How Melee Ganondorf Works (and how Project M fixed him)

#ganondorf #smash #Junebug
This video is an introductory guide to Melee and Project M Ganondorf! We go over his neutral, punish, and offstage games in Melee and the tweaks Project M made to make him more viable. Ganondorf is a very cool character, and balancing him to feel true to himself and his aesthetic is hard. With a lot of manhours, Slippi Unranked, and coffee, we made this video to show you why Ganon is one of my favorite Smash characters of all time.
(00:00): Introduction
(00:32): Melee Neutral
(05:02): A New Challenger Approaches?...
(06:31): Melee Punish
(10:36): Melee Offstage
(12:16): Kage's Thoughts on Ganon
(12:27): Project M General Changes
(14:55): Project M Neutral, Punish, Offstage
(17:50): Conclusion
Links:
Project M Ganondorf Wiki:
www.ssbwiki.com/Ganondorf_(PM)\
Chaingrabbing Guide:
smashboards.com/threads/the-g...
EDIT:
The reason for Ganon's bair waveland is due to IASA frames being cancellable by airdodge, not an extra frame in the air.
I forgot to include them but shoutouts to the Melee and PM communitys for developing the metas for this character, the PMDT and P+ dev team for creating a wonderful Ganon and Malachi for also helping out with the P+ Ganon footage in this video. :)
Sources:
VGBootcamp
The Balcony
n0ne
MIOM
The Whitest Kids You Know
ssbwiki.com
Standard Toaster
SuperDoodleMan
Magus420
Paragon
Tourneylocator
Music:
Gerudo Valley - Ocarina of Time
Boss Phase I - Ocarina of Time
Song of Storms - Ocarina of Time
Boss Battle - Majora's Mask
Molduga Theme - Breath of The Wild
Demise Theme - Skyward Sword
Gerudo Valley - Zelda and Chill
Video Editing by Z: / zactrone
Script Editing by Apollo Ali: / rbdapolloali
Play P+: projectplusgame.com/
Support me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/arjunebug?fan...
Subscribe: kzbin.info...
Follow my Twitterz: / arjunebug

[@AllstonMelee]

Great video!!!

[@arJunebugSmash]

[@KristaTheWolf]

most important rule of thumb when playing against ganon is that between the start to the end of the match it is GAURENTEED there will be one randy, completely fuckin out of the ass down b waiting to be whipped out at any moment. I dedicate the entire match to waiting for it, I will not be clowned. not today, good sir.

[@RPGgrenade]

damn. You figured us out.

[@schmoopDJ]

I love baiting it out of the corner lmao

[@Matthew.Morcos]

Only 1 though. Then after that its on cool down for the rest of the game

[@Gillian_FFXIV]

@@Matthew.Morcos Literally this LMFAO

[@pubcle]

@@Matthew.Morcos Depends if it's Melee or P+. If it's P+ you can guarantee a few more.

[@AwfullyFawfully]

Just wanted to say that PM Ganon is the most fun I’ve ever had with a Smash character, all they had to do was give him a floating mechanic to feel satisfying to control. Bless PM

[@Malurth]

really wish they'd let you buffer float out of down-B tho. it seems his best recovery sequence is down-B -> float -> jump -> up-B, but as far as I can tell the optimal float input is frame-perfect since pressing it too early will eat the float input and pressing it late will cause you to fall longer after the down-B. and you can't mash it out either cuz then he'll just do the reflect. that one issue always bothers the hell out of me whenever I play him.

[@weebs1051]

@@Malurth sounds like something thats more than humanely possible doe

[@spacedoutcowboy5211]

​@@Malurth😂😂😮😂❤❤❤❤ kcn0i0 k. K Z

[@Silvalfo]

Agreed, PM Ganon is the most fun character not only in Smash, but in the entirety of fighting games i've played

[@rkraccoons]

Man, Junebug is so talented AND handsome

[@mikey-hm7dt]

TRUTH

[@nukacm]

And talented

[@MrMentos876]

Thank you Junebug, very cool!

[@Beastmd]

You forgot beautiful 😴

[@ARMTOAST]

man, this reminds me of that time when RK beat Wizzrobe.

