical passes.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I could mess with it later, but generally I am going to avoid that for now. Sounds like something to talk about on a full-game challenge with one of them.

[@Spudmay]

YEEEEEESAASSSSS LETS GOOOOO

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Let's go!!!!!

[@Spudmay]

@@GSCPokemonChallenges It takes me days to watch these vids lol. Best bg/driving stuff

[@chefgrizz6284]

Bullying another gym leader. 10/10

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thank you!!!

[@MobileGamingChronicles]

If you used rare candies cheats to level up the Pokemon, most would beat Falkner without optional battles, but where's the fun in that? It's definitely nice to see minimum battles on Pokemon that can pull it off without cheats.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

For sure. This is the fundamental question. What beats Falkner without cheats, and therefore how tough is Falkner really

[@TheAnalyticalEngine]

Ditto is one of the pokemon of all time Indeed, it is _all_ of the pokemon of all time :p

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Ditto that!

[@brolsroyceyt2362]

Good morning everyone hope you all have a great day 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 Miltank still gives me PTSD to this day 😅😅

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Me too 😂

[@ToxicCross1]

I’ve been struggling to become a channel member, how does one do it, I can’t see the option

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

There should be a join button below the video. it can depend on your KZbin settings and country, but it's there. I will also add a like to join in the description

[@Red-yt2dk]

In Pimanrules' ELO World Crystal edition, he goes over all of the AI decision routines and shows what ones each trainer uses. Watching that might answer your questions about how accuracy influences move selection :) Also, it feels like the audio is desynced from the webcam? Also it's clearly pronounced FanFy, cause of Mumfy.

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Will check into that. Not sure about webcam sync issues, likely has to do with the Nvidia Broadcast software interaction with my overlay .. I'll check into it.

[@Red-yt2dk]

@GSCPokemonChallenges Obviously only if you agree that it seems unsynced or that it's distracting 😅 Its quite noticeable at 1:12:55

[@delciv5854]

Bump for algorithm

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

It's super effective!

[@patrickvogelaar7732]

FYI you put eevee in the fail section

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Yeah, I'll get that fixed. The new overlay automatically puts eat Pokemon in the fail column when I start the run, and then updates them to Struggle or Pass after finishing Falkner. I likely changed my file to the next Pokemon before the system got its update flag, so I'll check it and fix it

[@patrickvogelaar7732]

Could always happen ofcourse! Btw really cool that you always seem to reply to your messages!

[@thjofurliute6264]

Why is Poliwag still not in the Struggle-tier?

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

I may have made a mistake. I will go back and update!

[@thjofurliute6264]

@@GSCPokemonChallengesI just caught up with these videos and when you did Horsea, I thought it had the same moveset as Poliweg. I am sorry if my comment sounded harsh, I realy like your methodology and wanted it to stay accurate.

[@stardf29]

SPOILER for quick recaps... ... ... Tauros: Literally bulldozes the gym even with just STAB Tackle thanks to strong stats. PASS Miltank: See Tauros, except it's... cowdozing? PASS Gyarados: Thrashes its way through the gym with ease. PASS Magikarp: LOL, what did you expect. FAIL Lapras: Based on damage numbers, probably didn't even need Sing or Growl strats against Spearow. Great defensive stats and STAB Water Gun easily Super Soakers the birds. PASS Ditto: Hilariously, wins against Spearow with Transform with some crit luck. Struggle strats needed against Youngster Mikey and the GodRod, but Falkner's just too much for either Transform or Struggle. FAIL Vaporeon: All the Eeveelutions only have Tackle and Tail Whip up to Falkner, when they get Sand Attack. Tail Whip plus a crit gets past Spearow, and then uses Sand-Attack to help get past Pidgeotto. PASS Jolteon: Gets past Spearow easily, but actually needs a crit to get past GodRod, but its Attack is too weak and needs too much accuracy luck to deal with Falkner. FAIL Flareon: Needs a crit to get past Spearow. Requires too much luck dealing with Pidgey's mud-slaps and Sand-Attacking the Pidgeotto. Maybe the strat is to Sand-Attack the Pidgey to make it miss Mud-Slaps? FAIL Espeon: Needs a combination of Tail Whip and a crit to get past both Spearow and the GodRod. Needs a lot of accuracy-reducing luck to beat Pidgeotto. PASS Umbreon: Needs a crit to get past Spearow. Solid defenses allows Umbreon to get past Falkner with just Tackle. PASS Eevee: Gets past Spearow with good ranges on STAB Tackle. Sand-Attack once again gets through Pidgeotto. PASS Porygon2: Conversion2 is an interesting option to gain a type resistant to Spearow's Peck, but Falkner's Mud-Slap messes with that strategy. Thankfully, STAB Tackle is more than enough at that point. PASS Porygon: Same as Porygon2 but needs a crit against Pidgeotto. PASS Donphan: High Attack and Defense and Horn Attack easily rolls over the gym. PASS Phanpy: Needs 3 Growls an a crit to get past Spearow, and even the GodRod requires some luck with Tackle misses. Needs Struggle to have the damage output to beat Falkner, and even that requires a Tackle miss and a crit. STRUGGLE Final Results: PASS: 11 STRUGGLE: 1 FAIL: 4

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

Thank you for the nice recap!

[@adventureoflinkmk2]

You're still not RBY Pokémon Challenges!!!

[@SvenSierra104]

This is a joke, right?

[@GSCPokemonChallenges]

That RBY guy needs to get a video out soon, we:re overtaking him 😂

[@adventureoflinkmk2]

@@SvenSierra104 yes. I forgot exactly what video it was but Teo started it 😂 Edit... it was the eevee special moves live stream video on rby pokemon challenges