[@OniiChanPls]

Ganon's up smash is really special. There's no other up smash in the series that's got a subscribe button attached to it

[@Silvalfo]

ngl using it charged to techchase from below a platform and killing an opponent with a huge move that deals upwards of 25% is EXTREMELY satisfying

[@pikachutobal]

I played Ganon over like 7 years and I feel this video summarizes the character perfectly who cares about results or viability, dealing mental damage with style is eternal

[@pubcle]

Forever the King of Disrespect, he'll always have a special place in my heart.

[@BackOff_xd]

​@@pubcledeal brain damage.

[@efisiospiga6540]

Coming from Ultimate I really appreciate these videos explaining how Melee and PM characters work.

[@goGothitaLOL]

Same

[@Cow5]

This might be the best primer on melee ganon ever made

[@McDunzo]

nice job posting this a day after the gerudo king ganon only tournament

[@arJunebugSmash]

LMAO yeah the timing really worked out for us, hopefully people are motivated to learn about ganon :)

[@rehydratedganondorf4244]

Nice pfp

[@SSB_Seal]

I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters. My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages. If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B). Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then. Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity. The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters. I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk. Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf. Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

[@SSB_Seal]

(Sorry I had to LOL, good video tho)

[@Chickenman161]

omg lol u beat me to it

[@bb97979]

I love stumbling upon this from time to time.

[@EnergyBurst2]

2 thing come to mine that i want to say. 1. is this a copypasta? 2. if no, was this talking about Melee ganon or PM/P+ ganon, since both are mentioned in this video?

[@sheridan5175]

I was about to call this out, but it's a copy from someone else. Did someone actually unironically say that!

[@MegaStunfiskandHat]

"How Good is Ganon actually?" Does this mean we're gonna get some False Swipe Gaming style vids about how good smash characters were through the series?

[@sheridan5175]

FSG actually has a smash series, but he hasn't touched it in a while

[@sephikong8323]

@@sheridan5175 They were pretty cool to watch as well. Sad (but that's just like the competitive history of each types that died like 3 years ago after a single video)

[@ashleyunderscorebl]

pm ganon side b in the air is like the sickest move in smash aside from pm bowser air throw down tbh

[@iiequinox8044]

PM just makes so many moves so satisfying to land. dragging someone to the blast zone as ganondorf is so fun after a down air conversion

[@LegendaryMythril]

"can you make a heavy character good without breaking them?" ultimate bowser is there to say "yes"

[@tyjoy6111]

ultimid

[@BackOff_xd]

​@@tyjoy6111top tiers?, yeah, sort of.

[@yeehaw8089]

ultimate bowser is such a shit designed character though lol

[@Butterfree_hater]

3 yrs late but incin might actually be a better example now that hes considered decent lol

[@SamiJ1508]

Bowser is the middle of the tier list in ult. Same as Ganon in melee

[@lf3boss]

Your music choice was on point, as was the recapping of each section. Really well done! Can’t wait for your next upload, imma go play some Ganon

[@yap_temple]

ive been waiting for this video since the roy one and im so happy

[@yap_temple]

i would love to see one of these for mewtwo

[@ronnispolski]

This was seriously so great. Thorough, funny, and really well produced. Thank you, I enjoyed every second of it!

[@aqgpandemic5406]

Nice I’d love to see a video like this on PM vs Melee Ness

[@TyBarros_]

Bro I wish there was videos like this for every character, great job 🙏

[@drgraphix2912]

Fantastic video man, the editing is superb and the flow of info was well paced and delivered

[@atWisely]

Good stuff dude, big fan of this series

[@MisprintMedia]

Damn this one is really clean, good shit dude. These have been getting better and better.

[@TrueYankeeFan]

Dude this content is so good. Essentially a definitive character overview in two different games.

[@FunctionGermany]

YOOO i LOVE this video!!! also sick editing!! so educational and yet very entertaining

[@theaGeneric]

Nice audio, seems like quality analog input using an analog mixer 🙌🏼

[@e50013]

fr sounds so crisp

[@arJunebugSmash]

yeah we labbed a few improvements lol

[@oceanwaves83]

3:40 "17% is nothing to scoff at" As the move does 18% lol

[@pubcle]

It does 17%, rounded, as there's a decimal point of percentage in every smash game that wasn't displayed until Smash Ultimate.

[@johnleecooper8520]

amazing vid. just wanna mention, ganons new uptilt is actually a crazy useful move! its one of his fastest grounded options and can break cc and kill or setup edgeguards very early. its a good option out of cc too. its possible but difficult to sdi out of getting hit by the second hit, the reelback on it can dodge a lot of attacks that would have hit a standing ganon, and it covers in front and behind him.

[@bb97979]

Junebug is so handsome AND talented, man!

[@matthewsachs6867]

Absolutely love this content, keep up the amazing work!

[@JellyBlockLP]

Great video man you've got a great eye for analysis

[@melee9183]

You should def make more of these I love em

[@static2655]

One of the best character analysis videos I have ever seen. Well done

[@Shamii]

Just want to say it really feels like you've been hitting your stride with these videos, June. Great stuff and keep it up!

[@mariojordan9543]

Your channel is really cool. Ganon has always been one of my prefer characters to watch and play. As u said, he might have some huges weaknesses, but it feels so good when it all connects with the reads and the methodical spacing and pressure.

[@_sah_dude]

Excellent video, fire content

[@badbojcc]

love this series - really informative!

[@aidanmcconnell5638]

I really like that you linked info on chain grab percents. In general there's a great balance of useful info without getting too nitty gritty!

[@raghavpatel720]

I like these types of analysis videos, the characters that I’m most interested in knowing about are Zelda and Game and Watch going from melee to pm. I’d play the game everyday if it got rollback but I can’t imagine how much harder it would be than slippi melee. Great video June! Love to see more of these in the future.

[@Silvalfo]

there are the guys in brawlback trying to make rollback for brawl and its mods i haven't caught up with their progress tho, but they were going for it

[@JohnDoe-ju7wi]

Wouldn’t be a melee vid about Ganondorf without n0ne making a cameo

[@AncientPancakes]

I think you have a great voice and speaking style. I'd enjoy seeing more of these.

[@e77gma]

Been waiting for another one of these.

[@Twisted_Logic]

I'd love to see you cover Bowser this same way

[@joe564338]

You can still do warlock punch, reversable up to 6 times. Just side taunt and press b.

[@M00P35]

Why and how are your vids such high quality lmao good stuff and please keep it up!

[@RedFoxLevel101]

The question of “can you make a heavy character balanced without fundamanetally break them” isn’t really much of a question. Rivals of aether has 4 heavies and you can argue that 2 of them are “fundamentally broken” but the other 2 especially kragg are interesting and balanced.

[@XVINutkabob]

Kragg’s like a heavy projectile character with a good recovery Snak girl has a meter management gimmick that has a unique combo game Fuck silvannos Polar bear has ice and shit to act as armor and a movement tool

[@mattzr1550]

Elli isn't really a heavyweight, she has terrible survivability and good mobility, she is definitely balanced well though. I think the main thing that makes kragg work is being faster and having fast and disjointed options that beat basically everything

[@RedFoxLevel101]

@@mattzr1550 objectively elli is a heavyweight. She has .9 knockback adjustment which is the Same as Kragg and etalus. She feels lighter because her fall acceleration is lower making her die sooner off the top then shovel knight. This is offset by her air friction making her the heaviest character in the game off the sides.

[@captainmega6310]

Kragg is interesting... And the worse of the heavyweights

[@RedFoxLevel101]

@@captainmega6310 Not really. Maybe you could argue that from a design standpoint, but from a balance standpoint Kragg is better than Sylvanos. Character power in rivals is also kind of a meme because every character is so close.

[@dweebdj]

great content as usual, love it

[@lilyv.494]

This video was great, I love how it deconstructs the nuances of the character's design in an accessible way without forgoing the depth needed to be able to actually play the character competently. There was one bit that seemed off to me though - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason Ganon is able to waveland out of bair in PM but not melee is because PM allows you to airdodge out of IASA frames, not because of an extra frame of airtime?

[@arJunebugSmash]

I think you are correct! I'll add that to the description

[@freddiesimmons1394]

Damage on down b is 18 specifically so he can go through mario fireballs. You're welcome, lol

[@Sky-pt9dq]

Glad to see you back to making the QUALITY smash content. Much love to all Gannon mains out there!

[@vvlaze]

Would absolutely love to see more of these. Not super familiar with PM and seeing the design decisions they made and how it compares to Melee is a real treat.

[@shiina4861]

Great vid :) keep up the awesome content

[@GIJew625]

Entertaining and informative, in addition to talented and handsome. Great job to you and everyone who worked on this video.

[@weebs1051]

I love Ganondorf-so this guide/overview helped me so much man. Thanks :3

[@arJunebugSmash]

Glad I could help!

[@alexanderespinoza]

This entire video is fucking awesome. Also to me it seems like just the addition of a peach float as neutral b would do a lot for melee gannon because it creates mixups in mixups that make it harder for anyone to read. Goddamn it I love melee Gannon.

[@rahmysalman8741]

Mid level ganon doesn’t hit different, mid level ganon just is different. Mid level ganon is WEIRD.

[@CubeCF]

I actually had a hard time understanding that quote, did Junebug mean mid level gameplay as in player skill levels? Or something to do with neutral?

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@CubeCF player lever i guess

[@gravityvertigo13579]

This series is one of my favorite things on KZbin

[@multifffuuu]

glad seeing dunkey play melee again

[@MikeDaddyMCS]

PM Ganondorf just makes me happy

[@RiahGreen]

These videos are basically just a guide on how to play characters in *TWO* games at once. Nice!

[@Keys60_]

it wouldn't hurt to mention some pm moves/animations were taken from brawl other than that, amazing vid

[@EliTheGleason]

New smash analysis channel? That's a subscribin

[@TheLamphinator]

Had to leave a like for the sick content

[@25_Ciel]

Another great video June :)

[@GregInTechnicolor]

Thanks for making this man. I mained Ganon in PM 3.6 and it got me my first ever spot in a PR in my state. Now everyone plays Ganon and I dont feel as unique anymore tho.

[@autumnshinespark]

Been away from Smash awhile but I really miss Melee Ganondorf, he's so much fun to play as. Also had to replay 5x that reverse wavedash into double uair and still making it back :o

[@Avinkwep]

God the whole melee community on KZbin makes nothing but top tier content

[@hypersnake7904]

Ganons down b is useful for catching horizontal recoveries, like the spacie’s side specials

[@dark2koneko]

Thanks, I learned some stuff to do with ganon.

[@Sithilnis]

Your videos are so good. :D

[@RokOD]

Great vid :)

[@heyitsmort7744]

Love these videos June!!

[@GardenNomme]

This makes me really want to learn gannon

[@LazyLee]

Good video beard man!

[@Isaac-ym8kq]

love your content!!

[@mr10acity54]

I'd love to see one of these for Bowser

[@DarkAngelx72]

Wake up honey, new Junebug video

[@robdillenger4763]

Man have there been some great Ganon/Dorf themes in Zelda. OOT (Cutscene/organ Dorf, Gannondorf, and Final-form Ganon), Twilight Princess (all 4 phases but especially the finale. 2nd phase where you fight him as a wolf is very unique and primal, it's perfect for a beast vs beast fight), OMG and Wind Waker... Not to mention the other 1/2 of Zelda games who have Majora, Veran, Zant, Ghiriham ETC as their main real villain, who all have their own kickass themes. Like Giriham omg it's almost melodramatic and silly, but there's just enough theat to give you the heebie jeebies. But in BotW all we get is NOISE. And for Zelda Villian music we get Molgera's theme, and Molgera was an early obstacle little narrative meaning, unlike the giant bird... I think a few "standard" boss tracks from misc. games... and Ganon's BotW theme, which is always played when fighting the OOT version of him. And I love BotW, but ganon's "theme" in it (which only plays when you're fighting him because the entire game he's just chillin, waiting for you to farm hearts and items and 1000 baked apples. He's not wrecking your shit or deliberately murdering anyone. All the champions and Zelda are all still alive in some form, good work idiot. Non-threat waiting to get slaughtered) sucks. It sucks, really listen to it and compare to any other Ganon/dorf theme. it has no nuance, it's not sinister, it's not eerie, it's not calcuted. it's just noise. DUN DUNNNN DUNN DUNNN DUNNNNNNN. Oh and he's fun in melee and even ult, you don't need to land many hits to KO.

[@Tmathh]

this video is way better then i thought

[@lemguins7031]

Seeing a Peach vs Ganon clip when you mentioned circle camping I got PTSD.

[@NAFEDUDE]

Awesome video, but I think the video is framed in a way that suggests P+ added Flame Choke when that was just a Vanilla Brawl change.

[@OniiChanPls]

Junebig is severely underrated as a content creator. 5k likes? My man deserves at least 10 times more.

[@JoseRivera-jq3rp]

Great video! Would have wanted tips on what to do in neutral as a floaty. It seems like the advice was "be faster than ganon" but Peach is a slow girl on the ground and floating into eating his arials makes me sad

[@TDot_SSB]

Haven’t played melee Ganon in a long time but finding out he has float in p+ made me wanna play that super bad.

[@joechang3020]

Wow I sure wish I had watched this video before playing with this talented and handsome fellow

[@charlie3253]

subbed!

[@djcarlo]

So well made!

[@arJunebugSmash]

Thank you so much!

[@sdw-hv5ko]

Allston Melee cameo pog

[@corvax8644]

I LOVE THIS SERIES

[@nate5490]

I love ganon and I love this video so therefore i shall sub

[@farazjamil6687]

Good video with a good title

[@arJunebugSmash]

I now think about titles a little more thanks to you

[@AdmiralA]

love this, love you, love ganon

[@Thehijosh]

Damn, it looks like Ultimate took a lot of PM Ganon.

[@raghavpatel720]

But he don’t got float

[@littlemisseevee2309]

ulti falcon has pm ganon fsmash

[@goGothitaLOL]

I would've kill for Dead Man's Volley over Warlock Punch And most of the other changes PM brought to the table

[@Ghaust8546]

Yo im loving this serie

[@sagacious03]

Neat analysis! I'm sad to say I didn't understand some of the terminology used in it. Still, thank you for uploading!

[@arJunebugSmash]

What terms did you have trouble with? I can try and define them for ya

[@sagacious03]

@@arJunebugSmash Oh wait, Rewatching with subtitles, I noticed the subtitles explained the acronnyms. I was confused about CC, ASDI & NIL, I think?

[@arJunebugSmash]

@@sagacious03 haha yeah, i'm glad the subtitles helped. yeah CC = Crouch Cancel, ASDI = Automatic Smash DI, and NIL = No-Impact Land.

[@Hugo_Prolovski]

allston + junebug

[@ragin6115]

My would like to say rival and friend who introduced me to PM shits on me with Ganon. And i love every second

[@bloodydoll5897]

some captions feed back!! its generally best to try and make both lines of a captions similar width (can be done with a shift enter input in the youtube studio editor), whie also trying to maintains a similar width as the rest of the captions, It's also very goo to try and avoid making a single line or caption too long, as it can be overwhelming to read and its generally worth displaying a new set of captions or moving some text to a new line if it means the viewer will be able to read them more comfortably, , provided it makes sense and with respect to the previous point. some general rules for doing that, is to avoid using conjunction words like [and, for, or] at the end of a line or caption, and keep things like names and titles and related concepts on the same line as best as possible (less important than the first point but improves flow as well), and try to not end a sentence in the middle of a line unless its very short and never ever go over three lines unless the third provides additional infomation beyond just the sentence or something

[@arJunebugSmash]

This is actually very helpful, thank you; my first time trying captions haha

[@skatinsam2004]

Awesome video june! You are the Michio Kaku of smash bros😄

[@arJunebugSmash]

LOL ty

[@psdjklgfuiob]

whats the song at 5:00? doesnt sound like any of the songs in the desc

[@arJunebugSmash]

Yeah my mistake it's Song of Storms from Ocarina of Time

[@Ryan-vh4pd]

This channel deserves more views. Long live Melee.

[@Sethlon]

Shoutouts to Megabus